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[News] Hyperion Complete Quake 2 portANN.lu
Posted on 10-Oct-2002 08:16 GMT by Rik Sweeney163 comments
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From Amiga.org and Amigart:

Hyperion Entertainment is pleased to announce the completion of its highly optimised Quake 2 port for the Amiga.

Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 1 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 10-Oct-2002 06:45 GMT
"A bundle containing the full PC version and a separate CD with the Amiga executable, the Quake 2 installer, GUI and over 600 MB of (compressed) extras such as (nearly 40!) Quake 2 mods , levels and models, will be available shortly from your local dealer."
I already have a copy of Quake 2. Could I just get the 2nd CD instead?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 2 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 10-Oct-2002 07:25 GMT
I've got load of unused x86 HW lying around.
What kind of machine is needed for a network game playing server?
(486/80Mhz/32MB/500MB? P1/133Mhz/128MB/500MB?)
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 3 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 07:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Rik Sweeney):
You can order the GPLed sourcecode from Hyperion at cost (after the actual release of course), not the entire cd.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 4 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Oct-2002 07:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
Actually, they are not forced to sell you only the Amiga binary. The GPL demands that you make availabe the sources together with the binary, that's all. That also means that once one buys the whole pack, (s)he has all the rights to redistribute the sources for free.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 5 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by S on 10-Oct-2002 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Rik Sweeney):
Presumably someone will put the binary up on Aminet. That would be the nice thing to do, but I suppose Hyperion wants a chance to make some money after porting it.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 6 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mad-Matt on 10-Oct-2002 08:15 GMT
Whats all the fuss being made about the source for ?
since its unlickely youll be able to do alot with it anyway since you would have uses the Origional source and done ya own ports allready.
Also im pretty sure the way in which it was ported would make it impossable to simply just compile the source on ya own sys anyway. Would need specific hyperion code that they dont have to supply :)
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 7 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Buck Rogers on 10-Oct-2002 08:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (S):
Who cares?? You can always download the whole ripped iso-image from your favourite warez board, install it on your hd and then delete everything except the executable, can't you??
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 8 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 10-Oct-2002 08:27 GMT
You know, I doubt we're paying for the executable and the mods, skins etc., rather the cost of pooling all the resources together, which would amount to probably nothing.
The real cost will be from the GUI, they'll charge a fortune for it ;)
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 9 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 08:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Mad-Matt):
> Also im pretty sure the way in which it was ported would make it
> impossable to simply just compile the source on ya own sys anyway.
> Would need specific hyperion code that they dont have to supply :)
Wrong. That would break the GPL license big time.
There's no suggestion that would be the case anyway. Hyperion have simply used the letter of the GPL to justify forcing anyone who wants the source to go through the most awkward and expensive procedure before getting it, that's all.
At best, it's a delaying tactic, because anyone who gets the binary and source from them can then post both to Aminet and have done with it. It would have been a lot more in the spirit of the GPL to include the source on the same CD as the binary and to make it available for download themselves, as well as making the source CD available on request (we don't know if it will be a CD, it might be high-density Amiga floppies, just to be awkward).
What disappoints me is the way Hyperion are portraying the option they have chosen as the ONLY way to comply with the GPL, when in reality the have chosen to supply only the MINIMUM REQUIREMENT for compliance, which is not the same thing.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 10 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mad-Matt on 10-Oct-2002 08:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
but what isnt under gpl is the Quake2 engine they paid for in order to completely port Heretic2. Im pretty sure code they already ported would have been used for the bassis of the Quake2 convertion. This of course wouldnt have been under gpl.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 11 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 08:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Mad-Matt):
> but what isnt under gpl is the Quake2 engine they paid for in order to
> completely port Heretic2. Im pretty sure code they already ported would
> have been used for the bassis of the Quake2 convertion. This of course
> wouldnt have been under gpl.
It doesn't matter. They can't mix GPL and non-GPL code in the same product except under a few explicit conditions (which are described in the GPL). The scenario you describe above doesn't match any of those conditions, so if they mixed older code with the new GPL source to make Quake2, they still have to release the lot under the GPL.
Don't people who comment on the GPL ever read it?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 12 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mad-Matt on 10-Oct-2002 09:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Bill Hoggett):
id be very suprised if you could look me in the eye and tell me youve read the entire licence aggrement, top to bottom and understood it ;)
Regardless. Hyperion have issued how its all gonna be distrobuted and youll either like it or lump it. The interpretation of the aggrement differes from person to person it seems.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 13 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Menthos on 10-Oct-2002 09:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Mad-Matt):
Well, I'm just glad it will be released and I have preordered it from my local dealer GGS-Data.
