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[News] Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES.ANN.lu
Posted on 07-Jan-2003 18:37 GMT by Alkis Tsapanidis (Edited on 2003-01-07 20:00:46 GMT by Christian Kemp)41 comments
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Genesi SARL informed us that Samuel Rydh, principal developer of Mac-On-Linux, will be at the Genesi booth at CES and help to promote the Pegasos.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 1 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Jan-2003 17:40 GMT
WTF happened? The CES link isn't there and ANN looks like shit!
It was fine in the preview!
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 2 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 07-Jan-2003 17:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
It's still good news, regardless on how the format looks on ANN. =) Gotta love this snowball effect!

Dammy
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 3 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 07-Jan-2003 18:26 GMT
This just keeps on getting better! See you in Las Vegas, Samuel!
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 4 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Fman on 07-Jan-2003 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (greenboy):
Yes - I have to agree that this is excellent news, as MOL is a fine application. If this was ported over to the Quark Kernel that would be a killer app for pegasos sales as far as I'm concerned.

Francois
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 5 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 07-Jan-2003 18:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
One of the link tags wasn't closed properly.

Just guessing, were you using AWeb?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 6 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 07-Jan-2003 18:55 GMT
Are they going to show MacOS running on Pegasos then? Or just another use of Maconlinux...

Guess they could be in very deep trouble if Apple's laywers see this?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 7 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 07-Jan-2003 19:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Fman):
Clearly. But I guess it's kinda complicated.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 8 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 07-Jan-2003 19:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Troels E):
Nice FUD. =)

Dammy
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 9 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 07-Jan-2003 19:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (dammy):
Wasn't meant as FUD.

Thought Apple's license agreement made it clear that MacOS only are allowed to run on Mac hardware? Never owned a mac so I don't know if it's true.

If it is true I can see Genesi get in trouble if they market the Pegasos as some kind of MAC clone/compatible. Maybe Apple's laywers wouldn't be to happy about it, as they don't want MAC clones.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 10 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 07-Jan-2003 19:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (dammy):
Thats not FUD. It is illegal to run MacOS on the Pegasos, and Apple WILL be at the CES (or most likely, anyway). He was just asking what they would show MOL doing? presumably running MorphOS in a window on Linux or something, which is also cool.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 11 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Jan-2003 20:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Christian Kemp):
Nope, IE 6.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 12 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jan-2003 20:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Peter Gordon):
"Thats not FUD. It is illegal to run MacOS on the Pegasos, and Apple WILL be at the CES (or most likely, anyway). He was just asking what they would show MOL doing? presumably running MorphOS in a window on Linux or something, which is also cool."

And apples the sort of company to have lawyers at hand, I'd be LMFAO if 5 minutes into the show Apples lawyers turn up and issue a C&D order right there.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 13 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 07-Jan-2003 20:46 GMT
Well, what's done at CES clearly follows US jurisdiction. So, the
questions are
a) can Apple actually forbid users to install their legally bought
software on whatever machine they want?
(compare the result of the Norwegian trial today, which stated that
it's legal to play DVD's that you've legally bought even on
'unauthorized' hardware, using decryption software).
b) have Apple included this clause for all versions of MacOS, or are
there some not-too-ancient versions that could safely be used without
any legal doubt?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 14 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jan-2003 21:07 GMT
I have heard that EULA are not above the local laws.
However there is a difference between showing a proof of concept and selling a product as another.
I guess a show like the CES is in the first category. I don't see any dealer selling pegasos mobos with OSX ...
If the user do it on its own it is not Genesi responsability.
And BTW technicaly MOL is a whole MAC emulator, it can be aimed at running any MAC OS (Linuxes, BSD that are not supported yet directly by the pegasos).
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 15 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 07-Jan-2003 21:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Christophe Decanini):
"And BTW technicaly MOL is a whole MAC emulator, it can be aimed at running any MAC OS (Linuxes, BSD that are not supported yet directly by the pegasos)."

Thanks Christophe, it was more something like that I was wondering about.

Still thinks they might get in trouble if Apple sees them run any MacOS on the Pegasos whether its "proof on concept" or marketed as beeing able to run MacOS.

