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[News] alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitlyANN.lu
Posted on 18-Feb-2003 06:32 GMT by Senex (Edited on 2003-02-18 22:49:10 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)41 comments
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As Paul Qureshi reports on the Amiga-SA-ML this year's alt.WOA-show is postponed indefinitly: Evening all.

Just got word from HAUG that the alt.WoA (a.k.a. Hudderfeild) show has
been put off for now. Bad news indeed, I myself was rather looking
foreward to it.

I'll explain some of the reasoning why this decision was made.
Originally, the HAUG committee agreed to do the show with Amiga and
Eyetech, with Eyetech underwriting the cost. This was on the premise
that the AmigaOne would be ready for the show. In fact, Amiga wanted the
show to be called "The AmigaOne Show", not least to keep Thendic and the
Pegasos away.

However, last week Amiga made it clear that OS4 may well not be ready by
April 26th, the show date. They are still waiting for money from their
Microsoft deal, with which to pay Hyperion to work on OS4. In the mean
time, Hyperion must concentrate on other projects to bring money in.

They delay, in case you are interested, is supposedly because the
manufacturers of the cartridges that the Amiga Anywhere games are to
ship on has not actually manufactured any yet.

Anyway, needless to say when this came out many people were not happy.
Amiga, specifically Fleecy Moss, wanted the show to go ahead anyway. The
argument was that Linux would provide a good backup plan so even if OS4
was not done, things would not be a total wash out. However, it was
clear that those organising the show were only interested in OS4, and
didn't really want to put on a show for Linux people. Thus, HAUG decided
not to go ahead until OS4 was finished and actually ready to ship.

I must say, my oppinion of Fleecy Moss seems to fall a bar every time I
speak to him. I completly understand the Hudderfield crew's point of
view. I can't speak for the other involved user groups, but WOASE 2003
is also rather dependent on OS4 being available, because after last year
it's clear that without it any UK show will fail.

Time to jack it all in?

Paul
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 1 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 18-Feb-2003 06:06 GMT
"In fact, Amiga wanted the show to be called "The AmigaOne Show", not
least to keep Thendic and the Pegasos away."

Well, I suppose Bill Buck would just have rented a room in the next
building with a big poster "Amiga TOO show". ;-)
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 2 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 06:24 GMT
This is quite interesting, as well as the recent interview with Thomas Frienden:

http://os.amiga.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1583


Selected quotes:

"It's *not* our product. We're just developing."

"I'm a core developer of OS4. I'm working for low pay for long stretches of time, hadn't had a vacation in nearly two years, hadn't had a completely free weekend for at least one year..."

"There's no real administration involved in Hyperion..."

"believe me that I am not very happy with what Amiga does from time to time... However, AmigaOS is still theirs, we are only developing it."

"We never made any excuses..."

"Firm deadlines are science fiction, anyway. "
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 3 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 18-Feb-2003 06:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Senex):
How about Genesi sponsor the Show. Eyetech and Hyperion are welcome.

We would be honored to do so.

We are "Amiga" too. Why not?

Sincerely,

R&B
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 4 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Joël EHRET on 18-Feb-2003 06:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (bbrv):
bill raquel...

that's a very good idea... and it give the WOASE crew the opportunity to keep the event on date. and the event can be very interesting, even without OS4... The more sponsor there is the best the show will be...

JOEL
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 5 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 18-Feb-2003 07:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (bbrv):
Good idea!
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 6 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Jon on 18-Feb-2003 08:14 GMT
Why not?
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 7 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 18-Feb-2003 09:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Joël EHRET):
I can't speak for the organisers, but I think enthusiasm for another turning alt- WoA into another Pegasos show is slim. But hey, you guys can make the offer anyway.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 8 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 18-Feb-2003 09:08 GMT
" HAUG decided not to go ahead until OS4 was finished and actually ready to ship."

Genesi sponsoring the show wont matter or help if OS4 is the thing they want...
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 9 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Max on 18-Feb-2003 09:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (catohagen):
" " HAUG decided not to go ahead until OS4 was finished and actually ready to ship."

Genesi sponsoring the show wont matter or help if OS4 is the thing they want..."

Well if they really want that, there will be no alt.WOA show in 2003 then. Maybe in 2004?
I'd advice them to not wait for OS 4 for this show. If they want can do a "AmigaOS 4 launching show" later when AmigaOS 4 will be ready.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 10 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 18-Feb-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Max):
The point is that another Amiga show without OS4 would just be a repeat of WoASE last November, and since anything that was to be seen has already been seen at that show, the interest for an alt-WoA show without anything new would be minimal. It takes a lot of effort and organisation to put on a good show, and I think the organisers feel it just wouldn't be worth the while.

