24-Sep-2022 23:36 GMT.
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Anonymous, there are 72 items in your selection [1 - 50] [51 - 72]
[Web] Top VapourWare Products of 2002ANN.lu
Posted on 02-Jan-2003 21:54 GMT by Wrigleys (Edited on 2003-01-03 01:02:01 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)72 comments
View flat
View list
Our favourite platform has achieved the number 9 spot for the top ten vapourware products of 2002. http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,57023,00.html for details. From the article:

"9. The new Amiga: Earlier this year, fans of the Amiga were in a tizzy about the prospect of a revival of the comatose platform: Both new machines and a new operating system were promised. Suffice it to say, neither are readily available.

"Some retailers and the Amiga website are taking orders for systems, but 'selling' and 'shipping' are two very different things," wrote reader Russ Van Winkle.

Swift Griggs added: "I've heard promises now for three years. Amiga Inc. has delivered nothing but lies and hot air now for three years, just like everyone who has come before them in the post-Commodore Amigan holocaust."
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 1 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 02-Jan-2003 21:10 GMT
Wow! ;-)
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 2 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 02-Jan-2003 21:17 GMT
great advertising
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 3 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 02-Jan-2003 21:25 GMT
I'm amazed anyone is that bothered. 9th is quite good advertising but the 'lies and hot air' bit isn't.

---
Sam
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 4 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Party On! on 02-Jan-2003 22:20 GMT
Congratulations!
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 5 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 02-Jan-2003 22:56 GMT
Now let's see how the ACCM list will manage this. They are there to
improve the Amiga inc PR department... will they attack Wired
as they (at least Luca) always attack Thendic? ;-)

Or maybe they'll ask the impossible, ie.
to have Amiga deliver something!

This wuold be great ;p
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 6 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 02-Jan-2003 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Sam Smith):
"Amiga Inc. has delivered nothing but lies and hot air now for three years"

Nicely put. Need to copy that to couple mailing list's :)
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 7 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Jan-2003 23:20 GMT
So the fact that people actually received their machines in December means nothing? Note that wired says that BOTH the hardware and the OS failed to materialize. I guess they should have checked their facts before making a fool of themselves.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 8 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 02-Jan-2003 23:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
>So the fact that people actually received their machines in

Who?
Developers or real users?

Can you buy an AmigaOne and get it right now in 5/10/15
days?
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 9 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by ilwrath on 03-Jan-2003 01:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
quoth the anonymous fool: "So the fact that people actually received their machines in December means nothing? Note that wired says that BOTH the hardware and the OS failed to materialize. I guess they should have checked their facts before making a fool of themselves."

Of course, right on Wired's award page, it says...
"As in previous years, software locked in the pre-release, beta-testing stage is considered vaporware, even if it's widely available. It hasn't shipped until it's shrink-wrapped. Likewise hardware. Prototypes may exist in some company's lab, but it's vaporware until it hits store shelves."

I haven't seen an A1 on any shelves... Or even mail order. Maybe pre-order, but that's vapor to me. It's a pretty big disgrace. Personally, I'm banking on Duke Nukem Forever to ship before OS4.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 10 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jan-2003 02:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
It says they aren't /readily available/. That's true.

Previously (in say 1999) Duke fans tried to defend DN4 by saying that it wasn't vapour because they'd seen screenshots, or witnessed a demo behind closed doors. Some people have claimed their product wasn't vapour because beta testers were running it (Microsoft in 1998)

If the G3 systems shipped in December count, why not those shipped in June? The quantities aren't all that different, and the customers are receiving the same non-service (Not for ordinary users, blah blah, Linux not properly installed, hardware configuration supplied may not function...). A real shipping product ought to look a whole lot different IMNSHO.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 11 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 03-Jan-2003 03:26 GMT
Oh goody, fame at last!!

No, wait... I don't want this kind of fame!!

This could have been our 3rd time on the list. We could be in first (or would that be LAST?) place by now!!!

