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[News] BBRV on GRex, DCEANN.lu
Posted on 26-Jan-2003 13:24 GMT by msgr107 comments
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Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco (Genesi) have posted a clarifying comment on issues concerning the GRex petition and Genesi's relationship with DCE. All the IP governing the GRex passed to the bankruptcy trustee after phase5's bankruptcy. DCE or bplan do not own this IP and cannot share it with for example Hyperion. It is also emphasised that bplan (Genesi) employing people who previously worked for the now non-existent phase5 does *not* make them the same company.

Does Hyperion have the documentation? Ask them. Certainly, bplan is not responsible to provide this documentation (and legally cannot).

There are also explanations regarding some people's problems with hardware repairs at DCE. Again, Genesi/bplan != DCE != phase5. Allegedly, only two people have responded to Genesi's informal requests to get in touch regarding claimed loss of phase5 hardware at DCE's facilities.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 1 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Christoph Gutjahr on 26-Jan-2003 12:54 GMT
@bbrv

>> All the IP governing the GRex passed to the bankruptcy trustee
>> after phase5's bankruptcy. DCE or bplan do not own this IP and
>> cannot share it with for example Hyperion.

Well, same goes for the CyberstormPPC, right? Yet Thendic were able to supply Hyperion with the neccessary documentation.

Given the fact that Ralph Schmidt and Frank Mariak are doing the complete software support for the GRex, they certainly have the neccessary documentation for the GRex too...

I'm just wondering: If you are willing to cooperate (as you are, according to various public statements), why don't you tell your own employees to send a short e-mail containing those four numbers to Hyperion?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 2 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 26-Jan-2003 13:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Christoph Gutjahr):
>If you are willing to cooperate (as you are, according to various public >statements), why don't you tell your own employees to send a short e-mail >containing those four numbers to Hyperion?

Because they are not *allowed* to do so. Quite simple isn't it?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 3 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 26-Jan-2003 13:35 GMT
And noone sees the irony of Hyperion making this noise about the 4 addresses. Back then, when WarpUP was pressed into the market they were perferctly able to reengineer the complete PowerUP-Kernel to obtain all hardware addresses they needed to produce their WarpUP-Kernel. It was Stephane Häuser himself who did this job (iirc some usenet posts of him from that time). So, why aren't they able now to reengineer all the stuff they need?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 4 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 26-Jan-2003 13:47 GMT
"only two people have responded to Genesi's informal requests to get in touch regarding claimed loss of phase5 hardware at DCE's facilities."

Why should people contact Genesi because of problems with DCE? It doesn't make any sense, unless you where just doing the offer to get some cheap publicity.

But anyway, you said yourself that DCE != genesi.
DCE should just get their act togheter and return peoples hardware, answer peoples emails and stop lying when people call them to ask whats happening with their hardware.

Could you please provide a link to that informal request you said you made?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 5 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 26-Jan-2003 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Troels Ersking):
>Why should people contact Genesi because of problems with DCE?

You don't appreciate their help?

>Could you please provide a link to that informal request you said you made?

Some comments from ann.lu:

"[News] Next Pegasos production sold out : Comment 158 of 280 Link
Posted by Bill (212.198.0.93) on 09-Jun-2002 05:03

Just out of curiosity for all you folks that are carefully reading this -- how
many people out there can document and forward it to us at the email address
above either 1) a receipt for money lost or other proof of a paid order to
Phase 5 when Phase 5 went bankrupt, or, 2) proof of money or a damaged board
sent to DCE for repairs that was never returned, etc. We would really like to
understand all the FUD on this. Our email address is good and our interest is
genuine. By document, we would like to see an airbill, a cancelled check, an
email exchange or just about anything that shows proof of loss. Any help here
interests us. Thanks in advance for digging through your old records!"

"[News] Next Pegasos production sold out : Comment 183 of 280 Link
Posted by Raquel and Bill (212.198.0.93) on 09-Jun-2002 13:50

2. Please continue to send us any information regarding documented losses
related to the demise of Phase 5 or any proof demonstrating deficiencies with
DCE services related to Phase 5 products. We are conducting our own research.
We are interested to see if the problems are as great as they are claimed to
be. So far, we have *one* response directly and *one* online."

