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[Web] New screenshots!ANN.lu
Posted on 22-Nov-2002 05:37 GMT by ece346 comments
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Hyperion have released some new screenshots. Go on and have a look here...
New screenshots! : Comment 251 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Drunken one on 22-Nov-2002 19:57 GMT
Stop the fights. It won't lead anywhere. I maybe drunken but Amiga rules...forever..
New screenshots! : Comment 252 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Drunken one on 22-Nov-2002 19:57 GMT
Stop the fights. It won't lead anywhere. I maybe drunken but Amiga rules...forever..
New screenshots! : Comment 253 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 22-Nov-2002 20:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 205 (Fabio Alemagna):
>Hum... Just out of curosity, are you always so polite and diplomatic towards your potential customers?
>Damn, all this has become so pathetic. Truly.
you seem upset, are you going to make OS4 GPL now ? :)
You failed with Frogger btw...
New screenshots! : Comment 254 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 22-Nov-2002 20:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 203 (dammy):
"Damdy", I'd pay HyperION(oh look I can use my caps lock!) to leave the look of OS4 as is just to scare use"less"rs like you away. Hmmm...not a bad idea if you want to keep the superficial cretons out...Ben I'd consider a lime green background perhaps with a picture of Bill McEwan in his "I am Amiga" T-Shirt on it but only if it's a permanent fixture. ;)
Oh and a note to Ben....it might be worth asking your potential users in a poll which they would prefer in relation to resizing of windows. That would be another way to stand out from the OS crowd.
>I certainly wouldn't buy a system (or atleast an OS) that didn't have killer eye candy. What was the one thing that drew me away from Apple to the Amiga? Eye candy. What will it take for the old Amiga folks to come back to HYPEOS4 or MOS? Eye candy. What will it take for me to go to MOS or HYPEOS4? X86 port. ;)
New screenshots! : Comment 255 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Hombre on 22-Nov-2002 20:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Björn Hagström):
Not only i think that it shall be the unix way on that point (4 sides/4 corners resizable), but it can be enhanced with a simple trick :
hold the CTRL key while moving a side/corner will symetrically move the other side/corner : a centered window will remain centered !
Got the idea ?
New screenshots! : Comment 256 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 22-Nov-2002 20:41 GMT
I would like the ability for the border gadgets to disappear(sliders, stuff at top), when the pointer isn't in the vincinty of the border. It would be neat to be able to turn it on/off (even set all sides independently). Could be stored in the .info file. And a configuration file for prgs. Or is this possible already?
Amiga! The OS makes it possible.
New screenshots! : Comment 257 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by AlBolone on 22-Nov-2002 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 244 (spot):
*applause* ... Professionally designing a GUI (or whatever product) is usually highly underestimated by an unexperienced user / consumer. They don't know about certain design rules, the concept behind visual communication and how to make abstract processes like handling a computer system transparent und ergonomic.
It's a common misunderstandig (like claimed here, too) that you can't create something visually good, b/c always some will like it and others won't. Even though there's this law of individual favor there's also one about professionalism -- and that's what makes a majority like something or not. Because professional creations (be it a GUI or a car) follow human needs and desires. And to specifically analyse and understand them must be always the first step for a successful product -- and that's what you need a pro for. Because you won't just get somebody with the talent, but somebody with experience, too ... and that's usually nothing you can catch up on all by yourself so easily ...
Why not make a professional product look professional? There's no better way to communicate inner quality through self-explaining visual quality. Besides: a professional product deserves the professional wrap-up anyway!!
New screenshots! : Comment 258 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 22-Nov-2002 20:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 247 (Iggy Drougge):
It's not about coolness, it's about usefulness :) I find the old way of resizing rather limited. That's all. It may be the "amiga-way" but that alone does not make it good enough for me, I rather use something that I find useful than keep it for namesake reasons. So an option to use whatever method the user finds most in line to his/her needs could be made by the OS4 GUI team.
/Björn
New screenshots! : Comment 259 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 22-Nov-2002 21:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 228 (Fabio Alemagna):
Fabio, some people don't like listening to others opinions when they don't agree with their own versions of reality. It's really a sad thing, listening to people such as Hermans, who berate others for having an opinion that conflitcts with his *opinion*, he is one of the biggest contributors to what he perceives as the "gutter", unfounded accusations/rumours/lawsuit threats are his game. I like ann.lu personally, it's not a total cheerleader board like some other sites. it has the most complete/quickest news story coverage of any amiga site, and a diversity of views on the forums (discussion forums you know, not everybody agrees).
