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[News] "Berniethlon" - The EndANN.lu
Posted on 01-Dec-2002 18:46 GMT by Gareth Knight (Edited on 2002-12-01 21:44:11 GMT by Christian Kemp)221 comments
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"It saddens me greatly to announce that, effective today, any of my Amiga-related software development has been mothballed indefinitely. This means that, pending any unexpected developments, there won't be any "Amithlon v2" (aka "Berniethlon"), nor any further support or add ons for "Amithlon v1" by me."
Read more at the Amithlon site

"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 201 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Ed Dana on 02-Dec-2002 21:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 149 (Don Cox):
==========
I had never heard of Harald before he started posting on the Amithlon
mailing list(s). My judgement of him is based entirely on the mails
from him that I have read.
It is not favourable.
==========
Amen, Don. :)
Harald's behavior appears to be that of a spoiled child.
He might be 110% innocent, but he's got a long way to go before he can convince me otherwise....
Regards,
Ed.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 202 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Hammer on 02-Dec-2002 21:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 156 (Bill Hoggett):
>Now, you may feel offended by the philosophy of the FSF, but you cannot >challenge their right to hold to that philosophy, nor can you deny them the >right to say whatever they like according to that philosophy.
What gives them the right to label someone "unethical"?
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 203 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by sarkis simon on 02-Dec-2002 22:13 GMT
amithlon2* was and still is a definite BUY!!!
It was the first on my wish list...
I have four 86's in the house...three laptops with a clean ten gig
hard drive ready for it..
How about a 2 dollar cyber coupon registration drive to get bernie to the
inlaws?
laters
sarkis
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 204 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by .jon on 02-Dec-2002 22:22 GMT
I WANT MY AMITHLON V2 !
:-(
.jon
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 205 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 02-Dec-2002 23:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 198 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> I think most of our customers feel that they want to support us, they paid for
> our work and don't have any intrest in uploading something they paid for to the
> Aminet.
Good for them and good for you. GPL legality issues nonwithstanding, I think
this is more than fair. Even if it's completely legal, people just wanting to
get the sources so that they could play the game for free (as opposed to paying
for the porting effort made by Hyperion and then getting the sources to somehow
expand/ do something creative with it) are just plain cheaps in my book.
In their legal rights for sure, but cheaps nontheless.
.
SlimJim
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 206 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 02-Dec-2002 23:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 204 (.jon):
> I WANT MY AMITHLON V2 !
> :-(
> .jon
=(
I feel your pain. This is a *HUGE* loss! But we've lost something even bigger, Bernd probably won't be involved in the Amiga community much anymore, and that's a great loss as well :(
I hope I'm wrong.
Goddammit. this whole thing pisses me off. Ok I have no life and this little something had me all exited, was really looking forward to V2.
Yo, Frank H, how much would it take to just... buy out your share? Name your price.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 207 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 02-Dec-2002 23:32 GMT
This Quake issue is ridiculous. Once somebody takes Hyperion up on their offer they can upload the source to wherever. And before anybody says it, this is completely ethical since those are the terms ID made explicit.
It's only a matter of time, unless Hyperion is reeeealy slow at processing the mail-in requests.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 208 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 03-Dec-2002 00:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 202 (Hammer):
> What gives them the right to label someone "unethical"?
They don't label "someone", they label the practice. It has been their stance since their inception in 1985, and anybody who does not have their head stuck up their arse knows it full well. If they had not believed as they do, there would have been no FSF and no GPL.
I find it utterly hypocritical that the same people who bitterly complain that they are offended by the FSF philosophy quite happily use and profit from GPL software when they could put their money where their mouth is and opt for non-GPL alternatives at all times. No one is forced to use GPL software, no one is forced to adopt GPL code into their applications. Those people that do, do it of their own free will!
So Richard Stallman's beliefs offend Steffen. Well, Steffen's beliefs offend Stallman. So f###ing what? Who says the FSF, or anyone else for that matter, have to conform to Steffen's opinions about what is professional and what isn't?
If he doesn't like their views, he doesn't have to use their software, or that released under their licence. Simple, innit?