To have a show you must have something TO show. The Pegasos betatester systems just aren't news any more, and the expected turnout would be low. This means other vendors (not just Eyetech and/or Hyperion) will most likely not bother to turn up, which in turn lowers turnout even more. The first showing of OS4 would be a big crowd puller (in the Amiga sense of "big"), but the umpteenth showing of Pegasos betatester systems? I don't think so.

Note this is not a comment on the relative merits of either system, or the quality of the operating systems they are intended to run with.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 11 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Radfoo on 18-Feb-2003 11:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
Not seen that interview before, not looking so good now is it.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 12 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 11:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Radfoo):
It's looking pretty bad right now, you could say.

Things sound as though they are on a financial knife-edge.

Things have been pretty bad before though but Amigans could sure do with some good fortune right now.

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 13 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Radfoo on 18-Feb-2003 11:39 GMT
The reasoning seems a bit weird, I thought the whole point of the deal with Hyperion was that OS4 was not dependent on Amiga Inc. at all. That way, Hyperion were guaranteed a return on sales?!
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 14 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 18-Feb-2003 11:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Sam Smith):
>Things have been pretty bad before though but Amigans could sure do with some >good fortune right now.

yeah the aos reimplmentation and improvement MorphOS and a PPC MB developed by Amiga Developers! YAY

an x86 re-implentation of aos .. open sourc!

The Amiga is DEAD!
Long live Pegasos
LONG live MOS!
Long live AROS!
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 15 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 11:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Radfoo):
As I understood it the protection in the deal is if AInc. goes bust. If this happens then Hyperion can still sell the product.

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 16 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 18-Feb-2003 11:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Sam Smith):
Maybe IF Ainc went bust, Hyperion and Genesi + Morphos could finally work together, if only with friendly competition.

A meetings of minds, codes, products, and yay, at last, something for the end user to celebrate....

And then I awakened..
AdmV
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 17 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (cheesegrate):
If Amiga Inc. went bust then at least the story would be over and we could conclude this little chapter.

I wonder if they will do the professional thing and issue a statement - or are we in for the continual 'fingers in ears' mode again?

I wonder if AInc realise how much damage they are doing to their potential customer base by avoiding to post some form of update?

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 18 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Radfoo on 18-Feb-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Sam Smith):
Oh, I see.

If Hyperion realy do need this money from Amiga Inc. I fear OS4 is doomed.

Amiga dont seem to have enough money to buy a few t-shirts, how are they going to pay Hyperion? Can one Microsoft game be worth that much money?
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 19 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (AdmV):
It depends who buys what is left of AInc. But I cannot think that they will be worth very much as they have no proven products to sell.

SO I wouldn't rule this out. If the price is low enough perhaps Genesi will buy them.

We are getting ahead of ourselves a little as AInc. still has a chance!

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 20 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 12:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Radfoo):
Sales are sales.

Even if the carts can be produced this may not necessarily mean that they have been sold to any customers. A worst case scenario I know.

We really should give AInc. a chance to issue a public statement before we totally write them off.

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 21 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 18-Feb-2003 12:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Radfoo):
@Radfoo:

> The reasoning seems a bit weird, I thought the whole point of the deal
> with Hyperion was that OS4 was not dependent on Amiga Inc. at all.

Well, zacman speculated the following regarding this on amiga.org:

-----8<--------

Well that was the case when Hyperion still had
ThridParty projects that gave them a little money.
However it's likely that Hyperion can't afford to work
on OS4 for several months and pay all their full time
developers (3) with own cash. Therefore they have
to do Thirdparty projects which then delays OS4.
Therefore it *could be* that Hyperion asked Amiga
Inc. "Ok, if you want OS4 out "soon", pay us, or it'll
get delayed even more". Maybe Amiga Inc. has then
accepted this new deal, but because Amiga Inc. isn't
able to pay them Hyperion has to delay OS4. I'd like
to remind you that for the very same reason (Amiga
Inc. not paying H&P) OS4 has already failed one
time. Wouldn't wonder if history repeats.

On the other hand Mr Gutjahr said that someone of
Hyperion informed him that OS4 is progressing well
today, so that he comes to the impression that
Amiga Inc. is telling BS. SO I guess it's best just to
wait for Cebit and the OS4 version that Hyperion
announced to show there. March 12th-19th will be
an interesting week :)
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 22 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Radfoo on 18-Feb-2003 12:27 GMT
Yep,

Although painful, we just have to wait and see.

arrgggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 23 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 18-Feb-2003 12:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Senex):
I don't think the semi-official reason for the portponement of the Alt-WoA show should be taken at face value. The whole idea that OS4 somehow depends on money from Microsoft is laughable.