New screenshots! : Comment 260 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Nov-2002 21:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 249 (Rudi Chiarito):
Hi Rudi,
Somehow I don't think the Broadcom BCM-1250 is suitable for a new desktop system. It was designed for the networking world. This chip has three Gigabit MACs for and two serial ports (for WAN connectivity) built-in.
Also, is there a system board with AGP support for this network processor?
New screenshots! : Comment 261 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 22-Nov-2002 21:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 243 (Tomas):
Which Christmas? It's been due to ship the last 2 Christmas's.
New screenshots! : Comment 262 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 22-Nov-2002 21:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 236 (NihilVor):
> my point is that he is so drugged up in that interview that it should be ignored. :)
One question - how can we tell when Bill should be ignored and when we should take what he says seriously?
Shouldn't he preface his interviews, statements and announcements with a suitable indication? :-)
New screenshots! : Comment 263 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by X on 22-Nov-2002 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 220 (spot):
You're talking about hiring a professional AD.
Well, isn't that exactly what Matt Chaput is? :)
I'm confident that the end default look will be
very nice and professional.
New screenshots! : Comment 264 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 22-Nov-2002 22:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 225 (Fabio Alemagna):
Fabio Alemagna typed:
> Anyway, people or place doesn't matter... would you be happy if I called
> your house a "gutter"? I guess not. Would you be happy if I said that the
> place where you usually hang on is a gutter? I guess not.
If there anyone Ben insulted by referring to ANN as a gutter it is Christian,
but I don't think he set out to insult anyone. He was just being ironic. God,
I can't believe I am defending him. ;)
New screenshots! : Comment 265 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 22-Nov-2002 22:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 259 (MIKE):
MIKE typed:
> like ann.lu personally, it's not a total cheerleader board like some other
> sites. it has the most complete/quickest news story coverage of any amiga
> site, and a diversity of views on the forums (discussion forums you know,
> not everybody agrees).
Yeah, that is one way of putting it!
New screenshots! : Comment 266 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 22-Nov-2002 22:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 216 (Anonymous):
>Interesting theory, marred only by the FACT that McEwen has stated on the
>record that OS5 *WILL* be launched 12 months after OS4.
Is that 12 months after that the "official launch" date (at CeBit, March 2003),
or 12 months after the "release" date?
New screenshots! : Comment 267 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 22-Nov-2002 22:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 253 (catohagen):
> You failed with Frogger btw...
I haven't failed with anything, it was not my objective to set Frogger GPL. _I_ suggested the Author to ask the copyrights holders to see if they would be fine with him just removing the GPL'd plugins and the releasing the sources of the LGPL'd ones, he didn't even think of that, in the first place. Ask hi, if you don't believe me.
New screenshots! : Comment 268 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk on 22-Nov-2002 23:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (Radfoo):
Hey, I liked the new screenshots as well. I was more than shocked to see the huge thread it spawned though.
New screenshots! : Comment 269 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk on 22-Nov-2002 23:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 169 (dammy):
Dammy.....do you double as Turrican the Avenger?
New screenshots! : Comment 270 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Nov-2002 23:35 GMT
Lovely.
I especially like the first and the seventh shot.
I wouldn't mind those as default looks. They can look even better though.
I certainly prefer this to VisCorp's MonkeyOS' unoriginal Swampient. There. A bit of name-calling. Can't have it look like it's a serious comment after all.
Seriously though.. Ambient looks like a slightly modified Dopus Magellan although it has some nice icons. It's really just a backdrop and Dopus. What's so bloody fantastic about that? (hint: nothing).
At least AmigaOS 4 will have the new features implemented that used to be hacks. That combined with the new AmiDock is enough to keep me happy till the next update. Plus screenshots don't show what's new under the bonnet.
New screenshots! : Comment 271 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 23-Nov-2002 00:00 GMT
Back to the subject....Is the page down? I can't get into the pics now.
New screenshots! : Comment 272 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 00:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 135 (Anonymous):
>Oh really?
>So the UltraSPARC series which has been around for 8 years and is fully
>64-bit isn't, according to yuo, a 64 bit CPU? Ho hum.
Either you're trolling or you don't genuinely understand the phrase Ben wrote. He is right, there is no availability of 64 bit CPUs for the general public. Tell me, where can I find 64bit powered desktops for home use?
