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[News] Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategyANN.lu
Posted on 17-Feb-2003 08:22 GMT by Senex80 comments
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In the ANN-Thread Plexuscom and Genesi to Cooperate on PegasosPPC for CeBit Release Bill Buck & Raquel Velasco of Genesi made the following statement regarding their near- and midterm strategy: If our strategic vision is compelling and our execution excellent, we will increasingly attract skilled developers (like you). What Ralph, Frank and the core MorphOS Development Team have accomplished to date is exceptional, but now we need to establish a professional development and management system for MorphOS, formally retain the services of all key MorphOS developers, and recruit new talent to the project. We have struck on the Phoenix association to develop a third-party vehicle to do this too. It is not much more than a concept today, but we are starting to see ideas solidify on the mailing lists and there is a good deal of potential there. We need to be somewhat selective in insuring that these next boards go to people that will advance in communion with our effort. Hence, our new pricing offer through Phoenix for $299/299 Euro (understanding the fluctuations?if it becomes a big difference we will adjust).

Our targeted resource/sales markets from the near to medium term are:

1. Amiga/MorphOS
2. DTV STB and Pegasos STB
3. LinuxPPC and OtherPPC

We will continue to promote to the Amiga/MorphOS market, as we have. Our underlying focus will be: broadening and stabilizing MorphOS, attracting applications and drivers (ports/original programs), and establishing a ?Pegasos? toolkit. At the same time, the "Pegasos Network" is working (ex. www.pegasos-XXX.com) and our online sales support and information site at www.genesi-support.com will continue to improve. If we are lucky we will awaken and attract the slumbering ex-Commodore consumer market, but that will take some time and we are not quite ready for mass-market attention. The sites will be there and ready. Until we are ready for ?prime time? we will not promote the sites as much as we could. Plus, we will standardize the Pegasos distribution network over the next few months taking a semi-franchise approach. When we are ready, everything will be in place. (You might also want to check out www.morphzone.org)

On the hardware side we start where we are: the Pegasos. We have discussed the features: upgradeable (G3, G4, Dual, etc.), scalable (stackable boards), modifiable (smaller ? eclipsis, subsets/modular ? Psylent/STB), and open, as in Open Firmware (facilitates scheme for peripheral association/development IAW the IE1275 standard). We have developed a solid plan and feature set for each Pegasos envisioned and the corresponding software bundles. The management review actually begins today in Paris. The bplan guys arrive today as well as others.

It was the Pegasos that convinced our largest customer to go ahead with the DTV STB project. It is worth hundreds of thousands of Euros to us and it is what IS creating the opportunity to do everything else. It is still based on MorphOS and a PPC, so our Developers will be insured a stable business partner and an increasing stable environment for development and the future. In this case the potential is enormous and the development contract itself produces the profit equivalent of more than the sale of 1000 Pegasos mainboards per month. Can you understand the benefit this brings to all efforts?

The Pegasos STB is just a Pegasos (and something else again), but it is focused on another market. It actually aims more at breaking down the digital ?Berlin Wall? between countries in Europe and North America and countries everywhere else that are not so affluent (Mainland China, India, Latin America, Africa, etc.). We could sell this product as a "computer" that uses the television in the home already as a monitor (like computers of the past we have known). From the hardware side, it is a relatively simple development for us. A CD drive and a hard disc would be optional. There would be keyboard and remote control options (a users existing keyboard or mouse could be used as the Pegasos is already compliant with open firmware standard IEEE1275). Of course, this would create an interesting market for memory sticks (see www.plexuscom.com). There are hundreds of applications already running on the Pegasos, including many games and all in many languages (thanks to the ability to run Amiga applications).

Our thought is that PCs do not have the same penetration in these areas as in Western countries for years to come simply because of their cost. With volume we'll be able to undercut them without sacrificing functionality or speed. We think the potential could be running into millions of units. BTW, last year STBs of video games sold nearly 30 million units (PlayStation2, Xbox, and GameCube). We are not at that level yet, but we could be and we can offer more applications than games (and no special attachment for the Internet either).

