| [News] "Berniethlon" - The End | ANN.lu |
| Posted on 01-Dec-2002 18:46 GMT by Gareth Knight (Edited on 2002-12-01 21:44:11 GMT by Christian Kemp) | 221 comments
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"It saddens me greatly to announce that, effective today, any of my Amiga-related software development has been mothballed indefinitely. This means that, pending any unexpected developments, there won't be any "Amithlon v2" (aka "Berniethlon"), nor any further support or add ons for "Amithlon v1" by me."
Read more at the Amithlon site
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 101 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 02-Dec-2002 00:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 80 (Hammer):
>A: To release a non-free program is always ethically tainted, but legally there
Why should releasing a non-free program be ETHICALLY TAINTED ? I was aware
of this paragraph and never could agree with it. We have some 30 (?) years of
software developement. Should everybody who ever wrote a program for money
be considered "morally wrong" or IMMORAL ? I can absolutely NOT agree with this attitude.
I think this line should be removed from the next version of the GPL FAQ. Actually I found this quite insulting when I read it the first time.
They don't even give reasons for this !!! WHY this should be "ethically tainted". They just keep like if everybody would understand easily that this
would be "ethically tainted".
And if this would be true, then maybe selling books for money is also
ethically tainted ? (What's so different in the intellectual IP of a book-author and a software-author ?) And selling cars for money is also ethically tainted ?
Maybe you are immoral if you don't give away everything for free ?
Writing programs for money is doing a normal JOB. There is nothing at all
bad in it. Unless maybe in Communism where making money is considered
bad in any case :)
Steffen Haeuser |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 102 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Roj on 02-Dec-2002 00:41 GMT | | Don't buy H&P Products until this mess is sorted out, if it ever is, but don't completely boycott the few remaining Amiga distributors. Any time an Amiga distributor shuts down, it affects EVERYONE with any glimmer of hope in their eye for Amiga. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 103 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Hammer on 02-Dec-2002 00:51 GMT | In reply to Comment 101 (Steffen Haeuser):
@Steffen Haeuser
>Why should releasing a non-free program be ETHICALLY TAINTED ? I was aware
>of this paragraph and never could agree with it. We have some 30 (?) years of
>software developement. Should everybody who ever wrote a program for money
>be considered "morally wrong" or IMMORAL ? I can absolutely NOT agree with >this attitude. (SNIP)
I concur with your statements. The pure blown GPL is probably written by left leaning extremist. The "To release a non-free program is always ethically tainted" statement is inherently subjective. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 104 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by MIKE on 02-Dec-2002 01:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 101 (Steffen Haeuser):
Maybe you should read some of the background about how the GPL came into being, you may come out with a better understanding of why that statement is part of the FAQ. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 105 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by strobe on 02-Dec-2002 01:13 GMT | Well I'm still voting for it.
Sad, sad day... |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 106 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Daniel Miller on 02-Dec-2002 01:15 GMT | In reply to Comment 62 (catohagen):
catohagen typed:
> Will the public ever know whats going on? McEwen/Meyer/Hogget FUD ?
I must say I am surprised to find you on this side of the issue. I guess I am
somewhere in the middle, not knowing who to believe. I read Meyer's statement
and it is sad that he is quitting and said that he quits while continuing to
vilify Frank and H&P, because I just don't believe they are such villains.
Amithlon was a big hit in my local user group, and those who use it the most
seem to be big Bernie Meyer fans. When the dispute was discussed, I asked
"well, what about these other guys who develop and produce Amithlon" the
response is basically that H&P are just shady and Frank hardly developed
anything at all, and it doesn't matter that he started the Amithlon project in
the first place. But something about all that just doesn't sound right.
Anyone who reads my comments knows I am interested mostly in MorphOS, but I
also thought Amithlon was a good product with a LOT of potential. If they
could work on supporting lots of hardware and refining ease-of-use and all that
I really thought they could go places. Maybe they still can. I hope people put
aside their differences and a way is found to continue. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 107 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Bill Hoggett on 02-Dec-2002 01:17 GMT | In reply to Comment 101 (Steffen Haeuser):
@Steffen
> Why should releasing a non-free program be ETHICALLY TAINTED ?
"Free as in speech, not as in beer", as has been pointed out numerous times. It's part of the fundamental policy of the FSF, and one of the reasons the GPL exists in the first place.
Whether "ethically tainted" is too strong a phrase is debatable, but there's nothing difficult or scandalous about the principle involved.