New screenshots! : Comment 273 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 00:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 169 (dammy):
Ok, Randy "Dumm*ss" Vice, mommy and daddy are calling you again, go see what they want
New screenshots! : Comment 274 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 00:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Peter Gordon):
Because he's a patented idiot. All he's done since he appeared on CSAM was trolling, he doesn't rean newspapers or whatch the news by his own admission. Randy Vice can do only one thing: troll! And that's because mom and dad grew tired of him and decided it was better to lock him in his room with a computer.
New screenshots! : Comment 275 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 00:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 193 (Rudi Chiarito):
Rudy,
good to see you after all this time, but I wish it was on a different occasion. Do you have an idea of the cost of one of those CPU's? How much would a couple thousand motherboards with a 64bit CPU do you think would cost to the end user? (And of course their speed has to be comparable to a current 32bit CPU). I think Ben is perfectly right in his assessment.
New screenshots! : Comment 276 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 00:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 195 (Don Cox):
>Are you seriously saying that you would buy a computer based on the
>amount of eye-candy on the desktop/workbench/finder screen?
Yes, little Randy is a troll, of course he would, what does he know?
New screenshots! : Comment 277 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 00:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 208 (Fabio Alemagna):
>I was rather referring to the word "gutter" you used. Pretty insulting word,
>which was referred to the people who come to ANN,
No, it was referred to the level reached by this thread. At least, I think to me it's pretty clear that that's what Ben meant.
New screenshots! : Comment 278 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 01:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 222 (priest):
>Bill McEven was not fully sincere in that interview.... :)
The "interview" wasn't even an interview. That's what happens when you have a colloquial conversation with someone you know and people feel free to publish it on a website without warning you. The guy who wrote an interview never told Bill he was going to write something. Yes, so Bill was bragging with a friend and inflated the story a bit, so what? Who has never done that in their life? Seriously. Frankly I'd get pissed off if I talked to someone and this person wrote things I said on a public place without my authorization, but Bill didn't get pissed off, he's hardly the kind of guy that gets mad. Good for him.
New screenshots! : Comment 279 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 01:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 228 (Fabio Alemagna):
>Evidently you like going to gutters, then... what can I say.
Fabio, knock it off!
New screenshots! : Comment 280 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Rodney Mcdonell on 23-Nov-2002 02:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (Frodon):
Frodon.. You are perfectly aware that you are stiring shit here... Ben is just being sarchasitc, which he is in his perfect right to do so. Your doing nothing good for this thread or for ANN. Your a nonsence, a disturbance, and you make yourself look like nothing more than a thug or a bully.
There are people asking ligitimate questions, there are people answereing, and then theres you.
Take a hint.
We dont want you here...
New screenshots! : Comment 281 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Bullyparade on 23-Nov-2002 02:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 280 (Rodney Mcdonell):
>We dont want you here...
And we don't want you here either.
New screenshots! : Comment 282 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Rudi Chiarito on 23-Nov-2002 03:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 260 (Anonymous):
Yes, the BCM1250 was designed with networking in mind, but so was the G4 (at a different level). There are three MACs, but nothing forces you to attach three Ethernet PHYs. You can even take over the packet queues and bypass Ethernet if you have, say, something else listening on the 1250's GMII pins you'd be otherwise using for Ethernet.
Just because it was originally conceived (in the dotcom days when telecommunications was a much stronger market than it is now) for networking doesn't mean that it's the only purpose it can serve. It is being adopted elsewhere as well.
The only board I am familiar with is Broadcom's 91250 development board, which doesn't support AGP - not needed, there are PCI slots anyway. There are PCI cards with a BCM1250 onboard and of course those usually don't provide AGP, either. It's not a big deal, anyway, because the chip also has a HyperTransport link (faster than AGP 4x, in case you wanted to have the memory closer to the processors) and there are AGP bridges - up to 8x - available for HT.
And Broadcom is working on even better stuff as well.
Rudi
New screenshots! : Comment 283 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Some Farker on 23-Nov-2002 03:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Senex):
@Senex:
>On my Pegasos I've disabled this "feature" since it always bothered me with >MS-Windows. I prefer the Amiga way.
I hate the "Amiga way";I hated it when I used an Amiga on a day to day basis, from 1989 until 1994, and I hate it now when I use amithlon and WinUAE.
Thank *god* the windows are draggable offscreen.