About Linux and the other targets..

Linux people usually want something great for nothing, but in the PPC market if we can get a design win over the competition the next price point is a Mac. As more professionals and desktop consumers switch to Linux, the future of commercial software on Linux is very bright and so is our hardware. Functionality will become precedent over cost in this market. We need a bootable bundled distro and Mac-on-Linux. Linux will be a major force in the future. Today, it is still difficult to install software, drivers, set up firewalls, etc., but because of the generous licensing environment and the massive corporate support Linux is gaining (IBM, HP, etc.) as well as government mandates and funding in many countries, it is set to become the "next big thing.? We need to be part of that trend.

Any PPC OS that is reasonable to port with external resources is interesting to us. We have a Go/NoGo decision matrix (that gets more tuned as we advance). Again, we are looking for resources and developer talent. For example, while Linux gets the glory, BSDs are running some of the biggest sites. The OpenBSD port is being undertaken now (we got the first screenshot last week). Further, there is an increasing amount of interesting open source projects we could find a way to adapt to our use.

Finally, we are interested in restoring the Demo Scene to the Pegasos. The traditional and overt message in a demo was technical skill. The visual effects pushed the supposed limits of the platform?s capability and graphics were skillfully executed. Good demos are the marriage of advanced technical, creative and artistic abilities. For the future, we need a new generation of ?Sceners? to be pulling the most from the platform and the OS. This can generate plenty of positive attention. Besides the nVidia butterfly lady has the wrong color wings! This is why we decided to sponsor Equinoxe (and maybe BreakPoint if we can sort something out this week).

All these ?other things? all ultimately bring us back to our key advantage: a completely integrated solution, including hardware, operating system, and applications. The new Management Team is working hard to turn this vision into a reality. They will be presenting the first plans this week. While the sale of the Pegasos and MorphOS alone could never sustain the Company we are building, it may one day in the future. We use the Pegasos today to begin our move to the future, while insuring the development and growth of the MorphOS.

Hope you appreciate how early we got up to write this!

We will be very busy this week ? not too many more posts or emails will be answered.

Best regards,

R&B
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 1 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 17-Feb-2003 08:47 GMT
I did not believe in your set top box vision years ago and am less inclined to take notice of it now.
It offers nothing to pegasos owners whom want a desktop, and indeed means the resources supplied for them and their system are not a priority.

Course, thats only a 2 cents opinion and I could be wrong. Good luck anyway.

AdmV
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 2 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 17-Feb-2003 09:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (AdmV):
@AdmV

The DTV-STB is the big deal known for some time now, so no news here. And the Pegasos-STB is exactly that: based on the Pegasos-board. I.e. although promoted (mainly) as a STB, you indeed have a complete computer with full functionality and therefore certainly also a full-blown (Morph)OS.

Therefore I completely fail to understand how exactly we Desktop-users should suffer from that.

And as you can read yourself in that statement, that other STB-project, the DTV-STB, brings them the necessary money to improve MorphOS (codecs, drivers, further licensed technologies), so there's rather a benefit also to the desktop-users.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 3 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 17-Feb-2003 09:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Senex):
Sorry, I don't get it.

You take the expensive pegasos base which costs an arm and a leg, and you then move to make (what would have to be CHEAP) set top boxes.

Sorry, this thing does'nt correlate to me.

This just looks like someone trying to produce a product like the VIA eden system board (and its aimed market), and do it with far more expensive hardware, and a lot less resources.

