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[News] Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents?ANN.lu
Posted on 24-Nov-2002 12:38 GMT by Alkis Tsapanidis (Edited on 2002-11-24 13:51:36 GMT by Christian Kemp)189 comments
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Alkis Tsapanidis points out a comment posted by Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco in the Genesi on /. thread. Thendic (and all affiliated companies) hold a valid worldwide right and license to Amiga DE, the "Amiga" patents, and all associated copyrights and trademarks. This Agreement was signed between ourselves and Bill McEwen on 10 November 2000. The Agreement remains in effect today.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 1 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 24-Nov-2002 11:55 GMT
What benefits would users get out of this ?
Specially on the subject of Pegasos/MorphOS ?
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 2 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by SoVeryTired on 24-Nov-2002 12:11 GMT
Who knows what the future will hold?
I don't, but I do know that I'm tired of all their bloody hinting and beating around the bush. If you've got something to say, come out and say it. Amiga Inc. does this, so why can't you?
Where are there no proper screenshots of MorphOS available? I know they've been to shows and I've even tried them myself, but why not make updates, so people have an idea what's going on? For people who are interested in MOS (other than the ones who've actually bought the betatester boards) it's pretty hard to find unbiased concrete information and to have a look at how MOS actually appears.
I don't understand the people who are pissed of with Amiga Inc. and lick the boots of these people instead. You have to pay them to get information?
From Ben Hermans postings it's also been possible to learn much more about AmigaOS 4 than it has been to learn something about MorphOS. The MOS side is so bloody secretive it's like they've got their own exclusive little club.
Show us the goods or move along.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 3 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 24-Nov-2002 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (SoVeryTired):
Basically, most people "that lick their boots", know lot's about MOS/Pegasos
and have the information they want. That includes me, David, etc...
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 4 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 24-Nov-2002 12:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (SoVeryTired):
And hey, this is best Amiga Tradition ;-) When Amiga worked on their lorraine Prototype,
everyone thoght they `re just making joysticks and games for the VCS ;-))
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 5 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 24-Nov-2002 12:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Hi Alkis,
well you know I am hanging out in the #morphos channel for nearly 2 weeks now and still yet I am missing a lot of informations related to MorphOS. I had a couple of conversations with people in the channel and some of them were willing to sent me screencaps so I could at least summarize up what I like to know but it still left a big open gap here. There are a lot of Questions remaining that I would like to get answered. I also google'd for all sort of information, went on the significant outdated www.morphos.de page, went to zapek.meanmachine.ch, www.morphos-news.de, www.pegasosppc.com and many other places such as www.osnews.com and so on. It was really a hard difficult road to get informations related to MorphOS itself. Please don't misunderstand me but I share some statements from #2 here. Personally remaining questions I have are:
- What exactly is on the MorphOS CD?
- What applications does MorphOS come bundled with? (MUI registered, Browser, Mailer etc...)
- What are the default tools on MorphOS? (HDToolbox, Clock, Calculator, Editor...)
- What technologies does MorphOS support? (TCP/IP stack, PPPOE, PPP etc...)
- How stable is it? (ok a mean question)
- How easy is it to install?
and so on.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 6 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 24-Nov-2002 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (- GALAXY -):
Hi Galaxy long time =) ill awnser some of them for you:
>What exactly is on the MorphOS CD?
MOS 1.0 cd contains a ISO of MOS 1.0 nothing more (yes a ISO dont ask me why)
>What applications does MorphOS come bundled with? (MUI registered, Browser, >Mailer etc...)
As of v1.0 cd! NOTHING not even MUI is regged yet on that CD.
>What are the default tools on MorphOS? (HDToolbox, Clock, Calculator, >Editor...)
Havent checked everything yet but as of now there is still no HDtoolbox clone and you will have to make do with scsiconfig untill theyre Hdtoolbox clone is done.