I hope they have other stuff to show aswell so it doesn't look like a Mac clone that can emulate classic Amiga stuff. Isn't time to advertise MOS as a real new standalone platform at CES (I think so..)?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 16 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Francois Prowse on 07-Jan-2003 21:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Christophe Decanini):
Thanks Christophe thats what I was going to point out. MOL is more than Mac on Linux...it lets other PPC based (openfirmware) OS's run in a seperate environment - one of these being MacOS.

From a legal point of view the majority of users are running MOL on a mac on which they are legally allowed to run their OS.

I guess Genesi can push that MOL supports Linux, BeOS etc.....(just that it happens to run OSx is a bonus) Perhaps some integration into quark to provide an m-box would be good

Francois
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 17 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jan-2003 22:32 GMT
>as they don't want MAC clones.

Pegasos is none of Apple´s business.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 18 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by marktime on 07-Jan-2003 22:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Fman):
I agree, it doesn't have to run Mac OS X, if it was ported to pegasos, just using this to run Linux PPC in a window would be cool.

And who am I kidding running Mac OS X would be cool, but they don't have to do that at the show. But does it support hardware accelerated 3d games...I don't see how it could since quark doesn't even do that.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 19 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by tinman on 08-Jan-2003 00:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Johan Rönnblom):
> (compare the result of the Norwegian trial today, which stated that
> it's legal to play DVD's that you've legally bought even on
> 'unauthorized' hardware, using decryption software).

What's good for Norwegians isn't necessarily good for people who happen to be in the USA. Sounds like his defence is the same as Skylarov's - has that case been decided yet?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 20 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by mark on 08-Jan-2003 01:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Peter Gordon):
"Thats not FUD. It is illegal to run MacOS on the Pegasos"

Has this been decided in a court of law?

Just because something it written in in a licence doesn't make it the law; thankfully EULAs are not (yet) legally binding contracts.

It's somewhat similar to when Sony tried to stop people emulating the Playstation, and I thought they were unsuccessful.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 21 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by AppleMacOS user on 08-Jan-2003 03:29 GMT
This is what the MacOS license states:

"This License allows you to install and use the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled or Apple-licensed computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time. You may make one copy of the Apple Software in machine-readable form for backup purposes only. The backup copy must include all copyright information contained on the original." (From Section 2)

THUS, any emulator is considered illegal to running the MacOS. You can only run it on Apple computers. SO, using MOL, which is running on Linux, which is running on a Mac is legal, but anything else it illegal. If Genesi demostrates MOL on their Pegasos you can be sure Apple is going to contact them.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 22 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 08-Jan-2003 04:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (AppleMacOS user):
> This License allows you to install and use the Apple Software on a single
> Apple-labeled or Apple-licensed computer at a time.

This text doesn't expressly prohibit running the Mac OS on a non-Apple
computer. In other words it does not say "under no circumstances may you run
Mac OS on a non-Apple computer." Suppose I ran a tractor training school and
gave you a license to drive a tractor "on a farm" but you being a wise ass
drove the tractor around on a golf course. Are you then in violation of the
law? No. But certainly it's not covered by the license.

I would also raise the point that if it was legal, expressly legal in the
law of the land, for a person to operate a tractor however he sees fit, to
include operating it not only on a farm but on a golf course, then it might
actually be illegal for my tractor school to offer a license that attempts
to deny you this right.

I don't really have a personal stake in this because to me Mac OS is almost
worse than Microsoft OS, so please no flames. It is sort of an interesting
point though. Perhaps the reason that the Mac OS license does not expressly
prohibit use of a legally purchased OS on the single machine of the owner's
choice is because Apple recognized it would be legally dubious to do so.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 23 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Jan-2003 06:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (tinman):
They have not done any thing to stop DVD Jon to from cracking the DVD protection as there are no protections as for the case ruling, he goes free on all charges. The DVD that he used was his own. There are no piracy involved, hi has not disassembled any thing, nor has done any thing that he can’t do by the law.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 24 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 08-Jan-2003 08:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (mark):
@ mark:

> Just because something it written in in a licence doesn't make it
> the law; thankfully EULAs are not (yet) legally binding contracts.