> Writing programs for money is doing a normal JOB. There is nothing at all
> bad in it. Unless maybe in Communism where making money is considered
> bad in any case :)
No, no, no. Writing software for money is not considered bad by the GPL or the FSF. It's the constant misinterpretation of the term "free" that causes the problem. It's "free" as in non-proprietary, not "free" as in gratis. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 108 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 02-Dec-2002 01:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 101 (Steffen Haeuser):
> Why should releasing a non-free program be ETHICALLY TAINTED ? I was aware
> of this paragraph and never could agree with it.
I don't agree with it either, and not even with a few more places in that FAQ similar to that one, but that's what RMS thinks, and he has the right to think it. It's just a matter of opinions, no more no less. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 109 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by strobe on 02-Dec-2002 01:21 GMT | In reply to Comment 39 (Brad Ray):
>Let's help Amiga Inc. and Bernie with our pocketbooks.
Help Amiga Inc. with my pocketbook? Are you INSANE?
I'm keeping my pocketbook close to my chest, lest money be stolen yet again. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 110 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Bill Hoggett on 02-Dec-2002 01:28 GMT | In reply to Comment 106 (Daniel Miller):
@Daniel
Let me point a few things out to you:
1)- you think the actual users in your user group are being unfair. Have you considered that they, as active users, have a pretty good idea who has been giving them support and upgrades and answering their queries and who hasn't? Aren't they perhaps just slightly better positioned to form an opinion than you are?
2)- how much of your support for H&P and Mr Frank is due to their opposition to Amiga Inc? Forgive me for being cynical, but support for them from MOS quarters shot up after the rift with Amiga Inc became public. I wonder why that is?
3)- unlike most of the luminaries in the Amiga "community", Bernie means what he says, and acts on it. If he says development is mothballed and that he will never work with H&P and Mr Frank again, you can bet your bottom dollar that's exactly what will happen, or rather *HAS* happened.
The time for "working something out" is long gone. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 111 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by strobe on 02-Dec-2002 01:32 GMT | In reply to Comment 103 (Hammer):
>I concur with your statements. The pure blown GPL is probably written by left leaning extremist.
Actually all of the FSF members believe in this. That's the whole POINT to the FSF!
It's like saying setting fire to SUVs is only done by the extremist wing of the ETA. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 112 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by strobe on 02-Dec-2002 01:35 GMT | In reply to Comment 107 (Bill Hoggett):
The FSF got their terminology wrong from the very beginning.
GPL software is not free. The GPL can be best described as 'empowering'.
GPL software isn't free software, unless you live in the reality distortion field of the FSF. It's restricted software. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 113 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AmigaUser on 02-Dec-2002 02:03 GMT | In reply to Comment 9 (Chris Hodges):
If a fund is created, I'll contribute.
But I have to be sure it will go to Bernie.
C'mon, folks, throw in with this. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 114 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Christophe Decanini on 02-Dec-2002 02:22 GMT | In reply to Comment 110 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bill Hoggett
" 2)- how much of your support for H&P and Mr Frank is due to their opposition to Amiga Inc? Forgive me for being cynical, but support for them from MOS quarters shot up after the rift with Amiga Inc became public. I wonder why that is? "
Bill, would you please stop smoking your rug ? If there is one company the "MOS quarters" can not stand it is Haage & Partner. It is not Daniel voice his opinion that all the MorphOS users think the same. I was on #MorphOS today and people where as pissed of this situation as in this thread. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 115 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 02:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 7 (MIKE):
>It shouldn't of been posted on amiga.com, if they weren't sure, for that >McEwen can surely be blamed.
Yes, you're right he should be blamed, but really, WHO THE FUCK CARES!?!? I'm so sick of this childish name calling and finger pointing! Can you PLEASE grow up? The problems isn't Bill M., it's H&P so why are you trying to cloud up the discussion here with this BULLSHIT!
H&P are SCUM! I say we boycott ALL their software and I refuse to buy anything from ANY dealer who also sells H&P products! Just say NO to H&P. They have caused more problems within the community then any other company I've ever seen. I wish they could just go away and not bother the Amiga community any more.
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 116 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 03:07 GMT | In reply to Comment 32 (Brad Ray):
I'm with you Brad!
