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[Web] End of GRex petitionANN.lu
Posted on 25-Jan-2003 16:21 GMT by Alkemyst (Edited on 2003-01-26 15:05:22 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)25 comments
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http://www.trimaweb.de/petition/ M. Lück wrote: "Today is the end of the GRex-petition. Until today 296 users have subscribed. TriMa and me want to thank you for your support. Unfortunately this petition has failed. I want to explain in the following lines why it is so.

Two weeks after the start of the petition I have sent the first list with all signatures (without email addresses) to DCE per email. I got an answer of DCE at once. DCE wrote that they would be glad about a support of OS4 and that they are interested in the current discussion.

We got the information of Steffen Häuser that the cybpci.library written by Ralph 'Laire' Schmidt will not work in the 68k emulation because of the 68k MMU setup. So the petition still became more important because presently GRex users have no chance of getting AmigaOS 4.0 started. We got all information per email which Hyperion needs to support the GRex. Four addresses are needed:

the base of GRex I/O address
the interrupt acknowledge address
the base address of config space mappings
the PCI-config and PCI-data address.

No circuit diagramm, hardware or software documents are needed. These information I sent DCE per email. I have not got any response until today. Then we got the information that bplan has the hardware rights. This means DCE has only a licence for the GRex. If this is true or not we do not know. One week ago I contacted Mr. Carda per email for getting clearness. But I also have not got any response until now. That is a pity.

Now we hope that we can attract attention by posting this article. Thank you very much again to all participants... The attempt of moving something forward means so much to us - also if it may fail."
End of GRex petition : Comment 1 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by José on 25-Jan-2003 15:48 GMT
They just continue to do what they did in the PowerUP/Warp days...
End of GRex petition : Comment 2 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 25-Jan-2003 16:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (José):
Doing busines in a competetive envireonment?
End of GRex petition : Comment 3 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Jan-2003 16:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (takemehomegrandma):
Not suprised that you would see it like that.
End of GRex petition : Comment 4 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Darth X on 25-Jan-2003 17:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
Petitions are interesting but its very rare that something positive comes out of a petition. Rather, a well thought out business plan/proposal and some $$$ can go a long way towards your ideas becoming a reality.
End of GRex petition : Comment 5 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 25-Jan-2003 17:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Darth X):
I dont think cash or a business plan would of helped in this case.
End of GRex petition : Comment 6 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by bbk on 25-Jan-2003 19:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (takemehomegrandma):
"Doing busines in a competetive envireonment?"

Don't make me laugh! , For those not licking arse it’s pretty easy to see that they acted like spoilt brats at Phase5 and are continuing to act this way at BPlan. Mix their history, their relationship with DCE (Who have practically stole peoples boards and severely wasted their time) and their new found front man Bill Buck and that should put you off sending any cash that way or wasting time listening to their endless and pointless "announcements".
End of GRex petition : Comment 7 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 25-Jan-2003 21:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (bbk):
@bbk

Why don't you (and any assistance you can muster) post here what you think should be done, point by point. Then, everyone else reading this can post their agreement or disagreement. We actually find this site and now this thread VERY important. Please do not resort to insult, but rather very accurately and truthfully post your opinions and FACTS here. Thank you.

You will have our full consideration and attention.

Please be earnest.

Best regards,

Raquel Velasco and Bill Buck
End of GRex petition : Comment 8 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Jan-2003 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (bbrv):
What to do ?
Do the same thing I would ask for the Pegasos:

Put all needed HW-docs in a public place and wait.

If the HW still isn't in OS4, they will have one excuse less.
End of GRex petition : Comment 9 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by bbk on 25-Jan-2003 21:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (bbrv):
How about you just pull your head outta your arse.
End of GRex petition : Comment 10 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 25-Jan-2003 21:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (bbk):
@bbk Is that you? Are you are coward? Do you have the courage to tell us who you are and engage in a meaningful conversation? Can you say something intelligent? Do you know anything about computers? Operating systems? Amigas? The Pegasos?

We need people here that have something to say and the "guts" to say it.

No whimps! No Cowards! No BS! No FUD!

:-)

Clean up this site. More people are coming soon!

Just Bill
End of GRex petition : Comment 11 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by bbk on 25-Jan-2003 22:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (bbrv):
"No whimps! No Cowards! No BS! No FUD!"

Shouldn't you be leaving then ?
End of GRex petition : Comment 12 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2003 22:47 GMT
Hello everybody,

Mr. Alkemyst said:

>We got all information per email which Hyperion needs to support the GRex.
>Four addresses are needed: the base of GRex I/O address the interrupt
>acknowledge address the base address of config space mappings the PCI-config
>and PCI-data address. No circuit diagramm, hardware or software documents are
>needed.

I know that Amiga is a computer which allocates memory dynamically, but at least can't you hack these infos from an Amiga with the GRex connected in?

Once upon a time there were a lot's of progs to monitoring addresses...

Bye,

Raffaele
End of GRex petition : Comment 13 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Christoph Gutjahr on 25-Jan-2003 22:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (bbrv):
@bbrv:

>> We need people here that have something to say
>> and the "guts" to say it.