Com'on AInc. dudes, get us an ultra cool machine into the shops and our homes/offices, pronto!

Wishful thinking? Hey, if it takes much longer, I'll be their only customer, then I'll be famous too! That's worth a couple grand.

Amiga! "I am Amiga!", says Amy the mascot.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 12 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 03-Jan-2003 03:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (ilwrath):
>I haven't seen an A1 on any shelves... Or even mail order. Maybe pre-order, but that's vapor to me. >It's a pretty big disgrace. Personally, I'm banking on Duke Nukem Forever to ship before OS4.

Ow! That hurts!

I figure AOS4 will probably actually ship by June or July....if not then never. After all...what would be the point?

coldfire
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 13 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk on 03-Jan-2003 05:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (coldfire):
"I figure AOS4 will probably actually ship by June or July....if not then never. After all...what would be the point?"

Is something that new and different coming in June or July that would make OS4.0 any less relevant at that point in time as compared to now or March? OS 4.0 is coming....it's just a matter of time now.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 14 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 03-Jan-2003 07:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Adam Kowalczyk):
Future looks bright, just keep the faith? :)
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 15 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 03-Jan-2003 07:36 GMT
Clueless idiots there at wired.com ...
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 16 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jan-2003 08:37 GMT
The nomination is earned.

but ...

They simply shouldnt have added that last comment "nothing but lies and hot air", "post-Commodore Amigan holocaust" tsk tsk tsk.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 17 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jan-2003 08:40 GMT
Bill McEwen should get the Lifetime-Vaporware-Award .. he really "worked hard" to get it, now give him!
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 18 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 03-Jan-2003 10:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (JoannaK):
>"Amiga Inc. has delivered nothing but lies and hot air now for three years"
>
>Nicely put. Need to copy that to couple mailing list's :)

Although this might be funny at first sight, I think it's pretty damn pathetic. AInc have had plenty of chances, which they f*cked up one after the other. I can't believe they are still in business. OMHO it would be better for the remaining community if they would just go bankrupt already.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 19 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by z5 on 03-Jan-2003 10:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Adam Kowalczyk):
>Is something that new and different coming in June or July that would make OS4.0 any less relevant at that point in time as compared to now or March? OS 4.0 is coming....it's just a matter of time now.

Nah, ofcourse not. I mean, it's just another delay...so what...we are used to it. I wouldn't want to have a product released anyway...i mean...we are all here because of the fun waiting...

And when June and July comes, it probably will be oktober, november...but hey
what's the problem...it's coming...one day...just a matter of time now.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 20 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by z5 on 03-Jan-2003 10:58 GMT
However, i still think AmigaDE should have won the Vapor top ten.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 21 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by MrBlonde on 03-Jan-2003 11:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (z5):
What does Hyperion say these days? God they HAVE to have some inkling when this will be ready!? Maybe they need help? Are they hiring?? I used to work for Blockbuster Video! :-p
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 22 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 03-Jan-2003 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (coldfire):
>I figure AOS4 will probably actually ship by June or July....if not
>then never. After all...what would be the point?

Actually I think they've missed the boat already. The last estimate I remember reading from Ben Hermans was that OS4 would be released (at least for CS-PPC cards) before the end of 2002.

I was a big Amiga Inc fan. I "donated" my $50. But after all the delays and disappointments Pegasos and MorphOS is looking much more attractive. Although it feels in some way like stabbing an old friend in the back to dump Amiga and go with a competing platform. If Amiga Inc, and companies associated with them, can't deliver, what other choice is there?

I hope Amiga Inc. go bust. And I'd like to see Genesi purchase the trademarks when (if) they do. Their products have a lot more in common with Amiga "spirit" than some pack of pocket games for Windows.

For now I stick with classic Amiga, maybe upgrade it with SharkPPC (assuming Elbox release it, and it runs OS4 as they say it will) and buy myself a nice Pegasos.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 23 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jan-2003 13:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (z5):
> However, i still think AmigaDE should have won the Vapor top ten.