New screenshots! : Comment 284 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Rudi Chiarito on 23-Nov-2002 04:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 275 (amigammc):
Luca, "thanks" to Intel and AMD a 64-bit processor is no longer the big deal it used to be. Today there are so many transistors in the average CPU, for a variety of purposes, that a 64-bit mode no longer makes a substantial difference as in the past. It isn't much more expensive anymore - otherwise the N64, the PS2 and all those MIPS PDAs (like the Casio Cassiopeia you saw in St. Louis) wouldn't have used one.
On the other hand, if you don't see more 64-bit processors on the desktop as you would expect based on the above, it's exactly "thanks" to Intel and AMD, once more: the vast majority of desktop systems uses 32-bit software and so far there haven't been compelling reasons to go beyond that. Either the limits haven't been hit or the workarounds for them haven't been too annoying (e.g. current filesystems and partitioning schemes).
Except for volume of sales, there's no practical reason why a 64-bit CPU or a motherboard for it wouldn't cost pretty much the same as a 32-bit counterpart.
A motherboard might need something like an I/O MMU to perform transfers from/to PCI devices with 32-bit addressing to/from the >32-bit physical addressing space (if the device doesn't support PCI 64-bit double access cycles for addresses, which are an optional feature), but that's really needed only if the motherboard handles and has installed more than 2-4GB of memory. Not realistic for the average user for at least another year or two. By then the overhead cost of an I/O MMU will be even lower - hopefully null, thanks to Hammer. Otherwise there's no difference for the motherboard: the 64-bit address space is virtual, inside the processor.
Rudi
New screenshots! : Comment 285 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 23-Nov-2002 05:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 257 (AlBolone):
> It's a common misunderstandig (like claimed here, too) that you can't
> create something visually good, b/c always some will like it and others won't.
Er, hello, I *am* a professional designer. I think I know what I'm talking
about. (And since I've won multiple first-place awards in my field, it
seems other people think so too. Either that or the bribes really worked. ;)
There's a certain baseline of design where something is either obviously
wrong or it isn't, but beyond that it's really a matter of individual
perception. There are almost as many theories of design as there are
designers. If there had been different judges on different occasions, it's
entirely possible I would never have gotten any awards at all, never mind
first place.
Perhaps it's useful to compare design to writing. With writing, there are
a number of grammatical rules that everybody recognizes. To be acceptable,
your writing must at least follow those rules. Anything beyond that is up
to the reader. One reader can be convinced that a writer is brilliant, but
that same writer can leave another reader cold. That's because people have
different experiences and different perceptions. You can even break those
rules to achieve certain effects, if you know what you're doing.
The best you can ever hope for is to appeal to *most* people, assuming
you're going for a broad market to begin with. There will always, always
be a certain percentage of people who (quite legitimately) think your
brilliant design is crap.
All of which is not to say that Hyperion shouldn't hire a professional,
but that there's a reason for the configurability. And that people should
pay more attention to the configurability and not as much to the examples.
Already we have a bunch of people saying "It sucks!" "No, I like it!" in
this topic. What else can I say? MacOSX had a way higher budget than
Hyperion could dream of, and the same thing happened there. (And personally,
I *don't* really like the look of OSX that much. In some ways it's nice,
but it's not really what I want in an OS design. Though it's better than
WinXP I suppose. And there we go again--that must have had the highest
OS design budget of all time, and there are quite a few people who think
it's downright ugly.)
New screenshots! : Comment 286 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-Nov-2002 08:56 GMT
I've not read the last 100 posts...
But....
STOP
THE
STUPID
FIGHT
!!!
!!!
Grow up guys, gees, Let people work, don't forget we all want
the same thing, don't forget... we're all amigans...
! STOP !
New screenshots! : Comment 287 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by NeRP on 23-Nov-2002 08:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 285 (ehaines):
Very good point, we need to make something like "Windows Prefs" where
you can set all these functions.
I prefer the bottom right corner for resizing, as it's quick and easy
to grab on to, but as someone else stated, holding the CTRL key down
while resizing the window could drag the opposite corner out the
opposite way while the window stayed still. Would make opening a
window quite a bit faster.
Having configurable options in the OS that are all CLEARLY and SIMPLY
located in the Prefs dir is what is important to me.
New screenshots! : Comment 288 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 23-Nov-2002 09:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 280 (Rodney Mcdonell):
Rodney McDonell typed:
>Take a hint. We dont want you here...
Do you have a mouse in your pocket? No? Well, then you only speak for
yourself. Sometimes people might say something that is not totally fair
in some way or another but that is no reason for you to come on with
this junk. As far as I am concerned, people want him here. But I am not
so sure about you!