"[News] Thendic France comment on OS4.0 : Comment 38 of 165 Link
Posted by Raquel and Bill (213.117.178.50) on 18-Aug-2002 17:39

If anyone has proof that DCE has improperly accepted or not-returned money or
boards for warranty or for whatever other reason because there was a problem
with the manufacturing of the board (and not because it was intentionally over
clocked, etc.), Thendic-France will rebate the full amount against a Pegasos
computer. We have confidence in DCE and we have confidence in the ability of
bplan to organize the production and work with DCE in the future."
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 6 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 26-Jan-2003 13:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Troels Ersking):
>Could you please provide a link to that informal request you said you made?

I saw that informal request on ANN when it was made months ago, so it was indeed made. It was, I believe, in response to some people making the link between DCE and Genesi (or Thendic/bplan back then) - and asking if Pegasos warranty replacements could be trusted on because of this.

>Why should people contact Genesi because of problems with DCE? It doesn't make
>any sense, unless you where just doing the offer to get some cheap publicity.

Genesi responded because it was pressed to do so in public. I see no reason to question them for it. I don't claim to know their intentions, but they do seem to actively participate in making these discussions fruitful to the extent they can. For me that is welcome.

Today was the first I'd heard of them giving discounts to people based on this. Certainly that has a flavour of marketing to it, but it is also a nice gesture. I have no problem with nice-gesture assited marketing.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 7 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 26-Jan-2003 14:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Troels Ersking):
>DCE should just get their act togheter and return peoples hardware, answer
>peoples emails and stop lying when people call them to ask whats happening
>with their hardware.

Troels, I don't think anyone here, myself or any of the more famous players, disagrees with you on that one.

For many of us, this is just a hobby and we conduct ourselves accordingly. For Genesi, DCE seems to be a valuable partner - can't really blame them for wanting to really know what is going on (like asking people to document it) before acting in any way on that information.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 8 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Christoph Gutjahr on 26-Jan-2003 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (David Scheibler):
@David Scheibler:

Strange, I thought I was asking bbrv...

>> Because they are not *allowed* to do so. Quite simple
>> isn't it?

No, it isn't that simple. Why were they allowed to supply the documentation for the CyberstormPPC and are not allowed to do the same with the GRex documentation?

Who's the owner of the IP?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 9 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 26-Jan-2003 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Janne Sirén):
"I saw that informal request on ANN when it was made months ago, so it was indeed made. It was, I believe, in response to some people making the link between DCE and Genesi (or Thendic/bplan back then) - and asking if Pegasos warranty replacements could be trusted on because of this."

I was well aware that the request was made, just couldn't remember the exact content of it.

Never saw the 2 first posts only the one with the "nice gesture".. An offer I didn't like.
Might just be me, but I don't think its fair to try and gain customours that way. If people wanted a Pegasos they could just buy one, if they wanbted their boards back they could just..?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 10 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 26-Jan-2003 14:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Troels Ersking):
>Never saw the 2 first posts only the one with the "nice gesture".. An offer I
>didn't like.
>Might just be me, but I don't think its fair to try and gain customours that
>way. If people wanted a Pegasos they could just buy one, if they wanbted
>their boards back they could just..?

They should get their boards back. DCE should honour its commitments. I don't know what they have done exactly (or not done), since I myself am not a customer of theirs, but I have heard enough to believe they have made some serious mistakes in this regard.

However, that should not, in my opinion, be a reason for people to question Genesi - and yet they have. Considering this, I find it reasonable that Genesi have taken it upon themselves to take some action in this regard - trying to help people (forwarding documentation and requests to DCE through their channels as I understood the original offer) and also offer discounts on their own products as an added gesture of good will / marketing.

If you want to demonize this, feel free. I don't.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 11 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by ExiE on 26-Jan-2003 15:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Christoph Gutjahr):
Hello Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco, can you please explain to us how Genesi/bplan can support GREX in CGX and MorphOS. Is it so easy to get the required information from phase5's bankruptcy trustee OR you "get it somewhere else..."It looks like 1) you broke the IP and just used the information Ralph Schmidt and Frank Mariak have from the phase5 days or 2) there must be the way how to get the information legally
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 12 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 26-Jan-2003 15:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Christoph Gutjahr):
>Strange, I thought I was asking bbrv...

If you don't want answers from somebody else than you should better not write
in public forums, but ask by email.

>Why were they allowed to supply the documentation for the CyberstormPPC and
>are not allowed to do the same with the GRex documentation?