I know the Amithlon/AmigaXL package was a big seller and many dealers might feel the pinch even more if they stop selling it. But the fact is, they have to stop selling because that's the only way the community can put the screwes onto H&P. By hurting them where it counts, the wallet, we can help leverage BM's position into a position where they might be able to work something out. But more importantly we give H&P a clear message that we no longer tolerate their strong armed tactics. Right now, as it stands H&P can simply ignore BM and keep on selling HIS work and keep ALL the profit! Even Amiga Inc is losing income from it's illegal sale of their IP. These actions of H&P are hurting the Amiga market as a whole and it's now in the dealer's hands to put H&P back in their place. If we want the Amiga market to have a future at all we're gonna have to clean it up. To me it seems as if the Amiga market is run by a bunch of ex-KGB colonels who think the cold war is still on! This has got to stop!
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 117 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 03:13 GMT | In reply to Comment 54 (- GALAXY -):
>Well as I said earlier I don't care for Amithlon and how it was used so why do
>you attack me ?
For someone who doesn't care about Amithlon, you sure do spend a lot of time talking about it. So tell us, what DO you care about?!?
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 118 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 02-Dec-2002 03:15 GMT | In reply to Comment 115 (Mike Veroukis):
Mike wrote:
" ... I'm so sick of this childish name calling and finger pointing! Can you PLEASE grow up? ... H&P are SCUM!"
Man, it just gets weirder and weirder .... |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 119 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 03:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 118 (gary_c):
>" ... I'm so sick of this childish name calling and finger pointing! Can you
>PLEASE grow up? ... H&P are SCUM!"
>
>Man, it just gets weirder and weirder ....
Okay, so my wording is a bit questionable. What I'm trying to get across here is we have a situation where AmithlonV2 can not be published becuase of problems caused by H&P and for some reason people like to take the opportunity to put down Bill M. & Amiga Inc. I could post about how it's cold and snowing here in my town and someone will find a way to blame Amiga Inc. This is what I'm getting at by "finger pointing". What I really should have said is that people will take any situation and use it for their own personal political agenda!
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 120 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anon on 02-Dec-2002 03:48 GMT | How quaint. The Amiga community is once again fighting.
Leadership anyone? Doesn't seem to be coming from Amiga Inc.
Community? Linux does quite a bit better job. Amigans just love to eat each other.
Seems that the mistrust and disdain Amiga users have built for other platforms have consumed themselves. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 121 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 02-Dec-2002 04:01 GMT | In reply to Comment 119 (Mike Veroukis):
>H&P are SCUM! I say we boycott ALL their software and I refuse to buy anything
>from ANY dealer who also sells H&P products! Just say NO to H&P. They have
>caused more problems within the community then any other company I've ever
>seen. I wish they could just go away and not bother the Amiga community any
>more.
As you said, please stop the name calling. And please try to refresh your memory before going ahead with such remarks as this one. Oh how short the memory seems to be for some people.
H&P may have done a controversial thing or two in the past (and the latest situation with Bernie is certainly very unfortunate), but there was a time when H&P were the good guys and Phase 5 were the scum (not that they really were scum)... WarpOS, anyone?
And there was a time when H&P brought us OS 3.5, and later OS 3.9 - stuff that has been attributed as an Amiga Inc. success story (even though they did nothing for it)... StormC has been an important development tool and H&P have brought us a bunch of other interesting software as well. More than any other Amiga developer in recent years, I believe.
Now, blame them for their mistakes, that is fine. Question their sincerity if you must. Boycott them if that is what you think you should do. But please don't rewrite the history. H&P is a business, but they were also one of the few beacons of hope for the Amiga community through the latter half of the 1990s. They delivered when very few others did.
H&P believe they have a case. No one seems to be willing to take them to court for it. I feel for Bernie, I really do, and my sympathies are with him rather than H&P. I don't know the truth, but I'm inclined to believe Bernie has a point. However, a fact still remains: H&P has been a very important member of this community and we should at least acknowledge that even if we blast them for what they've done now.
Two wrongs don't make a right. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 122 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 02-Dec-2002 04:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 101 (Steffen Haeuser):
Freedom. Duh.
(Why does Hyperion employ so many retarded people?) |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 123 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 02-Dec-2002 04:28 GMT | Someone in .de want to do some research? Find out how many times Harald has been involved in just this sort of thing.
A lot. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 124 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 02-Dec-2002 04:34 GMT | Do NOT do business with H&P. Point and laugh at Harald. Do NOT do any business with any dealer that continues to exploit Bernie by selling what amounts to stolen code.
