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[News] Genesi needs You! ANN.lu Posted on 18-Jan-2003 17:23 GMT by Senex 150 comments View flat View list In a posting on Amiga.org Raquel Velasco and Bill Buck of Genesi announced among other things a big deal for Set-top-Boxes built using the Pegasos and MorphOS which delivers the necessary cash-flow for the next steps. The team of bplan GmbH, the creators of the Pegasos and MorphOS, and Thendic-France SARL, the exclusive master distributor, will be merged into Genesi shortly. The Pegasos will be bundled with MorphOS, DebianPPC, Mac-on-Linux and suite of games and application software. OpenBSD and Gentoo ports are underway (available before CeBIT) and a Debian Development Team has been identified to create a special Pegasos distro. Discussions are underway for the following OS ports to the Pegasos: BeOS, OpenBeOS, NetBSD, Zeta, and NewOS. SuSE and Mandrake (we will see what happens there) are already running on the Pegasos. Many things still need to be done and we are interested in all constructive involvement. The idea is to rally a technically oriented community to the Pegasos before a mass-market for the Pegasos is attempted. We hope by taking this intermediate step the Pegasos will be more competitive with the BIGGER companies in the IT field. By the way, we will continue to fully support any effort to bring AmigaOS or AmigaDE to the platform (in fact, we have taken the necessary legal steps anyway to make sure this will happen since working cooperatively together has not been possible). We are looking for Developers and highly motivated individuals who want to establish Development Teams and User Groups. In both cases, we will be offering special pricing on the Pegasos, CPU and OS upgrades, and peripherals, as we move ahead. There will be special aspects of our support sites that will provide the latest updates for any aspect of the platform online. We will have a software download section soon. Developers will be paid for their work, as many have discovered already. We are committed to moving ahead in big way. Tell us what you want to do – there is plenty of opportunity! If you decide you want to become involved www.pegasos-usa.com up and running. Please check it out. This is a model we want to franchise. We would like to have www.pegasos-?????.com up and running soon too, for example, www.pegasos-italy.com, www.pegasos-newzealand.com or www.pegasos-nevada.com. When you click on support look where you go…. We are interested in establishing Distributors and User Groups in every possible location. These can also be linked through the site. For User Groups and Distributors, we can even register and supply the URL, the sources for the website and even web-hosting if necessary. We will support our chosen partners with the necessary resources as required -- if someone else has registered a URL already we will create an alternate and official domain. NOTE: the final URL for these associated sites has NOT yet been determined. You can find an interesting User Group site here: www.dijidesign.com/spug. Going forward, further information can be found at www.pegasosppc.com, www.morphos-news.de, www.thendic-france.com (this site has already begun the transformation) and www.bplan-gmbh.de. We just hired an internationally experienced Management Team (resumes can be read at www.crossbee.com) and the integration/coordination work between the companies, the development teams, and the marketing plans have begun. We will be moving into new offices in Paris, Frankfurt, and Luxembourg shortly. The Pegasos was featured last week at the world's largest Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. The Genesi Booth was found in the Break-Through Technologies Pavilion, South Hall, Booth #29101. We will have a complete Show Report online soon. CES is the current culmination of our announced Show schedule. You can see where we have been at www.pegasosppc.com under “Events.” Before we venture out in mass again, we will be putting a solid marketing plan into place. Shows like CES are expensive. Between CES and Aachen we spent nearly $100,000 sharing our message and our commitment to the platform (not to mention the cost of the other public demonstrations/event support). We are thinking that it may be better to bring our Developers on a working “vacation” rather than to fund the next big Show. In the meanwhile, we will fully support User Groups as we did last weekend in Finland. We really appreciate the support we have in Finland and the capable and intelligent people there. About the future, Genesi has been contracted (and we mean revenue) to build a DTV set-top box using the PPC and MorphOS. This opportunity has created the necessary cash flow and business case to spawn the next level of our success. Strategically, we are continuing ahead with our vision of the eclipsis and the Pegasos will get better and better as the PPC evolves and MorphOS continues to be refined and improved (and thankfully it all ties into smart cards). Things are looking very “cool.” The Pegasos and Genesi will be successful; we hope you will consider being part of it all. Please send us an email at bbrv@genesi.lu and we will do our best to answer you thoughtfully and positively. Sincerely, Raquel and Bill. Genesi needs You! : Comment 51 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by greenboy on 19-Jan-2003 01:32 GMT The pricing I would say is more a factor of starting out with a new product (PPC yet!) with a modest immediate market and as of now, limited support chipsets. As demand grows, those cicumstances will likely change. But when you start talking about filling