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[Web] Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQANN.lu
Posted on 03-Dec-2002 20:40 GMT by NihilVor55 comments
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He discuses what went on behind the scenes, the impossibility of making Amithlon open source, and he also directly responds to questions proposed here at ann.lu.
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Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 1 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 03-Dec-2002 20:46 GMT
No video?
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 2 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Dec-2002 20:54 GMT
So Amiga Inc. screwed H&P, and now H&P wants to screw Amiga Inc.
Sorry, but the only people getting screwed are the Amigans!
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 3 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by reflect on 03-Dec-2002 21:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (strobe):
seriously, isn't there anything the amigans can do, besides not buying their products?
what about usergroups..?
If they take over responsibility, while BM continues his work? all legal battles goes through the usergroup, they are legal entities.. but most have no assets whatsoever.
there ought to be SOMETHING we can do! wasn't the community once so famous for its spirit? time to bring a little of that back and actually start to show support, one way or the other.
if anyone has a suggestion, let's discuss it and see if we can't find a way..
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 4 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by NihilVor on 03-Dec-2002 21:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (strobe):
So Amiga Inc. screwed H&P, and now H&P wants to screw Amiga Inc.
What makes you say that? It is not how I read it (see question #3 of the FAQ). Amiga got screwed by H&P. Bernie obviously wants Amiga to screw H&P, but if they don't want to protect their IP, I guess it is really their choice.
>Sorry, but the only people getting screwed are the Amigans!
True enough.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 5 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by NihilVor on 03-Dec-2002 21:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (NihilVor):
A little too much screwing? :-)
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 6 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Dec-2002 22:45 GMT
Amigans have been screwed so often they can sit on a fire hydrant without wincing.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 7 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Dec-2002 23:00 GMT
H&P is lose.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 8 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas W on 03-Dec-2002 23:35 GMT
What I don't understand is this:
If all the work in "Berniethlon" is his own, and the only part that H&P has anything to do with is the minimal 3.9 installation, then what is to stop him from making a deal directly with Amiga regarding the Amiga IP, find a distributor and ship Berniethlon without worrying a bit about H&P?
Heck, I would even try to help set up distribution channels if that would help him out.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 9 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Dec-2002 23:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Thomas W):
Nothing except harassment.
Here's a fun one, if someone is stalking you, what's to prevent you from going out for a jog at 3am on a moonless winter night? Not so ethusiastic? But you are legally entitled to do that, if the stalker jumps you then you'll be able to sue them.
OK, now you have the right mental picture I think. There are a lot of jerks in the Amiga community. In fact long after most of the nicer people left the jerks are still around. Bernie apparently assumed that the jerks would leave him alone, and he was wrong about that. Now he has no reason to do any further business with anyone connected to the Amiga. Sounds sane to me.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 10 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Cheney on 04-Dec-2002 00:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (reflect):
...sell the rights to an American Indian
tribe, with proviso that Bernie continues
for xxx years to improve it. Not enuff
lawyers in all the hinterland to get near
a tribal council, and certainly none brave
enuff, and every comunique from an "H",
should be lit on fire to start the barbie
for a good pot of wallaby stew, filmed,
with mpeg sent to Aminet, with lots of evil
"bw...BWW...BWAHAHAHAhaha"s...
btw...some rich casino/lawyer laden tribes
not far from Snoqualmie
8')
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 11 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 04-Dec-2002 00:44 GMT
How about this:
What if he sells the code to ME for money, and then I open source it.
I could gather contributions via PayPal or whatnot then exchange it as a lump sum for his code.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 12 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 04-Dec-2002 00:58 GMT
Stop throwing dirt, Bernd. You know that it's not true what you're writing here.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 13 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by x on 04-Dec-2002 01:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (strobe):
In case you are serious:
I doubt we will be able to raise that
kind of a sum. I don't think Bernie
will sell it for peanuts.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 14 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Brad Ray on 04-Dec-2002 01:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (anonymous):
Hey, Mr. anonymous,
Do you have any facts to back your theory up?
Of course not.
But I bet I know who Mr. Anonymous is. :)
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 15 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 04-Dec-2002 01:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (x):
The first part would be finding out what sum would he give it up for.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 16 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by x on 04-Dec-2002 01:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (strobe):
Yes, it would be such a waste for the Umilator
to be sitting on a backup tape collecting dust...