Bring to bear the pressure of the marketplace and maintain the pressure. There is nothing, for you Amigas, that you need so badly, that you cannot get it somewhere else or wait until someone does the right thing, for once in a row.
Dammit, people, get some balls for once. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 125 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Jon on 02-Dec-2002 05:18 GMT | In reply to Comment 35 (Manou):
>I know the Amiga market is not the big business market, but how is it
>that free programs like OpenOffice can be programmed and even work
>much better than MS Office and one can't write an AmigaText Prog thats
>working a little bit better than any Wordprocessor we have?
Hmm..I guess you can spend your next 2 to n years in front of your favourite compiler, writing a stupid word processor for 20 potential customers (the rest will pirate it).
The problem is that even if someone actually would be interested to create or port something, he/she might have not enough time. You know, real life, real jobs, real hobbies.. :)
And @39:
AI busy with OS4/A1? Since when?-) I thought it was the Friedens and co coding
their bottoms off. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 126 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Jürgen Lange on 02-Dec-2002 05:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 119 (Mike Veroukis):
Hi Mike,
>" ... I'm so sick of this childish name calling and finger pointing! Can you
>PLEASE grow up? ... H&P are SCUM!"
>
this is name calling and finger pointing, too.
> Okay, so my wording is a bit questionable. What I'm trying to get across
> here is we have a situation where AmithlonV2 can not be published becuase
> of problems caused by H&P and for some reason people like to take the
> opportunity to put down Bill M. & Amiga Inc. I could post about how it's
> cold and snowing here in my town and someone will find a way to blame
> Amiga Inc. This is what I'm getting at by "finger pointing". What I really
> should have said is that people will take any situation and use it for
> their own personal political agenda!
Why do we have a situation where AmithlonV2 can not be published because
of problems caused by H&P? Tell us! Bill McEwen told me that Amithlon V2 by
Bernd Meyer is legal. Perhaps he was wrong.
But where is the problem? How was it possible to stop people like Chris Hodges
or the provider of www.amithlon.net to cooperate with Bernd Meyer as Bernd is
telling on his site?
One thing is very clear for me, Bernd was against this contract with H&P from
the very beginning (according to some e-mails). But he signed it!
Think about it, Mike. Bernd Meyer is an adult person.
Jürgen |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 127 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by dammy on 02-Dec-2002 05:25 GMT | In reply to Comment 126 (Jürgen Lange):
The way Hack&Patch screwed Bernie over (besides never paying the license fees to Amiga Inc) was blocking Bernie from getting a license to P96 since it was under contract For Amithlon. So it's time for the community to give a bit of payback at H&P's lifeline, the retailers.
Dammy |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 128 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Lennart Fridén on 02-Dec-2002 05:38 GMT | Despite not being an Amithlon user, this is VERY sad. If the only way to run a business in Amigaland is to cheat, fraud, and go against your word I regret calling myself an Amigian. This will not help any party still in the market. Sadly, I can't name a single party that can be trusted at all, but then again that shouldn't be a surprise as it all started to degenerate during the days of Commodore. With 10+ years of decay, there's not much healthy flesh left on this carcass, but there's plenty of vultures.
Good luck Bernie!
Good luck anyone still trying fair and square!
And to hell with the rest! |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 129 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by catohagen on 02-Dec-2002 06:05 GMT | In reply to Comment 106 (Daniel Miller):
>I must say I am surprised to find you on this side of the issue.
what do you mean ? side ? Amithlon was a fantastic product, and if
anything could draw people towards the amiga again, it would be
amithlon...
You find it surprising that I support amiga products ?
>Anyone who reads my comments knows I am interested mostly in MorphOS,
thanx for the stupid "morphos hater #1" title you gave me btw..:/ |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 130 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Jürgen Lange on 02-Dec-2002 06:07 GMT | In reply to Comment 127 (dammy):
I don't believe that it is that easy.
The best we can do is to thank all the people that have contributed to Amithlon.
Jürgen |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 131 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Lennart Fridén on 02-Dec-2002 06:13 GMT | In reply to Comment 129 (catohagen):
"thanx for the stupid "morphos hater #1" title you gave me btw..:/"
Don't worry, there are plenty of ANNers wearing that crown without asking for it...;-) |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 132 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kelly Samel on 02-Dec-2002 06:38 GMT | All I can say is that Amiga Inc.
really ought to contact Bernie and
tell him they are ready to release
AmithlonV2 immediately and stand up
to Haage on their OWN ip property
like they have said they would.