large orders for bundled solutions to major service providers who already have a lock on regional markets you are talking on a whole new scale that makes mild redesign for desired form factor and per-unit costing, balance out quite a bit differently. And actually Pegasos is pretty darn small and there are already half-height cards available, and it's not too hard to imagine L connectors to get them sitting off sideways for near-term slimline applications... And then, eclipsis? Sales of entire solutions to OEMs and niches etc can in turn help finance the desktop side of the equation. Developers on one side of it may be building apps or subsystems that can be used on the other side of the operation, etc. Again, this is much more realistic than supposing a small Amiga ghetto market could be grown to sustainable size all on its own. And it can be done with OS and hardware platform crossover, the permutations different but the basic technology being used for both sides. Like I said earlier, the Psylent approach that seems to be the basis for this concept looks like CDTV or CD32 done right. So... we'll see about the rest, eh? : } Genesi needs You! : Comment 52 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Daniel Miller on 19-Jan-2003 01:32 GMT In reply to Comment 41 (Darrin): Darrin wrote: > I might be buying an AmigaOne, but I very impressed by the way that > the Pegasos is being marketed. When people go to that much effort, > I have to hope that they have some sucess to reward their hard work. What! Are you sick or something? I never thought to hear you say something that nice! Maybe you better call a hospital! Genesi needs You! : Comment 53 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 01:35 GMT In reply to Comment 49 (Darrin): > into our C64 only to POKE the graphics data into the same area of RAM which held the program because of a simple typo!!! That looks like a nice anchor to discuss the benefits of full memory protection and sand boxes ;) (just kidding, don't hit me) Genesi needs You! : Comment 54 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 01:45 GMT In reply to Comment 44 (Anonymous): >150 US$ for a board with 1GHz cpu Please be aware VIA's 1GHz CPU is not even half the realworld speed of a P3-1Ghz. Genesi needs You! : Comment 55 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 01:56 GMT In reply to Comment 48 (Anonymous): >History aside, the Peasos is still too expensive. No wonder, they sold only about 1000 (?) machines yet. When they sell more, pricewill go down. Hey, you could get a Nokia mobile phone and a standalone DVD playerfor 1 Euro here, the DSL modems were free of charge, too, because the companiescreate interest with low entry expenses and hope to get it back by phone and DSLcharges later. Genesi needs You! : Comment 56 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by bbrv on 19-Jan-2003 02:12 GMT In reply to Comment 55 (Anonymous): ...of course, it is a new board! Only, the CPU and the OS is the same. Best regards, R&B Genesi needs You! : Comment 57 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 02:25 GMT In reply to Comment 54 (Anonymous): >>150 US$ for a board with 1GHz cpu > >Please be aware VIA's 1GHz CPU is not even half the realworld speed of a P3-1Ghz. The cpu may not be as bad as this sounds, because (I assume) this number is for overall performance, including floating point. However, the itx platform is clearly not designed as gaming platform, so floating point performance is secondary. Btw, its latest on-board gfx core is "dvd-enhanced" (motion compensation ?). It's perfectly suitable as basis for a STB box. There is even a do-it-yourself manual on the internet. Some guy gutted is VCR, inserted a VIA board (which is not much larger than a CD), added a digital sat card for a few bucks and had his STB. Linux software is free. The board needs 12-15W and only a subset of ATX voltages, so a very very simple power supply will do. The board can boot from a CF card and needs no HD. I wonder how Gensi can compete with this mass-produced ulta-small inexpensive board. Genesi needs You! : Comment 58 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by JoannaK on 19-Jan-2003 02:41 GMT In reply to Comment 57 (Anonymous): Better system integration (= application sesific single board solution), better softwares (?) and total solution... and If nothing else helps, better salesmen abd marketting. In the end it's the usually most important thing on making sales. :) Genesi needs You! : Comment 59 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by 3seas on 19-Jan-2003 02:49 GMT yeah, force it on the consumers thru those who have control over the market of using STB..... that will make everyone like it...... if they only knew what the hell it was.... Oh wait, let me change channels..... now wheres that pay per view Pr0n..... Genesi needs You! : Comment 60 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Senex on 19-Jan-2003 07:00 GMT In reply to Comment 57 (Anonymous): > I wonder how Gensi can compete with this mass-produced > ulta-small inexpensive board. After I've been discussing with my cousin (former Atari-user) some days ago about security, spyware and a recent deal Boeing made over their european competitor, the following came to my mind: Don't you think for many people already the total solution could be the key factor, despite pricing or whatever? To get a tailor-made, "custom" system. The more "special", the more secure. Some may not want their devices (both as a company or a customer) running on Windows, for example. Some might prefer a european company over a US-based, I could imagine. - Well, I don't want to go more