AdmV
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 4 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 17-Feb-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (AdmV):
@AdmV

That's why there are TWO STB-systems - the cheap DTV-STB for their big customer and the Pegasos-STB as a special solution for a different target (see this news-item). It's, as far as I've understood it, a complete package to use out of the box that is aimed at other countries in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. To me it seems to be a kind of A500. You just buy it and use it without the need of special knowledge, but if you really wish (and can afford it), you can expand it later (obviously you might change the case then, as with the A500). And cheaper than the standard Pegasos-setup you'd need to sell here in Europe/NA it will be for example just because you won't need the very latest graphics card in those markets they're aiming at.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 5 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 17-Feb-2003 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (AdmV):
To be more concrete: I think we should solve ourselves from that term "STB" and its meaning. With the so-called "Pegasos-STB" we in fact have a real computer, just in a special case. (In opposite to the DTV-STB, which really is what I'd call a STB). So we just should look at what is in the inside, not at under what a name it is marketed. Personally, I don't care as what Genesi sell the Pegasos-boards (if as mainboard, Psylent-Homeserver, "STB" or whatever), as long as they indeed DO sell them successfully.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 6 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by kjetil on 17-Feb-2003 10:46 GMT
>Pegasos is already compliant with open firmware standard IEEE1275

the IEEE1275 is slow compeered with USB2.0 is outdated as far as I se it, even so
the firmware interface is the standard that is used by the video-cams of the market

>Linux people usually want something great for nothing

This is wring in my view, the hardest part when running Linux is finding the piece of hardware that is supported by Linux if it cost more well be it. One more thing when running Linux, PPC is not sale point for home users. When it comes to precompiled Linux binís,

>Finally, we are interested in restoring the Demo Scene to the Pegasos

The demo seine is the testing ground for new developers, if you like to grab new kids you most target Pegasus at game market, less costly system like play station, drop the diskdrive, drop every thing you do not need for gaming par port / ser port, firewrite etc. and you need drivers for best gfx bards, make faster buss system, faster CPU. And so on.

Young kids do not have that type of money you know!
--

If you target Pegasos as a game box you me for ever be recognized as an game box, you may be left out of otter markets.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 7 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 17-Feb-2003 11:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (kjetil):
Sorry, still don't buy it.

If you have a full STB which is basically in a box, unless I am nuts, you need to have something to sell that with an aspiration.

For PS2, Nintendo, and other boxes, I clearly see what they are for, and what support they have, games available and so forth. At this time, all I see is a high price tag, a strange attitude towards the desktop, an aspiration to sell masses of STB in one form or another.

I have yet to see any form of STB based on a computer be a success. I see lots of Cable TV boxes, lots of TIVO, lots of specific DSL, Firewall, and other STB style devices, BUT not many that are a PPC computer with fuck all software support, limited hardware support.

As for a set top box. Unless you can show me how this PPC based unit will be cheaper than other platforms, I cannot see it being a success. STB's only success has been in ultra low cost areas and specifically task based.

Perhaps I am wrong and Genesi have a deal lined up with Motorola, and with ASUS (Or another large mobo maker), and will be able to buy the components in vast numbers to bring unit cost down to 'consumer cost level'. I'll believe that when I see it frankly. Given the recent announcement regarding the Phoenix developers, I have even less faith than before.

AdmV
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 8 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by kriz on 17-Feb-2003 11:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (kjetil):
"The demo seine is the testing ground for new developers, if you like to grab new kids you most target Pegasus at game market, less costly system like play station, drop the diskdrive, drop every thing you do not need for gaming par port / ser port, firewrite etc. and you need drivers for best gfx bards, make faster buss system, faster CPU. And so on."

well If they want to target the demo scene I dont think they want the young kids who havent done any computing before, but the older people with experience from computers over some time .... the people who want something different and powerful ...
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 9 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 17-Feb-2003 11:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (AdmV):
@AdmV

The thing is just that you refer to the conditions of your home market, while both the big customer's DTV-STB and (as it seems from this statement here) the Pegasos-STB aren't targeted at Germany, UK or USA, AFAIK.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 10 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 17-Feb-2003 12:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Senex):
Fair enough. But if you wanted to attack the markets in the countries stated, please supply why you have chosen an 'expensive' hardware platform to do it.