Well the petition owner had something to say, would you be so kind and answer the two claims he made?

1. Is the GRexx a Bplan design and DCE only have a license?
2. Hyperion do not have the neccessary documentation, is this true? If yes, why?
End of GRex petition : Comment 14 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2003 22:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Raffaele):
Whoops! I apologize, Alkemyst was quoting a certain "Luck".

Sorry ancient wizard of chemistry...

Bye,

Raffaele
End of GRex petition : Comment 15 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 25-Jan-2003 22:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Raffaele):
:)
End of GRex petition : Comment 16 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 25-Jan-2003 23:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (bbrv):
@ BBRV

"Why don't you (and any assistance you can muster) post here what you think should be done, point by point. Then, everyone else reading this can post their agreement or disagreement. We actually find this site and now this thread VERY important. Please do not resort to insult, but rather very accurately and truthfully post your opinions and FACTS here. Thank you."

Well I saw you got a very thoughtfull answer from "bbk". Since he had such a good argumentation I thought I would join him :0)

Ok, he mentions P5.. they are history and there's no real reason to blame them for anything unless you where in the unfortunate situation that you pre-payed them or had something in for repair or somthing like that.

Your business partner DCE is another matter, they are still an active company that I will never trust* or buy anything from**. BBK said somthing like they had stolen peoples hardware and time, and is he right or what!

Countless people (we are talking MANY people over the years!) have told about how DCE have accepted to repair their hardware (some even warranty repairs), then they have waited years to get their hardware back (working or not).

I have had contact with DCE several times myself, they are all very nice and polite when you call them but never answers your (polite) email and never does what they promise you on the phone.

Not returning peoples hardware when the owners asks for it, is actually the same as stealing it, if you ask me.

The business practice of your parter is so poor that I fail to see how some people can still be supporting them by buying their hardware***?

"Please be earnest."

I am... I even tried to write my take on dce in a friendly way :-)

*every time I have called DCE, they have wasted my time promising to do stuff they never intended to do.
** You should clarify your connection with DCE as I am quite sure I am not the only person that don't want to give them a single euro.
*** Maybe Germans have had better service at DCE and therefore still buy stuff from them. It's mainly people living far away that have had the biggest troubles with dce.

(Not here to assist BBK, his lack of arguments and last post speaks for it self.)
End of GRex petition : Comment 17 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Jan-2003 23:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (bbrv):
>We need people here that have something to say and the "guts" to say it.

>No whimps! No Cowards! No BS! No FUD!


could you stop and think for a moment before you open your mouth ?

maybe BBK once owned p5/dce hardware and sent it to dce for repair ?

with the skyhigh p5/dce hardware prices and then loose the hardware at DCE
no wonder he's so upset....think about that.

you want people with something to say and the "guts" to say it, and when someone
do, you 'stamp' them as whimps,cowards,bullshit and fud ?
End of GRex petition : Comment 18 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 25-Jan-2003 23:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (bbrv):
@ BBRV

Just read your answer to my post on Amiga.org. Thanks for your generous offer, I would have said yes if I have had the time (which I haven't got atm.).

Please look at post #13 I would also like to see these questions answered
BTW.(and totally off thread) when is the Psylent going to be released?
End of GRex petition : Comment 19 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 26-Jan-2003 11:44 GMT
Ok, clearly this is a difficult issue. Lets use this thread to pick it apart and attempt to come to some conclusion…

Christoph Gutjahr has ask these basic questions:

1. Is the GRexx a Bplan design and DCE only have a license?
2. Hyperion do not have the necessary documentation, is this true? If yes, why?

The G-Rex (1200, 4000D and 4000T) was a Phase5 product that saw success in the final period of Phase 5. Phase5 bankrupted early in 2000. With this all the IP passed into the hands of the bankruptcy trustee. That is unfortunately where the story ends. DCE did have a license to make the product, but bplan has no legal basis to continue to produce or develop this product. Contrary to the common misconception even though some of the same players are involved, Phase5 and bplan are NOT the same company.

Does Hyperion have the documentation? Ask them. Certainly, bplan is not responsible to provide this documentation (and legally cannot).

Troels Ersking has thankfully been very specific in his questions:

"Ok, he mentions P5.. they are history and there's no real reason to blame them for anything unless you where in the unfortunate situation that you pre-payed them or had something in for repair or somthing like that."

Well, we have actually posted a request a number of times asking people to send us an email accounting for their losses. From the two or three times we did this we have had two responses. In one case, the individual understood the situation and did not expect anything and in the other he could find no documentation. We offered them both discounts on the Betatester board. One of them took us up on the offer.

"Your business partner DCE is another matter…"

We were in Oberhausen for three days in December just before the Aachen show. We had the time to speak with Thomas Dillert about the past in the presence of Thomas and Gerald. We had also visited DCE in December 2000 and knew Thomas from our VisCorp days, so it is fair to say that we know him. Of course, the Pegasos is produced at DCE.

