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[News] C=One almost ready for mass-productionANN.lu
Posted on 18-Jan-2003 10:39 GMT by Lewis Mistreated31 comments
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First pictures of the CommodoreOne pre-production board are now online: "the pictures section has been extended by 11 pictures of the pre-production board. Basic testing has already been done, all chips are responding positively to diagnostic access. A 100% test procedure will be developed this weekend."
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 1 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 18-Jan-2003 10:33 GMT
Great news! :-D

This is one of the most interesting hardware project since the last "real" Amiga, IMHO. I'll buy one the minute it's released!
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 2 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Frans on 18-Jan-2003 11:24 GMT
I agree, I've already placed my order at Computer City.
Apparently different cpu modules could get released and the whole system would become a different computer, like Atari 800 or ZX Spectrum...
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 3 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 18-Jan-2003 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (takemehomegrandma):
I'm seriously considering getting one too for "old times sake". Oh the fun of typing in magazine listings into old PETs, my VIC-20, C64 and C128... the thrill of playing Revenge of the Mutant Camels, Elite and Shadowfore 2: Enigma Force...
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 4 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 18-Jan-2003 13:20 GMT
I was just thinking that it's so nice to have a project that NOBODY (well, nobody worth mentioning) can attack as the CommodoreOne is no threat to the A1, Pegasos, AROS, Amithlon, etc...
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 5 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Jools Smyth on 18-Jan-2003 14:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Darrin):
The AmigaOne/Pegasos is no threat to this machine. It's way more interesting than the AmigaOne/Pegasos could ever be :-)
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 6 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 18-Jan-2003 14:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Frans):
>Apparently different cpu modules could get released and the
>whole system would become a different computer, like Atari 800

Well Atari 800 has same CPU as the C64. Main differences is in the Atari's superior video hardware. The Atari 800 was the first computer to be able to show 256 colours on screen simultaneously and having multiple resolutions on the same screen simultaneously (using display list interrupts). Also multiple hardware sprites (player-missile graphics) and hardware collision detection.

Sounds familiar?

Yep, the Atari 8-bit was the true ancestor of the Amiga, not the C64. Both designed by Jay Miner, both featuring the same technique of closely-knit custom hardware to lift it above everything else around at the time.

R.I.P. Jay
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 7 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Ryu on 18-Jan-2003 14:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Lando):
Amen, may he rest in peace
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 8 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 19-Jan-2003 03:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Lando):
Well, actually, the Atari 800 had superior graphics in some ways and
inferior in other ways. Clearly it was a learning experience for
Jay who went on to better things. ;) The C64 could do display
interrupts, sprites, and hardware collision too. It didn't have as
many colors or as wide variety of resolutions, but in some ways it
was actually more flexible, like being able to combine multicolor
(160x200) and hi-res (320x200) graphics without using interrupts, on
the same line even. This was accomplished by using an extra byte for
the background color of each character, which also allowed for using
all 16 colors in hi-res where the Atari would be usually be stuck with
2 without fancy hardware tricks. The downside of course is this meant
twice as many bytes to move around the screen if you were going to take
advantage of this feature and not ignore it...2000 bytes vs. 1000 bytes
is a lot when you're talking about a 1MHz CPU. ;)

Anyway a lot of games were totally identical on C64 and Atari (e.g.,
Zone Ranger). Some were actually better-looking on C64 (Archon II),
some were worse (Rescue on Fractalus, but only because of the intro
on the Atari, the actual game was identical). And of course the C64
had much better sound hardware. The Atari had a better built-in BASIC
though. But the C64 hardware, while less "clean", had bunches of nifty
hidden features which kept being discovered as the years went by...it
turned out you could do some totally wacky things with the spacing between
vertical lines, as well as being able to put stuff outside the borders
and thus effectively get higher than 320x200, etc.