Thats what does not make sense.

Surely if you have an all singing, dancing, mega STB, you would want to see it in the US, UK, Europe.

If you don't have an all singing, dancing unit, selling at low cost might be ok.

Its all moot at least to me. If I were doing this I would have an ultra cheap X86 option and run linux, but some people want to do it the hard way I guess.

AdmV
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 11 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 12:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (AdmV):
> As for a set top box. Unless you can show me how this PPC based unit will be cheaper than other platforms, I cannot see it being a success.

Maybe one shouldn't see price as only criterium. They have an integrated solution, ie. not only do they own the hardware design but have an OS for it and developers that understand the OS perfectly. That puts them into the position to be very flexible. The price may be prohibitive for mass-market devices but there clearly are niches where price is secondary (such as point-of-sales terminals, where not millions are produced but rather hundreds or thousands).
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 12 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 17-Feb-2003 12:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
When your targetting Africa and other third world markets, price is going to be the major selling point. Second major selling point is what free/pirated software can the consumer get their hands on for it.

Dammy
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 13 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 13:03 GMT
I just love marketing! 8D

(except certain AI marketing that just pisses me off nowdays)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 14 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 17-Feb-2003 13:09 GMT
So what exactly do you get for $299/EURO299 and what hoops do you have to jump through to qualify? (Also, what DON'T you get.... processor?).

Straight answer please, no spin. ;-)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 15 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 17-Feb-2003 13:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (dammy):
No.....

I know it seems logical, when targetting a poor country, price is all important, but WRONG.

The fact is, when someone is so poor they don't have heat, or food, or electricity, price once again becomes of no concern, they can't buy it, they'll never buy it. Forget the continent of Africa as a whole, the 'market' of Africa, are those people in Africa, who have money and are not part of the desperately poor.

To find out what is of concern to them, you have to ask them, and you may find out they are not as price sensitive as you think.

A country I have visited, which by most measures is poor, is Ukraine, but your either astonishingly poor, or you are wealthy.

And you would be suprised how many of the people who are astonishingly poor, have nevertheless, paid $300USD for a leather jacket.

You have to know your market, you can't just assume. Most people who have made themselves wealthy, they know what they are doing. I wouldn't assume that Genesi's partners have made any mistake in selecting a pegasos based STB.

Yes, it seems to be expensive, but perhaps price will not be a problem for reasons THEY are aware about. Not being any kind of fan of the STB market, I don't think I will spend a lot of time speculating they have made a mistake...time will tell on that point.

I think, as far as the Amiga market is concerned.....Genesi is the best thing to happen in a long time....NEW OS, NEW PRODUCTS....ACTUAL DELIVERY, GOOD PRICING.....

its good.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 16 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (kjetil):
> the IEEE1275 is slow compeered with USB2.0 is outdated as far as I se it, even
> so the firmware interface is the standard that is used by the video-cams of the
> market

I think you're confusing the IEEE numbers. :) 1275 is Open Firmware, 1394 is FireWire.
BTW, FireWire 800 pushes stuff at 800 Mbps (USB2: 400 Mbps) and 1394b scales up to a couple of Gbps... That's over several hundred meters, and supplying more power for interface-powered devices than USB2. And so on...
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 17 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Hooligan/DCS on 17-Feb-2003 13:53 GMT
As a long time demoscener, I know the best way to attract demoscene for Pegasos... and that is to sponsor demoparties with funds, and maybe hardware. Lets face it, demoscene isn't little kids game anymore, some (big part) of the people involved now are professionals, working in areas which once were or is used in demo-culture. For example games- and mobilebusiness.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 18 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 13:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
BTW, since this is a thread about the Pegasos, which currently only has 400 Mbps IEEE1394 - that's not exactly "slow" compared to USB2's 480 Mbps.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 19 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 17-Feb-2003 14:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Anonymous):
AdmV:

Regarding price.

