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[News] First DivX from WoA2002!ANN.lu
Posted on 03-Nov-2002 22:09 GMT by Amon_Re128 comments
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The first DivX from WoA2002 Online! The first DivX is online! you can get it here on my site.
This file will be online for about 8 hours, after that i'll remove the download (i have very limited traffic), please set up a mirror somewhere :)
Sorry for the shaky image, but it's the first time i filmed something like this, and also, the image quality isn't what i'd hoped, however, i'll improve on this situation asap. (consider this V1.0 ^_^) Amon_Re
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 51 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Zzzz on 04-Nov-2002 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Yeah...it's very good to give a transition period for new OS to get native apps.
Ben...any chance demoing OS4 within few days in more complete form on A1? :)
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 52 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 04-Nov-2002 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
No, when I say AmigaOS, I talk about any OS that will remain remotely compatible with available software. Let's be honest here. Neither new nor old software using the amiga API will be safe.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 53 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2002 11:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Björn Hagström):
We are indeed looking at ways to combine new protected apps with older unprotected software.
The kernel is pretty flexible and so is the memory handler which can use different memory allocation schemes for different parts of the address space.
But don't expect everything in one go.
A kernel is something you can keep developing for ages.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 54 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Nov-2002 11:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Nicholai Benalal):
*cough* MP *cough*
Amon_Re
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 55 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2002 11:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Nicholai Benalal):
That's not what Thomas Frieden tells me.
He considers it to be an issue of backwards compatibility mainly and not so much of a technical challenge.
I can't really comment more because I lack the technical expertise.
I do understand the issues involved to some extent but not sufficiently to do justice to whatever Thomas told me.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 56 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Zzzz on 04-Nov-2002 11:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Are you considering some kind of process manager which could be enabled eg. by pressing Ctrl + Amiga + Del :-)
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 57 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 04-Nov-2002 11:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Amon_Re):
What are you coughing about? You didn't understand that you can forget about
memory protecting amiga software?
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 58 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 04-Nov-2002 11:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Oki, thanks for the info. Just for clarification, I meant it as a theoretical future developement possibility. Not for AOS4.0.
/Björn
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 59 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Zzzz on 04-Nov-2002 11:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Amon_Re):
Did you meant SMP? (Symmetric Multi Processing)
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 60 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Nov-2002 11:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Nicholai Benalal):
Nope, i didn't forget about it, but most causes for crashes will be catched, the Friedens are working on quite afew neat tricks as Ben said, it will still be able to crash it, but it won't be as easy as in AOS3.9 e.g. especially if the apps get updated for AOS4.
Amon_Re
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 61 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Zzzz on 04-Nov-2002 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Amon_Re):
Ok...I guess you really meant MP...but there's always something that can go wrong with MP too. :-P
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 62 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 04-Nov-2002 11:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
The biggest technical challange is to remain compatible to existing software.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 63 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Nov-2002 11:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
It sounds like OS4 will boot with 2 x 1GB DIMMs installed (unlike BeOS which usually stops at 1GB or less) so that's a bit of good news.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 64 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Nov-2002 11:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Someone saw ExecSG crash at WOA, see amiga.org
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 65 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 04-Nov-2002 12:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (David Scheibler):
.. was it excec crashing or excec reporting about crashed application task...
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 66 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 04-Nov-2002 12:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (priest):
..buggy task switch tester app... ;P
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 67 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Nov-2002 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (David Scheibler):
As explained by Hans-Yorg, this was intentional to demonstrate that the guru is back :) I haven't got more details about it tho, but i can find out, if my word isn't enough
Amon_Re
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 68 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Nov-2002 12:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Amon_Re):
>this was intentional to demonstrate that the guru is back
Don't you know that the MorphOS crashes were also intentional to demonstrate
that MP in A-Box is not possible, but that after the crash Quark was still
running? ;)
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 69 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Nov-2002 12:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (David Scheibler):
I thought there was some bugs in 'intuition clone'? Somebody said that by moving windows -> crash boom bang! :-P
Or is Intuition in A-box too?