>What technologies does MorphOS support? (TCP/IP stack, PPPOE, PPP etc...)
Havent had time to get it online yet so dunno
>How stable is it? (ok a mean question)
Beta state! perhaps Alpha.
>How easy is it to install?
for a Joe user NOT very easy and the documentation is non existent you will have to digg online and ask people to find out things like "no it cant reset with the keyboard yet" and "it will only take buffered/registered ram" "you will need to use a NEW hd as the scsiconfig thingy you will have to live with aint exactly the best thing" and several other issues but i wont go in to them now! all around its a nice system with some potential if they do it right but as of NOW it AINT suitable for Joe User its as simple as that! theyre more behind then i thought before i tried it! it acctualy makes me think AROS isnt that far behind.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 7 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 24-Nov-2002 13:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (4pLaY):
bet it aint easy to dig around, as they kick people they dont like off the #
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 8 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 24-Nov-2002 13:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (catohagen):
heh i havent been to theyre channel since! luckily i know CISC enough to talk to him when i need some assistance.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 9 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 24-Nov-2002 14:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (4pLaY):
Users CD wasn't in you hands when you wrote your post.
So, everything you said is wrong.
Sorry.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 10 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 24-Nov-2002 14:10 GMT
wee...i just donated a $1 to amigarealm :)
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 11 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 24-Nov-2002 14:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Nicolas Sallin):
What are you talking about? perhaps i need to take a pic with my digital camera of my pegasos and my MOS cd? would that make things bether?.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 12 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anton Preinsack on 24-Nov-2002 14:14 GMT
I think this posting was a fake. Why should Amiga Inc. sell their Amiga-rights to their opponent? Especially when thy have AmigaOne/AmigaOS4.0 very soon?
Without an official statement either from Amiga Inc. or from Thedic/bplan it isn´t worth to discuss this issue.
Greetings from Vienna
Anton Preinsack
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 13 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Nov-2002 14:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (4pLaY):
i think ive seen this before in a film, its a jedi thing....where you
mind control dudes...like..You.. do.. not..have...the cd !
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 14 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Nov-2002 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anton Preinsack):
think so too...maybe an attempt to distract amiga/hyperion and make delays in
their schedule, so amigans will loose faith eventually...? nah..stupid theory
Genesi dont have a homepage yet(Genesi.com are taken) so its maybe
difficult to make anouncements, so doing it in the gutter suits best
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 15 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 24-Nov-2002 14:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anton Preinsack):
It's no fake because it was discussed in the #morphos channel some hours ago with bbrv present. So I assume it's no fake.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 16 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 24-Nov-2002 14:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anton Preinsack):
It's *NOT* a fake.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 17 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by José on 24-Nov-2002 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Man, this sucks
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 18 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 24-Nov-2002 14:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Nicolas Sallin):
"Users CD wasn't in you hands when you wrote your post.
So, everything you said is wrong. "
In that case, what are the correct answers?
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 19 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 24-Nov-2002 14:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (José):
Can't we all get along now? Come on, let's do one big group hug! :)
Dammy
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 20 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by DaveW on 24-Nov-2002 14:59 GMT
I don't see why some feel this is out of the bounds of possibility.
Useless Amiga patents aside ;-) the issue is license to do exactly what and use trademarks exactly how?
Things just got more interesting.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 21 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2002 15:13 GMT
Here is an official statement that we have made before on Amiga-News:
http://www.amiga-news.de/archiv02/020417_interview_bb_pt.shtml
It says (toward the end): Thendic France: We will release and promote the products whether there is cooperation with Amiga Inc. or not. They have chosen their principal direction with AmigaDE. Great. We have tried to work with them, but we want to do what we want to do -- not what they want to force us to do. It would be wonderful if we could work together, but this is not a precondition for us to move ahead. We would like to cooperate with Amiga. We (Thendic-Germany) were the first organization to achieve an Amiga DE license (our lawyers wrote the license agreement) and we would have been happy to extend our current license --and pre-pay royalties -- but we unfortunately cannot get them to see things our way. Amiga belongs to them so that is their call. We are going ahead anyway.