But anyway, for better or worse, much of my computing is on my AmigaOne
now, probably going to 100% when AmigaOS4 is done, so I won't be getting
a CommodoreOne. The C64 was cool because you, as a programmer, could wrap
your head around the entire machine and know everything that was going on
at all times. But I find that Frodo is enough for those retro moments,
and now that I have 2 computers I really don't have anywhere to put another.
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 9 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Jan-2003 10:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Jools Smyth):
> The AmigaOne/Pegasos is no threat to this machine. It's way more interesting
> than the AmigaOne/Pegasos could ever be :-)

I agree. The CommodoreOne will perhaps not be as useful as the A1/Pegasos, but it will defenitely be much more interesting as a hobby computer for "techies", (not only from a retro perspective IMHO).
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 10 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 19-Jan-2003 11:27 GMT
..this *is* so neat..and the new m/b design is so much better.

now...all i ask,is could the formfactor be shrunk slightly
so that i can actually put it INTO one of my C64 cases?? :-)

alan
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 11 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 19-Jan-2003 12:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (takemehomegrandma):
>I agree. The CommodoreOne will perhaps not be as useful as the A1/Pegasos,
>but it will defenitely be much more interesting as a hobby computer

The C=ommodoreOne is definately the bee's knes!!! No one can deny that!!
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 12 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Jeri Ellsworth on 19-Jan-2003 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (alan buxey):
Hi,
I made the form factor small enough for a C=64 case and the CF ejector button will even slightly protrude out the front of the case!

Jeri
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 13 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Jan-2003 13:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Jeri Ellsworth):
:-D

BTW, is that the "Breadbox" case or the "Model C" (was it called that way, or was it "C64 2" or something like that? Anyway, you know what I mean)?
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 14 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Jeri Ellsworth on 19-Jan-2003 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (takemehomegrandma):
Hi,
I know it will fit the bread box style. I don't have a c64c here to compare against.

Jeri
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 15 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Pteppic on 19-Jan-2003 17:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Jeri Ellsworth):
Hi Jeri

What happened to all the cool scribblings of alien spaceships etc. that were on the prototypes?

pt.
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 16 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Jeri Ellsworth on 19-Jan-2003 18:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Pteppic):
Hi,
They have their cloaking device on.

Jeri
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 17 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Jan-2003 18:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Jeri Ellsworth):
So if all the testing turns out OK, about when will it go into production? And will the sale price still be about the same?

I am really looking forward to this! :-)
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 18 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Jeri Ellsworth on 19-Jan-2003 18:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (takemehomegrandma):
Hi,
The price will still be about $249 or Euro. This is a little more than I calculated 7-8 months ago, mainly because I'm using higher quality parts like the CF ejectors, larger PCB, more FPGA gates, flash rom and double stack ATX connectors.

Jeri
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 19 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by mbpark on 19-Jan-2003 20:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Jeri Ellsworth):
Jeri,

Excellent job!

I just bought a C128D case to possibly fit your C=1 in, too.

Meanwhile, I'll be buying 2. One for jbev, one for myself.

mbpark
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 20 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Allsopp on 19-Jan-2003 22:25 GMT
Definetly getting one of these. Very interesting indeed.One question though, what would be the best way to get all of those 100's of tapes I have up in the attic to work with this?
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 21 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Jools Smyth on 19-Jan-2003 22:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (mbpark):
jbevren ? dont buy him anything. hes completely mad. :-)
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 22 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Jan-2003 22:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Daniel Allsopp):
Aha! Could it be that a third party gizmo market is allready materializing?!
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 23 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by slothpuck on 20-Jan-2003 01:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (takemehomegrandma):
It looks like an intresting idea. But I'm wondering how long it'll last - I mean what happens when supplies of the CPU dries up? Right now everything is x86 or ... .um, x86. And how come all the other chips such as the video chips didn't cost $ millions to produce? How has it been done for such a low price?

It's a neat idea but right now I can't think of any real pratical purpose. So how is it gonna succeed?

And, does anyone know of a supplier in the UK ?

SP
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 24 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by yeah right on 20-Jan-2003 03:50 GMT
clearly you are telling the wrong market.... the lego and abio market or even former C64 and VIC 20 market would be a far far better market than the brain dead MS frankenstiened Amiga market.

