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[News] Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressionsANN.lu
Posted on 07-Dec-2002 19:27 GMT by Diermar Eilert (Edited on 2002-12-08 02:55:19 GMT by Christophe Decanini)230 comments
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It took place in a large congress room in Aachen's Eurogress. At 16:00, it was pretty crowded in terms of visitors ...

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Just a few words about the Amiga Retro event today, I've been there for an hour or so this afternoon:

It took place in a large congress room in Aachen's Eurogress. At 16:00, it was pretty crowded in terms of visitors, maybe 100-200 people, but pretty empty in terms of dealers. If you mentally subtract Thendic, who took up 50% of the space, the whole affair would have fitted into a grocery store. Well, I guess that reflects the state of the market.

I saw one Amiga One. Maybe there were more, I didn't look hard. The one I saw didn't do anything to get exited about (a pc-style box, obviously no AmigaOS 4, bulky mainboard).

The Thendic people were at the center of attention, having something exiting to show. I don't know how many Pegasos boxes they had with them, but there were lots of them for trial. Morphos looks great, their Ambient workbench is visually stunning. A large amount of money must have gone into the direction of designers, the icons are all ultra-professional, 3D, 24bit, raytraced. If you are ever going to write software for Morphos and plan to have equally good icons, you have your work laid out for you ;-) The overall design reminds me of NeXt. Nevertheless, everything is still quite basic in terms of operating systems: I didn't see a file manager or other things I would expect with an OS. For example, an equally well-designed "Start" bar would have been nice.

Unfortunately, their boxes only had PPC native software installed or I was too dumb to find regular 68K software. I've tried for twenty minutes to find a bug, cause a crash etc. but no luck: Morphos looks fine to me with that selection of software. I would have rather testet it with "normal" software though.

Some Pegaos boxes were open, you could see the April fix and the small mainboard. It's a micro-atx-sized board, you probably have to see it to realize how small it is. If mainboards were sold on optical merits, the Amiga One would be dead. I don't understand why Tendic choose a big aluminium case for it: yes, it looks nice but if you have such a small mainboard, why not advertise the possibilities of small dimensions ?

Conclusion: Pegasos/Morphos is much more advanced than I though before. If it's all pure PPC, the worst is clearly over for them. They seem to have a nice usable small OS. What's left for them to do is to provide more "middleware" to get rid of the basic feel. I mean the small tools that normally ship with an OS: file manager, calculators, whatever. Nothing complicated.

Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 1 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 07-Dec-2002 18:37 GMT
"smaller case"
Hmm there was the mircowave, and that (rather ugly) Pegasos-in-TFT-base machine,
a bit like the new iMac, with corners instead of curves.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 2 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Dec-2002 18:42 GMT
I wished that the author of this post would have put his name.
He can still add a comment here so we can fix the post.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 3 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Dec-2002 18:47 GMT
Any MorphOS feature-list ?
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 4 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 07-Dec-2002 18:51 GMT
so finally thendic figured out to remove/not install amiga software :)
with mos binarys, morphos is pretty stabile....glad we finally can put that
issue away :)
and we've been promisted a featurelist next week....some more screenshots
of morphos skinning feature would be nice too :)
When will OS4 have skinning ?
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 5 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by me was there too on 07-Dec-2002 18:57 GMT
I've seen Steffen Häuser of Hyperion shooting photos of the Pegasos and Morphos with his digicam :)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 6 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Dec-2002 19:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
> Any MorphOS feature-list ?
I believe this release of MorphOS is more about having a PPC-native version of AmigaOS, so you better be satisfied with seeing your good old OS on PPC hardware, cleanly implemented, no hacks, moderatly modernized in terms of technicalities, noticeably modernized in terms of the appearance. There do not seem to be (m)any uber-features that will take your breath away. On the other hand, much of what is lacking in AmigaOS does not relate to the OS anyway, it's more a deficit in applications. So instead of asking for a Morphos feature list, you should rather ask about a Morphos applications list.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 7 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Dec-2002 19:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (me was there too):
Nobody was wearing name tags, that was kind of depressing. Hearing the French speak English to Germans was funny (Quark then sounds more like Quake and that clearly leads to complications :-).
