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[Rant] The current situation..ANN.lu
Posted on 13-Feb-2003 14:17 GMT by AdmV99 comments
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What is the current overview. I am not sure I have all the information, but what is now clear is that all the current amiga projects have hit the rocks, and there is little sign of a long term improvement. Perhaps its just me. But maybe not. I'll just go over the various forces at work here for a moment:

Amiga, Hyperion, Eyetech

External forces:

MAI

External development team

Lawsuit

Customer pressures

Current status: After a difficult road on the hardware front, and now a failure of supply on the part of MAI, the hardware side is at a standstill. The operating system development we are told continues. Now a lawsuit threatens both of these teams with a drain upon already limited resources. How very self destructive.

Genesi, MorphOS

External forces:

MAI

Internal pressures

Internal testing of hardware changes

Customer pressures

OS development lagging behind release standard.

I would regard both of these camps now as the primary projects that occur in the amiga 'sphere'. Both are now badly hampered by a single source supplier, and a lack of parts. It seems that despite both camps making claims, the production aims were always tiny (and thus you have to question some parts of the projects, but back to that in a moment) and production must have been small not to hit shortages earlier.

This does highlight the huge hit both groups are taking in development costs. Whatever the basis of their refusal to work together on their hardware, and thus the reduced possibility of producing in volume, buying parts in volume, and forming strong relations with suppliers, the true folly and stupidity of the selfish interests at work in the amiga 'sphere' are clearly at the fore.

While neither party has enough weight with their supply partner (MAI) it is far more uncertain as to the future supply of chips to either project. The inability to talk to suppliers in terms of bulk unit purchase and volume is and will remain a 'turn off' to suppliers. There is no chance whatsoever of being a tier one style customer if the most units you purchase are in the tens or perhaps hundreds.

In addition, my understanding (and I may be totally wrong on this..) is that MAI are less than happy with what their customers have published and squabbled over. Having your faulty product outed by a supplier is a less than ideal way of keeping good relations. Even now as I type, in every area of the amiga 'sphere' MAI are being universally blamed. Yet, perhaps its not quite true that this is all MAI's fault.

If the original orders were weak or small, its not possible for MAI to do correct production. They may have to work on guaranteed orders or limited FAB production time, and other factors.

Further to this, the (MAI) chip/set has had problems. Now these problems are well documented. But again, having seperate small projects posting information that is broken, or bit part shows the weakness of having the smaller weaker hardware development teams and all the limits that entails.

One simple suggestion to the two projects would be to work together on ordering with MAI if nothing else. By placing the bigger order you guys might get MAI to actually start treating you properly. Even then your orders may not be big enough to bring you to a sensible level.

Now, that aside, both projects are now being hurt badly by several aspects. These vary from customer let-down. Project time line failures, and lack of delivery.

The hopes of many a user were based on an idea that finally after a long time, two groups (wether you prefer one group, or another, or if like me you have some interest in general) was based on a premise that both were built and aimed (at least thats a public perception) on an ideal of being big enough to get something done, both in the OS sense, and the hardware sense.

Sadly we again have ego success over logic. None of the participants was capable of such a project. Both OS teams have pretty vast projects, that are in truth more than they can complete, at least in the short time-frame suggested publicly at the start of the projects.

Both hardware teams had large projects and limited resources. To be fair, both teams have produced, but look at what they are now working under. Due to the limited sizes of their production runs, the supply is at a trickle for key components. Neither party has enough weight to work with the key supplier to make things happen, and both parties are suffering badly as all the development is now not getting return investment via sales.

Further, consumer confidence is being annihilated by a lack of trust, and failures to deliver that is hurting both parties very badly. What is certain is that a lack of willingness to work together has caused part of this. The other downside is that to a large degree, production costs are far higher on both sides when refusing to work together. Its commercial suicide. What is worse is that with relations all around, MAI are or at least seem to be in no hurry to assist, and these parties continued war amongst themselves there looks to be little sign that a long term answer to increased production, supply and reduced purchasing costs for the end customer will be found.

And my thinking here, is that as an untimate cost to this, is that this factor leaves all the OS development shattered upon the broken landscapes of the amiga wars from the past. With now real hardware base, there is no software base. Even if there were, what is even worse is that both parties have been so stupid in terms of collaboration, that even if you did get a hardware base, that base is split due to differences about the OS. Show me a company anywhere in the world that activly looks to cull its possible customer base by 50%.

*Only in the amiga 'sphere' is it likely people can be so stupid.*

Right about now, both parties are, or will soon enough come to reason that they have or are failing, or will fail longterm. One escapee MIGHT be the ex Visicorp and phase 5 inspired people/project with a set top box style project that is there real focus anyway (or so they make out.)