Maybe you should approach him after he has cooled
down a bit... :) Always worth a try.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 17 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 04-Dec-2002 01:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (x):
Tape? Damn, Amigans really are retro |-)
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 18 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by TBone on 04-Dec-2002 01:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (anonymous):
> Stop throwing dirt, Bernd. You know that it's not true what you're writing here.
Hey look, it's our friend from Germany. Feel free to counter any of what he's written, we're all ears, and would love to hear it.
What, specifically, isn't true? You're not going to call him a liar, and then not identify what you call a "lie" are you?
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 19 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by TBone on 04-Dec-2002 01:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (TBone):
> Feel free to counter any of what he's written, we're all ears, and would love to hear it.
As a matter of fact, we insist.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 20 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 04-Dec-2002 02:00 GMT
Concerning ainc`s ip, which I guess refers to amigaos, it`s rather unsure if ainc,
or gateway has any rights to the amigaos ip. Also they have haven`t yet defended it.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 21 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 04-Dec-2002 02:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (amorel):
They haven't defended the IP yet, and that is a problem, at least as I see it. I posted to the AmigaOne mailing list about this, in response to Gary Peake, who says Bernie's problems are clearly aimed at Harald Frank and H&P. I would counter that the real core of the problem lies between Amiga Inc. and H&P. Amiga Inc. don't seem to be willing to stand up and defend their IP (unless you count making press releases and speeches at shows)....see my post below:
--
Hi Gary, if you go far enough back the reason why Bernie is in this
situation is because H&P did not have (according to Amiga Inc.) properly
licensed Kickstart and Workbench. Bernie was informed by Amiga Inc. that
this product was in violation of that IP so he did not want to potentially
be held liable for this (being party to the contract with HP). Therefore
Bernie tried to exit the contract, which is where all the problems began...
So it would seem, at least from an outsiders view and customers view, that
the entire situation is in fact a problem with H&P and Amiga Inc. If there
was valid licensing agreements from the beginning none of this would have
happened.
Therefore if the above is true it would seem so to the customers that Amiga
Inc is not protecting their IP by settling the issue with H&P. That is what
alot of customers think right now. If this is wrong I think that should be
clarified...
Many people think, now, that Amiga Inc has let Bernie down, and thus also
the customers (Bill McEwan did announce in his executive update the new
Amithlon product) by not following through with enforcing the original IP
agreement with H&P.
Darren
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 22 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 04-Dec-2002 02:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Darren Eveland):
Which makes me think he chickened out a bit too soon, when ainc complained about the
ip issue. That ainc hasn`t defended it yet is a sure sign they have little ground
to stand on. They can`t defend it afaics. I would go as far as suspecting h&p is
doing nothing illegal by selling software containg the amiga os ip, without a license
from ainc.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 23 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 04-Dec-2002 02:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (strobe):
H&P tried to screw Amiga or managed to... and I feel bad for Bernie.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 24 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 04-Dec-2002 02:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (amorel):
If Amiga doesn not have the copyright to AmigaOS who does? Your grandmother? Oh, let me guess, Thendic!
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 25 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 04-Dec-2002 02:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
Do you ALWAYS have to come up with a bucket of BS?
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 26 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by TBone on 04-Dec-2002 02:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
> I would go as far as suspecting h&p is
> doing nothing illegal by selling software
> containg the amiga os ip, without a license
> from ainc.
You would "go that far?" why?
H&P obviously don't mind selling software without a license, just take a look at how Amithlon is still being distributed.
Or the TCPIP package in OS3.9? Or the GPL "uncompilable" sources for AmigaXL.
Your suspicion seems unfounded, especially when the precidents H&P have set suggest otherwise.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 27 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 04-Dec-2002 03:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (TBone):
I agree. Patience Grasshopper(s). The situation will clearly not be dictated by this peanut gallery. All in good time.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 28 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Dec-2002 04:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (anonymous):
Well, one thing's for sure. H&P and VMC were well aware of Bernie's Dec 1 deadline.
ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1038507179&category=files&start=1&12#message7
But obviously, they don't care since they know neither Amiga Inc or Bernie can afford to take them to court.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 29 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Targhan on 04-Dec-2002 04:35 GMT
It all looks bad, but oddly enough... I find a very interesting
tibtit in this faq stating that Bill McEwen doesn't actually own Amiga
Inc, and no actual owner is named. Amiga isn't public, so someone or
some entity does own it. Now, any brave souls care to figure this
out?