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 209 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Dec-2002 01:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 208 (Bill Hoggett):
What about Stallman's views on body odor?
He has to be stopped at some point |-)
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 210 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 03-Dec-2002 03:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 208 (Bill Hoggett):
>They don't label "someone", they label the practice.
It's implication will degrade the person who practice it.
>It has been their stance since their inception in 1985, and anybody who does >not have their head stuck up their arse knows it full well. If they had not >believed as they do, there would have been no FSF and no GPL.
What about BSD? Why should FSF inception be relevant to the issue at hand?
>I find it utterly hypocritical that the same people who bitterly complain >that they are offended by the FSF philosophy quite happily use and profit >from GPL software when they could put their money where their mouth is and >opt for non-GPL alternatives at all times.
That would be a generalization.
> So Richard Stallman's beliefs offend Steffen. Well, Steffen's beliefs offend
> Stallman. So f###ing what? Who says the FSF, or anyone else for that matter,
> have to conform to Steffen's opinions about what is professional and what
> isn't?
It could have been rewritten with a little diplomacy and tact.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 211 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by freud on 03-Dec-2002 06:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"Our problems were always with Harald Frank who wanted to push Amithlon as an official x86
AmigaOS."
Since when do you have anything to say in this? If it`d be some company`s concern, it would be the name inc`s.
Hm how was it again?
Ben Hermans wrote on 24-May-2002 08:50:30: The only reason why OS 4 is going to happen at all is because there are some 30 dedicated developers slaving away for minimal to no compensation.
Ah, I see how you do business :-D
How did you get those developer so stupid? You must have some amazing convincing skills.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 212 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 03-Dec-2002 07:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 211 (freud):
Have you not heard of the inscription on the ring on Ben's finger?
"One OS to rule them all, One OS to find them, One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"
It's not like we had a choice, you know.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 213 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 03-Dec-2002 08:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 211 (freud):
> How did you get those developer so stupid? You must have some amazing convincing skills
You don't think that perhaps they have a passion for AmigaOS, and a belief that they can bring something truly worthwhile to the world for all those that felt let down by all the crap that we've had to put up with since Commodore died?
Surely that is the motivation behind the developers of ALL the so-called "Amiga successor" operating systems like AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS? Hmm?
But no, obviously they're just stupid because they're not making the OS that you've decided to support. Whatever.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 214 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by freud on 03-Dec-2002 10:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 213 (Peter Gordon):
"Surely that is the motivation behind the developers of ALL the so-called "Amiga successor" operating
systems like AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS? Hmm?"
You make one mistake here. Amigaos is started by a company(companies), in that
case if a company makes coders slave for little to no pay(no matter if it is their
passion or not, or if said company has little funding), it is UNETHICAL to
say the least, to do that.
Programming is a worthy job and os programming even more so and should be rewarded
accordingly. There is in my eyes no excuse for not paying your developers(or paying little).
Besides the whole os4 issue being a viable thing or not, you got to wonder about the quality
of the end product, when developers have little to be motivated by, but a false
sense of hope and passion. Passion doesn`t buy you bread. And I hope they won`t
end up having a bad after taste of that(its not the first time stuff like that happens
in this market).
If a COMPANY asks you to do something you ask something in return, which
reflects what you did PROPERLY. You don`t do something for a company out of
charity, passion, or whatever else (false) feeling, without proper compensation.
In the real world a company actually will take you more seriously if you charge
a healthy fee, it`s that simple. You can leave the free stuff for charity,
gpl and all that(but ofcourse make sure no one leeches off of that).
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 215 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 03-Dec-2002 10:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 214 (freud):
blah blah blah blah blah... *yawn*
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 216 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 03-Dec-2002 10:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 214 (freud):
Hey, it's well known that Hyperion has had to do several side-track jobs to
keep money flowing in. If they hadn't been forced economically to do a lot of
extra Mac-jobs (as well as the PPCBoot), instead of focusing on AOS4 completely,
the releasedate of AOS4 might have looked quite different (we will never know
that of course).