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 8 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 07-Dec-2002 19:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
im very interested in a list that takes up the features of the os...
I know from various mos-people that morphos is a cleanly re-written amiga-ish
OS, but I think many people would know spesific stuff, like :
*features of their rewritten exec and all its functions
*features of its filesystem, recoverytools, hd preperation (hdtoolbox ?)
*the tcp/ip stack, features and supported hardware, multiple network cards ?
*the graphics system and 2d/3d features, supported hardware with drivers 2d/3d
*what firewire hardware is supported or apps that can use firewire,
since firewire is the reason many said they choose Pegasos.
also a list of apps included in Morphos (movieplayer/audioplayer/pdf software/printer software?)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 9 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Dec-2002 20:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (me was there too):
> I've seen Steffen Häuser of Hyperion shooting photos of the Pegasos and
> Morphos with his digicam :)
I thought they would have bought one of their own Pegasos'es by now. Even if they say they won't develop for it, I think it would make sense to have a look at the competition. Genesi has an A1, presumably for that reason. But who knows, maybe Hyperion allready have one (in fact, I think that is the case, it would be strange if they didn't).
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 10 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Dec-2002 20:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
Exactly! Everyone who is familiar with Amiga OS is familiar with MorphOS. It's pretty much the same thing, only so much faster. The same "small things" (like calculators, file managers, etc) that's available for AmigaOS is also available for MorphOS. Just buy it/download it and use the way you are used to.
I have not heard anything about the bundling of third party applications yet (I have not been to the show), but I am sure that bundles will be available. If not now, then in some time ...
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 11 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Dec-2002 20:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (catohagen):
> with mos binarys, morphos is pretty stabile....glad we finally can put that
issue away :)
That issue was put away long time ago. Buggy applications will crash AmigaOS3.x, MorphOS, and OS4 aswell!
> some more screenshots of morphos skinning feature would be nice too :)
Screenshots never say much. Seeing the thing in action does!
> When will OS4 have skinning ?
When there is an OS4?
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 12 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Dec-2002 20:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (takemehomegrandma):
If they still havent't claimed the one offered by Thendic, please Thendic, give it to me :-)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 13 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 07-Dec-2002 20:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (takemehomegrandma):
>Exactly! Everyone who is familiar with Amiga OS is familiar with MorphOS.
>It's pretty much the same thing, only so much faster. The same "small things"
>(like calculators, file managers, etc) that's available for AmigaOS is
>also available for MorphOS. Just buy it/download it and use the way you
>are used to.
Every OS on the planet have most of these things included, to quote BB :
"
If you guys haven't noticed there has been a significant investment
here -- lots of money going out and none coming in.  The Amiga market
and the 200 regular visitors to the common watering holes (ANN,
amiga.org, etc.) is NOT the future.  We need new people here.  That
should be our focus.
R&B "
so it needs to be provided to these new people, new people will not accept
to go out and buy most basic tools, when other operating systems bundle
this in the package...
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 14 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 07-Dec-2002 20:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (takemehomegrandma):
So my amiga tools are going to run on it?
coldfire
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 15 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 07-Dec-2002 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (takemehomegrandma):
>When there is an OS4?
no, OS4 (when released) wont have skinning, applying textures to backgrounds
and buttons aint skinning..
Skinning is more than that, go look at some skinning/theme site for linux
and you'll see what skinning are..
But I guess its all depends on a person's definition of skinning, if
existing birdie/visualprefs stuff are your view of skinning, then OS4 have
skinning too..:)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 16 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 07-Dec-2002 20:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (catohagen):
Genesi plan to recoup their investment by:
LinuxPPC and a little MorphOS for Ex-Amigians in the near future.
A much enhanced MorphOS running on the eclipsis in the long term.
The SW for the eclipsis will developed by those who buy a Pegasos now (or in the near future).