Another option would be for Bernie
to release V2 as a shareware product
containing everything required except
the OS,Roms etc. which you provide
yourself from legal copies you
already own, what would be the
problem with this approach? anything?
I assume all ip issues are to do with
the OS Roms etc.? In any case when
a product as good as Amithlon arrives
it should be continued at any cost
including risking legal action from
a small company like Haage&partner...
If Amiga Inc aren't willing to stand
up to Haage on this matter and convince
Bernie to go ahead with release then I
can't see how they will be succesful
in this business...
I really don't blame Harald Frank in
this matter, he did after all contribute
to Amithlon and just decided to stay
with Haage and Bernie didn't, I think
that was his choice to make, but
unfortunately Bernie is the only person
that can really bring this product
forward from what I have seen.
I still think something could be worked
out, people have already offered to pay
for Bernie's trip etc. so I think a shareware
solution would work great. Come on, GO for
it! :) |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 133 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by - GALAXY - on 02-Dec-2002 06:47 GMT | In reply to Comment 132 (Kelly Samel):
Lemme guess, you wrote this on a Palm :) |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 134 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mekanix on 02-Dec-2002 06:59 GMT | In reply to Comment 74 (Sam Smith):
OS4 is a joke, made by the first person to put a dagger in Bernies spine. No chance in hell I'm gonna touch that product. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 135 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mekanix on 02-Dec-2002 07:01 GMT | In reply to Comment 69 (Christophe Decanini):
WinUAE is just an emulator and AROS is moving way beyond Amiga. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 136 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kelly Samel on 02-Dec-2002 07:04 GMT | As a side note I just want to say that Bernie
obviously has been trying hard to get this
product released but the only approach he
has not taken is to ask the community of
Amithlon and Amiga users what direction THEY
would like Amithlon to take. I think in a
small community like the Amiga the users
need to take control away from companies that
do not support the needs and wants of the
small dedicated user base. The people have
the power in the end and we can make things
happen what is Haage or Amiga Inc going to
do? Arrest us all? Let them try... If they
are allowed to bully the market we may
never see products like OS4 who knows when
somebody claims ip violation on that product
and starts another debacle. This kind of
dispute really needs to be ended, it's time
for Amiga Inc. Haage etc. to swallow their
pride and do what is right for us, the
users; and forget about their own agenda that
harms themselves and their customers on all
fronts. No one will want to be involved
with them in any market or product in the
future again. I hope this doesn't come off
as sounding too negative but I consider this
a very important issue and can't understand
why these people can't even work together
on 1 single product's development and release
for the real Amiga users and fans that are
anxiously awaiting some new products to use.
I will personally continue to support the
Amiga market with new software for as long
as I am an Amiga user
(which may well be indefinately) If legal
action is threatened or a company rips you off
somehow just upload the program 100% free and
move on to the next project, support the users
not the companies involved and be happy that
people are enjoying your work. This is about
more than just Amithlon, it's about the entire
state of the market where the original authors
are being cheated everyday. Find the good honest
companies and individuals in the market and
support them all the way. It IS enough to
know that you are doing the right thing in spite
of what some overbloated company may say... |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 137 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 07:44 GMT | In reply to Comment 121 (Anonymous):
>H&P may have done a controversial thing or two in the past (and the latest
>situation with Bernie is certainly very unfortunate), but there was a time
>when H&P were the good guys and Phase 5 were the scum (not that they really
>were scum)... WarpOS, anyone?
That's right, H&P helped cause the first major rift in the Amiga community and it's been downhill ever since. Just like you mentioned the WarpOS fiasco... Phase5 built the hardware but H&P decided to impose their own PPC API/OS?!? Whatever, they seem to cause a lot more trouble then their worth, and their software isn't good enough to have them stick around anyway. The only thing I ever wanted from H&P was Amithlon and they didn't even make that!
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 138 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 07:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 121 (Anonymous):
>H&P has been a very important member of this community and we should at least
>acknowledge that even if we blast them for what they've done now.
I suppose this is where de disagree. I see H&P as a sub-standard company that has done more serious harm to the market then good. I've decided to stay away from their products years ago. Most of their big sellers like OS5 and StormC are mostly re-packages of other freely available software. Big whoopdee-do! Of course in the case of Amithlon they are simply reselling softwre that they have no right to sell in the first place! Wow, what a busines, where do I sign up?!?