@all concerned
We signed this agreement with Bill McEwen on 10 November 2000 when we were not competitors, but rather partners. The Agreement gives us a worldwide license for AmigaDE (not the "classic" OS) and use of the "Amiga" patents and trademarks. Under the terms of the Agreement we even have the right to sublicense under certain terms and conditions (which are actually very easy to meet). What has happened since that time is unfortunate, but the Agreement still stands. If we thought there was something useful we could do with Amiga DE we would.
If there is anyone interested in working as a *paid* Developer for this "special" project, that is, bringing MorphOS and Amiga DE together then please contact us. It might be interesting to do, but as before and for the moment now, we do not see the value of such an effort. Please convince us otherwise if we are incorrect.
We appreciate ANN very much. The quality of the posts here can be as good or bad as they are anywhere else. ANN has been of great assistance to us over the last year. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 22 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by DaveW on 24-Nov-2002 15:20 GMT
Yes, I remember that. So what you have is an AmigaDE porting license?
AmigaDE on MorphOS will put the wind up Amiga Inc. if I'm not too much mistaken.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 23 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anton Preinsack on 24-Nov-2002 15:21 GMT
I knew the statement from this interview befor. But it is only a license to use AmigaDE and NOT (as some people here said) to make MorphOS to AmigaOS (or use the name for it) or the right to call Pegasos "Amiga"-whatever. And there is still no agreement for AOS4.0 on Pegasos.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 24 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 24-Nov-2002 15:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Anton Preinsack):
There was some clarification indeed, but Bill Buck still says, that they hive valid Licenses fpr DE, Amiga Patents and vor the Trademark.
But they has no license for classic OS. So no MOSAOS , but it is interesting for OS 4.0 as well
because if they have a valid Amiga License, there should be no reason left for not porting OS 4.0 on Pegasos.
And yes if this is true, that they have a license to use Amiga Trademarks and Patents they can call the Pegasos Amiga Pegasos for example...
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 25 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 24-Nov-2002 15:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Anton Preinsack):
Can we please stop cooking up the same Sauce over and over again ? All matters is there are nice new Hardware and promising new Operating Systems.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 26 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 24-Nov-2002 15:34 GMT
So, they can stick an "AmigaDE Compatible" sticker on
pegasos, but first they have to make/port AmigaDE to morphos ?
Whats AmigaDE today ? I thought they changed name to Amiga Anywhere ?
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 27 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Nov-2002 15:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (4pLaY):
">What exactly is on the MorphOS CD?
MOS 1.0 cd contains a ISO of MOS 1.0 nothing more (yes a ISO dont ask me why) "
ROTFL :) That's funny :)
Nice to read your awnsers tho
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 28 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Nov-2002 15:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Well then, if they had the rights since 2000, why haven't eighter one told this before, if it's really them that posted it, well, i guess they're lying like hell
Amon_Re
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 29 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 24-Nov-2002 15:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Amon_Re):
Its because the rights they have mean very little , they basically have a DE license .. WOW !
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 30 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Nov-2002 15:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (cOrpse):
Exactly, i have no doubt about the DE licence, but i can't believe they'd have a licence to the patents & certainly not to the trademark :)
Amon_Re
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 31 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 24-Nov-2002 15:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Amon_Re):
Actually, they did, in an Interview on Amiga News.
But what is really new, is the License for Amiga Trademarks and Patents.