The Pegasos motherboard will be mass produced by Plexuscom in Taiwan where most PC motherboards are manufactured. This will result in a low price for the motherboard, maybe not right away.. but definately as sales and production ramp up.

Previously, the Pegasos was made in Germany in small quantities, hence the high cost of the board.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 20 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 14:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Darth_X):
... And you will spare the costs of windows!
;-)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 21 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Dan Andersson on 17-Feb-2003 15:25 GMT
Genesi wants to do something like this?

http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/cat_eng/produkte/boxfeatures.php4
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 22 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 17-Feb-2003 15:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Darth_X):
You assume too much.

You assume their new partner can bring down the cost.
You assume MAI will deliver
You assume PPC costs will be lower

I still see no reason to even buy one, even if it was cheap..

AdmV
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 23 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 15:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (kjetil):
>the IEEE1275 is slow compeered with USB2.0

If you mean IEEE1394 aka Firewire aka iLink etc. - no, it is not slow.
Check out http://www.xbitlabs.com/storage/usb20-fw/ where FW crushes USB2.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,883545,00.asp shows it to be
faster, too. Apple has the 800MBit FW now, so this will be even better.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 24 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 17-Feb-2003 15:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Dan Andersson):
Looks a bit like that, but with the opportunity to connect keyboard/mouse etc. to run Morphos. I guess the one you linked to are a bit more low spec than the Genesi one..?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I must admit that this is one of the best and most precise postings I have seen from Mr.Buck and that I like (most of) the ideas.

Now I am not a Genesi fanatic (as many of you allready know:-) and have had no intentions about buying their stuff (maybe a board NOT produced by DCE:) but if we end up with the Pegasos priced at $299 and the cheapest A1 (XE-G3/800mhz) at $850 I can see Hyperion and Eyetech get in big trouble.

Since I haven't seen Morphos in action since I visited the Gothenborg presentation I don't know how much it has improved. What I saw up there was not good enough so I will wait until OS4 arrives and I have a chance to do a comparison of both systems before I make up my mind.

As most of the other people waiting for a new system I can't wait forever, so hurry up Hyperion if you want a piece of the cake.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 25 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 16:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (AdmV):
No one wants STB's except for decoding thier cable/sat/etc television sources. If someone wants computer like features they go and buy a PC or Mac simple as that. Even if anyone did buy it , the TV and Sofa combo would soon get on their nerves as its hardly a suitable environment for computing tasks.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 26 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Darren Eveland on 17-Feb-2003 16:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Darth_X):
Even small quantities in Taiwan are expensive (AmigaOne). They really need to get the volumes up to make it cheap.

Darren
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 27 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 17-Feb-2003 16:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (MarkTime):
"NEW OS, NEW PRODUCTS....ACTUAL DELIVERY, GOOD PRICING....."

A reverse engineered OS which still lacks most vital functions that is required for a modern operating system of today, yesterday's mac hardware, not delivering to anyone except for certain "key developers", twice the money for half the performance of standard PC hardware...

Yes, that goes for the AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne too. The only difference is that the Amiga labeled solution is the continuation of a legacy hardware and OS platform while the other is supposed to be a new desktop alternative. I mean, if I would decide to jump ship, why would I go for an alternative that is just as far behind as the legacy platform that I just decided to leave? Makes no sense to me...

/me goes back to work on his Windows machine.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 28 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 17-Feb-2003 16:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (samface):
>twice the money for half the performance of standard PC hardware...

Someone else who can't see past megahertz ratings...
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 29 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 17-Feb-2003 16:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Troels Ersking):
>Now I am not a Genesi fanatic (as many of you allready know:-) and have had no
>intentions about buying their stuff (maybe a board NOT produced by DCE:) but
>if we end up with the Pegasos priced at $299 and the cheapest A1 (XE-
>G3/800mhz) at $850 I can see Hyperion and Eyetech get in big trouble.