You could see long term after the whole thing breaks one party taking most of whats left of the IP and using it elsewhere. But the likelyhood of an amiga desktop system will never ever return based on the current projects progress, and its all down to people having too much ego, and a refusal to work together for the benefit of even themselves(not just the end customer) is reaping the whirlwind.

It remains inconceivable to me that OS development and costs will be supported without hardware options, and sales. Therefore, some things MUST occur or this will mean the end:

1. The hardware teams/companies begin to work co-operatively (at least in supply of some parts and working with a supplier).

2. OS development dovetails into a cross hardware end user satisfying conclusion, and thus opens each vendor up into a 50% prospective larger market.

3. Customer care and general information is both more forthcoming and has a higher level of honesty, and a lower level of deceit, lies, fud, claim and counter claim. Also a keener understanding that even despite the cloud cookoo land mentality that they can do things by themselves, the amiga 'sphere' is as are all spheres, a sim-biotic sphere.

4. Competition can be healthy if its end product is the market 'sphere' growth. Competition that is damaging or causes shrinkage or damage to the market sphere is self defeating long term. Co-operation between competitors is _NOT_ALWAYS_BAD.

5. Customers, and potential customers ideally need to impress upon these teams/projects, that they MUST work together. They must demand hardware and software that both works, and is built with a level of co-operation and compatability. No developer in their right mind is going to double every area of work to try and sell their products on TWO OS systems, and different disperate hardware, dongles, DRM and protection rackets.

6. Longer term production, supply and end customer satisfaction must be renewed.

I would urge any customer who is interested in any or several projects to make it clear to these teams and projects that certain criteria has to exist, for them to be acceptable.

Unless the customers are more savvy than in the past, the customer will be a loser, as well as these project teams. You will again see the days of money being handed over to suppliers and non delivery/companies going bust, and all that goes with it.

Lastly, as I have recently said 'Trust no one' at least until they show why they are worth you trust, money or concern.

Kind Regards

AdmV

The current situation.. : Comment 1 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 13-Feb-2003 13:57 GMT
On the OS-development-front, it might be of interest to note that the Petunia page (http://www.amiga.hu/amigos/rachy/petunia.html) has just been updated...
The current situation.. : Comment 2 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 13-Feb-2003 14:12 GMT
Well...The AmigaOne is still in testing, with a newly produced XE board. There isn't much information on this available though. Still running Linux, as OS 4 for the Amiga One isn't ready yet. Many users are frustrated about the recent lack of information (especially those who have pre-ordered).

OS 4 for Cyberstorm PPC is also not ready, although said to be in "beta testing". There is a progress report in the latest "club amiga" newsletter, but it really doesn't say much. No release date has been announced, although many have hoped it would be March/03 or at least sometime in 2003. Details on OS 4 can be found on Amiga Inc.'s website. Some components of OS 4 have been demoed at a few shows but not on the AmigaOne, where only the Hyperion-enhanced BIOS has been shown.

Genesi's Pegasos is also not currently available. They are waiting on chips from MAI. People there (in general) seem to be less frustrated (with the exception of Mikey060) because there is much more open communications from Genesi about the situation and they have actually shipped a working board to beta testers and have MorphOS already running and demonstrated at many shows.

Amiga DE - no news there, really. Supposed to be out on various devices and also Microsoft has publically talked about the game packs. At least one new game announced by a software vendor.

Thendic is taking Amiga Inc. to court over breech of contract for Amiga DE.

Amithlon is in gridlock, no official releases in a long time. There is a contract dispute between the primary authors and Haage and Partner. No one is making any concessions and Amiga Inc. hasn't done anything, although in the Executive update from last year they claimed a new version would be "Out soon".
The current situation.. : Comment 3 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 13-Feb-2003 14:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Bernd Meyer):
In reference to?

Dammy
The current situation.. : Comment 4 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Feb-2003 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Bernd Meyer):
hmmm, can you actualy see what is new?
The current situation.. : Comment 5 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 13-Feb-2003 14:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (dammy):
Well, read for yourself --- the update suggests that the information on the page is current. And while there isn't a strict timeline, there are a number of occurrences each of "now" and "later". Presumably, what is listed as "now" is done, and what is listed as "later" hasn't been done yet....
The current situation.. : Comment 6 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 13-Feb-2003 14:32 GMT
Yeah - It's all a bit abboying isn't it?

---
Sam
The current situation.. : Comment 7 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 13-Feb-2003 14:33 GMT
Yeah - It's all a bit annoying isn't it?