If H&P went out of business tomorrow you'd still have gcc and you'd still have all the hacks and extras in OS3.5 and 3.9 on Aminet, HOWEVER, you'd also benefit from a new product; Amithlon v2 (or whatever it would be called, although without H&P in the way it could probably be called that). So that's how I see it.
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 139 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mike Veroukis on 02-Dec-2002 08:03 GMT | In reply to Comment 126 (Jürgen Lange):
>Why do we have a situation where AmithlonV2 can not be published because
>of problems caused by H&P? Tell us! Bill McEwen told me that Amithlon V2 by
>Bernd Meyer is legal. Perhaps he was wrong.
Well, Mr. Meyer himself has stated that McEwen only relayed information given to him that a deal was just around the corner. He believed it was all about to fall into place and so he reported it to us.
However, Bernd has also reported that H&P are also in violation of Amiga Inc's IP. Even if everything was 100% okay with H&P and Bernd Meyer, H&P would still be illegally selling Amithlon as they no longer have a valid license from Amiga Inc. Infact, I believe this is how thise whole fiasco started, is it not? So what does that tell you?!? I think history has shown that those who deal with H&P tend to get burned. H&P seem to think they own the Amiga market and can do whatever they seem fit. This is not the case and they need a good wake up call! If they wanna fall in-line and get their shit together and start playing fair then I won't hold any grudge. I just don't see that happening any time soon.
- Mike |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 140 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Senex (Martin Heine) on 02-Dec-2002 08:05 GMT | How sad... :-(
I, too, won't buy any H&P- or VMC-products in the future (unless there will appear new facts changing my current impression, of course).
I really hope someone will collect money for Bernd (maybe in Aachen?) to let him visit his native country and family together with his girlfriend for christmas. As several people already stated on Amiga-News.de, I as well would donate a contribution to the amount of Amithlon's price.
Thank you very much, Bernd, for all your hard and impressive work!
My best wishes for your future,
Martin.
(PS: So much regarding MOS-fans and their support for Bernie.) |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 141 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Senex on 02-Dec-2002 08:10 GMT | In reply to Comment 137 (Mike Veroukis):
@Mike:
> That's right, H&P helped cause the first
> major rift in the Amiga community and it's
> been downhill ever since. Just like you
> mentioned the WarpOS fiasco...
Thank you for saying this. I didn't want to mention this, because I wanted to avoid yet another MOS-OS4-thread. But I really think that this bad news regarding Amithlon and previous things may reveal the PowerUp-WarpUp-fights in a different light... |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 142 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Bill Hoggett on 02-Dec-2002 08:22 GMT | In reply to Comment 140 (Senex (Martin Heine)):
@Senex
> (PS: So much regarding MOS-fans and their support for Bernie.)
Sorry Martin, and you Christophe. I made a statement that appeared as if it tarred all MorphOS supporters with the same brush. It was not my intention.
However, vocal support for Mr Frank in particular did increase from _certain persons_ in the MorphOS camp when he was vowing to bring down Amiga Inc for telling the world that he had no license to distribute their IP, and for allegedly stealing his IP. It all happened around AmiWest time, and I don't think I'm the only one who believes this was mostly an anti-Amiga Inc exercise rather than a pro-Harald Frank one.
Having said that, and to balance the matter out, I was yesterday asked to provide details of any involvement of MorphOS/Thendic officials in this entire episode. My unequivocal response was that not only do I have no such evidence, but I am not even aware such evidence exists, or that any of the said officials were in any way involved. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 143 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Quantum Amiga on 02-Dec-2002 08:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 136 (Kelly Samel):
Actually Bernie has a licence for the roms and Amiga Inc. IP.
In fact it's the same terms and conditions H & P agreed to with Amiga Inc. back when H & P were first signed as distributors of Amithlon.
The difference is H & P while agreeing to the terms and conditons never signed the contracts or paid any royalties.
Bernie did also agree on the same terms and conditons but he signed the contracts.
What he hasn't got is a licence from the Picasso 96 guys.
He didn't get the Picasso 96 licence because of his ex-partners constantly threatening, abusing and generally giving anyone and everyone a hard time with the promise of even more of a hard time if they had anything to do with Bernie.
There is one individual in particular who was the biggest and loudest threatener. That person has a reputation for over the top abuse and that person even appeared on the Mediator maillist and proceeded to abuse the crap out of everyone simply for the sake of it.