/Menthos
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 14 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mad-Matt on 10-Oct-2002 09:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Menthos):
I hope to see it at upcomming UK Amigashow
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 15 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Oct-2002 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
>What disappoints me is the way Hyperion are portraying the option they have chosen >as the ONLY way to comply with the GPL, when in reality the have chosen to supply >only the MINIMUM REQUIREMENT for compliance, which is not the same thing.
Correction Bill: this IS the only way to comply with the GPL according to the GPL FAQ itself.
Offering the source-code for download, including it on the CD etc. are not sufficient to comply with the GPL.
If you consider this a delaying tactic, complain to the FSF.
Taken from the GPL FAQ:
"I want to distribute binaries without accompanying sources. Can I provide source code by FTP instead of by mail order?
You're supposed to provide the source code by mail-order on a physical medium, if someone orders it. You are welcome to offer people a way to copy the corresponding source code by FTP, in addition to the mail-order option, but FTP access to the source is not sufficient to satisfy section 3 of the GPL.
(...)
If the FTP access is convenient enough, perhaps no one will choose to mail-order a copy. If so, you will never have to ship one. But you cannot assume that."
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 16 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Oct-2002 09:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Bill Hoggett):
Believe me, the vast majority of people who comment on the GPL don't understand it.
And it has to be said that it is quite convoluted and not easy to grasp.
I doubt say a BSD license would generate the same confusion.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 17 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C on 10-Oct-2002 09:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Mad-Matt):
What do you mean hope. It Will be there!!!
(and more!)
Mikey C
World of Amiga Southeast
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 18 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 09:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Mad-Matt):
> id be very suprised if you could look me in the eye and tell me youve
> read the entire licence aggrement, top to bottom and understood it ;)
I've read the parts I comment on, and yes, I believe I understood them.
> Regardless. Hyperion have issued how its all gonna be distrobuted and
> youll either like it or lump it.
True. Read comment 9 again. I think what I said was coherent enough for everyone to understand.
> The interpretation of the aggrement differes from person to person it seems.
Not this part. From the GPL, under the heading of "GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE, TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION", we find the following:
" 2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:
a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices
stating that you changed the files and the date of any change.
b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License.
c) <snipped as irrelevant here>
These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If
identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program,
and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in
themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those
sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you
distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based
on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of
this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the
entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it."
Read clause (b) again carefully, paying special attention to the phrase "as a whole". Then read the last paragraph again regarding distribution. It's very clear indeed, and no amount of misinterpretation will make the scenario you described in comment 10 any more possible.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 19 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 10-Oct-2002 09:35 GMT
I really need to know something:
Why the hell are so many people interested in the source? No offense to anyone out there but I can't really see you wanting to roll your own version because you'd have done it by now. Do people here want it just for the sake of having it?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 20 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 10-Oct-2002 09:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mikey C):
And more..? :-)
Hope you guys will do some good pictures from the show, sounds very promising.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 21 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 10-Oct-2002 09:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
Hi!
Bill Hoggett: What do you want ? We *are* fully complying to the GPL.
Making the Source-Code available on CD on request is fully legal. There is
nothing murky about it, and it is fully compliant to the GPL.
And BTW: There is no such beast as "the spirit of a contract". There are
regulations of a contract. If you want a licence which is more strict than
the GPL you have to define a new licence.
There are three options (3a,3b,3c) for distributing the source-code of
a program under GPL. This is 3b:
"
Accompany it with the written offer, valid for at least three years,
to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of
physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code...
"
Steffen Haeuser
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 22 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 10-Oct-2002 09:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Rik Sweeney):
>I really need to know something:
>
>Why the hell are so many people interested in the source?
>No offense to anyone out there but I can't really see you
>wanting to roll your own version because you'd have done
>it by now. Do people here want it just for the sake of having
>it?
Well, it's just another opportunity for MOS'ers to have a dig at Hyperion, rather than a genuine desire to have the sourcecode.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 23 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 09:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> Correction Bill: this IS the only way to comply with the GPL according to
> the GPL FAQ itself.
No it is NOT. It is a minimum requirement. You must provide the source on a physical medium at cost IF IT IS REQUESTED of you to do so. That is a long way from claiming that the GPL forces you to distribute the source on a physical medium on request and prevents you destributing it any other way at the same time.