into detail regarding this because I don't want this thread to go off-topic with political and industrial espionage issues. Especially since it is not important here if corresponding opinions are justified or not - my point is just that there are several possibilities one could imagine to explain interest in devices based on Genesi's products. Genesi needs You! : Comment 61 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Don Cox on 19-Jan-2003 08:22 GMT In reply to Comment 44 (Anonymous): "Software houses are a rare commodity in the Amiga market ;-) " Oh I don't know. Any house with a bedroom containing an Amiga would count. Genesi needs You! : Comment 62 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by priest on 19-Jan-2003 09:38 GMT In reply to Comment 26 (Kronos): There was press release about that at Sendo's web pages. Genesi needs You! : Comment 63 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by DaveW on 19-Jan-2003 09:54 GMT In reply to Comment 58 (JoannaK): "Better system integration (= application sesific single board solution" Eh? Can you compare contrast against some others so I can get an idea of what you mean??? "), better softwares (?)" it is software ( plural of software is software, don't ask me why ). " and total solution... and If nothing else helps, better salesmen abd marketting. In the end it's the usually most important thing on making sales. :) " That's an admission and a half. Genesi needs You! : Comment 64 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by The_Editor on 19-Jan-2003 10:04 GMT In reply to Comment 49 (Darrin): Darrin said: {and how many of us spent a whole evening typing in a basic program into our C64 only to POKE the graphics data into the same area of RAM which held the program because of a simple typo!!! Of course, we'd NEVER back up the program to tape first because it took 10 minutes to save it...} Oh yeah ..... Lol .. Bin there, done that. I remember going round my mates house, who had a C64 in his "Computer-Den"under the stairs and spending hours punching in a listing out of a magazine ( It was a downhill skier type game).. I did the typing cos I did typing at school and was faster and more accurate) we just finishing punching it in and sat back ready to run it when ................. click ...Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Darkness !! ............ His big brother had pulled the extension lead for the comp out of the wall (in the kitchen) to plug his electric shaver in !! There were to people wild eyed and unbelieving, that emerged from the Den ... And his Bro looked at us and said.................................... What ???????????????????????????????????? ( I never, Ever, did that again ) Genesi needs You! : Comment 65 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by alan buxey on 19-Jan-2003 10:57 GMT In reply to Comment 17 (greenboy): ...ummm, when i last looked, a typical modern x86 box could run almost every OS thats running. certainly your aim for having a hardware platform that can run many developed OS's is already here...and has been for a while. and x86 is cheaper. you must follow a much better reason as to why PowerPC is the way forward ( i know my reasons..but the public arent as educated ;-) ). and also a valid reason why only the Pegasos can fulfill this....and not the other main solution (ie Teron aka AmigaONE). and also why , for example, ANOTHER company shouldnt be supported who turn out a full implementation of IBM's POP PPC spec... perhaps with a Power4 CPU ;-) ...following on , by desperately asking for official 3rd-party support position in a public forum, looks more like Phoenix have either lost out, been too slow...or just missed the boat in general. btw, QNX was never the right path. that OS is so backwater and fundamentally aimed at the serious serious market. alan Genesi needs You! : Comment 66 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by AdmV on 19-Jan-2003 10:58 GMT I just knew it was a matter of time before we hit back on 'Visicorp' highway. I've long been suspicious about motivation and end product aims of many parties. Well I wish them well, but this is old hat, old news, and right into competing marketplaces with things like Apples 'I-life' ideals and Windows/MS media station and tablets. Bit of a joke really. By the way, I hope all you Pegasos owners now see where the high £$ cost of your boards is actually going. Its going into set top box products, not your niche corner/os/box Doomed to death AdmV Genesi needs You! : Comment 67 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jan-2003 11:05 GMT In reply to Comment 66 (AdmV): > Bit of a joke really. By the way, I hope all you Pegasos owners now see where > the high £$ cost of your boards is actually going. Its going into set top box > products, not your niche corner/os/box I guess you've not understood much, have you? The STB deall cannot be doomed to fail because it's a _deal_, that is they've been contracted to build STB's for another company, which is going or has already bought them. Moreover, the price of the Pegasos is _lower_ than the AmigaONE's one. Genesi needs You! : Comment 68 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by alan buxey on 19-Jan-2003 11:07 GMT In reply to Comment 48 (Anonymous): ...i dont understand how you can say the Pegasos is too expensive? its only around 500 EURO's . which, for the custom mini-ATX format that it is, with CPU upgrade board which allows DUAL-CPU usage (check out how much more you pay for DUAL-CPU in x86 world...and those boards dont come in small sizes) QUIET (no need for noisey fans like 1GHZ+ x86 systems) pay cheap, get cheap. I paid 