There is simple NO way someone could make such amount of money on the current Amiga-
market, and the low visitor number (when compared to last year) in Aachen makes that
clear. Ther is also NO way to make AOS/MOS a mainstream OS as long as both rely on
allready outdated HW, and lack SW.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 17 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Dec-2002 20:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (coldfire):
You can allways try! :-)
Note that MorphOS and OS4 will be made in PPC, and there will be no 68k processor on board the Pegasos/A1. Some processor emulation will take place. The hardware is different than in a classic Amiga. Not 100% of all the old 68k software will like that, and some won't like upgraded details in the OS, and so on (after all, MorphOS (and OS4 for that matter) is a new OS). When OS'es evolves there are never 100% backwards compatibility. Not on AmigaOS, not on MacOS, not on Windows.
But as I said, you can allways try! I think that you will find that many of your favourite applications will work just fine, but perhaps not all! I experianced the same situation when AmigaOS went from v1.3 to v2, and then to v3. It will be the same when AmigaOS v.3 goes v.4, rest assured about that!
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 18 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Dec-2002 20:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (catohagen):
>so it needs to be provided to these new people [...] buy most basic tools, when other operating systems bundle
I believe so far nobody has claimed that these most basic tools would NOT be provided with MorphOS. At this time however, they are mostly not.
Personally, I'm relieved that they did not go the let's-buy-everything-up route to fix a short-term problem. That approach feels stale since OS3.5. Leave some gaps now, maintain a clean design, point people to freeware if they absolutely have to have a specific tool at this time, and quietly work on quality tools.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 19 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 07-Dec-2002 21:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (coldfire):
"So my amiga tools are going to run on it?"
Probably. No promises though, even software which *seems* like it's
system-legal may contain code that hits the hardware. I think it's
unlikely that something small like a calculator wouldn't work, but you
really need to try or ask someone specifically. There will be lists of
compatible software, can't promise when though. :)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 20 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Dec-2002 22:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Christophe Decanini):
In that case, you might also feel oblidged to warn everyone that this "report" is "extremely biased". It didn't stop you the last time for sure.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 21 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 07-Dec-2002 22:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
I'm sure we well get some other reports with different points
of view...
however, being a pegasos user, I'm not particularly suprised.
it exists and it's nice, though it still needs some work.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 22 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 07-Dec-2002 22:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
Actually Mr. Anonymous does have a point here. ;)
Or should it be so that authors sharing *your* opinions are unbiased and people who don't are being biased?
Newsflash..... BTW all opinions are biased. :)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 23 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Dec-2002 22:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
Hi anonymous,
Would you have the courage to put your real name next time ?
This report look to be from someone that has not been involved a lot lately with either AmigaOne/OS4 or Pegasos/MorphOS.
It is not really a full featured report, more like a general quick view of what was going on there. I don't think that the guy that posted that has any bias.
The report you talk about was from someone that agreed to be biased and had no interest in MorphOS. I will be glad to moderate news items about OS4 as soon as they come.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 24 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 07-Dec-2002 22:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Christophe Decanini):
And what if his opinion was that MorphOS was still pretty unstable, this so even when running solely specificly MorphOS targeted applications?
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 25 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 07-Dec-2002 22:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Mike Bouma):
please, it's not useful artificially starting yet another
boring flamewar !
it's well known that morphos itself is pretty stable
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 26 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 07-Dec-2002 22:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (mahen):
Well leaving such a report faceless, or written by someone nobody knows, also renders the article almost worthless in my opinion. *Anyone*, including even Ralph Schimdt himself could have written this article. ;)
For me, if the OS still crashes every now and then while running solely *MorphOS specific* applications, the OS still is too unstable for my liking. At least I would not accept such behaviours from my PC or games console.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 27 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Dec-2002 22:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Mike Bouma):
It would be his opinion.
The comment I added on the other post was just a warning, not censure.
I know someone that I can trust who has been running a Pegasos for months so I know that MorphOS is running fine.
I would have done the same thing if the same person I know would have had OS4 running like MorphOS for month and then someone would have done a report saying a lot of good stuff on MorphOS and saying that OS4 was unusable because too unstable.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 28 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Dec-2002 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Mike Bouma):
You don't have the same opinion when you brag about your Amithlon setup which is as unstable as OS3.9, so a lot.
We will see how OS4 performs when we will have a chance to test it.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 29 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Dec-2002 23:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Mike Bouma):
"Well leaving such a report faceless, or written by someone nobody knows, also renders the article almost worthless in my opinion. *Anyone*, including even Ralph Schimdt himself could have written this article."