The only reason what i see is, Afair this License Agreement is between Thendic
Germany (not France) and AI. (Novemeber 2000) Perhaps now as they all merge together to Genesi,
they had a closer look to this agreement and found out, it oncludes also the right for using Amiga Trademark.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 32 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Nov-2002 15:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Bladerunner):
Do you know *any* company dumb enough to sell a licence to their trademark? I don't, i fail to see why *anyone* would do that
Amon_Re
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 33 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 24-Nov-2002 15:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Amon_Re):
"Exactly, i have no doubt about the DE licence, but i can't believe they'd have a licence to the patents &
certainly not to the trademark :) "
If there is a license to run the DE on their OS, that would have to
include use of any patents needed to run it, and a trademark or logo
to put on the box where it says "Runs the Amiga DE".
But it doesn't sem that there is any intention to run the DE on
MorphOS in the forseeable future.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 34 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Nov-2002 15:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Don Cox):
Hmm... that sounds logical Don ;)
To me it looked like they had a right to use the trademark "amiga" any way to seem fit, but it's probably "AmigaDE" :)
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 35 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Nov-2002 15:56 GMT
A quote from someone on another site wich i agree with.
"Your first sentence and last sentence in this paragraph completely contradict each other. You say at first you want to do what you want to do, then criticize them for the same, and yet in turn say you would like to cooperate with them. Cooperation doesn't mean "doing what you want to do" look it up.
In all truth, Thendic/bPlan have had this "Our way or no way" attitude all along, so don't even try to convince me that you are the great innocent one.
If your Morphos and Pegasos are so good a product and you believe in them so much, why are you continuing to LEECH onto anything that has to do with Amiga??? Take your OWN product and make IT into something individual that can stand on its own, and then people may concider it.
But stop trying to be a parasite on Amiga's back just to bring attention to yourself or a product that is not Amiga.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 36 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Steve on 24-Nov-2002 15:57 GMT
Hello,
Just few example of companies that have sold trademarks licenses to
others:
Microsoft: to allow hardware makers to put a "Designed for Microsoft
Windows" stickers (they use the Microsoft Windows trademark so they
need a license)
Palm: TO all the Palm compatible devices makers like Sony,
Handspring...etc to be able to put a "Palm powered device"
And Amiga Inc: To Eyetech and Hyperion for example so they can use the
Amiga name ontheir product :)
It's just few examples, there are plenty of others :)
Regards
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 37 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 24-Nov-2002 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Don Cox):
It seems they only have the right to :
- Port DE to their platform
- Call it DE and not something else
Not to call the Pegasos an Amiga or the next amiga ;)
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 38 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Steve on 24-Nov-2002 15:58 GMT
Hello,
Just few example of companies that have sold trademarks licenses to
others:
Microsoft: to allow hardware makers to put a "Designed for Microsoft
Windows" stickers (they use the Microsoft Windows trademark so they
need a license)
Palm: TO all the Palm compatible devices makers like Sony,
Handspring...etc to be able to put a "Palm powered device"
And Amiga Inc: To Eyetech and Hyperion for example so they can use the
Amiga name ontheir product :)
It's just few examples, there are plenty of others :)
Regards
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 39 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by acg on 24-Nov-2002 15:58 GMT
This hasta be false....
why wait for 2 years to make that kind of statement? After all the flames,
innuendos (sp?), lawsuits, etc...and this is the real story? Take it to
the court of ANN.LU? Yeah, right.....sorry,...show us the goods, start selling real systems, until then we won't wonder what you really "mean"..
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 40 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Steve on 24-Nov-2002 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Anonymous):
Most of the time when you do a partnership it's when you are agree
witht he direction that your partner take.
So if I understand correctly, Bill Buck would have been ready to
cooperate with Amiga Inc if they had gone to the direction Bill have
imagined they would. But as they didn't Bill didn't make a
partnership.
Just like Nokia, Sharp, Sendo...etc had also decided to finaly not
cooperate.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 41 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 24-Nov-2002 16:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (cOrpse):
I don't intend to call the MAI Theron mobo ripoff Amiga either. I don't like being fooled by some license crap. I go for quality than quantity.
So much for my only rant here!
