| [Web] Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show | ANN.lu |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 1 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by priest on 20-Nov-2002 18:44 GMT | Hmmm... was there any Amigas in that show?
I really do not know what to think of this:
http://www.panorama.las.pl/am2002/PB160008.JPG
Is that a f*cking boing ball? 8)
Or do they replace testicles with boing balls? :/
Amiga Anywhere ....
Yes, I'm tired.... |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 2 of 106 | ANN.lu |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 3 of 106 | ANN.lu |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 4 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by mahen on 20-Nov-2002 19:01 GMT | In reply to Comment 3 (Adam):
Really ?! Any details in english ? |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 5 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by priest on 20-Nov-2002 19:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 3 (Adam):
ahh, that's why people were smiling. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 6 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by priest on 20-Nov-2002 19:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 5 (priest):
No, I do not really mean that. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 7 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by priest on 20-Nov-2002 19:12 GMT | In reply to Comment 6 (priest):
I bet people were genuinely happy. So it was also in the demo in finland, even though the same 5min demo version was used, everybody was smiling. Except perhaps when people looked at the cold A1 on the other corner. (yes, cold, not cool/kewl)
(I think I saw even the Piru's smile fade away for a brief moment (A1 was so far behind that it was not even fun) ... In the end I think also MOS developers and MOS fans were happy about seeing more than not just one PPC HW.) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 8 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by mahen on 20-Nov-2002 19:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 3 (Adam):
We should wait for some reports, but as far as I know, the few
crashes that occured were due to BUGGY programs.
For instance, FroggerNG (great program) is currently VERY unstable.
It'll improve of course.
What else ? IBrowse is not very stable. I rather use Voyager on my
pegasos. I surfed the whole day, no crash. The incoming IBrowse
2.3 should be "rock solid".
In other words : no memory protection for classics apps : buggy
programs crash the A/BOX (not MOS itself). It's obvious.
I guess people watched some divX with Frogger, etc, so it's not
surprising.
But I was not there. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 9 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by MIB on 20-Nov-2002 19:23 GMT | In reply to Comment 8 (mahen):
#3
In other words : no memory protection for classics apps : buggy
programs crash the A/BOX (not MOS itself). It's obvious.
So MOS can just close the A/BOX and start a new one ?
Or do you have to reboot the machine ? |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 10 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by mahen on 20-Nov-2002 19:24 GMT | In reply to Comment 9 (MIB):
On my version, you have to reboot, but indeed, this
wouldn't be a problem to be up to "restart" the A/BOX.
However, considering MOS is loaded in 2/3 seconds... |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 11 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 19:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 8 (mahen):
One day our going to have to stop using the "buggy" programs excuse , its getting boring. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 12 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Frodon on 20-Nov-2002 19:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 11 (cOrpse):
Hello cOrpse,
DO you prefer lies? This was the true. What crashed is not the OS but
softwares.
Here at home I can use my Pegasos with stable softwares without
crashing any time during all the time I use it (about 7 hours/day)
Regards |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 13 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by mahen on 20-Nov-2002 19:44 GMT | In reply to Comment 12 (Frodon):
Yes, classic amiga apps work this way. One share memory space.
Boggy programs crash the whole amiga. It has always been like this.
I crashed much more my previous A1200.
I've used it the whole day, surfing, burning, not a single crash. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 14 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 19:46 GMT | In reply to Comment 12 (Frodon):
"DO you prefer lies? This was the true. What crashed is not the OS but
softwares."
Maybe the OS didn't crash as a whole , but the OS could be causing those crashes , it isn't the intended platform for most of the applications it and its users intend to use... And if these programs are known to crash why the hell are they on a system thats meant to be selling the product??!
"Here at home I can use my Pegasos with stable softwares without
crashing any time during all the time I use it (about 7 hours/day)"
I hardly consider a PPC naitive "hello, world" an application of any substance however many times you run it a day ;) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 15 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by David Scheibler on 20-Nov-2002 19:48 GMT | In reply to Comment 14 (cOrpse):
>I hardly consider a PPC naitive "hello, world" an application of any substance
Yeah, next time they will show "avail" and everybody will be happy ;) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 16 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 19:52 GMT | In reply to Comment 15 (David Scheibler):
"Yeah, next time they will show "avail" and everybody will be happy ;) "
And it'll bring down the system , then they won't have the buggy application excuse to save their sorry arses ;). |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 17 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by DaveW on 20-Nov-2002 19:53 GMT | Runaway and failing tasks should not be able to bring down an entire OS
any more if for nothing other than usability. Grandma Josephine doesn't know
that AmigaOffice has a bug in it and doesn't know what a bug is but still knows
she just lost all her work and probably blames herself.