You may be a lawyer, but I'm not stupid. YES, you MUST make the source available in the manner you are doing. That is a requirement. NO, you are not PREVENTED from also using other means of distribution. The use of the word "only" in your explanations implies that you are not allowed to distribute electronically, for instance, or include the source with the binary. This is complete bullshit. You can distribute both source an bonary via any medium, as long as you also offer THE OPTION of people requesting it directly from you on a physical medium at cost, should they want to do so.
> Offering the source-code for download, including it on the CD etc. are not
> sufficient to comply with the GPL.
True, they're not SUFFICIENT, but they're not PROHIBITED either. Do you understand the difference?
> If you consider this a delaying tactic, complain to the FSF.
The FSF is not forcing you to make the choice you have made. That's the part that annoys me: the abrogation of responsibility for one's actions. You COULD have made the source and binary available on the same CD, or making them available for download, AS WELL AS offering the source on a physical medium to anyone who requests it. That you have chosen not to do so is NOT the responsibility of the FSF, but your own.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 24 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 10-Oct-2002 09:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
"Doctor Doctor, My girlfriend left me.."
" No Problem, blame it on MOS"
"Teacher ic couldn`t do my homeworks yesterday, it`s MOS fault"
"Oh I understand"
to be continued...Really Boy, you make me feel sick..
You know also if you wish it, not everything which happens on the World is the fault of MOS or their fans!
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 25 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 10:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Bill Hoggett):
Calm down Bill, they have complied that is all that is required. Most won't give
a stuff about the source and there is nothing stopping you from getting the source
and the binaries and redistributing it if you think that is the way it should
be done.
They have conformed to the letter and the spirit of GPL. They might _not_ have
complied to the ajudged Slashdot reader Open Source geek spirit.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 26 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 10-Oct-2002 10:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
Last time I checked, Bill Hogget wasn't a "MOSer"...
This "I need the source code and I need the port to comply to the GPL
fully" crap is insane, but you seem to think that every insane thing
comes from MOS people...
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 27 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
Yes, its the minimum requirement they must fulfill. Everything else would cost money. Do you expect Hyperion to "sell" this port for nothing and even pay for it?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 28 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 10:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"Offering the source-code for download, including it on the CD etc. are not sufficient to comply with the GPL."
On the contrary including the source code on the CD is totally sufficient to comply with the GPL. That's clause 3(a) and that's the normal way for e.g. Linux distributions to comply because it's the easiest.
"Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange"
You've chosen clause 3(b) instead, and there are two possible reasons why you might do that. I'd be amused if you'd tell this public forum which it is
1. Including source code with the main product would be much too costly or inconvenient (this often happens if the main product is an integrated device, like the TiVO)
2. You want to delay 3rd party developers in order to maximise revenue
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 29 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 10:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Steffen Haeuser):
@Steffen
> Bill Hoggett: What do you want ? We *are* fully complying to the GPL.
Absolutely. I never suggested otherwise.
> Making the Source-Code available on CD on request is fully legal. There
> is nothing murky about it, and it is fully compliant to the GPL.
Yes. No arguments there.
I would have made no comment at all if Ben had simply quit while he was ahead. Basically he first said "this is how we're doing it". Fine, whether we like it or not, Hyperion are entitled to make that choice. Then he started justifying the choice by saying "the FSF forced us to do it this way, and no other way", and that's when the unplesant smell of BS started to waft towards my nostrils.
Please do not take this personally. I, like everyone else, appreciate your work in porting the game. I want to see it released. I want you guys to be recompensed for your work. I acknowledge that Hyperion are complying with the GPL. I want to make that absolutely clear.
What I object to is the BS.
> And BTW: There is no such beast as "the spirit of a contract".
Not legally, no. But there is a spirit in the GNU project, and I'm sure RMS would he happy to explain it to you. At length. :-)
> There are regulations of a contract. If you want a licence which is more
> strict than the GPL you have to define a new licence.
You are complying with the GPL requirements. Have I said that enough times already?
> There are three options (3a,3b,3c) for distributing the source-code of
> a program under GPL. This is 3b:
<snip>
That's my point: "OPTIONS". This is an option Hyperion have chosen, not one they're forced into. Suggesting otherwise is BS. You're not guilty of it, but Ben is.
No disrespect intended.
@all
> Well, it's just another opportunity for MOS'ers to have a dig at
> Hyperion, rather than a genuine desire to have the sourcecode.
Anybody who thinks I'm a "MOS'er" needs to carefully extract their brain from their rectum. Seriously.
Disrespect intended.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 30 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C on 10-Oct-2002 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
First time ever I am agreeing with an anonymous poster. :-)
But yes, I for one do not begrudge paying Hyperion their dues.
Bill & Ben, please take your slanging matches off-list. It really
isn't good for community moral when two well known Amiga figures have
a public ding-dong.