Au contraire ... AACE is an available (limited) AmigaDE, it _is_ a consumer version, which is also why AmigaInc _do_ have a product.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 24 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jan-2003 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
> And I'd like to see Genesi purchase the trademarks when (if) they do.

I doubt thats going to happen. Genesi has already shown that theyre not willing to pay for the name.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 25 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 03-Jan-2003 14:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
"So the fact that people actually received their machines in December means nothing? Note that wired says
that BOTH the hardware and the OS failed to materialize. I guess they should have checked their facts
before making a fool of themselves."

The article will have been written in November, at the latest.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 26 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 03-Jan-2003 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Don Cox):
And after all they only sold a relabeled MAI machine .....
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 27 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 03-Jan-2003 16:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (anonymous):
I thought that Eyetech was doing that.

You better check your sources.

But then again you cant even remember your Nick.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 28 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 03-Jan-2003 16:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
Lando wrote:

> Actually I think they've missed the boat already. The last estimate I
> remember reading from Ben Hermans was that OS4 would be released (at
> least for CS-PPC cards) before the end of 2002.

Yeah, well Ben Hermans says now "this time it's real" and before him Bill McEwen said "on schedule and rockin'" and before them all the other trademark holders said similar things, but who has delivered really?

> I was a big Amiga Inc fan. I "donated" my $50. But after all the delays
> and disappointments Pegasos and MorphOS is looking much more attractive.
> Although it feels in some way like stabbing an old friend in the back to
> dump Amiga and go with a competing platform.

Listen, you are not dumping Amiga by going with Pegasos, you are dumping Amiga Inc. and there is a big difference. I have used Amigas since 1989 or so, and you think I am "dumping Amiga" by becoming a Pegasos and MorphOS user? Hell no! I still enjoy that platform, and for me Genesi is carrying on with the things that were best about it.

> If Amiga Inc, and companies associated with them, can't deliver, what
> other choice is there?

You have a few choices out there like Linux and QNX and Mac, but if you want alternative modern hardware and software that runs many apps for the classic Amiga platform then you have the choice of MorphOS and Pegasos. It comes from people who have been involved in this community for years, and yes IMO it carries on the "spirit" of the platform. We would like for you to join us, but nobody is forcing you to do this or anything, you can do what you like.

As far as I am concerned the future is now, some people can choose to wait around forever, but they don't need to wait. I am not waiting. Jay Miner debuted the original Amiga at CES many years ago, and Genesi is going to be there a week from today. I will too and I think we are going to get a good turnout from other Amigans. Amigans should be happy about all this but there are elements that want to factionalize and divide us. It is time to put all that aside and enjoy the great products, and events that are happening around us.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 29 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 03-Jan-2003 16:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Daniel Miller):
The fact is just cos you have accepted Genesi that does not mean every one else has to.

with your logic My buying a PC & running UAE on top on windows is not dumping the amiga community,
just amiga.inc.

But at least with UAE you need AmigaOS for it to work.

With MOS you dont use AmigaOS at all.

AmigaOS 68k apps work on MOS

MOS apps do not work on AmigaOS at all.


As soon as you as app is coded for MOS & MOS only then its dumping the amiga community.

At least when you code for AmigaOS it may run on AmigaOs,Amithlon,Windows/UAE,Mac/UAE,Linux/UAE.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 30 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by z5 on 03-Jan-2003 16:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
>I hope Amiga Inc. go bust.

Well, me too. If you can't even produce a t-shirt, how are they supposed to make software?

But hey, maybe soon we will be flooded by the software written by the 3000 (ahum) or so developers.

Amiga Inc is a bunch of amateurs.

I'm out of here. No point in waiting...
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 31 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 03-Jan-2003 16:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Adam Kowalczyk):
>Is something that new and different coming in June or July that would make OS4.0 any less relevant >at that point in time as compared to now or March? OS 4.0 is coming....it's just a matter of time >now.