Too many times I here the "if the apps are rock solid then it wouldn't crash". That
is just arrogance. If MorphOS and AmigaOS are ever to be dragged kicking and
screaming into the mainstream then some level of protection needs to become
a built in, not an optional set of services you can run if you have an MMU. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 18 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Frodon on 20-Nov-2002 19:55 GMT | In reply to Comment 14 (cOrpse):
Hello cOrpse,
I use a lot more than an hello world :) I use Voyager, YAM, AmIRC,
AmChat, Amplifier, AmitradeCenter, sometimes Pagestream and
Photogenics.
Regards |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 19 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by David Scheibler on 20-Nov-2002 19:56 GMT | In reply to Comment 16 (cOrpse):
No it will show virtual memory without a working disk.device ;)
Seriously there is no doubt that MorphOS is a work in progress and still in
beta, so it should be expected that not all works as it should.
On the other hand I think that those who present the system should carefully
choose what apps they will show and what apps they won't show because of
stability issues. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 20 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 19:58 GMT | In reply to Comment 19 (David Scheibler):
"I think that those who present the system should carefully
choose what apps they will show and what apps they won't show because of
stability issues"
exactly :) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 21 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Frodon on 20-Nov-2002 19:58 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (DaveW):
Hello Dave,
It has already been stated by lot of Amiag developers or actors
including Hyperion that it's not possible to implement a memory
protection in MorphOS A-Box or AmiagOS 4 without breaking the
compatibility with legacy AMigaOS 3.x software.
There is the memory protection on the Quark kernel and the A-Box is
running on a memory protected space. But the applications inside it
are not protected because the goal of the A-Box is to offer AmigaOS
APIs comaptibility and so to be compatible with Legacy AmiagOS 3.x
software (This also valid for AmigaOS 4).
Regards |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 22 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by mahen on 20-Nov-2002 19:59 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (DaveW):
It is currently IMPOSSIBLE as it would break compatibility, but
will be used later (as the kernel etc support it).
So it's not an excuse, it's a fact.
Anyway, AOS will never be mainstream again. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 23 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by DaveW on 20-Nov-2002 20:02 GMT | In reply to Comment 21 (Frodon):
Frodon I know this but thanks for taking the time and patience to re-explain it.
My take is that at some point we bite the bullet and break backwards compatibility
for the sake of some of the NEEDED function. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 24 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Frodon on 20-Nov-2002 20:05 GMT | In reply to Comment 23 (DaveW):
Hello Dave,
But you knwo lot of AMiga users want to be able to run current AMiagOS
3.x apps. And also by doing that you get an OS that have 0 apps
available (in addition to the OS itself).
It's IMHO a kind of suicide. So for know MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 will
offer AMigaOS 3.x comaptibility and in the future they will have brand
new APIs to be able to make memory protected native apps (This is what
the Q-Box will be in MorphOS :) ).
Regards |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 25 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by David Scheibler on 20-Nov-2002 20:06 GMT | In reply to Comment 23 (DaveW):
Well the problem would then be that there is actually *no* classic Amiga
support in none of the OS. And I think that's nothing we want at the beginning. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 26 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by JoannaK on 20-Nov-2002 20:06 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (DaveW):
I assume you have never used windoes 95,98or even ME .. ???
Those go down quite nicely with single buggy software, and after each time it's minutes long Reboot (and often disk validations). Only Nt4 and it's kind have decent attempt of memory protection. Win2k is not so bad.. It's weakness are hastly made drivers that crash system, applications can be killed/restarted quite easily and they are well isolated. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 27 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 20:16 GMT | In reply to Comment 26 (JoannaK):
"I assume you have never used windoes 95,98or even ME .. ???"
windows 98 is quite stable until you start deleting things and not telling it and the registry about it ;) ... This is why ME and on have system restore for idiots that go around deleting things instead of taking the correct method.
"Those go down quite nicely with single buggy software,"
Bad MSDOS software will take 95 out ... but most of the time 98 can be revieved by a simple control-alt-delete and knocking explorer out to give it a chance of restarting.
"Only Nt4 and it's kind have decent attempt of memory protection. Win2k is not so bad.. It's weakness are hastly made drivers that crash system,"
F8 .. Last known good config ;) ... And the stability of NT is more to do with the NT's virtual machine for 16bit and older 32bit apps , you can test the presence of this by writing an assembly program with an illegal instruction in it.