Targhan
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 30 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 04-Dec-2002 05:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Targhan):
Just to (hopefully) prevent any misunderstandings: I have no more knowledge of the ownership structure of Amiga Inc than anybody else. That comment was simply based on the normal venture capital practices. Especially considering how tight money has been in the past, it is extremely unlikely that anybody but the investors own a controlling stake in Amiga Inc.
But as I said, that's just based on common sense, not any kind of inside knowledge.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 31 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Targhan on 04-Dec-2002 05:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Bernd Meyer):
Oh, ok. Yes, with the tight technical market right now, it does make sense. I know that I've lost my job, and it wasn't the Amiga related one... :-( The big bubble busted.
Targhan
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 32 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by mark on 04-Dec-2002 05:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Targhan):
Sharp, Nokia, Gateway(sale could have been conditional on producing something), a group of dentist in florida, M$, TAO, Eyetech, the list goes on and on.This has gone on long enough.
Sick of this Nonsence
Mark
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 33 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Targhan on 04-Dec-2002 06:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (mark):
QuickPak! VisCorp! Dick van Dyke!!
(nyuk nyuk)
Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 34 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 04-Dec-2002 06:08 GMT
<GrowingHitList>Mehdi Ali, DCE, H&P, Elbox</GrowingHitList>
The way people are screwed in this "community" makes Bill Gates look like a nice chap.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 35 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Ace2k on 04-Dec-2002 06:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Bernd Meyer):
Bernie,
Just make a deal with AmigaInc and sell your product at the Amiga Mall.
I am sure they are keen to get this settled asap.
I want one now, wher can I send a cheque :)
Good luck
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 36 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 04-Dec-2002 06:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
>Here's a fun one, if someone is stalking you, what's to prevent you from going
>out for a jog at 3am on a moonless winter night? Not so ethusiastic? But you >are legally entitled to do that, if the stalker jumps you then you'll be able
>to sue them.
And Isrealies put thier lives on the line every time they go to a cafe or go on a bus, but they keep doing so because not doing so would mean giving in to their enemy.
Personally, I believe there's more to it simply because I know if someone like H&P was harassing me I'd make them wish they didn't. The last thing I'd do is throw in the towel.
- Mike
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 37 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 04-Dec-2002 06:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
>Which makes me think he chickened out a bit too soon, when ainc complained
>about the ip issue. That ainc hasn`t defended it yet is a sure sign they have
>little ground to stand on. They can`t defend it afaics. I would go as far as
>suspecting h&p is doing nothing illegal by selling software containg the amiga
>os ip, without a license from ainc.
H&P has about as much right selling Amiga Inc IP as I do. The fact that Amiga Inc hasn't defended it is a sure sign of nothing at all, and even if it was I doub't you'd figure it out on your own.
I will say this, Amiga Inc better find a way to defend their IP. It's quite possible that they really did believe a solution outside of court was just around the corner. It's also possible they are simply too busy with OS4/DE. It's also possible they are simply drafting up law suits as we speak. It's not like Amiga Inc's lawyers are gonna post on ANN what they're thinking! However, I do think that at the very least they should get an injuction to stop the sale of Amithlon and to enforce it on all the dealers.
- Mike
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 38 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 04-Dec-2002 06:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Targhan):
>Oh, ok. Yes, with the tight technical market right now, it does make sense. I
>know that I've lost my job, and it wasn't the Amiga related one... :-( The big
>bubble busted.
Join the club! Anyone need a C++ or PowerBuilder programmer?!?
- Mike
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 39 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Dec-2002 07:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mike Veroukis):
"Personally, I believe there's more to it simply because I know if someone like H&P was harassing me I'd make them wish they didn't. The last thing I'd do is throw in the towel."
That's called a vendetta, and if you really feel that way at this point it's a good sign that you have psychopathic tendencies since of course empathy should ordinarily prevent you from embarking on such a destructive course.
NB I am not a doctor, this is not medical advice etc. etc.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 40 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Jope on 04-Dec-2002 08:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (strobe):
Damn enterprise computing is retro, using those DLT robots to do backups. Surely they should burn everything on CD-R or DVD-R! :-)
DLT is king, in the enterprise and even in smaller servers.. Don't think about DDT or QIC or Travan some other small format that deserve to be laughed upon.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 41 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by It's MEEE on 04-Dec-2002 10:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mike Veroukis):
Agree!