Well even more I think when the G4 card is finally (for around 200eur as
announced earlier) available then it would be even more interesting to get a
Pegasos G4 1GHz for 499USD. But then other companies say that such prices can't
be right... ;) I guess we'll see soon ;-)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 30 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 17:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Troels Ersking):
>Pegasos priced at $299 and the cheapest A1 (XE-G3/800mhz) at $850

However, the cheapest A1 system does not cost $850.00 US, and the price you quoted for Peagasos is for the board only.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 31 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 18:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Lando):
">twice the money for half the performance of standard PC hardware...

Someone else who can't see past megahertz ratings..."

Sorry to say this ... but the X86's of today far outperform the PPC in terms of raw power per MHz. A couple of years ago you might have been right for thinking that the PPC outperformed a X86 of similar clockage but due to many factors ; one being the PPC's almost stale development , others being the X86's unstoppable advancements over the past couple years and the improvements in X86 chipsets and buses recently.

If I was going to make an STB ( which are pointless devices IMHO ) I'd use a transmeta : Cool running , Low power usuage and runs *desktop standard* code :)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 32 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Dan Andersson on 17-Feb-2003 18:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Troels Ersking):
"but if we end up with the Pegasos priced at $299 and the cheapest A1 (XE-G3/800mhz) at $850 I can see Hyperion and Eyetech get in big trouble."

Well, we are still to end up there since if I got this right the 299$ pegasos deal is just for "selected" phoenix developers that are in on the "quasi-sourceforge relationship with Genesi".

Showing the majority of the market on various newsites what the minority? (endusers) could get their dev-machines for is not that interesting. Perhaps it's pretty easy to get in on this devthing though.

And for something totally different... Any news about Amiga Inc. vs Genesi court case?
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 33 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 17-Feb-2003 18:40 GMT
Second attempt at getting an answer... ;-)

So what exactly do you get for $299/EURO299 and what hoops do you have to jump through to qualify? (Also, what DON'T you get.... processor?).

Straight answer please, no spin.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 34 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 17-Feb-2003 18:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Darrin):
>Straight answer please, no spin.

Mainboard and CPU (G3 600MHz I guess).
http://www.morphos-news.de/comments.php?lg=en&cpp=1&nid=216&page=17
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 35 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 17-Feb-2003 18:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Anonymous):
"If I was going to make an STB ( which are pointless devices IMHO ) I'd use a transmeta : Cool running , Low power usuage and runs *desktop standard* code :)"

Transmeta might be cool running, just like the G3 is.

But what do you mean by *desktop standard* code? That it will run windoze/Linux?

That is really irellevant when you have your own OS soloution like Genesi have with Morphos. Offcourse you could put windoze on it and make it run a lot of standard programs but think what windoze would add to the cost.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 36 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 17-Feb-2003 19:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (David Scheibler):
Cheers Dave. I see we'll have to wait until the show for full details.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 37 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 17-Feb-2003 19:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
"However, the cheapest A1 system does not cost $850.00 US, and the price you quoted for Peagasos is for the board only."

The price I quoted for the A1 was also mainboard only, taken from Vesalia's site:(

I thought the G3-600mhz was dropped and that only the XE version of the board would be sold from now on, my mistake.

Just checked the Eyetech site for the price of the G3-600mhz BOARD which compares to the mentioned Pegasos board.

Eyetech AmigaOne G3-600mhz: $675 incl. tax
Genesi Pegsos G3-600mhz(?): $299 incl...?

And IF Genesi release the G4-1000mhz for $499 as David mentions I can see Eyetechs AmigaOne sale drop to zero overnight..
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 38 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 17-Feb-2003 19:16 GMT
I think $299 for developers is a great initiative
to attract software to the platform. Now, let's
see if Amiga Inc. can offer a deal like this. This
really "ups" the competition level and demonstrates
how it really is good to have competing products
in order to lower the prices and improve quality.
I haven't seen any Amiga vendors give this kind of
break on hardware prices for years and I think
it's a great idea and will attract many developers.
Software sells hardware and it is a good idea to
appeal to this group of people in my opinion.