This is why I complained. I'am sure more reports will come. I hope we will have more details and not too biased reports.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 30 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 07-Dec-2002 23:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Christophe Decanini):
Don't be so obviously defensive about MorphOS, will ya? AmigaOS3.9 is not running unstable on my PC here, and yes while choosing a specific set of applications it will not crash for over a week.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 31 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Diermar Eilert on 07-Dec-2002 23:22 GMT
Hello ann-readers,
I wrote the original "report". It's titled "first impressions" though. I'm not biased towards Morphos or AmigaOS4, I have no plans to buy either of them (I went to that event because I live here, ten minutes away). And, to make that perfectly clear, I have the highest respect for Hyperion and Co and basically everybody developing software.
The text is Pegasos-centric because that was the only interesting thing there from my point of view. I mean that in a non-positive sense. I simply don't care about sales people, otherwise I would have mentioned Vesalia, KDH, etc. I'm sorry I forgot about the C=1 though, but I was distracted (read a review about GoldED in Amiga Future, had fantasies about inflicting pain after that). Btw, the reported stability of Pegasos is qualified by a 20 minutes timeframe, it's not an apodictic statement.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 32 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 07-Dec-2002 23:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Mike Bouma):
> Don't be so obviously defensive about MorphOS, will ya? AmigaOS3.9 is not
> running unstable on my PC here, and yes while choosing a specific set of
> applications it will not crash for over a week.
Strange... What is this a specific set of applications? Amiga without MiamiDx, AmIRC and IBrowse 1.22? All those necessary applications crash on amiga without warning sooner or later. But hey, I'm just using AmigaOS 3.1. Maybe Commodore was not that good on OS development then.... hehe...
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 33 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 07-Dec-2002 23:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (takemehomegrandma):
>That issue was put away long time ago. Buggy applications will crash AmigaOS3.x, MorphOS, and OS4 aswell!
I know, but blaiming morphos unstability with buggy amiga software, implies that
theres *alot* of it around, this won't work as promoting morphos.
from the Morphos in Detail document :
"
The Q-Box on the other hand shall be new and will require it's own applications, but by including compatibility with Amiga applications through the A-Box, MorphOS is able to start with an existing, mature application base while the Q-Box is in development."
since it depends on existing, mature application base while Q-Box is in development,
there has to be an mature application base ?
Instead Morphos are seen in show after show, with Frogger crashing ? :)
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 34 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Dec-2002 00:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Mike Bouma):
I think Pegasos owners can answer exactely the same thing.
I don't see how you are more qualified then them to define how stable is a system.
Anyway this has been already discussed to death. You are just trolling here Mike.
I'am sure that you will close your eyes when OS4 will crash.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 35 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Dec-2002 00:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Mike Bouma):
"*Anyone*, including even Ralph Schimdt himself could have written this article. ;)"
Well that was not Ralph Schmidt, Diermar Eilert said he was not sided and I trust him.
I do not trust you Mike, and Mr Anonymous could be one of your "friend" that do not accept that anything positive would be published about MorphOS.
On my side I wish OS4 success as well as MorphOS, can you say the same thing or will it hurt you to say that ?
If everyone is biased who between you and me is more biased ?
I'am not on Morphos secret communication mailing list. Can you say the same thing about not being on AmigaINC secret mailing list ?
I have no personal problems with the Hyperion team, can you say the same thing about Thendic ?
If I become more aggressive it is because I feel aggressed. Not because of opinion on MorphOS but because some anonymous bastard criticize me while I'am spending a lot of time giving him a service.
Even Christian who is not as thin skin as me had to voice his opinion on this issue lately. Of course now he his accused of bias.
As you said you have a big IQ and are very smart: you turned a nice thread into flamewar. This was exactely your point.
Maybe It is my fault as I'am still answering to someone that spend a lot of time defending AmigaINC and attacking its competitors.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 36 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 08-Dec-2002 01:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Christophe Decanini):
Christopher, Don't take it personally, Bouma (neutral journalist, yea right), is going on the attack lately, accusing anyone who voices a point of view other then, Amiga Inc. is wonderful, should be banned/censored from amiga public forums. I'm not sure who thought this idea up for him, but these tactics are getting annoyingly transparent. Now, he starts his rant, when someone gives a straight shooter report of the show, of course it's going to be Thendic oriented, they actually attended the show, and showed their work, what's the guy supposed to focus on, the one guy who packed up his AmigaOne, and had it running linux, how interesting is that.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 37 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 08-Dec-2002 01:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Mike Bouma):
You are biased, no question about it.