Maybe because
(1) the documentation of CybPPC had been bought completely by DCE or
(2) already this providing of documentation was legally questionable.

Therefore it is better to not provide any further documentaion as this might
end in a legally questionable OS4 then. I doubt that Hyperion wants this. And
it would not be wise for Genesi in the current situation to make such a maybe
legally questionable offer to Hyperion as I'm sure you can understand.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 13 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 26-Jan-2003 15:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (ExiE):
>1) you broke the IP and just used the information Ralph Schmidt and Frank
>Mariak have from the phase5 days

No, I assume they can of course *use* those addresses (as every SW developer
could do) but they are *not allowed to give* those information to anyone else.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 14 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 26-Jan-2003 15:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Janne Sirén):
Hi All, I lost $250.00 USD when phase 5 went bankrupt... I probably still have the letter they sent me, but I will have to search for it. I had pre-ordered a G4 card for my A4000...

Darren
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 15 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 26-Jan-2003 15:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Darren Eveland):
What does it have to do with DCE or Genesi? I have preordered and prepayed for the G4 too, but I can't see your point...
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 16 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 26-Jan-2003 15:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Darren Eveland):
And .... ?

P5 went bancrupt, and you could try to get your money back from the
"bancrupsy-court", but since that allready sold everything owned
by Phase5 you are out of your luck.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 17 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 26-Jan-2003 16:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Kronos):
This offer was for people having trouble with DCE not Phase5
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 18 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 26-Jan-2003 16:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Kronos):
Read again :)

"Just out of curiosity for all you folks that are carefully reading this -- how
many people out there can document and forward it to us at the email address
above either 1) a receipt for money lost or other proof of a paid order to
Phase 5 when Phase 5 went bankrupt, (...)"
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 19 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 26-Jan-2003 17:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Darren Eveland):
Did you send them cash?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 20 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 26-Jan-2003 18:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Emeric SH):
Kronos et al... why don't you guys go back and read comment #5?

Thank you.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 21 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 26-Jan-2003 18:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
No, I paid with credit card, and I have the receipt to prove it. The problem is the credit card company can't do anything to help me after 1 year. I pre-ordered immediately. Phase 5 went bankrupt nearly a year later and at that point I was out of luck in terms of what the credit card company can do for me. Contacting the liquidator similarily amounted to nothing, as I was pretty much last on the list of people to get any money out of the bankruptcy.

Darren
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 22 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 26-Jan-2003 18:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
No, I paid with credit card, and I have the receipt to prove it. The problem is the credit card company can't do anything to help me after 1 year. I pre-ordered immediately. Phase 5 went bankrupt nearly a year later and at that point I was out of luck in terms of what the credit card company can do for me. Contacting the liquidator similarily amounted to nothing, as I was pretty much last on the list of people to get any money out of the bankruptcy.

Darren
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 23 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Sjoerd on 26-Jan-2003 21:13 GMT
The link 'comment' doesn't work
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 24 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by AmiDelf on 26-Jan-2003 21:14 GMT
Dont support DCE. For "some" reason I dont trust them and those who know whyknow it. I dont want to go into any new fight with DCE again. My comment!:DCE should convert to the PC scene and give them the same support as they giveCyberstormPPC users out there. Instead of killing happy Amiga users!Regards,AmiDelf
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 25 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 26-Jan-2003 21:43 GMT
This is beyond ridiculous.

If the information required is available and its disclosure does not contravene any trade secrets it obviously should be released to anyone who wants it -- particularly users that have been abandoned by the manufacturer.

Clearly Genesi feels no moral obligation to help users if they have no interest in purchasing their hardware or software. New company name, same people, same baloney.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 26 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 26-Jan-2003 22:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (anonymous):
You are ridiculus. What do you want ? Genesi to give a rebate on Amigaone ?
If they can make such offers and keep some amigans or ex amigans in Amigaland than it is good for everyone, including Hyperion. They have no obligation to do it.
I would have the same reaction if for example Eyetech would do such a marketing action.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 27 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 26-Jan-2003 22:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Christophe Decanini):
>You are ridiculus. What do you want ? Genesi to give a rebate on Amigaone ?
Guess what? You are beeing ridiculus now.