If OS4 became available for the Pegasos hardware
I could see it becoming the standard
(for Amiga users and possibly other alt OSes)
since the company seems to know what they are doing.
I can see it being very popular anyway if Amiga Inc. don't
"do something" soon.

I am an avid OS4 supporter but with the current lack of
information and updates about what Amiga Inc. are doing as
a business I am starting to wonder if we have another "Commodore"
(or worse) at the helm. This could just be unecessary worry on
the lack of communication but I am not getting a good feeling.
We will see if their attitude changes when OS4 and the
hardware are actually ready for sale. It is good to see Hyperion
developing the OS though, as I beleive them to be skilled
and this ensures the quality of OS4
(haven't used MorphOS so can't comment on the quality of it,
screens look nice though)...

I will consider getting one of these boards in order to do
MorphOS development. I will still want a machine that runs
OS4 too but maybe I will have to have both, or better
yet maybe OS4 can come to Pegasos. :) Again, we will know better
when OS4 is released and Amiga Inc.comes back to life again.
Things are definately getting interesting though and it's best
not to count anyone out this early. ;)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 39 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 19:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Troels Ersking):
Wrong if price was the only factor then eyetech would of had no sales from the start as the Aone haws always been more costly.

Plus the Peg does not run Aos4 & some ppl will want Aos4 no matter what.

Plus that price is for Dev ppl not the avg joe.

Plus you took something from UK & then coverted into $ wich will always be higher.

N64 cost $100 in USA but £100 in UK. when did $100 = £100 on the exchange rate.

Dont expect eyetech to give you something that the bigboys never could.

i would like to see someone from the UK tells me that they payed £185. for their pegasos.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 40 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 17-Feb-2003 20:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Lando):
It's not *just* about megahertz, I'm talking about the complete setup. Will I be able to stick my 8xAGP Radeon 9700 Pro, 512Mb DDR RAM at 400MHz, 1Gigabit network card, etc. in an AmigaOne? Nope. How much will I have to pay for the AmigaOne? Twice as much. See my point yet?
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 41 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by snotling on 17-Feb-2003 20:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Kelly Samel):
> Now, let's see if Amiga Inc. can offer a deal like this.

Ainc isn't in a position to offer squat. They don't have anything to offer. The OS is Hyperion's, and if I interpret what Ben Hermans and others have said correctly, Hyperion is the ones that will sell it too, only paying some royalty to Ainc for the "AmigaOS" trademark, sources and whatever other IP that's used.

> If OS4 became available for the Pegasos hardware I could see it becoming the
> standard (for Amiga users and possibly other alt OSes) since the company seems
> to know what they are doing.
> I can see it being very popular anyway if Amiga Inc. don't "do something"
> soon.

As long as there is a licensing and OS bundeling barrier for "allowed" hardware, AmigaOS won't run on eg. the Pegasos - payed for and legally, that is! It does seem like after Eyetech became totally irrelevant with the A1-1200 fiasco, that this company was still allowed to pull the strings due to ainc's lack of interest in the whole AmigaOS bit. There's no need to hand out charity to special "Amiga" hardware companies anymore, but that's what we're supposed to do if we want AmigaOS.
AmigaOS sold for installation on Pegasoses as well (to begin with...) would of course mean a larger install base and sales of AmigaOS - but things look like it's more important to let a "partner" of old sell overpriced Teron boards than it is to give AmigaOS a chance to at least a modest commercial comeback...

w00t - I see that today there are at least 899 others who agree with me: http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk/news.html :-D
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 42 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 20:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (samface):
>Will I be able to stick my 8xAGP Radeon 9700 Pro

Yes. It works also on AGP2x and can delivers something like 80-95% of it's maximum performance on (I think).

> 512Mb DDR RAM at 400MHz

Yes. But most likely 2-4Mb as L3.