500 ukp for my 060/PPC card for my A1200. years before that i paid 450 UKP for a 030/50MHz for my A1200. I paid 400 UKP for my A1200 when it came out (same for A500 back in early nineties). the Amiga market will die totally if people are tight with money and hope to get a new system for just one-weeks salary. alan Genesi needs You! : Comment 69 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by alan buxey on 19-Jan-2003 11:11 GMT In reply to Comment 54 (Anonymous): ..yep. i benchmarked one (i was hoping to use one as a box for FREEVO (freevo.sourceforge.net) and it came up with speeds less than that of a 600MHz celeron. pity. on the other hand...for a STB you dont NEED vast power....you need to change the format....you dont have STB's with all those computer outputs! you just want video/data in, TV/svideo/scart etc out. maybe USB for some extra functionality...eg data xfer via a USB keyring thing and a smartcard reader system. by the way, if someone can port the components/system of freevo to Q/box (or Amiga version to run on MorphOS) then that will be a killer app! there again, just a native PVR application would do! 8-) alan Genesi needs You! : Comment 70 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Darrin on 19-Jan-2003 11:43 GMT In reply to Comment 64 (The_Editor): >>Darkness !! ............ His big brother had pulled the extension lead for the comp out of the wall (in the kitchen) to plug his electric shaver in !! Have the police found out where you guys buried the body yet? ;-) Genesi needs You! : Comment 71 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Senex on 19-Jan-2003 11:44 GMT In reply to Comment 66 (AdmV): @AdmV: "By the way, I hope all you Pegasos owners now see where the high £$ cost of your boards is actually going. Its going into set top box products, not your niche corner/os/box." STB's aren't their main or only aim. They're just offering their products to everyone who thinks he could make use of it. Just as, for one example, that one company approached them to build for this company "some" (rather a damn lot) MorphOS-PPC-based STB's. Genesi attends CES and CeBIT to just show what they have and get to know further companies with further ideas and plans for that Genesi's products could be useful. And by the way: at AI everyone liked the idea of making money by selling a product for many different platforms. And here, where it's not only some new just sharing the name product but a really amigan OS (in look&feel and compatibility) that is running not only on the desktop devices but also on handhelds, STBs and probably further stuff, it suddenly turns into something negative? Please never forget that the key developers are long-time Amiga-users as you and I. And they certainly didn't take all the risks and work on themselves back then to preserve and continue the user-experience of the Amiga when the parent company declared the "classic" to be dead if they would be satisfied today by just developing for Settopboxes...! Genesi needs You! : Comment 72 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Jan-2003 11:57 GMT In reply to Comment 57 (Anonymous): >>> 150 US$ for a board with 1GHz cpu >> Please be aware VIA's 1GHz CPU is not even half the realworld speed of a >> P3-1Ghz. > The cpu may not be as bad as this sounds, because (I assume) this number is > for overall performance, including floating point. I have two VIA Epia boards with C3 processors. I must say I like them. They are incredibly small and yet they contain many features. That way it's kind of comparable to the Pegasos, and the Epia even offers on board graphics. Both Pegasos and Epia are also very quiet (ranging from silent to mute, depending on the other components in the system). But the C3 processor is very low performance. It sure suits my needs (file servers for bulk storage) but don't imagine yourself watching software decoded DVD's on them! You could of course add one of those DVD/Divx hardware decoding PCI cards, but that would add cost. > I wonder how Gensi can compete with this mass-produced ulta-small inexpensive > board. How about doing a mass-produced ultra-small inexpensive board? :-) But a board more suited for STB usage than the VIA Epia, with highly integrated components. Have a look at (for instance): http://mirror.ati.com/products/builtsettop.html And when including one of those (or similar) components on a board I would imagine that you won't even need such a fast CPU as a G3@600, you could easily settle with a much cheaper one (but still PPC and MorphOS). And the overall cost/price would then depend on the production volume. And who said that Genesi's deal isn't about mass production? I am no HW engineer whatsoever, but I truly believe that it would be very much possible indeed to make a new PPC mobo of the Epia's size and functionality with integrated silicon for STB usage. It won't perhaps be as expandable and modular as the Pegasos, but it doesn't have to be. In fact, it shouldn't be, because that would only bring up the costs/price. The Epia is cheap but low power (needs extra components) and too general in it's design. It's somewhat "stuck in the middle". What's needed is a custom design, specialized mobo towards STB. Genesi needs You! : Comment 73 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Iggy Drougge on 19-Jan-2003 12:15 GMT In reply to Comment 65 (alan buxey): If the x86 is cheaper, then please tell us why there's never been a game console using it. It's also more cumbersome to program for (going by what all programmers I know say), and when used in its usual PC environment it's surrounded by lots of technologies about as old as many of the ANN