The answer to why Hyperion cannot get the GRex info is that the IP holder is neither bPlan nor Genesi nor DCE, so no one can legally give out the IP.
The answer to why MorphOs can use the GRex info is that somehow someone got all the GRex documentation and can add support for it.
The answer why they cannot give the info to Hyperion is that that would question the legal status of AOS4. Well, then why wouldn't this question the legal status of MorphOs the same way then?
And finally, why Genesi doesn't want to help here is that they don't want to give a rebate for amigaone??? Are you mad? Would GRex info mean a rebate for amigaone??? If I had an amigaone, I would hardly get a grex. And if I have a grex, I would hardly choose MorphOs because of the support for my busboard. I would rather just be annoyed with bPlan, Genesi, DCE for not allowing AOS4 support for GRex just for the sake of it!
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 28 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 26-Jan-2003 22:25 GMT
Amidelf: If you have such good reasons, why don't you share them with
us instead of this FUD? Because, right now you're saying absolutely
NOTHING except that you have some (secret?) info that supports your
allegation. And that's pure FUD.

With this, I'm not saying that DCE are good or anything. I don't know.
I'd really like to know. But spreading FUD doesn't help in any way.


Then, a comment about the GREX vs CSPPC info. I don't understand what
those of you who are implying that "Genesi could provide GREX info if
they wanted" are trying to make us believe. Now, if the Genesi people
were trying to make things difficult for Hyperion, wouldn't it make
much more sense to hide info about the CSPPC than about the GREX?
Surely the CSPPC is of more interest to Hyperion, and surely there's a
more direct competition in this case, seeing that existing PPC cards
are likely to provide a good part, if not most, of the market for OS4?

I think your "evil Genesi" theory falls flat here. On the other hand,
the legal explanation seems plausible. Unless you know something about
any contracts between phase5 and DCE/bPlan/Genesi/VSF or anyone else
that I don't, of course. But NDA clauses surely aren't rare in these
circumstances.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 29 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 26-Jan-2003 22:34 GMT
Hi Christophe (Decanini)... we were wondering later how many of the individuals on the petition actually had a G-Rex. Could it be this whole matter has more to do with support for OS4? It looks like we have a few Amiga Inc. employees and a few more related to Hyperion on the petition. We knew Christoph (Gutjahr) was close to Hyperion because we have traded heated emails with him before (he is a “reporter” for amiga-news). Why not just use an A1 or Pegasos for development work? We have offered the Pegasos.

You Anonymous #25 are ridiculous because 1) you do not have the courage to post your identity giving your comment a frame of reference, 2) you statements are so nonsensical they will be ignored as more clatter from disenchanted "loser." You remarks indicate you made absolutely no effort to understand the situation or the issue. Your post actually hurts your "side" of the discussion.

@anyone else If you lost money or product at DCE send us an email and we will develop a solution tailored to your unique situation. We are doing this on behalf of our own interests for the benefit of DCE and former members of Phase5. How could anyone seriously object to that?

Thanks for the support Johan!