I figure by that time they'll be lucky to sell 500 copies. I know I wont be around anymore. I'll have a pegasos or new linux box by then....hell OSX looks better all the time. I think their time may be allready over...if not the clock is sure ticking.

coldfire
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 32 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by z5 on 03-Jan-2003 17:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (z5):
In conclusion, i still think OS4 will be released and i still think Hyperion and the other developers working on it, have the skill to release something good. And when it comes, i will still buy it. I don't see them doing anything wrong the past months. OS4 was a big step and it takes time. And more importantly, staff have to be payed while developing such a large project.

It's Amiga Inc i find pathetic.

So here's hope for OS4...
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 33 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 03-Jan-2003 17:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (z5):
At last some one with a bit of logic & reality.

I want Aone cos it will run Aos4.

Im an AmigaOS lover.

Not amiga.inc lover.

& come to think of it i have not really liked any of the Amiga IP holders in the past either.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 34 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 03-Jan-2003 17:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Alkemyst):
"As soon as [an] app is coded for MOS & MOS only then its dumping
the amiga community."

Well, I'd say coding an app for MOS mainly means porting it to PPC
native. Seeing that what's planned for OS4 looks pretty similar to the
MorphOS solution (on paper), I think the work necessary to make it OS4
native too will be neglible. That is, I think if someone wanted to
port their software to OS4/PPC, I think the best they could do
currently is to start porting for MorphOS.

Now personally I don't believe in OS4 appearing in a useful state at
least before next christmas, but everyone's free to have their own
opinion. All I'm saying is that no matter whether you think you'll be
waiting for 1 month, 1 year, or forever, there's hardly any reason to
"wait".
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 35 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 03-Jan-2003 17:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Johan Rönnblom):
Yes why wait, your right.

Ill just go & buy my self a nice PowerMac/MacOSX

& UAE.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 36 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 03-Jan-2003 18:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Alkemyst):
You know...there's really no GOOD reason why you can't buy a nice new Power Mac now...use OSX until a year or two from now when OS4 gets done, and then run OS4 on it. Of course there is the fact that Amiga Inc. don't want it to run on anything other than their "certified" hardware.

coldfire
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 37 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 03-Jan-2003 18:36 GMT
i really didnt believe it until i read some of the comments on this
list...but now i realise its true.

theres a lot of people out there that think the G3 AmigaONE isnt
ready. it is, and has been shipping since beginning of december.
i have friends running their hardware for weeks now.

Pegasos WAS available sooner, true. buts its no longer the only
one shipping.

the WIRED article is just plain wrong (though amusing)
the new Amiga IS out, and available for purchase NOW.

AmigaOS 4.x, however, isnt.

its only the G4 AmigaONE tha isnt ready yet - as was CLEARLY
mentioned in Alan Redhouses latest update

please, open eyes and read

alan
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 38 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 03-Jan-2003 18:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Don Cox):
no. the article was written late in december - as anyone
who reads /. (slashdot.org) will know - as the nomiation/voting
was opened in december (a previous news item pointed
people to the vote form)

alan
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 39 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 03-Jan-2003 20:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Alkemyst):
Of course they won't work. With your logic, will WOS apps run on a 68k only
system? Of course not. An almost direct recompile is enough to make most
MorphOS apps run on 68k (just remove the stuff using the API extensions from
the source).
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 40 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 03-Jan-2003 21:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
@ Lando:

> I hope Amiga Inc. go bust. And I'd like to see Genesi purchase the trademarks
> when (if) they do. Their products have a lot more in common with
> Amiga "spirit" than some pack of pocket games for Windows.

Me too. And trust me, there is a lot of "Amiga Spirit" in the Pegasos/MorphOS platform. I was "away" from the Amiga platform for a long time, using windows boxes, but it was sure nice coming back. MorphOS is IMHO even better than the OS3.1 I once left. A lot better.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 41 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 03-Jan-2003 22:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Anonymous):
>> And I'd like to see Genesi purchase the trademarks when (if) they do.