Well those bugs are understandable...after all MOS team had to recreate GUI system.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 70 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 04-Nov-2002 12:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (David Scheibler):
Offcourse it was intentional ;-) Even M$ crash their software at intentionally at presentations...right?
Don't know if the morphos version that was shown at WOASE was the same as in Gothenborg but it crashed there too.
Doesn't look to good to show off a system that crashes (several times) at every show, with normal use...
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 71 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Nov-2002 12:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (Anonymous):
>thought there was some bugs in 'intuition clone'? Somebody said that by moving
>windows -> crash boom bang! :-P
1) Everything of the AmigaAPI is in A-Box.
2) I never experienced a crash when I was moving windows here (would be
interesting to know if just Ambient windows were moved or a window of an app,
i.e. Frogger, which is not really stable here).
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 72 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Nov-2002 12:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Troels E):
Of course it crashed. But it's a betaversion and doesn't reflect what will ship
with the end user release. If WoA had been a few days later and Hyperion had
shown a wroking OS (68k emulator and OS4 modules) and it had crashed I wouldn't
say that this product will never eber be stable. At OASE there were also '100%
finished' OS4 modules shown which still had bugs, but it's work in progress and
they will be fixed.
At least for MorphOS there are two professional companies behind the operating
system and why do you think why they pay their employees? For doing nothing?
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 73 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 04-Nov-2002 12:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello,
Ben Hermans said:
" He considers it to be an issue of backwards compatibility mainly and not so much of a technical challenge."
The problem is that any apps old or new (OS 4) that'll use any part of AmigaOS 3.x heritage (Intuition, Reaction, MUI...etc) can't be really protected as this parts used can't because of the backward comaptibility.
That's why any kind of fully memory protection implementation can't be made even for new OS 4 software unless you develop completely new APIs for same and don't use old AmigaOS heritage APIs.And this take a lot of time.
Additionnaly this imply that a port from an AmigaOS softawre to a software that use the new APIs will need a complete rewrite of the softwares. Which take also a lot of time.
Regards
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 74 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Nov-2002 12:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (David Scheibler):
<Everything of the AmigaAPI is in A-Box
This sounds bit odd (or even stupid) to run almost everything (especially Intuition) in emulation API (A-Box). I think this will be big problem unless MOS team will take the GUI out of A-box (to gain some stabily).
Or will it break AOS3.x-compatibly if the GUI is removed from A-BOX?
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 75 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 04-Nov-2002 14:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> With OS 4, we can move to isolated and fully protected address spaces at any
> time but the real issue is the fact that it will break a shit-load of legacy
> software
Not just legacy software, relying MEMF_PUBLIC is a joke.
You'd either need to go for a full message copying system, or try for a complex system where shared memory is only available to the programs you want to have access. For instance, once a program has ReplyMsg'd it ought not to be able to access the message any more. I don't believe programs ought to be able to write to even their own code areas either.
I think it would be possible to produce a kernel that allows areas to be mapped in and out of a process at run time, you'd need to extend the API though. However I'm more interested in seeing how much can be done without breaking compatibility. Now if you could send the AOS4.0 source code back in time to 1992 I'd be very grateful.
Phill
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 76 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2002 14:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Nicholai Benalal):
Yes, I do believe that's exactly what I said now for three times already :)
Obviously the idea is to get as many apps OS 4 native as possible and then, when the time is right, we move to protected, isolated address spaces.
Legacy software can then be run in a protected sandbox.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 77 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 04-Nov-2002 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (Anonymous):
Hello,
Do you know MacOS X? The Classic MacOS 9 compatibility box? ...etc This has been proved to be working well. The boxes design of MorphOS is the same design than what it's already done in OS X.
And according to the last comment of Ben Hermans, he seems to also think of using a "sandbox".