Some people simply thrive on abusing others.
Bad luck eh :-( |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 144 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Don Cox on 02-Dec-2002 08:57 GMT | In reply to Comment 101 (Steffen Haeuser):
"And if this would be true, then maybe selling books for money is also
ethically tainted ? (What's so different in the intellectual IP of a book-author and a software-author ?) And
selling cars for money is also ethically tainted ?
Maybe you are immoral if you don't give away everything for free ? "
That seems to be what Jesus said, but few people follow his advice in
the real world. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 145 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Don Cox on 02-Dec-2002 09:03 GMT | In reply to Comment 104 (MIKE):
"Maybe you should read some of the background about how the GPL came into being, you may come out
with a better understanding of why that statement is part of the FAQ."
I think the underlying idea is that programming should be treated like
scientific research, as something done for the good of the community
as a whole. Programmers, like research workers, would be paid a
regular wage by the state or by foundations, and not paid according to
the number of users of the software.
The alternative view is that coding is a craft, like making jewellery,
and the craftsman should get paid per copy produced.
IMO some software fits one concept, other software fits the other. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 146 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Don Cox on 02-Dec-2002 09:03 GMT | In reply to Comment 104 (MIKE):
"Maybe you should read some of the background about how the GPL came into being, you may come out
with a better understanding of why that statement is part of the FAQ."
I think the underlying idea is that programming should be treated like
scientific research, as something done for the good of the community
as a whole. Programmers, like research workers, would be paid a
regular wage by the state or by foundations, and not paid according to
the number of users of the software.
The alternative view is that coding is a craft, like making jewellery,
and the craftsman should get paid per copy produced.
IMO some software fits one concept, other software fits the other. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 147 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by pixie on 02-Dec-2002 09:04 GMT | Sigh...
This situation is very sad indeed, one of the few coders that actually shipped something for the community, had his work stopped due to H&P & friends...
a shame |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 148 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Bill Hoggett on 02-Dec-2002 09:09 GMT | In reply to Comment 112 (strobe):
@strobe
> The FSF got their terminology wrong from the very beginning.
>
> GPL software is not free. The GPL can be best described as 'empowering'.
>
> GPL software isn't free software, unless you live in the reality distortion
> field of the FSF. It's restricted software.
I suppose that's true if you apply the absolute meaning of free. Then again would that absolute meaning of free apply when talking about a "free society"? Absolute freedom is anarchy, of course.
One thing I have noticed is that those who most complain about the restrictions around the GPL are the ones who want to appropriate free software for their own profit. It's the "it's not free because I can't make it mine" syndrome. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 149 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Don Cox on 02-Dec-2002 09:18 GMT | In reply to Comment 123 (Anonymous):
"Someone in .de want to do some research? Find out how many times Harald has been involved in just this
sort of thing. "
I had never heard of Harald before he started posting on the Amithlon
mailing list(s). My judgement of him is based entirely on the mails
from him that I have read.
It is not favourable. |
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| "Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 150 of 221 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 02-Dec-2002 09:23 GMT | In reply to Comment 107 (Bill Hoggett):
>No, no, no. Writing software for money is not considered bad by the GPL or the
>FSF. It's the constant misinterpretation of the term "free" that causes the
>problem. It's "free" as in non-proprietary, not "free" as in gratis.
Ah, I see. But then I don't see an "ethic" problem about proprietary software either. After all it's the decision of the person who writes the software. Making claims about his moral standards based on if he writes propietary software or not, THAT I call ethically tainted :) If you don't like it - don't use the software. But don't call it "ethically tainted". On the other hand I
see a clear ethic problem with dictating people how they should release their
software (to not be "ethically tainted").
Not everything needs to be free. For some things it is making sense, for some things not. You can also clearly notice this in the way companies use the
GPL. Have a look at (deceased) Loki, for example. Some of their projects
(their games, of course as they were not the licence holders they could not have made them GPL even if they wanted :) ) were Not-GPL, some things (for example OpenAL) were GPL. For some things appropriate, for some things not.
Also it is a clearly subjective statement, and should NOT be in a legal document (and I consider the GPL a legal document, and I guess the same applies to the GPL FAQ). If they think it is not subjective, then they at least need to include clear proof. If they cannot provide proof they should simply remove it.
They can have their opinions without including such stuff in their official
documents (and maybe annoying other people).
Steffen Haeuser |
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