---
Sam
The current situation.. : Comment 8 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 13-Feb-2003 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Sam Smith):
A bit like this keyboard. ;)

---
Sam
The current situation.. : Comment 9 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Feb-2003 14:36 GMT
bullshit
The current situation.. : Comment 10 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 13-Feb-2003 14:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Bernd Meyer):
I did read it, it's the FIRST time I've ever read that page which is why I was asking for clarificaiton on what was new/nifty. ;-)

DAmmy
The current situation.. : Comment 11 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 13-Feb-2003 14:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (dammy):
I couldn't see any change on the Petunia page from before XMas.

Possibly the speed tests have been re-run.

It still says the process of integration is under way - as it said
months ago. No list of programs that work.
The current situation.. : Comment 12 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Christoph Gutjahr on 13-Feb-2003 14:50 GMT
@AdmV

>> Both are now badly hampered by a single source
>> supplier, and a lack of parts.

Wrong. Only Bill Buck blames MAI for his delays. Alan Redhouse never did that. And according to hints several subscribers of the A1-dev list posted to the public A1 mailing list, the AmigaOneXE boards may already have arrived at Eyetech.
The current situation.. : Comment 13 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 13-Feb-2003 14:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Christoph Gutjahr):
>the AmigaOneXE boards may already have arrived at Eyetech

End of Feburary according to point design for customers and pre series
should have arrived this week. So no wonder Eyetech has them.
The current situation.. : Comment 14 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by logain on 13-Feb-2003 15:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Christoph Gutjahr):
>Wrong. Only Bill Buck blames MAI for his delays.

Well, Alan Redhouse blamed the CPU supplier for their "take it or leave it-attitude"..
The current situation.. : Comment 15 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Maniero on 13-Feb-2003 15:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Don Cox):
The tests have been rerun, and the test programs have been changed (therefore I think he has updated the PetuniaTests.lha you can download from that page). Julia FPU and LZX packing were not included, while Chunkycopy was. How is it possible I do remember? Well, I don't, I just checked the Trance results, whose URL was posted here on ANN some time ago...

@Christoph Gutjahr
Alan never blamed MAI because he is relying heavily on them (he distributes the whole motherboard designed by MAI, not just the Articia chip): if he didn't accept MAI's delay, he would have to design his own motherboard :)

Kind regards,
Andrea
The current situation.. : Comment 16 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by o1i on 13-Feb-2003 15:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Don Cox):
Thanks to google cache ;)
main differences between the 13.2.2003 and the 3.10.2002 version:

new petunia version is 0.39 (old: 0.37)

new banchmakr machine added (A4000+Cyberstorm MkII 060/66, PicassoIV+Picasso96)

benchmark figures slightly differ

old:
When will the FPU work?
It is almost ready.
new:
When will the FPU work?
It is ready, up and running.

So the news is, that the FPU part is done now, as it seems.
The current situation.. : Comment 17 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by cheesee on 13-Feb-2003 15:16 GMT
right on the ball my friend
The current situation.. : Comment 18 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Mirror on 13-Feb-2003 15:38 GMT
The A1 XE G4's have been built. No MAI supply problems at all.
They ship to end users in 6 working days from now.
That meens they should start going out around Monday Feb 24th according to alans last posting.
The current situation.. : Comment 19 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 13-Feb-2003 15:41 GMT
... and one wonders how this whole community would have looked if Mr. Hermanns hadn't bashed Amithlon into oblivion, scaring developers and users away awaiting this forever "real soon now" to be released Amiga One...

... wonder how many users and developers have eroded away these last 1½-2 years awaiting the holly grail, while a real, fast and cheap interim solution existed.

... just wondering...
The current situation.. : Comment 20 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Feb-2003 15:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Darren Eveland):
"Some components of OS 4 have been demoed at a few shows but not on the AmigaOne, where only the Hyperion-enhanced BIOS has been shown."

Not strictly true, Hyperion have demonstrated their PowerPC kernel "ExecSG" running some simple tests on the A1 at WoASE, you remember it printed out claims about how fast the context switches were and that sort of thing.

Anyway, here's some food for thought: What happens if Hyperion did manage some time in December / January to integrate Petunia with ExecSG, and they found that a lot of serious 68K software either won't run that way, or runs as slow as an unexpanded A1200 ? There are a lot of scenarios like that which leave Hyperion in a very sticky place. So anything could happen.
The current situation.. : Comment 21 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 13-Feb-2003 15:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
OS 4 components were demoed at the Ottawa Amiga show last year. I saw them with my own eyes :) This in addition to ExecSG. They were running on an A4000T.