Regards
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 78 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by It's meee!!! on 04-Nov-2002 14:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
You are making slight changes to your approach as time passes, slight change after change...
!END :D
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 79 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by It's meeee!!! on 04-Nov-2002 14:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Frodon):
Yes, he is suggesting it now, but I still remember that he said many times that the OS4 approach will be magic and won't need any sandbox, and also I remember him talking about classic apps getting benefit from new apis, and nonsense like that.
At the end after being at WOASE this last weekend I firmly believe that Hyperion makes more noise than programming.
And no, Exec+Emulator integration is not 10% of the project.
Both teams have a lot of work in front of them, MOS is not so ready as they say either, but almost MOS people admit it.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 80 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 04-Nov-2002 15:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 79 (It's meeee!!!):
Hi!
Sure... but a major part of these other 90% (or whatever) have already been done. It is not as if due to the Emulator integration not yet been done no other work could be done - a lot of other work has been done in parallel.
Steffen Haeuser
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 81 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2002 15:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (It's meee!!!):
Not really.
I'm afraid its your lack of insight in the subject that cloudes your judgement.
For instance, you were at the WOASE and could have seen a fully working Exec SG kernel running on the AmigaOne yet here you go and claim it needs to be finished.
All I'm saying is that down the line more software might need to be relegated to a sandbox environment because we do not want more and more irrelevant legacy software to interfer with the kernel design.
This certainly won't be the case for at least 1 year which is why the emulation concept of OS 4 (not using a sandbox to begin with) is a superior solution.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 82 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Nov-2002 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (David Scheibler):
It's hard to tell when the whole UI freezes :)
Amon_Re
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 83 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 04-Nov-2002 16:07 GMT
Hyperion guys: You will let us know immediately when OS4 first time boots to workbench on AmigaOne HW, won't you?
Then, a little bit later, a mpg video about it. ;-)
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 84 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 04-Nov-2002 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (David Scheibler):
Hmmm... this "At least for MorphOS there are two professional companies behind the operating system and why do you think why they pay their employees? For doing nothing? " is totally new to me.
bplan definitely does not count .... thendic... perhaps, professional like AmigaInc, if one considers their PR ...
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 85 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Nov-2002 16:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (David Scheibler):
So it´s no hobby-OS anymore?
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 86 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 04-Nov-2002 16:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello,
@Ben Hermans
I really wonder why you are making this claimed "superior" design if
it'll be finally used for just one year because after a sandbox will
be needed for avoiding legacy software to interfere with the kernel
design (according to what you said)???
To gain what just some milliseconds in the boot time? (I even not
sure you'll gain something :) ).
Note that the Classic sandbox of MacOS X 10.2 start MacOS 9 even
faster (a lot faster in fact) then the original one on the same
hardware. It seems that the sandbox design is not so bad (of course if
it is correctly implemented :) ).
Regards
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 87 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Nov-2002 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (priest):
I'm using Ben Hermans definition of a professional company which says that it's
then a professional company if it and its employees live from its sales
(software, hardrware sales). If it is not the case then according to Mr Hermans
you have to call it hobby coders (for example coders that only get some small
amount of the income after the product has been sold, and not a monthly salary).
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 88 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by bbrockie on 04-Nov-2002 17:28 GMT
Maybe you should consider throwing the file up on Aminet
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 89 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 04-Nov-2002 17:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Rik Sweeney):
Quake 2 was available, yes!
I bought a copy of it (The Hyperion guys need some money in their pockets)
and it really flies amazingly fast on my 603e/240 + BVision Amiga 1200
in fact it feels faster and more responsive than Quake or HereticII... its
the new MiniGL you see!
I'll be getting the modules installed soon....so ready to kick b**t on the
network games! :-)
alan
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 90 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 04-Nov-2002 18:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ole-Egil):
@Ole-Egil
> Since _when_ are you sitting on a mountain in Chile? And what the frell
> are you doing down there?