Best regards,

R&B
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 30 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 26-Jan-2003 22:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
>The answer to why Hyperion cannot get the GRex info is that the IP holder is neither bPlan nor Genesi nor DCE, so no one can legally give out the IP.Right>The answer to why MorphOs can use the GRex info is that somehow someone got all the GRex documentation and can add support for it.Wrong. Someone did not get the information. They had it because they designed the HW. It is forbiden to them to give the information. is it that hard to understand ?>The answer why they cannot give the info to Hyperion is that that would question the legal status of AOS4. Well, then why wouldn't this question the legal status of MorphOs the same way then?No because the problem is to give the info. In the MorphOS case they had the info.>And finally, why Genesi doesn't want to help here is that they don't want to give a rebate for amigaone??? OK I was answering as well the post of the previous anonymous thinking it was you. ("can't they send cash").>Are you mad? Mad a anonymous users sometimes.>Would GRex info mean a rebate for amigaone??? Again I was answering to previous posts aswell where some people look to be ashamed about the Genesi offer.>If I had an amigaone, I would hardly get a grex.Granted.>And if I have a grex, I would hardly choose MorphOs because of the support for my busboard.If I had a G-REX I would choose morphOS as it makes sense for me to get the software from the same people that did the HW.>I would rather just be annoyed with bPlan, Genesi, DCE for not allowing AOS4 support for GRex just for the sake of it!I wouldn't. it is the same if I was annoyed that some of the Hyperion games I bought do not work properly on MorphOS.Note the "some" because someone from Genesi make it happening anyway. If Hyperion really wants the G-REX support I'am sure that they can find out the 4 addresses in no time.I don't know how legal it is but technicaly it should not be a problem for them.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 31 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 26-Jan-2003 23:08 GMT
BTW, with all the hostility that has been on the air; if I was a bplan employee who would know that with leaking the g-rex info I could be sued by a lawyer knowing that what I'am doing is illegal I would never do it.
Why should they help them when they consider that they have lost the Amiga deal because of them ?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 32 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 26-Jan-2003 23:50 GMT
Am I the only one who thinks that the timelines presented here simply don't work? Phase5 went under in February 2000 (see http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=0950107582&category=news ). Also in February 2000, DCE announces that they will take over the Phase5 products, and list them (see http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=0950357345&category=news --- the amiga-news.de interview is worth a read, too).Then, in SEPTEMBER 2000, over 7 months later, DCE announces the G-Rex (see http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=0969806016&category=news ), with a lot of "We present" and "We can deliver", and not a single mention of Phase5.Furthermore, Phase5 has never (prior to going bankrupt) indicated that they might produce a standalome customer version of the PCI bridge integrated into the BVPPC/CVPPC. And given Phase5's attitude of "announce first, develop second", this almost certainly means that they weren't at any point developing such a standalone consumer version.Yet DCE releases a product that has been developed far beyond the level of that integrated PCI bridge (or does anyone think the PCI bridge on the CVPPC is PCI DMA capable? For a Permedia2 chip?). So even if the G-Rex is based on Phase5's bridge, DCE apparently could develop it further. And yet, they supposedly don't have enough rights to the IP to mention 4 addresses?Somehow, the whole argument seems rather dubious. DCE can develop, build and sell this stuff --- and yet, they can't tell anyone how to use it? Yeah, right!
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 33 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 27-Jan-2003 00:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Bernd Meyer):
>Somehow, the whole argument seems rather dubious. DCE can develop, build and
>sell this stuff --- and yet, they can't tell anyone how to use it? Yeah,
>right!

The point wasn't can DCE do it, but can Genesi do it. People are pressuring Genesi to hand out this information. DCE and Genesi are separate legal entities. And even if DCE had all the information, it might be that their license does not allow them to hand out any information to third parties. (Or perhaps they can disclose everything but choose not to.)

Having said that, I myself find all sorts of things I'd like to hear more about in this discussion - for each and every side of it. If for no other reason than it makes for relatively interesting reading...

If Genesi can pass on this information, I think they probably should. I see little benefit in doing anything else. If they can't, well, too bad.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 34 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jan-2003 00:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Christophe Decanini):
>No because the problem is to give the info. In the MorphOS case they had the info.
From a legal point of view, this is still illegal. If I have (under NDA) information from company A and develops a solution for company A, I cannot legally develop a product for company B without the explicit permision (for example in the NDA) from company A. Since in this case, company A ceased to exists before company B appeared, I doubt that this permsion was given. (provided that the trustee did not give out this info, but in that case, I see no problem for the trustee to give out a licence for Hyperion since the trustees only goal is to gather as much money as possible from the bancrupcy. Having said that I think that pretty much should end the discussion what you can and cannot do just because you happend to have some information when one company goes bust.

I'd say that this was really just hypthetical since GRex was not produced, announced or sold by Phase 5 at all. It was a DCE product! How could they produce it if it was not legal?

>If I had a G-REX I would choose morphOS as it makes sense for me to get the software from the same people that did the HW.

Well, in that case I assume that you would never run Linux on your Mac since it wouldn't make sense to use an OS not made by the HW manufacturer. Ever wondered if some GRex users would like to use AOS4 because it is AOS4 and not because it is a very expensive driver for the GRex card???
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 35 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 27-Jan-2003 00:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Bernd Meyer):
The PCI bridge on the CVPPC is DMA capable.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 36 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 27-Jan-2003 01:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Anonymous):
>Well, in that case I assume that you would never run Linux on your Mac since it wouldn't make >sense to use an OS not made by the HW manufacturer.

I wouldn't buy the latest Mac HW and whine after Apple because they did not gave HW information to the Linux developers. If they want to protect their info it is their problem if when I bought the Mac they never claimed Linux compatability.
BTW I did not complain to Apple when I was unable to run BeOS on the Apple G3 and G4.