Darren
The current situation.. : Comment 22 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 13-Feb-2003 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
>and they found that a lot of serious 68K software either won't run that way

They already know this. They always said that their chosen method is less
compatible but faster than other methods of implementing it. Also if you read
the Petunia homepage they have not changed their implementation. I guess we
will see the first public demo, as said by Ben Hermans and Alan Redhouse, at
Cebit.
The current situation.. : Comment 23 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 13-Feb-2003 15:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (o1i):
I wonder if it will be fully completed and integrated when the OS4 is to be launched in March ...?
The current situation.. : Comment 24 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 13-Feb-2003 16:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (takemehomegrandma):
Hasn't your grandma turned up yet?
The current situation.. : Comment 25 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 13-Feb-2003 16:06 GMT
Some things don't have to be guesses, for example, Bill Buck said he ordered 400 chips from Mai this last round.

Yes, its obvious Eyetech was eyeballing the 'retro' computing market from day one, and wasn't leading a comeback of any kind....that is his business, the retro computing market. He doesn't think the CommodoreOne is going to take the world by storm either, he just makes a sustainable profit in his niche market.

All this nonsense about joining forces has to be proven first. There is really no difference between ordering 400 chips and 800 chips, so combining forces might not really have any impact at all.

I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm also not saying it does. I have seen many small camps join forces, and the end result to have a single small camp, still not large enough to do much of anything, but losing value and distinction for its members...

I am specifically thinking of small political parties that commited suicide by 'joining forces'....

All these assumptions really have to be tested. Did MAI ever say they give a huge bulk discount at 800 chips, but not 400?

I don't think they ever said such a thing.
The current situation.. : Comment 26 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Christoph Gutjahr on 13-Feb-2003 16:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Andrea Maniero):
>> Alan never blamed MAI because he is relying heavily on them
>> (he distributes the whole motherboard designed by MAI, not
>> just the Articia chip): if he didn't accept MAI's delay, he
>> would have to design his own motherboard :)

As it stands, there are three possibilities:

1. Both Alan "CPU shortage" Redhouse and Bill "MAI doesn't deliver" Buck speak the truth. -> Eyetech doesn't have a problem with the supply of ArticiaS chips

2. Bill Buck lies. -> ArticiaS northbridges are available in sufficient quantities

3. Alan Redhouse lies. -> there actually *is* a very limitied supply of ArticiaS chips.

That means, if we want to discuss the shortage of ArticiaS chips and how to react to it (that's what AdmV did), we have to assume that Alan Redhouse is lying. But I don't think that's what AdmV wanted to say.

And if somebody wants to claim that Alan is lying, he certainly has to come up with more evidence than just "he's a clueless idiot selling second-hand boards that MAI can't get rid of otherwise" ;-)
The current situation.. : Comment 27 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 13-Feb-2003 16:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Christoph Gutjahr):
>Eyetech doesn't have a problem with the supply of ArticiaS chips

I guess it depends about how many chips Alan is speaking. If he is speaking
about as many as A1 SEs have been produced then Bill Buck would be right.
The current situation.. : Comment 28 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 13-Feb-2003 16:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Christoph Gutjahr):
I think there are Articias available ... the old ones that needs the April fix.

Hypothesis: How would Eyetech look if they delivered the A1's with old Articias and Aprils glued on to them after all things they said (FUD accusations, "there are no bugs", etc)? Better to wait for the new Articias with the bplan fixes hidden *inside* the silicon instead! But how would they explain the delays? Ah, lack of CPU's!

But this is only speculations of course ...
The current situation.. : Comment 29 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Schober on 13-Feb-2003 16:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (David Scheibler):
>>the AmigaOneXE boards may already have arrived at Eyetech
>
>End of Feburary according to point design for customers and pre series
>should have arrived this week. So no wonder Eyetech has them.

Well, it has been confirmed a board (XE-G4/800) has been sent on Monday
but didn't reach us yet (which might be normal, UK-Austria might take
long on smail??dam...). But there's still hope will have a G4 system up and running this weekend...;) [and if not, then at least by next week]

regards
Jürgen, point.design
The current situation.. : Comment 30 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 13-Feb-2003 16:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Bernd Meyer):
> On the OS-development-front, it might be of interest to note that the
> Petunia page (http://www.amiga.hu/amigos/rachy/petunia.html) has just been
> updated...

Seems they need some optimizing still... :)
The current situation.. : Comment 31 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Leo on 13-Feb-2003 17:18 GMT
Nice thought...