Seriously, do you really want those with bolts sticking out their neck and other unmentioned places, to be some of the first to get and talk about the C1?
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 25 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Steve on 20-Jan-2003 05:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (slothpuck):
The CPU's most likely won't dry up. They are an all-around good machine for embedded work. LOTS of embedded in the world. I mean LOTS. The video hardware didn't take millions to make because it seems to be in FPGA's.
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 26 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Hammer on 20-Jan-2003 05:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (slothpuck):
>It looks like an intresting idea. But I'm wondering how long it'll last - I >mean what happens when supplies of the CPU dries up? Right now everything is >x86 or ... .um, x86.
Note the following;
1. AMD has 64bit MIPS(a.k.a. Alchemy) based CPU lines. (Note that MIPS Technologies welcomes AMD to the MIPS alliance).
http://www.mips.com/pressReleases/041102.html
2. Intel has StrongArm/XScale based CPU lines.
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 27 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 20-Jan-2003 15:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (slothpuck):
>It looks like an intresting idea. But I'm wondering how long it'll last - I
>mean what happens when supplies of the CPU dries up? Right now everything is
>x86 or ... .um, x86. And how come all the other chips such as the video chips
>didn't cost $ millions to produce? How has it been done for such a low price?

FPGAs.

The Western Design Center is still selling 65c816s...
http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/ch816S.html

>It's a neat idea but right now I can't think of any real pratical purpose. So
>how is it gonna succeed?

As a hack, a 'toy' for hobbyists demosceners etc., and potentially as a replacement/upgrade for whatever ungodly systems out there actually rely on the C64. (Industrial process-control/etc?) It's not *supposed* to replace your Windows/Amiga box. ;)
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 28 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 20-Jan-2003 15:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
Bah, didn't see Steve already answered it!
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 29 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Vigo on 22-Jan-2003 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
One should not forget that the name "Commodore One" is some kind of misleading, since the whole architecture is much more powerful than emulating old-style computers. Since the FPGA chips on the machine are reconfigurable on the fly, it means you can adapt the hardware easily to your software requirements. Need a high speed blitter? Just upload the code into the FPGA while the CPU is running. Need a fast ALU supporting the 65816 for vector calculations? Just upload it. Need a 2nd Co-Processor? Just upload the code.

This hardware is REALLY a milestone, compared to the computer architectures existing today (including Pegasus and AmigaOne). Dont judge it by its name.
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 30 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Jan-2003 15:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Vigo):
> This hardware is REALLY a milestone, compared to the computer architectures existing today

Isn't Transmeta doing something like that, a CPU that can be reconfigured via software ?
C=One almost ready for mass-production : Comment 31 of 31ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith on 22-Jan-2003 21:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
This is similar to what Transmeta is doing, but in this case it's the motherboard chipset that's reconfigurable. For example, if you want to add another blitter, more sound chips to do weird modulation effects or a vector processor, you just put it in. One example Jens mentioned in the Yahoo mailing list was adding a multiplication unit to speed up drawing fractals (the 6502 does not have a MUL instruction so it's pretty slow to draw mandelbrots). The only constraint is the size of the programmable chip (30,000 logic gates is the last I heard, most simple building blocks like adders use 3-10 gates). The best part about this is that it's doable at runtime, and you don't need to reboot or anything.

I think the design is nothing short of revolutionary - I would not be surprised if programmable chips are as common 5 years from now as blitters are in contemporary gfx cards. People talk about the "spirit of the Amiga" in the AmigaOne and the Pegasos, but IMHO the C-1 is what really embodies the "wow" factor of the A500. It's only a 20MHz design (The A500 was a 7MHz system), but I'm sure faster systems will follow in a couple of years. I suspect the relatively low clock frequency will push people to make use of the programmable chipset, and we should see some very interesting programs in future. I wonder how long before we see an MP3 player made up of software and virtual hardware...
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