posters. Also, any comparison between the Pegasos and that Taiwanese/Korean VIA board are moot. No serious buyer of an STB would just look at what he can buy at the computer shop and stuff it into an ATX box. The integration costs would lead to higher volumes than the Pegasos but quite probably smaller volumes than the VIA board, which might even the price out. Genesi needs You! : Comment 74 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Sam Smith on 19-Jan-2003 12:39 GMT In reply to Comment 73 (Iggy Drougge): There is of course the XBox. But the choice of x86 was probably more down to MS having a personal preference for it due to their heavy x86 bias rather than cost. --- Sam Genesi needs You! : Comment 75 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Daniel Miller on 19-Jan-2003 13:33 GMT In reply to Comment 66 (AdmV): > Bit of a joke really. By the way, I hope all you Pegasos owners now > see where the high £$ cost of your boards is actually going. Its > going into set top box products, not your niche corner/os/box > Doomed to death > AdmV Good grief, what are you with this drama "doomed to death?" Some kind of vulture? I hope they do make a bunch of digital television set-top boxes, maybe I will buy one. These are going to to run MorphOS AFAIK, so they will run fxPaint and BirdieShoot and Voyager and so on and the legacy Amiga software that MorphOS runs. Genesi will continue to market a standard desktop computer. There is no downside to this that I can see. Not you necessarily, but it seems to me like people are so scared of change that they react with fear and criticism to almost anything. It's all good news though! For instance I am into convergence technology. This could be the single convergence product that replaces the TV set, desktop computer, and who knows maybe VCR/DVD and telephone too. Why is this good? Well it frees up some space in your home for one thing, and hopefully simplifies things so you can focus on whatever you need to be focusing on in your life. Add to the above concept a handheld that syncs to the homesystem and allows you to take your necessary data "on the road" and you are really looking at something groundbreaking that is an extremely marketable proposition. Instead of making grudging remarks and sniping at each other, we really should stop resisting change and enjoy these positive developments that are happening around us. Genesi needs You! : Comment 76 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Skyraker on 19-Jan-2003 13:44 GMT In reply to Comment 27 (Skyraker): Hey, i didn't post on ann.lu.... Someone must have copied my comments from amiga.org... Genesi needs You! : Comment 77 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Jan-2003 13:52 GMT In reply to Comment 33 (JoannaK): > Funny thing.. I thought that Ann.lu was the fighting site... Here is only > about 30 comments (and most of them are quite OK) while on Amiga.org there > are over 130 comments and a lot's of then ate really low-class insults and > flames. I agree. I just read through the thread over at amiga.org and I reached page 7 but then I stopped. It was awful; only an incredibly low level of meaningless personal insults. But for once, most comments here on ann are OK (in the sence of grown up, mature, debating). Genesi needs You! : Comment 78 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by greenboy on 19-Jan-2003 13:58 GMT In reply to Comment 65 (alan buxey): >...following on , by desperately asking for official 3rd-party support position in a public forum, looks more like Phoenix have either lost out, been too slow...or just missed the boat in general. Desperately? Hah! That ship sailed when we made the mistake of partnering with Amiga Inc when we already had QNX working well with us. All to accomodate the community, perhaps see some cross development, and give moral support that was totally one-sided. It ultimately sapped momentum, drained resources (people!) and QNX became more reserved as they saw more and more what the Amiga community effort cost. When the potential gains elsewhere began to be realized they were smart to reestablish priorities that had already served them well, and to spend much more on the development tool chain. So, Genesi is a good profile to build back up with, and to go beyond the dead zone. I'm not so proud I can't admit that mistakes have been made. But there have been some really good things that the stalwart types who have stuck through it all in Phoenix have achieved, and lots of it will really work well in concert with Genesi goals. So, onward... : } >btw, QNX was never the right path. that OS is so backwater and fundamentally aimed at the serious serious market. Actually QNX is an incredible company and I can't help but think that if circumstances had been slightly different we wouldn't be talking these things today. But as the desktop effort with main partners dying or changing directions began to drain their resolve and confidence in the vision, they decided to let it take care of itself. It didn't help that antipathies existed that they had not seen the like of before. So, I see a company that has potential on the desktop at least for an immediate community and maybe much more - AND potential in the space I became familiar with when working with QNX. I like the people, feel that commonality of Amiga background and mindset, and I see the hard work and the results are already looking pretty good. Desperate? Hmmm. I've had a goal to make it easier for developers from an Amiga past to get a better deal than what they've had during all these desperate years, and again I see a better chance to help make this happen. Maybe I