Most likely it is either a case of Hyperion needing to concentrate on paying work first, in order to continue funding development, or they have encountered technical difficulties that may take a while to resolve. Either way, it's easier to blame Microsoft for the delays.

Whatever the reason, I think the HAUG team have taken the right decision.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 24 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 18-Feb-2003 12:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Sam Smith):
"I wonder if AInc realise how much damage they are doing to their potential customer base by avoiding to
post some form of update? "

Nobody would believe anything they said anyway.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 25 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 12:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Don Cox):
It's a pretty poor state of affairs when Amiga Inc. has treated its customer base so badly that people don't even trust them anymore. They havaen't even released anything of note yet!

Have we found a new Commodore?

Fleecy had such good intentions too. I guess 'the road to hell' and all that...

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 26 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 18-Feb-2003 13:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Sam Smith):
Well.. In my books Ainc lost their credibility during summer-fall of 2001. I did not trust them then and I definitely don't trust them NOW.

Good thing is, that in their current condition it can't stick together much longer. Sad part are those people who still belive them. It'll hurt.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 27 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 13:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (JoannaK):
It already 'hurts' to see AI becoming another Commodore.

I hope that some sort of sensible official statement from AI is forthcoming otherwise this could well be 'it'.

---
Sam
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 28 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 18-Feb-2003 13:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (JoannaK):
>Good thing is, that in their current condition it can't stick together much
>longer. Sad part are those people who still belive them. It'll hurt.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. It is quite likely that Amiga Inc. will manage to stay up in some kind of shape or form - if not more than doing some PDA software with a skeleton crew. And it is pretty likely that Hyperion will get OS4 out the door sooner or later, as I'm sure Eyetech will get AmigaOne-XE into the hands of the "masses". So, I'll doubt it will all come apart any time soon. If it is to end, I guess it will all just fade away slowly...

But, yeah, in any case this is a far cry from the future we have been painted by Amiga during the last few years. Even the Microsoft deal that was touted as a "done deal" with plenty of money pouring in, is now dragging on. Amiga themselves have become pretty much irrelevant where anything really "Amiga" is concerned and it remains to be seen what Hyperion/Eyetech can come up with. I'm pretty sure they'll deliver something sooner or later, but what...

Genesi, on the other hand, seems fresh and interesting in comparison. They have the technology (both OS and hardware), the momentum, and they seem to have the financial backing to make it go somewhere. We've seen too much to really believe in anything until it gets there, but even in this regard Genesi have plenty to show. While they have been painted as the underdog all along, they are growing stronger every day and their competition is, well, not.

Lets see how it plays out.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 29 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 18-Feb-2003 21:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Bill Hoggett):
You British Amigans must be doing great if you can blow off an annual show
because OS 4 isn't ready. In the USA I'd be worried it would be dead for
good, as Amiga Expo may be.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 30 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 18-Feb-2003 21:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Senex):
Senex typed:

> @Radfoo:

>> The reasoning seems a bit weird, I thought the whole point of the deal
>> with Hyperion was that OS4 was not dependent on Amiga Inc. at all.

> Well, zacman speculated the following regarding this on amiga.org:

>> However it's likely that Hyperion can't afford to work
>> on OS4 for several months and pay all their full time
>> developers (3) with own cash. Therefore they have
>> to do Thirdparty projects which then delays OS4.

Well, that is (as you say) only speculation. It doesn't make sense to
me. Amiga Inc. used to say a similar thing, that DE was just to make the
big bucks which they would then plow into OS4. ;) But the opposite was
true, they took the money from 3.5 and 3.9 and the coupon and t-shirt
scams and put it into their other projects.

My speculation, and I think its more backed up by what's been said in
public, is that Hyperion gets a share of the money from these Teron
boards Eyetech sells, OS 4 or no. They have been doing "presales" as
in the case of the EarlyBird promotion where they explicitly promised
"free OS4 when available." Hyperion wouldn't sign off on that IMO unless
they were in on the action.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 31 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 18-Feb-2003 22:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Bill Hoggett):
Bill, are you saying Fleecy wouldn't of said that? I don't think the organizers of the show (big Amiga Inc. fanatics) would lie about such things. It sounds like something Amiga Inc. would say actually.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 32 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 18-Feb-2003 22:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Daniel Miller):
Daniel the US shows have been dead for 10 years really, they are mostly irc get togethers in my experience (which is fine).
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 33 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 18-Feb-2003 23:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Daniel Miller):
Yes the Amiga is still quite strong in the UK. Of course its nowhere near as strong as in Germany but I guess we're the second biggest market. There are three Amiga users in the place I work (including me) which is out of 200 people.