And yes, you are NOT a journalist, but a therapist(your general excuse when things start to get a bit uncomfortable) so we cant blame you for making mistakes. But it sure gets tiresome.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 38 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 08-Dec-2002 01:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (amorel):
"so we cant blame you for making mistakes"
That was sarcasm, ofcourse he can be blamed, though I am positive most of his trolling is on purpose.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 39 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Lando/Trinity on 08-Dec-2002 02:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (takemehomegrandma):
>When OS'es evolves there are never 100% backwards compatibility.
>Not on AmigaOS, not on MacOS, not on Windows.
I think the vast majority of stuff can be gotten to run on Windows with a little fiddling (many old DOS games/apps won't run on Win9x because of a lack of "conventional" memory but you can make a boot-disk and fiddle about with autoexec.bat and config.sys) and Mac OS X will run Classic environment automagically when you start a pre-OS X application so that's pretty backwards-compatible too.
Of course, neither of these machines had any custom hardware, unlike the Amiga. At least, say, 95%? of Amiga applications (and almost all games) rely on the Amiga's custom h/w to some extent - they're just gonna access $dff000+whatever and crash the machine. Same on both A1 and Pegasos, MorphOS and OS4.
I would really have liked there to have been some sort of classic compatibility addon - maybe like the PCI card Mick Tinker was working on, or some built-in software emulation for OS4 that checked for accesses to custom chip registers and emulated them in software. That way we'd have full compatibility, instead of the 1-5% compatibility we can look forward to right now. OK, there's always UAE but it's not the same...
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 40 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Dec-2002 03:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Lando/Trinity):
>Of course, neither of these machines had any custom hardware, unlike the Amiga.
>At least, say, 95%? of Amiga applications (and almost all games) rely on the Amiga's
>custom h/w to some extent - they're just gonna access $dff000+whatever and crash
>the machine. Same on both A1 and Pegasos, MorphOS and OS4.
Not the same at all, they are implementing memory protection in OS4.0, and as you know,
the OS4.0 will run the same 68k programs in the PPC environment just with some memory trapping,
So if 68k programs do any thing illegal it will NOT or should NOT crash OS4.0.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 41 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 08-Dec-2002 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (amorel):
Amorel, and what are you unbiased? LOL
Seriously everyone is biased to some extend, previous requests from me asking people to point me to anyone who is completely unbiased, have resulted into exactly 0 replies.
And personally I don't consider my postings here as trollings, but an attempt for people to finally start to see their *own* biases. Although my real profession is being a physical therapist, I am also very qualified at writing AmigaOS related articles, this due to my experiences with AmigaOS and a whole scala of alternative operating systems.
I have been attacked by many of you guys as I have stated that MorphOS still is unstable within my articles. The fact of the matter is that during the *demonstration* I have seen by betatesters/developers the OS crashed/rebooted over 20 times. Seriously should I have said nothing to my readers (I have worded it in the best and positive way I could though)? Now please start to see your own biases please.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 42 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 08-Dec-2002 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Mike Bouma):
Excuse me Mike but before speack it's better to go to a show and see what is really alive and what no.
I see Pegasos+MorphOs in September 2001 and it was so good, slow, buggy etc. After one year I see them first in Italy at Pianeta Amiga, where people was enthusiastic for the stability and the speed BOTH for new PPC applications that for the68k emulator and the compatibility with the old RTG compliant software. See Pagestream (4.1) RUN at that speed is near a miracle ... compared to the fact that it was runnig with Frogger that played a 512*384 divx (perfecly).
The second time was some weeks ago at "Morphos meeting". It was incredible the work made in it in terms of Interface (Ambient is fantastic, can be HEAVELY customized in all its parts!), speed (the 68k emulator was near the speed of UAE JIT under my Athlon Xp 2000) and compatibility/stability (2 hours without a crash running dozens of applicationa is stability for me :D ).