can eventually make a living here again too. Same for the other core people in Phoenix. Already some of them are enjoying the change. I'm hoping that with Genesi we can build a better way to do developer support and a better way to treat developers, a better way to foster them and get them into business if that is what they desire, and I'm willing to put maybe a few more years into it. Hopefully learning from past mistakes. I see no reason to be ashamed of that, and the people in Phoenix have no reason to be ashamed either (I know some of you probably persisted in thinking Phoenix was a company - but it was actually a GROUP of companies and individuals with some common goals). Anyway, in spite of all the traps some of them got an awful lot of work done and learned a hella lot too. Now they are more ready than ever to make a difference. Genesi needs You! : Comment 79 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Christian Kemp on 19-Jan-2003 14:21 GMT In reply to Comment 66 (AdmV): I suspect if everything works as planned, it will just be the other way around: larger volumes ensuring lower prices. As such, the Amiga market can only benefit from such deals. Genesi needs You! : Comment 80 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Christian Kemp on 19-Jan-2003 14:24 GMT In reply to Comment 77 (takemehomegrandma): I'm wishing everybody would keep it up. It makes for far better reading. (Also, I noticed the AmigaOS4 threat is still active, with quite a few contributions from Olaf Barthel and others. That is also refreshing to see.) Genesi needs You! : Comment 81 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by DruggedBunny on 19-Jan-2003 14:38 GMT > If the x86 is cheaper, then please tell us why > there's never been a game console using it. Heat issues? Most consoles don't use the fastest processor possible, but one that works out very cheap indeed (ie. they wouldn't use the fastest x86 in a console). There are all sorts of reasons why games consoles use non-x86 processors. > It's also more cumbersome to program for > (going by what all programmers I know say), Almost nobody programs in x86 assembly these days. Even those amazing games consoles using 'slow' PowerPC/MIPS/whatever CPUs are programmed in C/C++ for the most part. Even the Gameboy Advance, for God's sake! Good compilers make this irrelevant. > and when used in its usual PC environment > it's surrounded by lots of technologies about > as old as many of the ANN posters. Um, Geforce4 as compared to your Amiga's AGA or PicassoIV? Heh heh. Creative Audigy as opposed to your Paula chip? Please... get a grip! Even Dave Haynie will tell you that the modern day PC kicks the ass of any Amiga out there in regards to performance and efficiency -- PCs are almost completely free of the famous 'legacy issues' these days. How long is the A3000 going to be considered 'cutting edge technology' on the planet you're from? Genesi needs You! : Comment 82 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Not a name follower on 19-Jan-2003 14:50 GMT These name followers are pathetic, people did not attack MorphOS in the 90`s, Get a grip, Worshiping a product by its name is just stupid. Genesi needs You! : Comment 83 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Lando on 19-Jan-2003 15:09 GMT In reply to Comment 72 (takemehomegrandma): >It sure suits my needs (file servers for bulk storage) but don't >imagine yourself watching software decoded DVD's on them! I have two Epia boards too - the first one I got, the Epia C3-800, has a 800Mhz CPU and I was very disappointed with the DVD playback under WinDVD and PowerDVD - skipping frames all over the place. Now it is used as an "emulator" box and has mame, zsnes, genesyst and so on installed. But the new Epia-M has hardware DVD decoding built in, and DVD playback is perfect, rivalling my Toshiba standalone player. It has a 933mhz CPU and its also got 266mhz fsb speed as opposed to the 133mhz of the 1st generation Epia (takes DDR RAM) and a firewire port. A vast improvement! I havent tried to play many new games on it but Quake3 runs fine in 1024x768 and Ghost recon is okay too. The best thing about the Epia boards is the size - 17cm square means you can put it in a tiny case that won't look out of place sitting under your TV next to your VCR (on the mini-itx.com website people have put them inside PS1 cases, Sega Saturn cases, even cases made from lunchboxes or lego!). The hardware DVD playback and the 5.1 sound output makes the Epia-M a very nice Home theatre PC and an alternative to a standalone DVD player with the added benefits of a fully functioning PC. Genesi needs You! : Comment 84 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 15:21 GMT In reply to Comment 68 (alan buxey): >...i dont understand how you can say the Pegasos is too expensive? > >its only around 500 EURO's . One can get nearly two complete new computers for that price, both running at higher clock speeds. A competitive price for a Pegasos board with entry-level CPU would be 100-125 EUR/US$ and a reasonable price, given their low volume, 200 US$. Genesi needs You! : Comment 85 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 15:35 GMT In reply to Comment 72 (takemehomegrandma): > but don't imagine yourself watching software decoded DVD's Watching a DVD with the EPIA800 is possible, I've done that and it looked good. You will have to disable some options though, it't can't run a software decoder at best settings (as a last resort, a sigma designs mpeg card can be added, whnich will take all load of the CPU). Normally, I use it for DIVx playback, which works perfectly. Again, you have to disable some