I don't think postponing this one show will mean the end of Alt-WOA for good. At least I hope not - WOA-SE is too far for me to travel because I don't drive so the only show I can get too is Alt-WOA.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 34 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Capeview on 18-Feb-2003 23:43 GMT
Is this another Microsoft agrees deal to pay big money, waits for small time company with much better products than microsoft ever produced to go under and then Microsoft offers to buy out company and pay debts and gain all the superb products to make it's products look better???
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 35 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 18-Feb-2003 23:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Capeview):
Maybe. Except AInc doesn't exactly have a lot of great products. And if Microsoft really wanted to buy Amiga, they had many chances to do so over the last ten years :) Maybe they were just waiting for the price to come down a bit.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 36 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 19-Feb-2003 00:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (MIKE):
No Mike, I'm not suggesting the HAUG guys are lying (although it should be pointed out that the story reported above is not their official explanation). However, I don't put it past the people above them to - err... - elevate certain issues to a higher importance while supressing information about anything that would be truly damaging.

Let's just say that I think someone in that chain of information is not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. ;)
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 37 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 19-Feb-2003 01:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (MIKE):
Mike, Amiga Expo last year wasn't exactly sensational but it was better than
dead! Slightly anyway!
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 38 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 19-Feb-2003 01:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Lando):
There's always Planet Zed, ahaha!
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 39 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by tonya on 19-Feb-2003 10:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Daniel Miller):
yet again, i wonder how all of u can talk so highly about all of this....
without KNOWING or proving anything, how many times before has there been a statement that proves you wrong in scenario's like this? .
either prove it or shut up, as i know 1 thing for sure... all this "FUD" or whatever you want ot call it will backfire on you guys one day, and that is the day when we will keep the QUOTES comming, or maybe we will just be happy and quiet and play with the os?

imho this is just an excuse to get the time to pass, i mean..posting here does make the time fly and it seems alot of you guys do it just because of that and really doesnt prove anything except for a counter strike later on or a backfire which will slam ya into the wall.

but then again i am familiar with the OPEN sPEECh society.
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 40 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 19-Feb-2003 12:32 GMT
Good move to postpone the show. Without any change in situation
since the WOASE, the show would be a complete facsimile of the
half-attended aforementioned event.

we have Pegasos (with April 2), we have MorphOS (slightly updated)

we have AmigaONE G3-SE and AmigaONE-XE, running Linux now.

I think we want to see the 'next step' for real...and not
just as a hypothetical vision. we dont want a Linux show...
people can take their boards to a local Linux show
if they want to show it running PowerPC Linux.

it takes far more strength and conviction to stop an event based
on decisions that have to be thought through. well done guys! lets
see Alt-WOA coming back in a stronger format when things have
evolved. and please, dont call it AmigaONE show - lets have an open
playing field. we're not Windoze drones to be driven like Minter sheep
through a haze of M$ propaganda

alan
alt.WOA 2003 postponed indefinitly : Comment 41 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by FOREMATT on 21-Feb-2003 13:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Bill Hoggett):
As one of the "other" retailers concerned, I have to say that the cancelled show is quite a concern. We have been attending these small User Group shows since the end of the big WOA shows. In fact we were one of the first dealers to attend one before the likes of Eyetech or Amiga Inc decided they were big enough to show an interest.

None of these shows ever had an OS4 or an AmigaOne to buy. Although this is certainly an attraction for most people (and attendance has been falling accordingly), it may come as a shock to learn that some people do actually turn up and use the opportunity to look at and buy the software and hardware peripherals that ARE still being produced (Subway/Highway/FXPaint/Quake2/Software Tycoon/Tales of Tamar) to name a few. For some people this is the only time they get to see us and the other dealers to buy these. Not everybody is on the net or likes buying on it! As well as a chance to get some much needed help and information from dealers and of course the User Groups who put alot of effort into helping and educating people.

I will be honest and tell you that the 2 UK shows a year make up a substantial amount of our annual turnover (which is less than most of you would get out of bed for!). I will probably get flamed for this but as the show has been cancelled we have put on sale at www.forematt.co.uk to shift some of the stuff we were expecting to sell at the show, as well as having to look at non-Amiga items for the first time since starting the company. My personal concern is that now that a second show has been cancelled (Kickstart was first to go) this may give the message to the "amiga public" that it is all over and they may not then attend when(if) it does go ahead in the future.

This is by no means a dig at the organisers as I know that the decision was based on several factors beyond their control and I am sure it was a hard one to make. I am just telling you like it is for one of the handful of Amiga dealers still hanging on to this sharply decling market.

Oh, somebody mentioned that the Amiga market was still strong in the UK, please verify this to my bank manager, thank you.

John Wilson
Owner
FOREMATT Home Computing
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