"applications can be killed/restarted quite easily and they are well isolated."
Applications that have locked themselfs in and more so when visual studio debugging goes mental can't be killed .. which is a major downfall of what is quite a solid base. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 28 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by DaveW on 20-Nov-2002 20:22 GMT | In reply to Comment 26 (JoannaK):
You assume incorrectly, by a long way.
It is strange however that so many people talk about the bugginess of 95 and 98
when even with the stuff that I do tends to only result in a nice bit of stack
trace to read through. Drivers are the achilles heel of 9.x as well as PORs.
Please do not give me any more rubbish about AmigaOS being a far more stable
environment to run general day to day applications than even old operating systems such as Windows9x. It isn't true.
I am fully conversant with the strengths and weaknesses of the following operating systems have developed professionally with them over the last twelve years:
Windows 95,98,98SE,ME,XP,NT351,NT4,2000
OS/390,z/OS,OS/2,OS/400
AIX,Solaris,HPUX,NetBSD,Linux ( only since 2.2 )
OpenVMS,NeXT
And the following as a porter/hobbyist:
AmigaOS since 1.3, BeOS, EPOC32, PalmOS, MacOS ( since System 7 ).
So please, don't patronise me.
Dave |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 29 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by DaveW on 20-Nov-2002 20:23 GMT | In reply to Comment 28 (DaveW):
Obviously I mean as a pro developer these are the systems I have used during that period, Im not suggesting I have been using XP for 12 years. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 30 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 20:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 26 (JoannaK):
N.B. the biggest stability flaw with windows 95 was the ability to crash it remotely with very little effort ( ICMP overflow IIRC ). |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 31 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by reflect on 20-Nov-2002 20:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 30 (cOrpse):
well, name ONE operating system that hasn't had major remote holes like that at one time in it's history :)
I seem to recall something similar with amigaos, or its stack.
I can name a few for solaris, and probably some for other OSes aswell. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 32 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by DaveW on 20-Nov-2002 20:39 GMT | In reply to Comment 30 (cOrpse):
Was even easier than that, send out of band data.
I have specific reasons to think that AmigaOS3.x is a superior platform for what I do than Windows. Crash mythology does not come into it.
In fact the biggest mistake MicroSoft made was allowing people to upgrade from
Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. Tech support reported that over 70% of all problems
were upgrade path problems. This was disproportionate by the way. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 33 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 20:40 GMT | In reply to Comment 31 (reflect):
"well, name ONE operating system that hasn't had major remote holes like that at one time in it's history :)"
OpenBSD ;).
I would have liked to see the OpenBSD based debian to have been completed :( |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 34 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by DaveW on 20-Nov-2002 20:48 GMT | In reply to Comment 33 (cOrpse):
Ah, now let me tell you about an OpenBSD exploit..... |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 35 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 20:52 GMT | In reply to Comment 34 (DaveW):
Probably be better to tell theo ;) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 36 of 106 | ANN.lu |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 37 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by cOrpse on 20-Nov-2002 21:09 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (ZaP):
Hahah ! thats a classic .. one for the amiga photo album. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 38 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by strobe on 20-Nov-2002 21:24 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (ZaP):
That should be easy to fix. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 39 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by strobe on 20-Nov-2002 21:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 28 (DaveW):
For the record I found System 7.1 to be very stable, even with the dozens of INITs I would use. I didn't use Microsoft apps so I guess that helped.
Apple's goodwill was tarnished when they released 7.5.x for the first generation PowerMacs. Mac users in the know (like myself) avoided it like the plague.
That is all ;-) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 40 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by redrumloa on 20-Nov-2002 21:48 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (DaveW):
>Too many times I here the "if the apps are rock solid then it wouldn't crash".
>That is just arrogance.
True, that was Bill Gate's excuse why Win95 crashes. He said something like "Windows 95 is completely stable, only poorly written software causes instability". Which was complete bulls***, I remember Win95 fresh installs with NO other software installed or running crash. Heck Win95 was notorious for crashing while sitting idle:-P |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 41 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by David Scheibler on 20-Nov-2002 21:58 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (ZaP):
>If you wish to see most frequent crash of pegasos's openfirmware
Sorry, but where can I see the OF crash on this picture? |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 42 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Iggy Drougge on 20-Nov-2002 23:12 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (ZaP):
Oh, it looks SO awful! They're using that hideous PC font! Couldn't they have used Topaz or XEN or XHelvetica or just any font which doesn't look so awful? |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 43 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Daniel Miller on 20-Nov-2002 23:21 GMT | In reply to Comment 2 (Christophe Decanini):
Papa Decanini typed:
> How many active Amigans left in Poland ?