advanved options. All that said, you are a bit unfair by mentioning the EPIA800. It's an older board. The itx board of choice for multimedia is the EPIA-M. The good side of the EPIA800 is that, being an older board, you can now get one below 99 EUR. Don't forget, this is an all-in-one board with cpu, heatsink, video (including SVHS-out), ethernet, usb, digital audio etc. You can get five of those instead of one pegasos and build a linux cluster :-) m doing it all the time. As a last resort, if you have to run the player at est setting, you can always plug in a ridicuously cheap Genesi needs You! : Comment 86 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Marcus Sundman on 19-Jan-2003 15:52 GMT In reply to Comment 68 (alan buxey): > ...i dont understand how you can say the Pegasos is too expensive? > > its only around 500 EURO's . which, for the custom mini-ATX format > that it is, with CPU upgrade board which allows DUAL-CPU usage > (check out how much more you pay for DUAL-CPU in x86 world... Dual AMD boards are about 250-350 euro around here, so you could have almost two such boards for 500 euro. Genesi needs You! : Comment 87 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Iggy Drougge on 19-Jan-2003 16:07 GMT In reply to Comment 81 (DruggedBunny): Most issues relevant to a game console are also relevant when it comes to set-top boxes. Heat issues, custom hardware, integration and development. And STBs have, just like game consoles, not opted for the fastest CPU around (or else they're just shoddily programmed, considering their reaction times and capabilities). The funny thing about your PC is that it most probably still has got an ISA bus and a BIOS somewhere. If PCs didn't have the industry momentum they had, all these issues would be issues of real concern, and perhaps even worked away by now, just like we've been forced to do on the Amiga. After all, even the most modern of PCs are quite happy to run with a CGA card, and even the most modern GeForce card supports 1987-issue VGA modes. The SoundBlaster still has got AdLib compatibility. If the Amiga were made in millions each year, we'd probably have cheap, integrated Taiwanese chips for AGA and Paula compatibility. Compared to the PC, a motherboard such as the Pegasos is a very clean, modern design (though not modern in all respects). Genesi needs You! : Comment 88 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Jan-2003 16:08 GMT In reply to Comment 31 (Darrin): "Nameless Suit – "Look, my boys have discovered that 95% of the world’s population think that a Quark is a treacherous Ferengi bar-tender that makes black-market smuggling deals. Now my company doesn’t want anything to do with theses Ferengi people, whoever they are." " ROTLF :) Star trekkin, across the universe ... :) Genesi needs You! : Comment 89 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 19-Jan-2003 16:12 GMT In reply to Comment 73 (Iggy Drougge): " If the x86 is cheaper, then please tell us why there's never been a game console using it." Oh Iggy, Iggy, Iggy, your trolling really is getting worse. First you describe PC users as "the enemy" (I note you still haven't explained how those who use PCs *AND* Amigas fit into your blinkered view of things). And now you come out with this crap? Hey, Iggy, if it's not too much trouble for you, point your web browser to http://www.xbox.com and THEN tell us there are no games consoles based on the x86. Genesi needs You! : Comment 90 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 16:36 GMT In reply to Comment 87 (Iggy Drougge): > Compared to the PC, a motherboard such as the Pegasos is a very clean, modern design Gosh, what is "the PC" ? Last time I looked, there were entry level boards (such as the Pegasos) and cutting-edge racers with every new shiny technology geeks love. The Pegasos is no such thing. Also, please re-examine your naive attitude that maintaining compatibility, by leaving an ISA path and other corpses somewhere in the chipset, is a bad thing by definition. Genesi needs You! : Comment 91 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 19-Jan-2003 16:43 GMT I agree that, for those of us who would want to see MorphOS/Pegasos as a platform for serious general-purpose personal computing, it is somewhat problematic if Genesi enters an STB deal with huge volumes. There is an obvious risk that Genesi will, in the end, put their efforts where they can get something for it, and that the "regular computer" aspect will get second priority. However, I think a reality check is in place. I don't see it as realistic that Genesi could aim mainly at personal computing today. In this light, I think the STB niche is certainly not without advantages. In fact, this puts priority in several areas which will benefit the personal computing aspect too; things like web browsers, media players etc which are lacking on the Amiga today will have to be improved upon. So, while I definitely hope that Genesi will also find different niches with different needs to cater for, I'm not worried about STB's. If it becomes STB's only, then it's a problem. But as part of the strategy, STB's fit in nicely, adding economy of scale as well as necessary technology which will benefit MorphOS/Pegasos as a general solution. Genesi needs You! : Comment 92 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Don Cox on 19-Jan-2003 17:22 GMT In reply to Comment 91 (Johan Rönnblom): "I agree that, for those of us who would want to see MorphOS/Pegasos as a platform for serious general-purpose personal computing, it is somewhat problematic if Genesi enters an STB deal with huge volumes. There is an obvious risk that Genesi