Regards
Mikey C
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 31 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 10:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
> This "I need the source code and I need the port to comply to the GPL
> fully" crap is insane,
You sound like an anarchist. Are you suggesting we should only comply with those parts of a license that we find conventient, and ignore the rest?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 32 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 10-Oct-2002 11:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Steffen Haeuser):
"Making the Source-Code available on CD on request is fully legal."
Did anyone suggest otherwise? The only thing is that it would be nice to know why you didn't want to distribute the source together with binary as is the normal practice.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 33 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
>> Would need specific hyperion code that they dont have to supply :)
>Wrong. That would break the GPL license big time
A bit off topic but its an interesting one.
If the port requires specific hyperion code that is not GPL based as well as the GPL based source then the non GPL based source prereq does not have to be supplied therefore rendering it as unbuildable.
Thats what I would do if I wanted to piss off Bill Hogget esq ;-)
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 34 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Nicholai Benalal):
"normal practice", is there such a thing?
Newp, well apart from the normal practice open source geeks having big tantrums at those that abide only by the letter of the GPL.
Lets see, cost of postage for request of source, turnaround time - that could be as short as a couple of days turnaround.
Boo bloody hoo. Ballyhoo over nothing IMHO.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 35 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris on 10-Oct-2002 11:17 GMT
I can't understand the Amiga community no more.
There's a new items explaining that a new game, and not an ordinary one that's Quake II after all, is finally available for the Amiga, and suddenly there's an army of trolls rising up and shouting about GPL licence.
Hey guys, can't you just be happy to see a new game on the Amiga (almost a miracle) which by the way is super fast (I have it on my HD since several months thanks to Hyperion beta test). Can't you just spend 50 Euros to buy it, enjoy it and be happy ? Or just ignore it if you're not interested ?
No. There must always be a complaint, some sad people and some trolling.
THIS IS SURREALISTIC !
I'll cheer me up thinking about all the people I demoed Quake II over differents shows in the last weeks and who were REALLY happy to see a new game and wanted to have it.
Bye,
Ben Yoris
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 36 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Ben Yoris):
Its taken you this long to realise that the Amiga community is nothing more than
a bunch of wrecked old tedious geriatrics moaning about the length of the bus queue and the youth of today?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 37 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C on 10-Oct-2002 11:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Ben Yoris):
Percentage wise, Ben, How many people at a
computer show do you reckon would buy a copy?
Just wondering.
Mikey C
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 38 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 11:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> A bit off topic but its an interesting one.
Yes it is. There's no suggestion that this might be the case at all, but someone felt the need to put forward the scenario, so I just replied to it.
> If the port requires specific hyperion code that is not GPL based as well as
> the GPL based source then the non GPL based source prereq does not have to
> be supplied therefore rendering it as unbuildable.
*Sigh*. I can only point you to the quotes from the GPL license in comment 18.
> Thats what I would do if I wanted to piss off Bill Hogget esq ;-)
If you did that you'd probably piss off id too. They generously chose to release work it no doubt took them a long time to complete, and they chose the GPL for a reason.
<petulant mode>
Just as a matter of curiosity, how come 80% of the people quoting my surname on the net get to spell it incorrectly? I'm not really that pissed off about it, but I am curious.
</petulant mode>
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 39 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bell Huggit
Because 99 pc of the people on the net can't spell anyway so thats good odds you
are getting.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 40 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Anonymous):
:)
I guess that explains it. And anyway, since _most_ are making the same mistake I ought to count myself lucky. ;-P
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 41 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Bill Hoggett):
> *Sigh*. I can only point you to the quotes from the GPL license in comment 18.
Wrongo. ;-)
If I modify some GPL code to use some Win32 API functionality and #include <windows.h> then I do not have to provide windows open source too or a windows
development environment for free.
Thus if they use warp3d and #include it then they dont have to provide Warp3d open source or even the development environment.
Note well that on the distribution point you have to make sure the client can
actually read the source ( "machine readable" ) so even providing it on CD will
be insufficient. If I do not have a CD player but an 8mm tape deck then Hyperion
will have not met the terms of the GPL for me. They have to provide it on the format that I request in my letter to them - which is an 8mm tape ( oh and I should provide the block size and device type too in my letter ).
So supplying it on CD is NOT good enough, which is why you can also request from
say MandrakeSoft the entire source on tape or even as a fanfold printout.
Whats my source? IBMs GPL guidelines, picked over by lots and lots of lawyers.