I readed on the other hand problems to found the feature list of MorphOS.
It's easy ad someone told it.
Morphos is an OS a lot similar to Amiga Os but 100% PPC native, with a kernel (Quark) that support memory protection and virtual mem for his new application. The native Tcp/IP stack will be 2, AmiTCP and Roadshow. The "natural companion browser" Voyager 3 that is completly ported on PPC by a year now. The "MediaPlayer" will be Frogger. Yam was ported on MorphOs by a yer too. The same is for the Text edito CygnusED.
And remember, MUI was portd on MorphOS by more then a year. The Official Filesystem is SmartFileSystem (for the info on it see the readme on Aminet), The Gfx parts is managed by Cybergraphix 5 that is the facto standard on Amiga platom for RTG graphics.
Supported video boards?
ATI Radeon RV100 (ATI 7000)
ATI Radeon R100 (ATI 7200)
ATI Radeon RV200 (ATI 7500)
ATI Radeon R200 (ATI 8500LE)
ATI Radeon 9xxx included All in Wonder variants
Permedia2 based cards
Permedia2v based cards
SiS 6326 based cards
SiS 305 based cards
3dfx Voodoo3 2000/3000/3500 (Avenger)
3dfx Voodoo4 4500 cards (VSA-100)
3dfx Voodoo5 5500 cards (2x VSA-100)
CyberVisionPPC (Permedia2)
BlizzardVisionPPC (Permedia2)
In the 3D field all this boards will be supported by a near "still in beta" port of MESA-GL.
In the Firewire filed at last there are two concurrents driver plans one from the USb stack creators, one from VHI. The software that will see and use first Firewire and othe Usb "video-like" product will be VHI_Studio.
I hope that people will not buy a mediocre PCB board with only Linux avaiable just because it have an AmigaInc dongle on it, because this is the AmigaONe, a big dongle.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 43 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 08-Dec-2002 09:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Eva):
"I hope that people will not buy a mediocre PCB board with only Linux avaiable just because it have an AmigaInc dongle on it, because this is the AmigaONe, a big dongle."
No they will buy it cos it will Run Aos4 when finnished.
That is the factor over the boards.
PPL are not choosing the Aone cos they think the Aone is better its cos of Aos4
And seeing as MOS has said to have been run On an Aone or the un-dongled version
there is a good chance of having MOS & Aos4 on the Aone.
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 44 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Dec-2002 10:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Kjetil):
"Not the same at all, they are implementing memory protection in
OS4.0, and as you know, the OS4.0 will run the same 68k programs in
the PPC environment just with some memory trapping, So if 68k programs
do any thing illegal it will NOT or should NOT crash OS4.0."
Sorry to disappoint you, but the memory protection of OS4 - according
to what has been announced - will be very limited. In fact, it will be
*just the same* as what the ABox in MorphOS offers.
The reason for this is more or less technical necessity.
In order to stop applications from crashing the system, a new API must
be made and native applications must be developed. This is planned for
MorphOS, but since no one expects a flood of users and applications,
the first step is compatibility with Amiga(tm) apps. I'm sure there
are similar plans for later AOS versions although I'm a bit unsure
about the specifics (according to Ben Hermans they won't use a box
approach, which makes me wonder.. but he's been wrong about the
technical details before).
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 45 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Dec-2002 10:39 GMT
People will buy AmigaOne because OS4 will support it - plain and simple.
Can I get OS4 with Pegasos? - "No"
So do I care about how great Morphos is? - "No" - In the same way I don't care about the MacOS, TAO & QNX platforms
So the Pegasos board has built in firewire and a smaller form factor....So...Can I run OS4 on it? - "No"
Talk to me when OS4 runs on the board - otherwise please keep quiet :P
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 46 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Dec-2002 10:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Christophe Decanini):
> On my side I wish OS4 success as well as MorphOS, can you say the same thing
> or will it hurt you to say that ?
> I'am not on Morphos secret communication mailing list. Can you say the same
> thing about not being on AmigaINC secret mailing list ?
> I have no personal problems with the Hyperion team, can you say the same
> thing about Thendic ?