New screenshots! : Comment 289 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by X on 23-Nov-2002 09:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 287 (NeRP):
About this issue on the windows sizing.
I'm not sure if you people have noticed that this is in fact
part of the MagicCX commodity. You can drag the window from
(IIRC) top-right, bottom-left, bottom-right.
Maybe the OS4 developers should query the author for the
source code. (www.sasg.com)
New screenshots! : Comment 290 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Kulwant Bhogal on 23-Nov-2002 10:07 GMT
I want a file requester that allows switching to thumbnail previews for selecting images (and generates those thumbnails on the fly).
New screenshots! : Comment 291 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by tonyA on 23-Nov-2002 10:45 GMT
NOw where is the important stuff?? WHERE IS DOPUS in os4?? we need it!! we must!!
and since hyperion owns the liscene or what ever... PLEASE add it so we can use it on our and with our os4,
tough it should be INSIDE it (os4) .
wake up!! , as the filemanager stuff in the os, well heh hurray..NOT ..
i know hyperion has talked about it, i dunno what happened but when i see the new shots i saw that the old OS filemanager is and looks the same.
tony
New screenshots! : Comment 292 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 23-Nov-2002 11:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 229 (Anonymous):
"Truth hurts, eh?"
No.
Perhaps it was not clear enough in my post.
About none of what Bill said was true. I hope it's clear now.
New screenshots! : Comment 293 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by smp266 on 23-Nov-2002 11:20 GMT
I guess the name Amiga (friend) is out of date.
A1 should be called Itchy. Pegasos should be called Scratchy.
"They fight, they fight, they fight..."
Towelie says: "If you are going to flame, don't forget to bring a towel."
New screenshots! : Comment 294 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Vidar Langberget on 23-Nov-2002 11:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 275 (amigammc):
There will be "64-bit" motherboards on the market in the first 6 months of 2003 which will retail for less than $100. The slowest Athlon 64's will probably cost $100-200 at launch, and they will eventually become AMD's value offerings when their 0.09 micron process is brought online in H1 2004.
New screenshots! : Comment 295 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 23-Nov-2002 11:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 285 (ehaines):
"All of which is not to say that Hyperion shouldn't hire a professional,
but that there's a reason for the configurability."
I doubt they'll be "hiring" anyone. The budget for OS 4 is two bottle
tops and a bit of string.
But if you would contact Ben and volunteer to make one nice default
setup (AFAIK the GUI module exists in 68k), I'm sure we would all be
grateful. I realise professionals don't like to work for nothing.
New screenshots! : Comment 296 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 23-Nov-2002 11:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 279 (amigammc):
> Fabio, knock it off!
Why don't you?
New screenshots! : Comment 297 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 23-Nov-2002 14:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 272 (amigammc):
Hey Luca, you do realise how stupid that statement is, don't you?
Until the first 68k-based home computer came out, there were none.
Until the first PPC Mac came out, there were no PPC-based home computers.
Until the Amiga1000 came out, there were no home computers with good colour gfx and stereo sound etc.
So you are seriously telling me you want Amiga to be a "me too" and you woudl absolutely hate the thought that Amiga might notch up a "first" by being the "first" 64-bit home computer?
*shakes head*
Of course, it is not going to happen, as 64-bit home computers will start to apear next year based on the AMD 64-bit CPUs.
New screenshots! : Comment 298 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 23-Nov-2002 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 272 (amigammc):
Of course there is.
See <URL:http://store.sun.com/catalog/doc/BrowsePage.jhtml?cid=60357>, for example.
It's cheap, too.
New screenshots! : Comment 299 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 23-Nov-2002 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 284 (Rudi Chiarito):
>It isn't much more expensive anymore - otherwise the N64, the PS2 and all
>those MIPS PDAs (like the Casio Cassiopeia you saw in St. Louis)
>wouldn't have used one.
PS2 has sold nearly 20 million units, N64 is alrso in the range of millions. At a unit sale like that you can afford pretty much any chip. I don't know you, but I frankly don't see Eyetech buying 20 million 64 bit CPU's to make the price drop. And to what advantage? The Xbox is well better than the PS2 and it uses a mere Pentium III. On top of that OS4 would have had to be programmed for a 64 bit processor. Frankly I don't see any advantage in going 64bit *today*
New screenshots! : Comment 300 of 346ANN.lu
Posted by redfox on 23-Nov-2002 15:02 GMT
Yikes ... this thread has sure strayed away from the original topic.
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