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 42 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by It's MEEEE on 04-Dec-2002 10:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Jope):
DLT RULES!
What's bad is WinNT!
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 43 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Dec-2002 15:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (strobe):
Well backupping to tape is not retro in anyway :) Haven't you seen any modern tape-drives ?
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 44 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by ne_one on 04-Dec-2002 17:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Thomas W):
@Thomas W
"If all the work in "Berniethlon" is his own, and the only part that H&P has anything to do with is the minimal 3.9 installation, then what is to stop him from making a deal directly with Amiga regarding the Amiga IP, find a distributor and ship Berniethlon without worrying a bit about H&P?"
Presumably H&P thinks otherwise.
Bernie: could you address this in your FAQ if you get a moment?
Another thought: given what you've endured are you riding off into the sunset? Or would you ever entertain Amiga development in any capacity?
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 45 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Quantum Amiga on 04-Dec-2002 19:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (ne_one):
Bernie HAS a licence for Amiga Inc. IP. He's had it for months.
He also has a distribution channel set up and ready to go.
What he doesn't have is a licence for P96. The P96 crew won't give him a licence
because they are being threatened by H&P and Harald and don't want the hassle.
Bernie could just release anyway but then he wouldn't be respecting the P96
crews IP. Bernie won't do this because he does respect other peoples IP.
You cannot say the same for H&P can you. They don't have a licence for
Amiga Inc.IP and I'd say they never intended to take a licence and pay royalties.
They also cannot (or won't) supply the correct compilable sources to AmigaXL as
required by the GPL licence AmigaXL was produced under.
Strange that they produce a program and say they will comply with the licence yet don't.
But then again look at their track record...reaction....Genisis....Amithlon.... AmigaXL.
And Harald is a raving loony. I recon his idea of a good time to to abuse poor crippled kids.
Cheers :-)
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 46 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Ace2k on 04-Dec-2002 20:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Quantum Amiga):
>What he doesn't have is a licence for P96. The P96 crew won't give him a >licence
>because they are being threatened by H&P and Harald and don't want the hassle.
No, Bernie does *have* a P96 licence - go ask him !
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 47 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Quantum Amiga on 04-Dec-2002 20:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Ace2k):
Does he ?
Last time I spoke with him at our user group meeting P96 was an issue and
he wasn't going to release without their approval.
Cheers :-)
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 48 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by TBone on 04-Dec-2002 21:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Anonymous):
re: "that's a vendetta"
No, it's called a "reaction"
If someone punches me and I hit back, that's not a vendetta.
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 49 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 04-Dec-2002 22:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Mike Veroukis):
Mike Veroukis typed:
> H&P has about as much right selling Amiga Inc IP as I do. The fact that
> Amiga Inc hasn't defended it is a sure sign of nothing at all, and even if
> it was I doub't you'd figure it out on your own. I will say this, Amiga Inc
> better find a way to defend their IP. It's quite possible that they really
> did believe a solution outside of court was just around the corner. It's
> also possible they are simply too busy with OS4/DE
A German judge ruled that former Amiga owner Escom did not demonstrate
ownership of OS 3.1, which would mean Escom couldn't sell it to Gateway, which
would mean Gateway couldn't sell it to Bill McEwen, who heads Amiga Inc.
A lot of people who express their views on public bulletin boards like ANN
aren't aware of this ruling, but I imagine H&P and Amiga Inc. are.
It is generally accepted though that Amiga Inc. has ownership of the trademark
"Amiga," in the same sense that Kimberly-Clarke corporation owns "Kleenex." If
the word "Amiga" was featured prominently in the Amithlon packaging, then this
would be pretty clearly a use of the trademark. Is it?
Bernie's Amithlon Deathbed FAQ : Comment 50 of 55ANN.lu
Posted by Hammer on 05-Dec-2002 00:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Daniel Miller):
>A German judge ruled that former Amiga owner Escom did not demonstrate
>ownership of OS 3.1, which would mean Escom couldn't sell it to Gateway, >which would mean Gateway couldn't sell it to Bill McEwen, who heads Amiga Inc.
Who actually own AmigaOS 3.1? Are you implying CBM still owns the said IP?
I recall, my AmigaOS 3.0 was originally copyrighted to Commodore-Amiga Inc.
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