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[Web] Aros.org updateANN.lu
Posted on 29-Nov-2002 23:11 GMT by 4pLaY36 comments
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Some new pics have been put online under http://www.aros.org/screenshots.html these include 14 new screenshots of our hdtoolbox clone as well as a picture of the invetor of Zune! (our mui clone) David "Reez" Bondage man! another goodie will SOON be revealed! this weekend if the final touches can be made to our new Mascot! and SHE is cute ;)
Aros.org update : Comment 1 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2002 22:58 GMT
Nice!
Q: Is there a chance that we will se a 68k emulator of any kind some time in the future? That would be really nice! It would make AROS kind of a x86 MorphOS; the 68k is emulated but all the OS functions runs on the new processor natively.
(And bring on the mascots!)
Aros.org update : Comment 2 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 29-Nov-2002 23:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
I dont know how many times this question comes up but its gotta be the nr 1 asked question! and the awnser is the same! as of now we have no plans of this we have much more important things to do! later on? maybe! if someone wants to do it we wont stop them.
Aros.org update : Comment 3 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by onceandforall on 29-Nov-2002 23:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Aros UAE
Aros.org update : Comment 4 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2002 04:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Go ahead, get someone to port Petunia...
Aros.org update : Comment 5 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 30-Nov-2002 04:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Somehow I don't think a project like Petunia that is heavily dependent on PPC
assembler is going to be much use to AROS.
Aros.org update : Comment 6 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (onceandforall):
... but UAE means emulation of an entire "Amiga classic" system, doesn't it? And why would I bother installing AROS only to use UAE, when it is so much easier to just install WinUAE?
It would be *really* nice to have the original Amiga API but with the underlying OS functions in native x86 code instead. As I said, kind of a MorphOS (and OS4 as well, even though the latter won't be entirely rewritten for the new processor) for x86!
And if this is the number 1 asked question; don't you think that all those people may have a point? Look at all the software that has been made for the Amiga over time and then ask yourself how much software there is for AROS. And how much new software will there be made for AROS in the future? Not very much, that's for sure. And this is a crucial question if the system will be useful or useless.
Is there more important things to do? Really? The way I see it, if the system is useless, then *all* your efforts to create AROS over the past time will be in vain. It will be worth nothing!
I have followed the AROS project with great interest, and I am really impressed with the progress made. But how many will bother to install AROS when the only thing you can use it for is to use the calculator, partition HD's, drag windows (and stuff like that)?
Aros.org update : Comment 7 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 30-Nov-2002 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (takemehomegrandma):
Well this is not how we see it! on another note we are a free open source project and we will do what we want when we feel like it! if someone dosent like our aproach theyre free to make theyre own OS or use something else! maybe some of you look on this 68k thing as the nr 1 priority but when youre writting a OS you will understand there are much more important tasks at hand then this! and on a second note its not like we will go bankrupt if no one uses our OS as some other people might ;) we make it the way WE want it to be and if someone else wanna use it GREAT! if not thats theyre problem and not ours! and if there is something you dont like and wanna improve code it youreself! we dont have a staff of 100+ coders ready to take orders! people do this on theyre sparetime as a hobby nothing else.
Aros.org update : Comment 8 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Nov-2002 11:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (takemehomegrandma):
_4play_ has been a bit rude, and forgive him for that, but fundamentally what he said is true.
However, there's another problem, whose explanation we should really put in the FAQ, that doesn't make it possible to build such emulator on the x86 processor without slowing down the _whole_ OS. The explanation is rather simple: endianess.
Now, if you don't know what endianess is, let's it suffice as explanation that it is a characteristic of the processor which states how are bytes stored in memory. The big problem is that x86 and 68k processors use 2 different and opposite ways of storing bytes in memory, therefore when emulating one processor on the other a conversion is needed, which consumes time.
It would be fine if this conversion affected only the emulated app, of course, but fact is that the way AmigaOS is designed doesn't let this happen: _everything_ should work as if the memory was in big endian mode, whilst the x86 processor uses the little endian mode. To do this, one could use a special compiler, like the one that Martin Blom has made in order to compile "native" stuff for Amithlon, but that "native" code is far from being optimal code, and it shows it in terms of worse performances compared to the "real" native code.
If that's acceptable for an emulator, it surely is not for an OS.
Maybe in future an UAE-like solution will be implemented and made more integated with the rest of the system, so that it becomes almost "transparent" to the user, but that's all that can be done about it, on x86.
As for the rest that _4play_ said, although he said it in a rough manner, it's all right: we are an Open Source project, we work on what is more fun, on what appeal us, and on what we believe is worth working on, and we don't feel urgent to work on a 68k emulator, we have to get the OS finished, and we believe in our capabilities enough to think that we'll be able to stand on our own legs, without having to emulate old software.
Aros.org update : Comment 9 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 11:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (4pLaY):
I understand your point, and of course you are free to do things the way you want. I'm not trying to lecture you or anyone else. It's your project and you do what you want with it.