Check out UCITA. You might be in for a surprise.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 25 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by rez on 08-Jan-2003 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Troels E):
no, to run mac-os, you have to have a mac, yes, but it can be dead and in parts. in few words : only one mac at a time : the real or the emu. Shapeshifter ? Have you had an Amiga in times too?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 26 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by rez on 08-Jan-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (AppleMacOS user):
ShapeShifter !
lamer.
you don't even know what you are talkin' about.
i am sad of those comics who are saying from there mighty us-continent that this is forbiden or you can't do that...
get lost.
your law are not our, you have to know it, for sake.

1) if you emulate a mac, you have to OWN a mac, and it MUST be off when emulated (only one mac at a time). Thus emulating a mac is perfectly legal.

2) writing stupidities on an eula is NOT LEGAL in EU. This is not a contract.
i can write on an eula : if you use my software, you have to give me your sister. Will you give me your sister ? will you drop out from your window if i told you so ? idiot.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 27 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Jan-2003 10:53 GMT
AppleMacOS user wrote:
[MacOS license quote]
"THUS, any emulator is considered illegal to running the MacOS."

Nonsense! Laws are made by parliaments. They are NOT written by
corporations on software packaging.

If this is the only clause that's supposed to forbid people from using
MacOS on an emulator, I'd say all it means is that Apple won't offer
any support in such cases, which seems fair enough.
However - all this depends on the local (national) laws. Maybe,
somewhere there is a law that makes it illegal to run MacOS on
non-Apple hardware, I don't know.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 28 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jan-2003 10:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (rez):
>1) if you emulate a mac, you have to OWN a mac, and it MUST be off when >emulated (only one mac at a time). Thus emulating a mac is perfectly legal.

And how many people would buy a Pegasos when the own a real mac? It is only
users like who would like to download a pirate MacOS binary from your
favourite warez site. I don't think that Apple really would care about
people really owning a Mac and running MacOs on something else, BUT, if
they don't act at all, people would think the rest is legal too.

>2) writing stupidities on an eula is NOT LEGAL in EU. This is not a contract.
>i can write on an eula : if you use my software, you have to give me your >sister. Will you give me your sister ? will you drop out from your window if i >told you so ? idiot.

And writing stupidities here should be considered illegal to. Idiot!!! First,
writing an eula is not illegal. In that case more or less all sold software
in europe would be illegal. Second, the MacOS elua does not restrict anything
at all besides its use. Nothing about your sister or lack of brain or anything.
Even if you have used the software, most eula would say: Fine if you don't
accept this, simply return the software for a refund. You will not be caused
any harm if you used the software and then found out that you didn't want to
comply with the eula. That why your stupid example doesn't work.
However, if parts of an eula is valid or not is not something I can tell and
most certainly you have no clue about. I am just pointing out why you are wrong
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 29 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 08-Jan-2003 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
Actually, as Ben Hermans stated here in some thread, the EULA may state whatever
it wants but in a court of law, the actual local (or international) laws will
apply, not anything written in the EULA.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 30 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by DDJ on 08-Jan-2003 13:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (rez):
So if Genesi bring a PPC-MAC with a original copy of MAC OS X "jaguar", and keep the MAC turned off, then they can Emulate the MAC in a Pegasos all day an night :), without any trobles with the law ?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 31 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Jan-2003 14:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
"It is only users like who would like to download a pirate MacOS
binary from your favourite warez site."

No, you can buy MacOS from a reseller. It was ages since you needed a
ROM for MacOS.

And yes, you can probably write pretty much in an EULA. But that
doesn't mean the user has to follow it. The law decides what is valid
and what isn't. Over here, consumers are pretty well protected and I
find it unlikely that Apple would be able to restrict users from
installing the software on whatever they like, or use the CD to build
a 1:1 replica of Osama bin Ladin's nose.

However, it's a different issue what resellers may be allowed to do.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 32 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jan-2003 14:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
@Alkis:

> Actually, as Ben Hermans stated here in some thread,

Since when did you give credit to anything BH said?
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 33 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 08-Jan-2003 15:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Troels E):
Sure it's pure FUD. Apple may not like it, but there is not a whole hell of alot they can do about it as long as MOL is not supplying pirated OS-X. You think M$ likes all those emulators out for Windows? They can't even stop a thin client like Lindows. ;-)

Dammy
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 34 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by FMan on 08-Jan-2003 17:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (dammy):
We've been using Amax,Shapeshiftter, Emplant and Fusion for ages on the Amiga now and I didn't see you people complaining then. Now that Genesi has taken this angle there is critisism of the legalities of this. MOL happens to run on the AmigaOne under Linux, and I don't seem to recall any bitching about the legalities of that either.