Toodlepipski.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 42 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by S on 10-Oct-2002 11:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Steffen Haeuser):
What people want is a binary to download right now. That would be nice. Not required, but thats what all those Linux guys would do and expect.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 43 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by S on 10-Oct-2002 11:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Ben Yoris):
>Can't you just spend 50 Euros to buy it, enjoy it and be happy ? Or just ignore it >if you're not interested ?
Thats the point. It's under the GPL, it's supposed to be free. A lot of people all ready have a copy of Quake 2 on the PC. For them it would be best if they could just download the binary and source off the web. Thats how it's done for every other platform. I guess they have enough developers who care enough to do this stuff on their free time and who aren't interested in making a quick buck out of it.
Of course there are a lot of people in the Amiga community who'll buy this and thats good too. But not having the option of downloading it (until someone buys it and puts it on Aminet) is sucky.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 44 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Anonymous):
Bill, heres the bit I think causes the confusion for us:
"b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License. "
This means that if I modify GPL'd A source to make non GPL'd B a #include and static link/dynamic link prereq making product C then product C MUST be GPL'd but product B's licensing state does not have to change.
A ----------> C
( #include and -lB )
B
So by not making B publically available as source or by including the build ( note the GPL sayes machine readable not machine *buildable* ) prereqs you are
sticking by the letter and the spirit of the GPL and still releasing source that
cannot be built without the development side of B ( non GPL ).
The fact that we now have modified the GPL'd makefiles for A and the GPL'd
source for A shows how to get it working if you have the "private" side of B.
So you can have the source for C but you still cant build it and you cant touch me.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 45 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 11:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (S):
"For them it would be best if they could just download the binary and source off the web. Thats how it's done for every other platform. I guess they have enough developers who care enough to do this stuff on their free time and who aren't interested in making a quick buck out of it. "
Not all. It sayes in the GPL if you provide a warranty then you can charge for
it. This means that if third party gets hold of the source from Hyperion and
builds it and makes it available then they have to EXPLICITLY STATE that there
is no warranty for their downloadable version. Therefore if you have a problem
with the HoggettQuake2 downloadable don't come rushing to Hyperion.
You can make money out of the "services" ( warranty ) and "distribution" costs.
Nothing wrong in that.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 46 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Cojo on 10-Oct-2002 11:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (S):
i think its just fair to them, to get the chance to make some money, they wont get rich, way to much work for such low price ....
we will see if the quality justifys the money wich i belive it will....
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 47 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Oct-2002 12:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
Oh and amusingly IF a private API is used that is non GPL you cant write a HoggettQuake anyway because you would have to get access to the private API. Might as well port it yourself in that case.
I hope that is what Hyperion have done, although I guess it is not because even I have the W3d #includes and library files that would probably be required.
In the future Ben, screw em this way ;-)
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 48 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 10-Oct-2002 12:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
> when in reality the have chosen to supply only the MINIMUM
> REQUIREMENT for compliance
So?
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 49 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 10-Oct-2002 12:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Anonymous):
> Thus if they use warp3d and #include it then they dont have to provide
> Warp3d open source or even the development environment.
Based on Warp3D being distributed with the OS? Yes, that's one of the areas where the GPL is not watertight. However, that applies to Warp3D itself, not to any code which requires Warp to compile. That code would have to be released, even if it was previously produced for a non-GPL product.
Stll, that wasn't what the original person suggested. They were talking about the Quake2 engine previously used by Hyperion in Heretic II.
The rest of your post I agree with, which only shows that some of the more antiquated parts of the GPL need reviewing. It is of course unreasonable to expect anyone who wants to release code under the GPL to have access to every physical medium imaginable so they can send you a copy.
You could get round that anyway, with a bit of organisation. There are companies who specialise in tranferring data from one type of media to another, so if you are releasing GPL code, you could locate one of these. You release your code on the Net, and supply any physical media that you have access to on request. If someone requests media you cannot access, you can contact that company you located to transfer the data for you, passing the cost to the customer.
In practice, the easiest and cheapest way to supply the source is in electronic form. The developer may have to invest in the time to locate a host for the source and then actually upload it, but it's a one-off operation. For the recipients, it provides the quickest, least hassle-bound way of obtaining the source if they need it. Anything else indroduces extra work on one side and expense on the other, when for the most part neither is would prove necessary.
Hyperion Complete Quake 2 port : Comment 50 of 163ANN.lu
Posted by Cojo on 10-Oct-2002 12:13 GMT
wonder why some guys always complain about gpl,
if hyperion would break gpl they have to deal with it, BY THEMSELFS...
if they dont, and you dont like the way they release the product,
dont buy it :P
id prefer to say thx, for the port....
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