> I doubt thats going to happen. Genesi has already shown that theyre not
> willing to pay for the name.

The people behind Genesi tried to buy the Amiga brand before, remember? You must see the difference in investing money to get control over a trademark, and paying license fees and not have anything to say about it?
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 42 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 03-Jan-2003 22:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (z5):
> Well, me too. If you can't even produce a t-shirt, how are they supposed to
> make software?

I got a Pegasos/MorphOS T-shirt. And I didn't even ask for it! :-)

(It's "Large" and I would need a "XL", but what the heck ...)
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 43 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 03-Jan-2003 22:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (alan buxey):
> theres a lot of people out there that think the G3 AmigaONE isnt
> ready. it is, and has been shipping since beginning of december.
> i have friends running their hardware for weeks now.

The AmigaOne is made of two components (according to Amiga Inc), the A1 hardware and OS4. No AmigaOne is available. Some A1 SE motherboards has been shipped, that's all. No one can use them as they are supposed to be used; no one can use them as *AMIGAS*!

> Pegasos WAS available sooner, true. buts its no longer the only
> one shipping.

Yes, the Pegasos is available now together with MorphOS. We who owns them can use them as Amigas *TODAY*! Well, without that "Amiga (TM)" part, but the brand sticker is not *that* important anyway ...
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 44 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Sure Grandma on 03-Jan-2003 23:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (takemehomegrandma):
Sure Granny,

If you say so. Seems to me that there isnt a MOS defensible platform were it not for Amiga and the uncoveted 'sticker'. Convince me otherwise. Inspired by? OK. If you say so.

I suspect that the realisation that your argument is entirely transparent, and bordering on a 'fought the good fight, but lost' speech by bbrv is the motivation for your usual nonsense?

Spare us.

If it aint Amiga. It aint. Prove me otherwise.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 45 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 03-Jan-2003 23:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Sure Grandma):
> If it aint Amiga. It aint. Prove me otherwise.

If you want to discuss this with any degree of rationality, you should define what you think is an Amiga.

Or are you just chanting a mantra?

Gregg
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 46 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Sure Grandma on 04-Jan-2003 00:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Gregg):
Sorry Gregg,

Aint no mantra. I might accuse you of the same.

This is purely a response that has not been caught up in the battle of nits that we know as the 'MOS thing of 2002'. And not a very interesting one at that. Me toos rarely are.

Why dont you pick up a copy of the Monty Python bit re: 'This isnt an argument, this is contradiction'. Seems to me that this is the talent of the MOS community. 'To serve and contradict' 'The stated moral majority'. As a gesture of good will for 2003, feel free to use them.

I do not care to hear, 'inspired by', I do not care to hear 'We are better, woof woof', I do not care to hear any more parsing of statements or to hear any of the lame garbage that has been posted.

I have but one simple question. Is MOS, Amiga? Yes or No.

That said, if it aint, it aint.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 47 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 04-Jan-2003 00:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Gregg):
Animal Farm by George Orwell ... "Four legs good, two legs bad."

:)
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 48 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Sure Grandma on 04-Jan-2003 00:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (JoannaK):
Sorry Joanna,

This is not about 2 or 4 legs. If it aint Amiga, it aint.

Frankly, the Animal Farm reference has more to do with MOS than Amiga. A Bi-ped making like an octopus.
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 49 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 04-Jan-2003 00:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Sure Grandma):
Ooh, I'm in the talented MOS community, am I?

Try "Om Mani Padme Hum" - it has a much more soothing cadence to it.

Gregg
Top VapourWare Products of 2002 : Comment 50 of 72ANN.lu
Posted by Sure Grandma on 04-Jan-2003 01:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Gregg):
What ever. If it aint, it aint. Padma or otherwise.
Anonymous, there are 72 items in your selection [1 - 50] [51 - 72]
Back to Top