But *my* point is that there actually *could* be a "market" for it (meaning: "demand"). It could actually become useful and wanted by the masses. It could knock Amithlon out of the ring, because it could be so much more than an emulation solution. It could become a third OS distribution on the Amiga platform, and the only one that is x86. But it has to be useful if that is to happen. Today it isn't, and your post signals that there is no ambition among the developers to make it happen in the future either. That's a pity IMHO.
I'm sure that you have some great fun when developing AROS. I'm sure that developing an OS is a very interesting hobby. But that it's all there is. An interesting hobby for you developers, and of no interest to anyone else. And it's nothing wrong with that. I mean, nobody pays you any salaries so nobody has the right to tell you what to do. But wouldn't it feel better if that hobby of yours would result in something useful and wanted, instead of something that will die away in time, totally unused?
Aros.org update : Comment 10 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Nov-2002 11:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Fabio Alemagna):
"Maybe in future an UAE-like solution will be implemented and made more integated with the rest of the
system, so that it becomes almost "transparent" to the user, but
that's all that can be done about it, on x86. "
If AROS won't run Amiga programs, it will have to depend on ports of
the usual Linux software. I can't believe there will be more than a
handful of programs written especially for it.
I do like the look of the Zune GUI. I suppose lots of people will say
it looks outdated, but to me it looks clean, functional and easy to
use.
Aros.org update : Comment 11 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 30-Nov-2002 12:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (takemehomegrandma):
Well of course! it would be great if AROS became BIG! if someone funded a few AROS devs just a few months AROS would become VERY usable indeed! but no one wants to do that and the active devs have jobs and lifes besides AROS and its hard motivating to code for hours and hours when you come home from work/school! but back to the 68k thing! WE feel its enough with UAE inside AROS for old stuff! IF sources can be found nothing would be better then a recompile/fix for AROS! and if not UAE should be more then enough.
Aros.org update : Comment 12 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Nov-2002 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Don Cox):
> If AROS won't run Amiga programs, it will have to depend on ports of
> the usual Linux software. I can't believe there will be more than a
> handful of programs written especially for it.
New software doesn't need to be specifically written for AROS, it can be written with AROS in mind (which basically just means using a few macros here and there, and in future not even that anymore), and compiled without modifications on AmigaOS too.
As for the sw specifically written for AROS, you can bet that it'll exist, I myself will take care of writing a few that I have in mind, which will use the new OO framework.
Aros.org update : Comment 13 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 12:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Fabio Alemagna):
> _4play_ has been a bit rude, and forgive him for that,
Oh, that's OK! Straight forward, yes, but not particularly rude in my eyes.
:-)
> However, there's another problem ... The explanation is rather
> simple: endianess. Now, if you don't know what endianess is, let's it
> suffice as explanation ...
Thank you for the explanation. It helped.
> ... but that "native" code is far from being optimal code, and it shows it
> in terms of worse performances compared to the "real" native code.' ... If that's
> acceptable for an emulator, it surely is not for an OS.
Optimal or not, it sure would fly on a cheap 2GHz x86 system, wouldn't it? But OK, I'll drop this now. I honestly didn't know that there were such big problems involved.
> As for the rest that _4play_ said, although he said it in a rough manner,
> it's all right: we are an Open Source project, we work on what is more fun,
> on what appeal us, and on what we believe is worth working on, and we don't
> feel urgent to work on a 68k emulator, we have to get the OS finished, and
> we believe in our capabilities enough to think that we'll be able to stand
> on our own legs, without having to emulate old software.
I realize that. Do what you have to do. And good luck! :-)
Aros.org update : Comment 14 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 12:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Fabio Alemagna):
> New software doesn't need to be specifically written for AROS, it can be
> written with AROS in mind (which basically just means using a few macros
> here and there, and in future not even that anymore), and compiled without
> modifications on AmigaOS too.
I fear that there won't be *that* much of new software on the Amiga market. But that is a general problem for the whole platform (including OS4 and MorphOS) and not limited to AROS alone. I think that most of the new software will be compiled both for MorphOS and OS4 (and AROS?), but OS4 and MorphOS has the ability to run existing software as well. The question is, will the new software alone be enough?
Aros.org update : Comment 15 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Nov-2002 13:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (takemehomegrandma):
> The question is, will the new software alone be enough?
And the answer is: if not, then the whole Amiga thingy got a big problem to solve. You cannot really think of keeping up with old software for the rest of your life, right? Surely for a live market new software is needed, and if there won't be new software, there won't be a live market either.
Aros.org update : Comment 16 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Nov-2002 13:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (takemehomegrandma):
> Optimal or not, it sure would fly on a cheap 2GHz x86 system, wouldn't it?
Sure, but it could fly even higher and faster if it were really "native".
Hover, the experiment can be done easily: just port AROS to Amithlon ;)
Aros.org update : Comment 17 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Fabio Alemagna):
> Hover, the experiment can be done easily: just port AROS to Amithlon ;)
AHA!! I think we have a winner! :-)
Aros.org update : Comment 18 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 30-Nov-2002 15:07 GMT
Any chance we can see ext2/3 for AROS?