I don't know how well paid the developers are, but I doubt anyone is doing
anything for free. I'm sure all 30 developers are adult enough to negotiate contracts *they* are satisfied with before they start working. There is no
AOS4-money to Hyperion when they are developing it you know - that revenue will come upon release. Maybe a piece of the cake for the developers then? (pure
speculation of course - it's none of our business, really).
The only interesting part (for us, the future users) is that it is being done, really.
.
SlimJim
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 217 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by dunketh on 05-Dec-2002 09:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 200 (Hammer):
This whole situation is absolutley ridiculous.
The Amithlon package was the only credible way for the amiga platform to be kept alive.
Amiga DE - it's a compromise. OS4 - Yeah, but why re-invent the wheel, Amithlon already works on PC architecture without custom cards.
If Amiga Inc had any concept of logical thought they'd offer Mr Meyer permanent employment (at any cost) and sue the arse off H&P.
Go on Bernie, get a job with Microsoft. The Amiga companies have screwed you so tell them to shove it. It'll be a sad loss but no man should have to pay the price you paid for, what was after all, a project soley based on good intentions.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 218 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Walter Miles on 05-Dec-2002 22:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Daniel Miller):
Sorry, Daniel, I'm coming late to this discussion:
From your earlier posting (#106):
DM> Amithlon was a big hit in my local user group, and those who use it the most
DM> seem to be big Bernie Meyer fans. When the dispute was discussed, I asked
DM> "well, what about these other guys who develop and produce Amithlon" the
DM> response is basically that H&P are just shady and Frank hardly developed
DM> anything at all, and it doesn't matter that he started the Amithlon project in
DM> the first place. But something about all that just doesn't sound right.
I'm a members of NCAUG, and I think you've oversimplified our comments.
H&P's integrity has not been unchallenged in the past, and they have
certainly not been open about this situation (a paragraph on their site
and one magazine interview). That and their failure to upgrade the XL
side (my original reason for buying the package :-)) or AmigaWriter
recently, make me distrust them---perhaps I distrust their ABILITY to
produce software or negotiate conflicts even more than their ethics.
Of course, Amiga Inc. has not distinguished itself in this matter
either.
Take Harald's contribution together with his angry mailing list outbursts
and apparent limited success bugfixing or adding support, and it pales
next to Bernie's effort. IMHO, the components of the system supplied or
integrated by Bernie are simply more important. Harald may have started
the project, but I suspect he is not uniquely responsible for the concepts
that give Amithlon it's power. All this without considering the harassment
he has been accused of. His participation mattered, but his negatives
have risen too high.
From your later posting (#157):
DM> Bill Hoggett typed:
BH>> 1)- you think the actual users in your user group are being unfair. Have you
DM> I take your point that they are better versed in it than I am. But some of the
DM> stuff also seem to be on a personal level, ie. they say Frank makes shrill or
DM> annoying comments on the mailing lists.
To a small degree that's true. Without inside information or documentary
evidence, I must rely on my personal impression of the combatants. Bernie
(and Bill Hoggett among others) IMHO have offered more supporting detail
and better constructed arguments for their positions. They have also
carried on the discussion with more grace and humor, and fewer outrageous
objurgations than the other side. So, yeah, it's personal, but with
considerable rational basis.
Harald's tone is not so much "shrill" as incoherent with rage. He has
threatened to remove opponents from the mailing list, and has occasionally
been rude to users who complain or ask questions. The level of his emotional
turmoil makes it hard to judge the basis for his statements. The guy has
had a tough time and I feel sorry for him, but I don't know how you can help
him if he won't calm down.
Again, from your earlier posting (#106)
DM> I read Meyer's statement and it is sad...
DM> ...that he quits while continuing to vilify Frank and H&P...
The nature, intensity and manner of his accusations are mild compared to
what he has been getting from Harald Frank for months.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 219 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Rod on 06-Dec-2002 15:02 GMT
I think this whole thread is a little off-topic but here is my 2p worth.