> If I become more aggressive it is because I feel aggressed. Not because of
> opinion on MorphOS but because some anonymous bastard criticize me while
> I'am spending a lot of time giving him a service.
Well said!
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 47 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Dec-2002 11:08 GMT
Hyperion is developing AmigaOS4 and PPCBoot for AmigaOne G3 and G4...They can make changes in PPCBoot and AmigaOS4 for best performance and compatability..
I guess this will make AmigaOne the real Amiga when OS4 (the one for A1) is ready for public.
On other side , Pegasos + MorphOS is a nice alternative and competitor for AmigaOS / AmigaOne...We all know that MorphOS team has got rid of AmigaOS related stuff to avoid copyright problems in the future...
Let AmigaOS and MorphOS be seperate OSes...If OS4 runs on Pegasos and Mos runs on A1, that's good...That will mean some extra sales for both companies..Since filesystems are identical (FFS, SFS, e.t.c) it will be possible to share files between OSes...
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 48 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Dec-2002 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Kjetil):
> Not the same at all, they are implementing memory protection in OS4.0, and
> as you know,
> So if 68k programs do any thing illegal it will NOT or should NOT crash OS4.0.
I'm sorry to say this, but that is so totally wrong!
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 49 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Dec-2002 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
> Can I get OS4 with Pegasos? - "No"
Can you get OS4 ... *at all* ?! No!
And since OS4 won't run on Pegasos, OS4 is of no interest to me!
> So do I care about how great Morphos is? - "No" - In the same way I don't
> care about the MacOS, TAO & QNX platforms
MacOS, Tao and QNX are different platforms. MorphOS is a reimplementation of AmigaOS. It looks and feels like AmigaOS (only more beautyful and a lot faster). You can't run your favourite Amiga applications on MacOS, Tao and QNX, but you can run them on MorphOS just as you are used to from your Amiga. Pegasos+MorphOS "IS" an Amiga (but without a dongle and Amiga-sticker on it). The other OS:es are not!
> So the Pegasos board has built in firewire and a smaller form factor
It also has on board sound with an optical digital connector, so you won't have to keep investing in it and filling up PCI slots just to get it running the way you want. And it has a better price. And it is available *now*, not only for use with Linux, but as an "Amiga" (again, without the Amiga-sticker, but *WHO CARES*?!).
> ....So...Can I run OS4 on it? - "No"
Well, then OS4 is uninteresting!
Sure, a great deal of work has been put into the OS4 project (even more in MorphOS, rest assured about that!). But when looking at the OS4 "feature list" (heh) I see mostly a list over libraries that is going to be ported to PPC, and some third party programs and hacks/patches that now is going to be included in the OS (will OS4 crash? Certainly. Not all older programs like those hacks that is now going to be included into the OS). Parts of OS4 will not even be ported to PPC; it will still be some OS3.x 68k code in it. That doesn't feel good to me. It feels somewhat bloated, full of old legacies. And remember - OS4 is today in a developing state in which MorphOS was 1.5 years ago. MorphOS is released now, OS4 isn't!
MorphOS is a reimplementation of AmigaOS, completely rewritten from scratch in PPC. It's here now. It's lean, mean and clean. That feels good. It feels fresh. And it's here now!
I would propably have tried OS4 out, *if* it would have been available, and *if* it would have been available to the Pegasos. But I am *never* going to buy one of those Teron bulkboards with dongles just to try it out. I don't think that it will offer me anything more than MorphOS anyway.
> Talk to me when OS4 runs on the board - otherwise please keep quiet :P
Talk to me when OS4 runs *at all* - otherwise please keep quiet :P
Amiga + Retro Computing 2002, first impressions : Comment 50 of 230ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Dec-2002 11:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
> Talk to me when OS4 runs on the board - otherwise please keep quiet :P
When OS4 is released you will have the situation of two operating systems both capable of running AmigaOS3 applications on a PPC platform. Your unconditional preference only makes sense if OS4 turns out to be better than, or mostly equal to, MorphOS. I understand that this is an open question to must of us who have no insights into the closed circles of developers. The bonus of beeing the official solution only goes so far. Other considerations, such as quality of the hardware, quality of the OS, pricing, presumed support by developers and the amount of native applications can not simply be discarded.
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