>Ever wondered if some GRex users would like to use AOS4 because it is AOS4 and not because it >is a very expensive driver for the GRex card???

Well, I understand that some of these G-REX owners want to run OS4. I just say that if I was a G-REX owner it would not surprise me that MorphOS supports it and OS4 not.
In the best world everything would support everything but it is not the case.
For example It is weird for me that Thendic have provided Cyberstorm documentation to Hyperion which helped them to code OS4.
Anyway my first comment was not specificaly addressed to you. I just read the whole thread and hit reply on the last comment.
Bernd made a good point about the G-REX release under DCE times and not phase5. From what I heard the G-REX has been built from a bridge which allowed to connect a regular PCI permedia2 card on the cyberstorm during the CVPPC development (P5 time). How much is Phase 5 IP and how much is DCE I don't know.

Anyway, I'am not surprised that OS4 will not support the G-REX. I also understand why OS4 does not support other PPC HW than the AmigaOne. I'am also not surprised to find on the G-REX petition some people without G-REX that would never sign the OS4/HW licensing petition.
I signed neither of them because I understand both sides position even if for the end users it would be better to have open solutions.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 37 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Hammer on 27-Jan-2003 02:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (AmiDelf):
>DCE should convert to the PC scene and give them the same support as they give
>CyberstormPPC users out there. Instead of killing happy Amiga users!

They wouldn’t last against the likes of MSI, ASUS, Tyan, Intel, Leadtek, Supermicro, Samsung, Acer(Mitsubishi), GigaByte, Dell, Gateway, HP(Compaq), IBM and "etc".
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 38 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jan-2003 07:25 GMT
HAHAHAHA we told you G-Rex was a failure.
(no wonder it is sold for ~45 euros now)
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 39 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 27-Jan-2003 07:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
Well. that's five times Price of AmigaDE SDK and that SDK even includes 100USD rebate coupon to New AmigaOne .. So. :)
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 40 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jan-2003 08:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Christophe Decanini):
> I wouldn't buy the latest Mac HW and whine after Apple because they did not gave HW information to the Linux developers.

That was not the point. Reread your own post and think about 'what made sense to do' in regards what OS to choose (and not what to whine about)

> I also understand why OS4 does not support other PPC HW than the AmigaOne.

And CyberStormPPC and (hopefylly) BlizzardPPC. What other PPC hardware out
there has an Amiga licence??? None to my knowledge.

>I'am also not surprised to find on the G-REX petition some people without G-REX that would never sign the OS4/HW licensing petition.

The difference is that the licensing details for an Amiga licence is available and not any different from any other hw/sw license.
The GRexx mess started with someone actively forbidding people who had the info, provide support for AOS4. Then it followed with a mess where someone said no one knows who is the IP holder, but they were quite sure that they couldn't give out the info without violating someones IP. So, I don't think you have a point here.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 41 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by AmiDelf on 27-Jan-2003 08:30 GMT
I am tired of DCE, I am tired of Amiga companies not doing their job, I am tired of the community bitching each others for nothing and I am tired of all those wich splits our community.

Amiga and its owners should think tougether. We've all waited so long and I know that most of Amiga people dont like AmigaONE or Pegasos. Theyre not Amigan and they arent what we all was hoping for.

Escom's AmigaPPC plans, thats the Amiga we've been waiting for.. so.. I am tired of all this, but I wont sell my Amiga because of this. Its mine, mine, mine :) And I would love to see better supportive Amiga companies in the future, nicer wordsattack at each others.

We all wants Amigas best and the only good way to do it, is to get all tougether
behind one goal, one mission.. and not a splitted community, because THAT is hearting our community a lot!

Regards,
AmiDelf
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 42 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jan-2003 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Anonymous):
"And CyberStormPPC and (hopefylly) BlizzardPPC. What other PPC hardware out
there has an Amiga licence??? None to my knowledge."

Those are former Phase5 products. They don't have an "Amiga license" either. It was just decided that this is an important hardware platform and MUST be supported with or without a license. Looks like Amiga's licensing scheme can be VERY flexible unless hardware such as the PEGASOS is concerned...
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 43 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Alfred Schwarz on 27-Jan-2003 09:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Christophe Decanini):
> How much is Phase 5 IP and how much is DCE I don't know.