Since two weeks, and I'm going to be here for two more. I'm operating a
telescope on the mountain of La Silla in the Atacama Desert.
I'm observing so-called eclipsing binary stars, if that means anything to
anybody. (And I look for brains too, occationally...) I have recently
received word from my group that the Swiss wishes me (as a astronomer
courtesy) to observe a possible planetary transistion for them, that is
an extrasolar planet eclipsing its parent star. I'm pretty excited(TM)
about it.
This just proves that Amigans can be found everywhere on the globe ;-)
So to get back to the IMPORTANT stuff...How about those speech transcripts? :-)
.
SlimJim
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 91 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 04-Nov-2002 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 87 (David Scheibler):
Oh. Ok. 8)
(you always learn something new in the Amigaland)
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 92 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Nov-2002 18:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 90 (SlimJim):
"I'm observing so-called eclipsing binary stars, if that means anything to
anybody. (And I look for brains too, occationally...) I have recently
received word from my group that the Swiss wishes me (as a astronomer
courtesy) to observe a possible planetary transistion for them, that is
an extrasolar planet eclipsing its parent star. I'm pretty excited(TM)
about it. "
Now that is really interesting. Let us know if you find it.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 93 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2002 18:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (Frodon):
It has nothing to do with booting time whatsoever.
It's about moving the AmigaOS further into the future with things like full memory protection, SMP, multithreading etc.
As this work progresses, more and more old software will break.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 94 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by It's MEEEE!!! on 04-Nov-2002 19:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Dear Ben Hermans ME! was at the woase completely desolated seeing that all you have to show was a text console with may resume months of hard work, but it is very far from a complete system. BE HONEST AND ADMIT IT, NOBODY WILL GET HURT.
As I said before all of that technical stuff has a lot of meaning to you but doesn't show how good or bad is OS4 as it is not working at user level. And I doubt so much that the whole project is at 90%. ME is coder too and know how hard , long and difficult is a big project like this.
MOS is incomplete too, as someone pointed at the functionality level its worst than 1.2, due the fact that most of the system components are missing. But almost in MOS you can launch apps and play with them, and yes you can crash the machine too.
Are you going to say that anything of this is false???
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 95 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 04-Nov-2002 19:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 93 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello,
Yes indeed that's why you'll use a sandbox, isn't it? :)
Regards
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 96 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 04-Nov-2002 19:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 93 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@Ben Hermans
I can unfortunately report that the "brain search" you put me to so far has
yielded little results... I'll widen the search pattern tomorrow night ;-)
(Aw, I'm sorry Dammy...This is low, I know.)
.
SlimJim
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 97 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 04-Nov-2002 19:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (It's MEEEE!!!):
Hello,
@it's meee
In fact some people didn't noticed the contextual menus of Ambient.
You can do a lot more than launching apps with Ambient (The MorphOS
desktop):
Launching apps of course, Copy, Move multiple items fully
multitaskingly, rename, delete, (un)snapshot icons and windows, format
devices, edit icons properties (tooltypes, protections bytes,
type...etc), view all files, changing backgrounds, fonts, some
effects, browse filesystem hierarchy in text mode...etc
So you can see, it's a lot more than just launching apps :)
Regards
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 98 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by It's ME again! on 04-Nov-2002 19:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (Frodon):
Come on people! old ME saw the context menus, and also saw that ambient only is working for the sole pourpose of show something in computer fares.
It is very basic, this doesn't mean that things cannot improve, but don't see posible a complete release of MOS almost in 6 months.
But I don't want to tell how long about OS4, because don't want to start crying.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 99 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 04-Nov-2002 19:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Frodon):
Actually Classic is more like a virtual machine, like MOL. It's more similar to UAE than A-Box.
First DivX from WoA2002! : Comment 100 of 128ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 04-Nov-2002 19:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
That's a nonsequitur.
A sandbox is superior solution. Take it from somebody who went through 68k compatibility in MacOS and then finally Classic in Mac OS X.
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