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[News] SciTech Software Inc. announcementANN.lu
Posted on 18-Feb-2003 21:36 GMT by Gareth Knight195 comments
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SciTech Software Inc. and Hyperion Entertainment VOF are pleased to announce they have enterered into a strategic partnership which will see SciTech's SNAP(tm) technology integrated into AmigaOS 4.x which is currently under development by Hyperion for PPC based systems.

Click here to read the press release

SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 1 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 18-Feb-2003 20:56 GMT
If i read this correctly, OS4 will have support for 176 different Graphics chipsets, although only in 2D. but proberly with some sort of 2D accell....

Good news indeed.

Site note: i remember Scitech from the good old dos days, and there product where back then, higly reliable and pure auality, if my memory serves me right,. Good move hyperion.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 2 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 18-Feb-2003 20:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Lasse Bodilsen):
Sounds pretty good for an OS that doesn't get developed ATM. :-D

Don't know the SNAP system, will just take a look at their site...

2D support for almost 180 diffrent chipsets....Nice!
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 3 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Marcus Sundman on 18-Feb-2003 21:00 GMT
> SciTech and Hyperion are set to broaden their cooperation to encompass
> 3D graphics support

I bet it will take years to add 3D support for all the major gfx cards. :-(
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 4 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 21:02 GMT
Terrific news -- kick ass.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 5 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 18-Feb-2003 21:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Marcus Sundman):
We are also working with SciTech in the area of 3D drivers but obviously we will focus on the latest chipsets and chipsets for which we have documentation.

OTOH, for many customers and especially for embedded use, 2D support is all what is required.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 6 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by gz on 18-Feb-2003 21:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Nice move :)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 7 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 18-Feb-2003 21:07 GMT
An excellent solution to the problem of basic 2D driver support; SciTech's drivers were well-respected in the OS/2 community, where they served to replace buggy or nonexistant built-in and manufacturer support.

SNAP sounds buzzwordy at first glance, but http://www.scitechsoft.com/products/embedded/sdk_home.html clarifies a bit; of interest is "Single certified binary for each supported device [independent of OS]," which suggests a modern reworking of the concept of BIOS graphics... sort of. I need to get the docs loading, which requires a walk to a machine with Java installed. ;)

[Or, since I just had to repost around the moderation... Can you enlighten us, Ben?]
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 8 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 18-Feb-2003 21:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
SNAP will be used as a monitor driver for P96.

The P96 API is not ditched in any way.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 9 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark] on 18-Feb-2003 21:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Excellent :-D
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 10 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 18-Feb-2003 21:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
The SciTech x86emu gfx BIOS initialisation you put in PPC/U-boot looks nifty, and so does this.

But is SNAP supposed to be implemented in AmigaOS *4.0*, or a later revision (the PR only says "4.x")? If this decision was just made, like the press release makes it look like, then a release of 4.0 can't be all that imminent, can it? We're talking about OS/HAL fundamentals here, and this looks like a U-turn.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 11 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 18-Feb-2003 21:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Freaking brilliant if you ask me :-)

small question though: will there be any kind of 2D acceleration for any of the chipsets supported by the SNAP driver?
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 12 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 18-Feb-2003 21:21 GMT
Nice! I didnt think there would be any major announcements about the OS fundamentals this late in the game.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 13 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 18-Feb-2003 21:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Lasse Bodilsen):
Absolutely.

These drivers are fully accelerated.

In some case they even beat the "official" drivers.

http://www.scitechsoft.com/snap_test_results/snap_test_home.html
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 14 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Marcus Sundman on 18-Feb-2003 21:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
> I just had to repost around the moderation

Would it really be so hard for the ANN webmaster to fix this bug?! Just modify the scripts so that the article ID doesn't change.
It is very annoying when you can't reload an article or post a comment because "the article no longer exists" (which means that the ID of the article changed because of moderation)!
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 15 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 21:36 GMT
This is ultra good news and a shot in the arm for supporters of OS4 in the light of today's earlier blip.

Once again Hyperion come to the rescue.

Heros. Excellent work guys. :))

---
Sam
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 16 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 18-Feb-2003 21:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hi. Nice to see you too.. You have been so silent about real important issues.

Could you give us some real INFO about OS4 Status instead of announcing yet another Paper-partnership that will leade to anything?
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 17 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 18-Feb-2003 21:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@ Ben

"These drivers are fully accelerated.
In some case they even beat the "official" drivers."

Just read that.. Sounds VERY promising. What version of OS4 will it be in from 4.0 or later?

Ohh and btw: when will OS4 be ready ;-)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 18 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 18-Feb-2003 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (JoannaK):
Sure, a paper partnership.

Let me tell you one thing Johan, SciTech is a very serious and professional company which does not conclude "paper partnerships".
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 19 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 21:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (JoannaK):
This is a little uncalled for. Hyperion is not in the habit of announcing worthless deals. Perhaps you are thinking of some other company.

This is good news from a decent company.

---
Sam
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 20 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 18-Feb-2003 21:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Well.. When can we then expect to see these glorious drivers working on Amiga-one? They are not made for PPC youknow? That announced list is for OS/2. An abandoned X86 OS that has been dying a way due lack of official support and decent user base.

Apparently only real reason for announcig this was to get your followers happy and
get another good cause to delay OS4 even further.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 21 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on 18-Feb-2003 21:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben,

This news really made my day. Thank you very much for your hard work to bring us OS4.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 22 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 18-Feb-2003 21:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (JoannaK):
Its not that I find your questions unreasonable but with your constantly annoying attitude I would understand Ben if he chooses not to answer you.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 23 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 18-Feb-2003 21:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (JoannaK):
Johan, I suggest that you read the press-release carefully.