will, in the end, put their efforts where they can get something for it, and that the "regular computer" aspect will get second priority. " It is always useful to have a desktop machine for development, even if 99% of sales are in other formats. If the desktop machine is basically no more than a custom motherboard with otherwise standard hardware, the cost isn't very great. It can also act as a prestige product to enhance the company's image. This is similar to the top end model or ultra long lenses produced by camera companies - the sales are tiny, but the product demonstrates the company's technical superiority. Genesi needs You! : Comment 93 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Iggy Drougge on 19-Jan-2003 17:43 GMT In reply to Comment 89 (Keith Blakemore-Noble): Shut up, Keith. I don't like being accused of trolling. Especially on ANN. The XBox is the only x86 console, made by a PC house for easy porting of PC games. What would you expect from Microsoft? Genesi needs You! : Comment 94 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Iggy Drougge on 19-Jan-2003 17:47 GMT In reply to Comment 90 (Anonymous): The PC is something compatible with an IBM PC. Need we really go through a debate about the PC definition? You were the one who brought up the fresh, modern PCs. Compared to the Pegasos, they aren't. Genesi needs You! : Comment 95 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jan-2003 18:00 GMT In reply to Comment 89 (Keith Blakemore-Noble): > Hey, Iggy, if it's not too much trouble for you, point your web browser to > http://www.xbox.com and THEN tell us there are no games consoles based on the > x86. Before jumping to his neck like that, pay attention to one thing: there's only one x86 "console" availabe to date, the rest is based on other architectures: there must be some reasons behind that, don't you think? Genesi needs You! : Comment 96 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Bladerunner on 19-Jan-2003 18:05 GMT In reply to Comment 74 (Sam Smith): Not to forget the FM Towns Marty first with 386, than 486 CPU ;-) Genesi needs You! : Comment 97 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 18:08 GMT In reply to Comment 93 (Iggy Drougge): > The XBox is the only x86 console How would you know, if you didn't even know that there was an x86 console at all five minutes ago ? I'm pretty sure that someone can dig up some obscure x86 console in Japan. Anyway, WHAT is the point you are trying to make ? That the x86 is too slow for consoles or too fast or too expensive or too cheap ? The x86 cpu is one of many. There is no fundamental reason to avoid it, there is no fundamental reason to prefer it. It just happens that one console uses this CPU and the next console that CPU. > The PC is something compatible with an IBM PC. Need we really go through a debate about the PC definition? Yes, maybe you schould educate yourself a bit before you expose us to your wisdoms. There are a lot of different mainboard designs and chipsets, ranging from slow to fast, from old to modern. Talking about "the PC mainboard" and comparing it to "the Pegasos" is utter nonsense. Btw, isn't the MAI chipset suitable for x86 CPUs, too ? Maybe there even is an ISA path buried in it somewhere. Gosh, wouldn't that be truly horrible ? Not. Genesi needs You! : Comment 98 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by bbrv on 19-Jan-2003 18:09 GMT This is a really good thread. There is plenty to read and think about here. We appreciate it. Just a few quick thoughts... The STB we are discussing is quite different than what has been discussed or attempted historically. The basic version does not even have an uplink. It is very inexpensive and it is basic in form and function (but as much for less, remember: “it is not how little it costs, it is how much you get”). Interactivity comes through smart cards (please think about that before you respond). This is a satellite television reciever with some memory. The smart card is used to enable elements of the signal. Authorization levels depend on subscription or payment per event/movie (pre-paid or pay-as-you-go). Of course, a more advanced version could be a base station for the eclipsis. Then there is the Psylent (formally Pega-shush)...a 24/7 ISP bundled home server that does not have anything to do with the STB. BUT, everything begins and advances WITH the Pegasos running MorphOS. We can profit from the core technology by adapting it to various "configurations" which will allow us to build the Company and the Developer base. These are complex topics and not thoroughly covered here, but the discussion on this thread and the discussions we hope to inspire/provoke in the future all lead to a broader understanding of what we are ultimately trying to accomplish. More tomorrow, and glad to be home! Raquel and Bill Genesi needs You! : Comment 99 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Bladerunner on 19-Jan-2003 18:11 GMT In reply to Comment 93 (Iggy Drougge): As i said before, it is not the only one... do a google on fm towns marty :-) (and before someone ask, there is one german site which says it has a 68030... thats wrong..) Genesi needs You! : Comment 100 of 150 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 19-Jan-2003 18:26 GMT In reply to Comment 98 (bbrv): > It (STB) is very inexpensive and it is basic in form and function Care to give a hint it that deal and design will have a positive effect on the Pegasos price any time soon ? Anonymous, there are 150 items in your selection (but only 100 shown due to limitation) [1 - 50] [51 - 100] [101 - 150]

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