The news article released on www.morphos-news.de said that the show in Poland
was the most well-attended Thendic-France had gone to, and if you haven't
noticed they have been going to a lot of shows. So I guess that means there
are a bunch of Amigans in Poland. It is hard to tell, because language
differences keep us separate, much more than English/German/French/Italian
speakers in my opinion.
Thendic-France deserves a lot of credit for supporting the Poles, because it
ain't cheap to have professional representation and a bunch of new hardware
at a show in a foreign country.
There is also a Russian user community that they have talked about supporting
but boy, that will be a difficult task. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 44 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mark on 20-Nov-2002 23:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 14 (cOrpse):
>I hardly consider a PPC naitive "hello, world" an application of any substance >however many times you run it a day ;)
I would say running "hello world" is better than not running anything at all :) |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 45 of 106 | ANN.lu |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 46 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 21-Nov-2002 01:24 GMT | In reply to Comment 42 (Iggy Drougge):
It's text mode output. It doesn't matter. People said this in the AOS4 list too
"Why doesn't it use a proper Amiga font"
It confirms my view that Amigans are in general mentally retarded and that instead of building OS4 we should be concentrating on preventing these throw backs from breeding. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 47 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Lawd on 21-Nov-2002 02:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 46 (Anonymous):
100% agreed.
They seem to be totally out of touch with reality. These are people who actually *WANT* "special" Amiga hardware, for no other reason than being "special", and now when they can't have that, they actually *WANT* someone to fsck up standard hardware just to please their twisted minds.
I, too, browse the OS4 ML archives occasionally, and it's a sad read. There are some absolute nutjobs (one who even claims to be a programmer!) who complain over that there won't be any "Kickstart ROMs", they want to see fscking boingballs and Amiga logos at power-on, and the Friedens and some other patient people have to explain to them what a goddamn BIOS is! And this is not even on the ML for that piece of licenced hardware they're talking about! It's like travelling 15 years back in time. Catering to the whims of these rejects of evolution would equal the ultimate death of AmigaOS, and by pretending that there is "Amiga hardware" by inventing licences and shit we're a good way down that path already.
Bring in the LART damnit! Use the cluestick to hit them in the nuts to prevent procreation. Each time another of these anachronistic ignorant morons bleat about "new Amigas" in public, another nail is firmly planted in the AmigaOS coffin. And now the trademark owning company say they'll be dragging Terons to CeBIT and brag about "new Amigas"!? |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 48 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Hammer on 21-Nov-2002 05:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 32 (DaveW):
[Quote]
Was even easier than that, send out of band data.
I have specific reasons to think that AmigaOS3.x is a superior platform for what I do than Windows. Crash mythology does not come into it.
In fact the biggest mistake MicroSoft made was allowing people to upgrade from
Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. Tech support reported that over 70% of all problems
were upgrade path problems. This was disproportionate by the way.
[/Quote]
There’s no point talking about Win95 since it doesn’t have support from Microsoft. An MS user could bring up AmigaDos 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and ‘etc’ into an argument IF one follows your line of thinking.... |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 49 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by - on 21-Nov-2002 05:31 GMT | In reply to Comment 47 (Lawd):
Comment 47, what a cool one. Sums up one of the biggest problems
the "amiga community" has. |
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| Pictures from Amiga Meeting/Pegasos 2002 show : Comment 50 of 106 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Seehund on 21-Nov-2002 06:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 47 (Lawd):
Amen to that! That's what I mean with "the community masochism." It seems like some of the remaining Amiga users have lived in a technological vacuum for the last decade, completely oblivious of what's been going on in the world outside. Because of this they seem to think that hardware is *supposed* to be overpriced and underpowered - "it's Good Enough for us." Like you said, these few loonies actually seem to want "new Amigas," and now when there won't be any new Amigas they are prepared to destroy the main advantages of finally running on third party hardware, just to be "special," just for that licensed trademark. A normal Teron, or Mac, or Pegasos, or whatever is not "special" enough. AmigaOS 4 is born into a world of sh¡t, and there's actually people applauding this. :(
There doesn't seem to exist a LART powerful enough to wake them up. |
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