Unlike other computing companies, Amiga companies don't need any other companies
to kill them... They are so good at killing each other...
The current situation.. : Comment 32 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by The Zeer on 13-Feb-2003 17:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Leo):
At least there will always be the alternative of cheap hardware (x86) with a free Amiga-like OS (AROS). free = free for anyone to modify and redistribute, thus virtually immortal and immune to corporate failures. Now AROS isnt nearly useful, but hey, Linux started smaller in 1991 :)
The current situation.. : Comment 33 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 13-Feb-2003 17:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Darren Eveland):
What "OS4 Components", Hyperion haven't demonstrated anything, because they lack anything to demonstrate, MorphOS doesn't count as an OS4 component either,(please don't say FFS2/RoadShow/Dopus, or some aminet project to be included).
The current situation.. : Comment 34 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 18:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Darren Eveland):
"also Microsoft has publically talked about the game packs."

I've not looked this month, but there was one pack (with AmigaDE game) listed as a item being sold somewhere ai microsoft.com...
The current situation.. : Comment 35 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 13-Feb-2003 18:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Mirror):
"They ship to end users in 6 working days from now.
That meens they should start going out around Monday Feb 24th
according to alans last posting. "

Provided there are no customs delays or closed airports.
The current situation.. : Comment 36 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 18:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Christoph Gutjahr):
Eyetech is using (or trying to use) newer version of ArtisiaS. They are becoming available... Genesi uses the ones that are cheaper and available in higher number, the last patch of old ArtisiaS.
The current situation.. : Comment 37 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 18:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (takemehomegrandma):
Eyetech does not need April. They have their own "no-name" fix that is welded into the previous A1SE boards with jump wires. 8O Neither should those new XE boards need April
The current situation.. : Comment 38 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 18:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (MIKE):
New intuition has been demonstrated ... see os.amiga.com for more info...
The current situation.. : Comment 39 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 18:45 GMT
Some observations about Amiga:
- AmigaInc is updating their web pages ... there's a sign of life ... almost.
- AmigaOS4 localization's are being written and the petunia page got minor updates ... AOS4 is proceeding ... slowly but still...
- pictures of the NEW AmigaOneG4XE board were posted to web (there's the integrated audio + game port) ... so also A1 is proceeding
- pictures of dual G4 was also published

Some observations about Genesi:
- they are communicating with the community in a better way than what AInc has done since early y2000... they are blood & flesh after all. ;)
- the latest (?) MorphOS was released 9th of February ... so even if the pegasos is unavailable, the OS is proceeding ...

Now... would it be worth to book a flight to Cebit 2003, I just wonder?
The current situation.. : Comment 40 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 13-Feb-2003 18:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (priest):
While you are there, purchase a $50 off coupon with free t-shirt, still advertised prominently.......lol
The current situation.. : Comment 41 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Marktime on 13-Feb-2003 18:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (priest):
What A, Inc. pages were updated? see my previous post, still advertising a promotion that ended July 31, 2002.....
The current situation.. : Comment 42 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 13-Feb-2003 18:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (MIKE):
New intuition components were demoed at the Ottawa Amiga show.
-new preferences utility for managing USB
-new intuition (dragging windows off screen, prefs, etc)
-new amidock

There is a show report on the Ottawa Amiga Show webpage. You can find it in Google.
The current situation.. : Comment 43 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 18:58 GMT
I think this was not yet posted to here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/25045

(news from Alan)
The current situation.. : Comment 44 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by marktime on 13-Feb-2003 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (priest):
thanks,

on another subject has anyone ever heard from John Hindle yet?
The winner of the AmigaOne/OS4 coupon draw.

Funny there is another John Hindle of Lancs, England, he died in 1942.
Presumably this is a different John Hindle, but I don't make any assumptions :-)
The current situation.. : Comment 45 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 19:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Marktime):
Gone are the links to the amigaworld ... and the sad list of promised games, etc, etc....
The current situation.. : Comment 46 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 19:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (MarkTime):
Do not kill yourself while laughing, but some seem to have bought coupon(s) lately...
The current situation.. : Comment 47 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by logain on 13-Feb-2003 19:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (priest):
are you talking about this list?

http://www.amiga.com/feature/about_amiga/apps.shtml

or this?

http://www.amiga.com/games/a2.shtml
The current situation.. : Comment 48 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 13-Feb-2003 20:19 GMT
pointless rant imho.

if you spent all this effort and time on more productive things......

alan
The current situation.. : Comment 49 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 13-Feb-2003 20:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Darren Eveland):
Ok, I thought I mentioned no aminet components.
The current situation.. : Comment 50 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by krize on 13-Feb-2003 21:24 GMT
Atleast something is happening .... slowly, but its going forward ...

But co-operating with certain things might not be so stupid, both boards will be availible, They might as well co-operate rather than destroy each other ..

or ?
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