DCE went through a difficult period and nearly bankrupted themselves in 2001 and it seems to us that DCE still gets significant blame for the demise of Phase5 and the inevitable after-effects, for which frankly DCE had no responsibility. With the end of Phase5 came the end of the warranty period. Plus, the expertise to repair the items in question is not free. If Thomas repaired anything he did so at his own cost.

*every time I have called DCE, they have wasted my time promising to do stuff they never intended to do.

DCE should not do that.

** You should clarify your connection with DCE as I am quite sure I am not the only person that don't want to give them a single euro.

We use the DCE facility to produce the Pegasos. Thomas Dillert supports and works with us. Our component inventory is stored there. We pay them for the work they do on our behalf. If somebody buys a Pegasos they send their money to Genesi, not DCE.

*** Maybe Germans have had better service at DCE and therefore still buy stuff from them. It's mainly people living far away that have had the biggest troubles with dce.

Well, we cannot speak about what DCE has done in their past more than we have, but we have confidence in Thomas. He has done good work for us. We are not sure people understand what happened in the Phase5 bankruptcy and that DCE has no responsibility for this or for maintaining any product production or support facilities.

A word about today…

1. Genesi (bplan and Thendic-France) have replaced every Betatester Pegasos that has been presented to us. We began to make the exchanges in Aachen and have continued to do so. That exchange in itself represents over 30000 Euros of swapped-out boards. It would be hard for anyone to say that we have not stood behind our product, whether DCE was involved or not. Keep in mind that an exchanged board is one less to sell and that the work required to add the April UNDER the Mai chip is not a simple task.

2. @Mr. Anonymous It would have been useful information to know whom “bbk” was and that he might have sent something to DCE. We have not mastered the clairvoyance to be able to make those determinations based on what we can read. Further, if that is true, he and others made these purchases and undoubtedly use the products they received. As mentioned already, DCE is not responsible for the demise of Phase5, nor is DCE required to carry forward support for the products of a bankrupt company. Finally, we did not "stamp" on anyone, rather “bbk” took this thread in a bad direction first with his mindless posts and second, with personally insulting statements. You can see we have no problem answering reasonable questions politely.

About the Psylent…we are still writing the Marketing Requirements Document. Have any suggestions beyond what is on the website (http://thendipo.alias.domicile.fr/us/psylent.htm)? We are all ears!

We can continue this discussion here and we will do our best to answer all questions.

Sincerely,

Raquel and Bill
End of GRex petition : Comment 20 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 27-Jan-2003 01:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (bbrv):
No Raquel and Bill, the G-Rex is a DCE product. Look it up if you don't believe me. Phase5 never had anything to do with the G-Rex as it didn't even exist back then. I suggest you try getting to know a bit more about your partner before making them your partner.
End of GRex petition : Comment 21 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 27-Jan-2003 02:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (samface):
Even if the G-REX is a DCE product it was built from a development PCI bridge from Phase5. So if DCE acquired the right to change it a bit, put it to production and sell it as a G-REX it may be possible that they did not get the right to share the Phase5 IP.
End of GRex petition : Comment 22 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 27-Jan-2003 15:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Christophe Decanini):
How convinient.
End of GRex petition : Comment 23 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Jan-2003 04:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (bbrv):
>The G-Rex (1200, 4000D and 4000T) was a Phase5 product that saw success in the final period of Phase 5.

Never heard of that. I think the GREX 4000D started selling in the end of 2001 and the tower model...well...did it sell at all?
Phase5 had a PCI Testboard as seen on http://www.vgr.com/g-rex/hardware.shtml

>Thomas Dillert

It´s Dellert.

>With the end of Phase5 came the end of the warranty period.

I am sure no one questions that.

>Plus, the expertise to repair the items in question is not free.
>If Thomas repaired anything he did so at his own cost.

Huh? Free repairs are a requirement inside the warranty period - outside no one
expects his equipment to be repaired free of charge but it must happen in a
reasonable timeframe and it cannot be that people don´t know what becomes of their hardware because contact requests simply fail. I think that was the whole problem.
End of GRex petition : Comment 24 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Jan-2003 04:40 GMT
P.S. When making a comment and the "Comment added" page with "Your comment has been added. You can see all comments in flat or threaded mode or go back to the main index (default layout)." appears, a mous click on "flat" does NOT give a flat view of the comments. This error appeared for a long time now and I wonder why it hasn´t been fixed yet. Mr Kemp, would you be so kind...?
End of GRex petition : Comment 25 of 25ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jan-2003 13:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (samface):
No Raquel and Bill, the G-Rex is a DCE product. Look it up if you don't believe me. Phase5 never had anything to do with the G-Rex as it didn't even exist back then. I suggest you try getting to know a bit more about your partner before making them your partner.
--

Right... Do you know what the G-Rex originally was? A Phase5 Permedia2 PCI card
for Macs. They used that card to develop the drivers for the Amiga in conjuction
with a PCI bridge. DCE had got a licence to produce that card. What they did is
modifying it a bit so that they can add more slots, add parity logic to the
high end models. They also connected DMA Req and Ack signals to all slots (2 for
the 1200 version) cause the original bridge only had 1 slot (That's why the first G-Rex 1200 version only had 1 DMA-able slot).
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