Dammy
Aros.org update : Comment 19 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Crumb //AAT on 30-Nov-2002 15:49 GMT
will you use the OpenPCI.library in AROS? It would be nice
Aros.org update : Comment 20 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 30-Nov-2002 15:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Crumb //AAT):
Sorry but no!
Aros.org update : Comment 21 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 30-Nov-2002 15:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Crumb //AAT):
Sorry but no!
Aros.org update : Comment 22 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 30-Nov-2002 15:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (4pLaY):
Hmm double post sorry about that also ;).
Aros.org update : Comment 23 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Nov-2002 16:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (dammy):
There's always a chance in life, isn't it? :)
Seriously, we have limited resources, and more important stuff to get accomplished first. If someone is willing to have a go at implementing a ext2/3 filesystem, he/she is of course welcome.
If yuou're aware of an open source implementation of such filesystem for AmigaOS, it would be also hellpful, because we could attempt a port.
Aros.org update : Comment 24 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 30-Nov-2002 17:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Fabio Alemagna):
IIRC, there is one for ext2. I had mention this to Bernie sometime ago, I believe he found the source or contacted the author. Not sure which.
Dammy
Aros.org update : Comment 25 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 30-Nov-2002 17:57 GMT
I would just like to point out that AROS is not just an x86 AmigaOS.
AROS has a lot of potential because it could be ported to any CPU.
For example AROS could be:
- the next gen AmigaOS for 68K Amiga.
- If projects like the coldfire CPU card go well AROS could be replace AmigaOS if AmigaOS can not run natively on the coldfire and run natively 68k apps on the coldfire.
- Aros could be used on very cheap CPUs for specialized tasks.
- If tomorrow some company come with a new CPU that blows away everything existing we could have AROS ported to it.
The major issue is having portable applications. I think that in the past the AROS team raised this question. I hope that in the near future we will have opensource "TAO like" technology and use it.
Aros.org update : Comment 26 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Nov-2002 18:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Christophe Decanini):
"The major issue is having portable applications. I think that in the past the AROS team raised this question. I hope that in
the near future we will have opensource "TAO like" technology and use
it."
That would be a good approach. You would also need drivers for various
chipsets etc.
But some means of converting 68k code to this new portable OpenVP is
still needed, so that the new OS can start with a usable library of
software. Aminet contains hundreds of useful and potentially portable
utilities.
Aros.org update : Comment 27 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 21:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Christophe Decanini):
> I would just like to point out that AROS is not just an x86 AmigaOS.
> AROS has a lot of potential because it could be ported to any CPU.
> For example AROS could be:
...
Yes, AROS could be a lot of things! I totally agree in that AROS is exciting and I am impressed with how far it has come. But without applications it will be nothing! Usable or useless, that's the questions ...
> The major issue is having portable applications.
The major issue IMHO is having applications.
> I think that in the past the AROS team raised this question. I hope that in
> the near future we will have opensource "TAO like" technology and use it.
Now *that* would *really* be exciting! But it doesn't take away the need for applications, though ...
Aros.org update : Comment 28 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 30-Nov-2002 21:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Don Cox):
> But some means of converting 68k code to this new portable OpenVP is
> still needed, so that the new OS can start with a usable library of
> software. Aminet contains hundreds of useful and potentially portable
> utilities.
There is that "number one asked question" again. There is a great deal of applications out there that would give the OS a flying start. If there only were a way to use them ...
Aros.org update : Comment 29 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 01-Dec-2002 04:11 GMT
They need an "Elbox" button here:
http://www.aros.org/pics/screenshots/20021129/HDToolBox06.png
Aros.org update : Comment 30 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 01-Dec-2002 04:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
The petunia author no longer owns his work, so this isn't going to happen.
Aros.org update : Comment 31 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 01-Dec-2002 04:22 GMT
Does the AROS virtual machine still work, or does it now only exist as a stand-alone OS?
Aros.org update : Comment 32 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 01-Dec-2002 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (strobe):
it still exists, and will always do so, since it's the main development platform :)
Aros.org update : Comment 33 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 01-Dec-2002 10:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Fabio Alemagna):
How tied to Linux is it? Could I easily port it to Darwin?
Aros.org update : Comment 34 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 01-Dec-2002 18:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (strobe):
You do not need linux to run it, it runs by it self, one floppy disk 1.44k
Aros.org update : Comment 35 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 01-Dec-2002 20:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (strobe):
it's not very tied, in fact it can be used on the bare HW as well, as you already know. It's just a matter of writing the proper drivers.
However, porting it to MacOS X is another story, since you have to fiddle with a different CPU too... it can be done, of course.
Aros.org update : Comment 36 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by It's MEEE!!! on 02-Dec-2002 12:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (strobe):
An "Elbox" button...??
Ah yes that "Elbox" function which trashes your RDB!
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