In comment 101, Steffen Haeuser wrote:
>>[from the GPL FAQ]
>> A: To release a non-free program is always ethically tainted, but legally
>> there
>
> Why should releasing a non-free program be ETHICALLY TAINTED ? I was
> aware of this paragraph and never could agree with it. We have some 30
> (?) years of software developement. Should everybody who ever wrote a
> program for money be considered "morally wrong" or IMMORAL ? I can
> absolutely NOT agree with this attitude.
IIRC, C and C++ are now "free" concepts - but that doesn't mean that all compilers are cost-free! Think of how useful C and C++ are to YOU. Glad that the concepts are free?
> I think this line should be removed from the next version
> of the GPL FAQ. Actually I found this quite insulting when
> I read it the first time. They don't even give reasons for
> this !!! WHY this should be "ethically tainted".
Every action in the world is ethically tainted. We live in a world of many colours, not just black and white.
> They just keep like if everybody would understand easily that
> this would be "ethically tainted".
They also assume that you're going to either be:
a, Grateful that you've just recieved some free software
OR
b, Grateful that you can distribute your software free and still
be protected.
If you're not grateful then you know what to do! :)
> And if this would be true, then maybe selling books for money
> is also ethically tainted?
No - but charging people for one years license to view the bus
timetables that you print, not allowing them to take a copy and
not allowing that person to share timetable information with anyone
else would certainly be construed as ethically dubious - but that's
almost exactly the same deal as some of the software licenses which I
have had to accept over the years.
> Writing programs for money is doing a normal JOB.
I know. It's how I put food on my table.
> There is nothing at all bad in it.
> Unless maybe in Communism where making money is considered
> bad in any case :)
I now realise that you haven't got the first clue about communism either.
Making money is NOT bad unless you do it by unfairly taking advantage
of your comrades.
That's basically bad ethics anyway and is scorned upon in varying degrees by politicians and religous leaders of all descriptions in all countries.
In comment 148, Bill Hoggett wrote:
@strobe
>> The FSF got their terminology wrong from the very beginning.
>>
>> GPL software is not free. The GPL can be best described as 'empowering'.
>>
>> GPL software isn't free software, unless you live in the reality distortion
>> field of the FSF. It's restricted software.
>
> I suppose that's true if you apply the absolute meaning of free. Then again would
> that absolute meaning of free apply when talking about a "free society"? Absolute
> freedom is anarchy, of course.
It's beyond anarchy. In an anarchy, you are still limited in your actions by the actions of others. You're also still limited by the constraints of physical reality. The FSF have come up with a way of circumventing certain restrictions and I think we should all be greateful to them.
> One thing I have noticed is that those who most complain about the restrictions
> around the GPL are the ones who want to appropriate free software for their own profit.
> It's the "it's not free because I can't make it mine" syndrome.
Hey, I think we can narrow it down further than that. The GPL allows you to modify the code
for your own use and NEVER distribute it. So I could go our and write a version of GCC
called Rod-GCC and as long as I never distributed it, it could be mine for ever :)
The people who I see complaining most are the ones that download some code instead of writing their own and then
complain that they have to accept the terms of the GPL. I've rarely heard anyone say "And I don't accept the terms of the GPL, so I rewrote it from scratch"
Regards,
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 220 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Waymon Bailey on 22-Dec-2002 22:50 GMT
I hate to say this, but I spent $139.00 on Amithlon and it's never worked on my Dell 8200 machine.

I would like to actually use the thing before sending off more cash for the "trust fund" or supporting H&P - or anyone else - with more of my money.

It was too expensive to begin with, and I don't much like getting charged for something I don't want, don't need, only to find it doesn't work, and then end up with nothing because lawyers have nixed the entire project.
"Berniethlon" - The End : Comment 221 of 221ANN.lu
Posted by Glenn McVey on 29-Dec-2002 10:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 217 (dunketh):
Before Bernie goes over to Microsoft, Why not try reorganizing a bit.

Assuming Bernie is free and clear of H&P, why couldn't he simply get an IP licence agreement directly from AI and let them (AI) distribute the "thing".

As for AI, I reported poor biziness practices of a dealer (mentioned previously on this site) to AI and their response was that they had never heard of any problems with them. That is not the response I had hoped for.

G.
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