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 42 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anton Preinsack on 24-Nov-2002 16:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Bladerunner):
I think Thedic has the "License for Amiga Trademarks and Patents" only with AmigaDE and they have NOT the right to use it with anythink else. So there wil be NO Amiga-Pegasos (or whatever) and they have still no license for AOS 4.0 on Pegasos.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 43 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 24-Nov-2002 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (cOrpse):
Sorry, but it seems you didn't understand what was written: The AmigaDE license
was to distribute AmigaDE with their hardware. They don't have a licence to
distribute AmigaOS. However they have licensed all Amiga trademarks and
patents. And if that was true than indeed: WOW
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 44 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 24-Nov-2002 16:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Anton Preinsack):
Can't ... Can't... Can't we all just get along?
Dammy
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 45 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 24-Nov-2002 16:34 GMT
This message is presented in an extremely misleading manner. Also note that Thendic at the time negotiated a license with Amiga Inc, when all of the sudden Thendic announced it had licensed the AmigaDE technology.
Only afterwards not to hit their potential partners in the face, Amiga Inc stated Thendic's statement was correct. But according to my insider information, Thendic never met the minimal requirement (paying) for actually getting their license.
It may be better to take these statements with a grain of salt IMO.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 46 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 24-Nov-2002 16:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Anton Preinsack):
That is correct.
The license relating to the patents and trademarks is limited to the AmigaDE.
It does not mean that they can market any products under the Amiga(OS) trademark which are unrelated to the AmigaDE.
(Read: Pegasos, MorphOS etc.)
I have the actual license agreement here, having received a copy of it during my visit to the Thendic office in Paris early this year.
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 47 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 24-Nov-2002 16:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (David Scheibler):
Well, I don't want to place myself of either side and I don't care at all. But I had some semesters Law and Order here in germany.
During that time I learned that If you signed a contract with someone to follow one direction. That is - the one side accepts that direction and the other side accepts that direction too then you signed a contract.
Now if the 2 partners split up because of some disagreements then It's questionable if the contract is still valid.
Isn't this such a situation ?
Example: Parents (P) bought their Kid (K) a new car and gave it to him as present. But this present was tied to the fact that (K) should use this new car to drive to his university every day. So we could say this is a contract between (P) and (K) to follow one target.
Now after some time (K) decided to quit university and start using this car to drive to some working place. (P) found out about that half a year later and want to get the car back from (K) because the present was tied with the fact to drive to the UNI which (K) doesn't do anymore.
Now (K) doesn't want to give out the car and (P) went infront of a court of justice. The judge agreed with (P) and told (K) to give them the car back because (K) broke the contract. No matter if it was a present or not.
Same situation with a House (P) gave the house to (K) with the tied contract that (P) could life in that house until they die. Now after some time (K) got pissed off and want to throw (P) out of the house or into some home for aged people. Now (P) went to the cour of justice and want his house back because (K) broke the contract. The judge gave (P) right and got his house back.
Well I don't want to judge for one or the other here since I don't have the right to do so but from what I learned way back we may have the same situation here.
AmigaINC (A) signed contract with Thendic (T) because of partnership and cooperation to follow one road of AmigaDE with all licenses and stuff. Now under unknown reasons (A) and (T) split up where each of them are following their own business. Now its questionable if the contract is still valid because the situation totally changed.
Anyways I shut up now and keep out :)
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 48 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 24-Nov-2002 16:40 GMT
This whole thread is kind of amusing ...
:-D
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 49 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Nov-2002 16:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Did you pay them a visit again now and got your free pegasos board finally? :)
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 50 of 189ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2002 16:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hi Ben!
Glad we can post together. What Ben just said is almost EXACTLY right (please check Paragraph 4.2)
Now, please come to Paris to pick up the Pegasos we have for you.
...and Mike, why don't you let Ben read the agreement to you and quit posting your opinions everywhere while trying to pass everything off as "journalism."
Sincerely,
R&B
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