At this stage we have no idea what Samuel is working on for Genesi (if anything) .... but like I said before MOL can be used for more than just MacOS.

FP
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 35 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 08-Jan-2003 17:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
I said it too but Alkis did not believe me at that time. It didn't suit his agenda then but now on the other hand... *sigh*

It was actually decided in a court of law that the EULA doesn't really apply at all. In a relevant case, like A/Max vs Apple, Apple lost in their attempt to sue the A/Max for making the MacOS run on Amiga hardware. Just like in this case with the Pegasos and MOL, it of course required that you had legally purchased the MacOS.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 36 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 08-Jan-2003 17:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (rez):
I may at any time I like, walk down to the mac shop a few hundred meters away from here and buy myself a copy of OSX, bring it back home and have it running on _whatever_ hardware I like. Be it Pegasos, an emulator on a PC, or whatever. All perfectly legal, and there is _nothing_ Apple can do about it.

EULAs that are not compatible with the law, are not in any way legally binding and can in general be ignored.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 37 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jan-2003 18:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (AppleMacOS user):
> "This License allows you to install and use the Apple Software on a single
> Apple-labeled or Apple-licensed computer at a time. ..."

> THUS, any emulator is considered illegal to running the MacOS.

No. It is considered a breach of an End-User License Agreement. It has nothing to do with legality.

You won't be eligible for free support calls to Apple. BFD! If you bought and payed for the copy of MacOS you're running under emulation, and you live in any civilised country I can think of, then you've got the law on your side.

I only skim EULAs to check for things like "by installing this you agree to run our spyware", other than that EULAs are safe to ignore.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 38 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 08-Jan-2003 18:36 GMT
Well, that's what Bill & Raquel posted in a comment at
morphos-news.de:

-----8<-------

We are very pleased to have Samuel with us at CES. He is a very
talented Developer and we have appreciated his support at recent
Pegasos presentations in Gothenburg and Stockholm.

Certainly, there is some confusion regarding the EULA and the future
of this kind of "arrangement" between a seller and buyer of goods. IP
protection and freedom of use are two different things. We do not want
to be the ones to take Apple on, but we can if it comes to that. We
predict the future here will be along the lines of how copying videos
is handled today. After all, you did pay for the OS and it is a
different thing than the hardware itself.

Best regards from Las Vegas!
R&B

P.S. We are please to have Felix Schwarz from Iospirit with us too.
Look for Genesi to include more Developers like this in CeBIT in
Hannover. For example, Thomas Steiding of e.p.i.c. has already
confirmed his desire to be there with Genesi.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 39 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 08-Jan-2003 21:16 GMT
If EULAs are null and void Apple is going to have to setup a system of faxing contracts or some such for purchases of Mac OS X licenses. The only other option is increasing the price of Mac OS X, however users already balked when the price was raised to $120 and this would likely increase piracy.

I see the EULA as an agreement. Nobody is forcing you to use the software. If you don't like the EULA that doesn't give you the right to break it. I do favour restrictions on EULAs so they aren't overly vague but you have to recognize that Mac OS X is Apple's product, not yours. They use it to boost their own hardware sales, not to boost A1/Pegasos sales. That's why it only costs $120. I mean why do you think Windows is only $100? They give away the OS so you buy a new version of Office and administration SW, THERE is where they make their billions.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 40 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Jan-2003 21:22 GMT
"If EULAs are null and void Apple is going to have to setup a system
of faxing contracts or some such for purchases of Mac OS X
licenses."

I doubt it. Surely they'd lose most of their sales this way. And the
administration of this system would clearly be a nightmare, too.
Samuel Rydh (MacOnLinux) to be guest of Genesi at CES. : Comment 41 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 09-Jan-2003 12:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (samface):
Sorry but what I didn't agree with was the actual law statements, not the EULA
stuff:)
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