>1Gigabit network card, etc. in an AmigaOne

Yes. It will perform in 100% speed on the PCI bus.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 43 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 20:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (priest):
And it will be an Amiga.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 44 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 20:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Anonymous):
LOL! Unbelieveable.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 45 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 20:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (priest):
Argh too tired ... forget the 512Mb part...


My point being... Peg or A1 are both superb amigaosclone/amigaos platforms when you remember that how far behind we have been in the past ~10 years.

We will be able to use almost all of the latest technologies. The price will be higher than on the x86 and it will not change. Take it or leave it.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 46 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 17-Feb-2003 21:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Troels Ersking):
"But what do you mean by *desktop standard* code? That it will run windoze/Linux?"

STB customers will want apps and they will want them yesterday , the only way of doing so would be to use windoze or linux in an embedded form , Linux PPC is far from perfect and PPC is expensive for performance + X86 delievers alot more bang for your buck.

The Transmeta suggestion was made because they are in a geeky way a cool member of the X86 family , but a low heat / power Intel or AMD solution would work just as well and the XBox proves this.

With the Xbox and PS2 aiming for the digital living room function (which is basically the same idea as a powerful STB ) this thing hasn't really got a chance.
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 47 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 17-Feb-2003 21:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Anonymous):
"Wrong if price was the only factor then eyetech would of had no sales from the start as the Aone haws always been more costly."

I never said price was the only factor, if it was I would be sitting by a VIA powered pc or some crap like that right now.

Anyway, I am quite certain there's a limit to how much people will want to pay more for a product equal to the Peg.

"Plus the Peg does not run Aos4 & some ppl will want Aos4 no matter what."

I want OS4 and I am well aware that the Peg won't run it. On the other hand, the Peg has Morphos ready (allmost?) now and if Hyperion doesn't speed things up there will be no market left apart from the relatively few that allready bought their A1.

"Plus that price is for Dev ppl not the avg joe."

Are there any avg. Joes left here:-) No I mean, we don't know the exact details about the offer yet, what does it take to qualify?

What the offer tells me is that the A1 is priced WAY to high OR Eyetech are paying way to much for it OR Genesi throws a LOT of money after each board?

"Plus you took something from UK & then coverted into $ wich will always be higher. N64 cost $100 in USA but £100 in UK. when did $100 = £100 on the exchange rate."

The Peg price was also mentioned as EUR 299 should I convert the A1 price to EUR or is that also non-comparable?

"Dont expect eyetech to give you something that the bigboys never could."

What do you mean by that?

"i would like to see someone from the UK tells me that they payed £185. for their pegasos.

But thats only $295, the offer said $299.. :)

My conclusion is that Eyetech are asking to much for their board, I know they have always done that but with this recent aggressive offer from Genesi it really shows.
It might be that Genesi have made this offer just to stir up some trouble for Eyetech and are only offering a limited quantity to their developers, but then I can ask wheres Eyetechs offer to developers and how does that compete..?
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 48 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 17-Feb-2003 22:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Troels Ersking):
Well it is pretty obvious strategy. When you have your competitor on the ropes
if you are serious about winning you deal him an uppercut. In this case its
a significant price cut - for a price war which Eyetech cannot afford. However
the risk is that Genesi does not have the cash reserves to subsidise for the takeup but that must have been factored in. The obvious point is for a short
term loss the value of a long term significant developer base offsets the loss
leader.

Frankly I think this will kill Eyetech, with the rumour that OS4 is on hold until Amiga Inc pays some bills I think we might have seen the death of the
next "official" AmigaOS.

Popcorn anyone?
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 49 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 17-Feb-2003 23:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (DaveP):
Well.. At least they have made this waiting interesting with all these distractions and entertainment. :)
Genesi comment about their near- and midterm strategy : Comment 50 of 80ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 17-Feb-2003 23:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (DaveP):
Well.. At least they (Ainc et all) have made this waiting interesting with all these distractions and entertainment. :)
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