Well, I think I have a simple example that DCE must have more then just a licence to build the original design:

They made already two different versions of the GRex1200, the first one only had one slot DMA enabled, but the next revision (1.1) had a hardware patch to support two DMA enabled PCI slots.
So IMHO DCE must have the rights to develop the design further (and I'm pretty sure I've read some time ago, I think in an interwiew with Mr. Dellert, that the GRex is only based on the already mentioned PCI bridge and developed by DCE) and not only build an existing design.

Ciao, Alfred
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 44 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 27-Jan-2003 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
Before posting comments, check who is actually making noise. It is the users of the G-REX that have organized this petition, and not Hyperion. We didn't have anything to do with it.

You probably know that, otherwise you wouldn't be posting as Anonymous, would you?
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 45 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 27-Jan-2003 10:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (bbrv):
Dear Bill,

as you might know this petition was started by a G-REX customer, not by Hyperion. As you might also know, some people "close to Hyperion" also signed Seehund's petition. This is because everyone has the right to his own opinion.

That is all there is to it, and all that I am going to say on the subject. Anyone wanting to discuss this further may write me a mail about it, if they feel like it.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 46 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jan-2003 10:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Anonymous):
> Those are former Phase5 products. They don't have an "Amiga license" either.

Yes they do. Those boards are all sitting in machines equiped with Amiga ROMS. I think that serves as a valid license.

> Looks like Amiga's licensing scheme can be VERY flexible unless hardware such as the PEGASOS is concerned...

Look, it is very different to support an existing hardware platform with a proven track record (CSPPC and BPPC) compared to suporting a new plaform with uncertain quality or support (Pegasos).
Has Amiga Inc denied bPlan a license? Has Genesi told you that they were denied a license? One can argue that the licensing requirements are hard to meet, but you can hardly argue Amiga Inc has denied anyone a license.
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 47 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 27-Jan-2003 11:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
Dear Hans-Joerg, we think everyone understood that, but thanks for clarifying that.

@ Anonymous #46

We negotiated back and forth with Amiga Inc. for a license to the "classic" OS. We could not come to a mutually agreeable terms. It is not a question of a license being "denied," it is rather that we could not come to an agreement. There are plenty of opinions on why that did not happen (but, there are really only two that effect the situation -- the two parties concerned). We did achieve and agreement for AmigaDE. We will see were that leads...

Recognizing the difficulties between Genesi and Amiga Inc., we suggested a third party deal with this. Originally, we thought the best candidate would be Eyetech as they were a party to the OS4 Development Agreement (with Hyperion and Amiga Inc) and a hardware vendor. This idea was not well received. It could be someone else – for example, the www.pegasos-uk.com team or Computer City. In both organizations the key players have been involved with the “community” for some time and neither have too much bias against them from either side of the discussions.

Sincerely,

R&B
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 48 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by screwemall on 27-Jan-2003 11:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Anonymous):
> One can argue that the licensing requirements are hard to meet, but you can
> hardly argue Amiga Inc has denied anyone a license.

No shit! When even a company like Eyetech can get a license for the then unfinished Teron CX evaluation revision, and when there was no AmigaOS to run "quality assurance" tests with... Oh, wait... Eyetech provided "consultation" when the hw-distributor license was invented. Silly me.

How strange it is that there are no more applicants for a license from a company like ainc to sell hardware bundled with an OS like AmigaOS... Really odd. Remarkable.

And now Genesi can prance around shouting "evil ainc won't let you run AmigaOS on our hw" and Hyperion can say "booo-hoooh, evil Genesi won't give us docs", when it's just ONE VERY EASILY FIXED FUCKUP: remove the idiotic hw-distributor licensing requirement!
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 49 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 27-Jan-2003 11:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (bbrv):
I felt the need to clarify because oviously not everyone did in fact realize this, as comment #3 indicates :-)
BBRV on GRex, DCE : Comment 50 of 107ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 27-Jan-2003 11:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (screwemall):
I'm curious how long it takes until this comment (48) is deleted. Can't you bring your point over without going for gutter language?

Anyway, where do you take the knowledge from that there are no other applicants?

And what makes you think that an OS will automatically adapt to another hardware just because the licence is removed? Or do you honestly think that if Apple removed the ASL from OS X that it would run on the AmigaOne or Pegasos without MOL?

Thought so.
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