You obviously have not, otherwise you would not post this nonsense.

SciTech will take care of porting SNAP to Linux PPC, we will take care of having SNAP run as a monitor driver for P96.

Next thing I know you are going to tell me Hyperion doesn't know how to port software from one architecture to another and from one operating system to another :)

It's clear you are upset because the OS 4 project is still very much alive and kicking and ahead of MorphOS in quite a few areas.

Not my problem.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 24 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on 18-Feb-2003 21:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (JoannaK):
http://www.scitechsoft.com/docs/snap_ga/notoc/index.html

"SciTech SNAP drivers are source code portable between different microprocessor platforms, and the binary drivers are operating system portable within a particular microprocessor family. Hence the Intel x86 drivers can work on any 386+ CPU with any 32-bit operating system or environment supported on that CPU."

There you go. :-)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 25 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 21:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
You "managed to miss" the important questions she wrote:

1) Will this be available for OS4.0 (or later versions)?

2) Is OS4.0 going to be released anytime soon?

BTW, I think this was a good thing. But at some point you should set some kind of final specification and *deliver* that, before moving on with new ideas. I think that is more what JoannaK meant ...
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 26 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 18-Feb-2003 21:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Next thing I know you are going to tell me Hyperion doesn't know how to port
>software from one architecture to another and from one operating system to
>another :)

Obviously not, otherwise you had ported some Mac games in time... :)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 27 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 18-Feb-2003 22:00 GMT
It is a nice announcement, and hopefully it will play out allright. A nice idea to have sort of virtualized drivers for hardware.

But I fail to see the hype, it is still just an announcement. Is it on anything more than paper yet? Will it be in OS 4.0 or come later? Also, more serious issues are still going unaddressed, such as what is the status of OS 4.0? Will the CeBIT launch date be met? What is happening to local Amiga shows such as alt.WOA in light of slow progress and lack of solid news?

Ben, you are indeed here again and we welcome you. Please, may I ask that you consider using this opportunity to address these questions. I'm sure people would appreciate it very much. No need to give us dates, but perhaps a few words on the development status of OS4? It would be nice to hear how SNAP fits in with OS 4.0 also, as queried above.

Thanks.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 28 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by tired on 18-Feb-2003 22:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"the OS 4 project is still very much alive and kicking and ahead of
MorphOS in quite a few areas."

well .... show us , please :)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 29 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 18-Feb-2003 22:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (JoannaK):
There's no need for this aggression. No-one has used this announcement for any excuses for the delay of OS4.

You usually make worthwhile comments - I just wish you take a little bit of the unnecessary venom out of them. Otherwise they just look like an attempt to start a slagging match with no real worth.

---
Sam
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 30 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 18-Feb-2003 22:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@Ben Hermans

Your "Johan" is actually a girl, it's *Joanna* you know. Hope you simply misread
and were not trying to insult her or anything. Your announcment sounds
interesting and useful. I only hope this does not mean any delay of AOS4. That
is the rumor that's been flying around recently, and what people like Joanna
really want to know the answer to, she simply cannot put forward the question in
any way that invites an answer...

@Joanna

While I agree with your sentiment that it would be nice to know what version of
AOS4x this will be available in, and if this is indicative of any delay of
delivery of the new OS, your attitude stinks.I don't know if it's your intention
or not, but that arrogant edge of yours NEVER go away. You're free to have
whatever opinions you have, but - and I'll ask in a friendly tone - will you
*please* ease up on that attitude of yours?
.
SlimJim
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 31 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 18-Feb-2003 22:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
> 1) Will this be available for OS4.0 (or later versions)?
> 2) Is OS4.0 going to be released anytime soon?

Kind of a summary of my questions in my earlier comment #10, thanks. :)

Is this for *4.0*, and if so off the top of your head and a rough estimate, Ben, what kind of delays are we looking at now?
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 32 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 18-Feb-2003 22:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben, a small OT follow-up if I may...

>Johan,

May I ask why do you keep calling Joanna Johan? I'm sure you are aware the latter is a male name (here at least), whereas the former is not?

>It's clear you are upset because the OS 4 project is still very much alive
>and kicking and ahead of MorphOS in quite a few areas.

Also a quick note on this, I do think this assumption people have that Joanna is a MorphOS supporter is pretty much unwarranted. We're all looking forward to actually seeing your OS4 here, and then making up our minds. MorphOS we can already judge for ourselves. Its by no means perfect, but it is for us to see.

AFAIK Joanna is yet to buy anything other than a Party Pack, so lets leave it at that for the time being. I hear she is tempted by the Pegasos discount though... if and when those become available (in all fairness).

Okay, enough standing up for friends for tonight. :-)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 33 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 22:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
The OS4 project might be "alive" and "kicking", only a few people
would know anything about that. And OS4 might very well be ahead of
MorphOS in some areas. It *should* be. OS4 is not being developed from
scratch, so you should have a lot "for free"!

But I am typing this on VoyagerPPC running on MorphOS. I could not
type it using OS4. Could you?

MorphOS still has some "gaps". But its completely usable
and available. Availability is IMHO the most important issue ATM, and
here MorphOS still has the lead.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 34 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 18-Feb-2003 22:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Johan? well.. apparently those earlier attempts to insult from you have not been accidents either. So sad.. Try innovating something more creative :)

Well.. if your inability to read/write my name right is your only remaining excuse for your incapability to answer my questions of your long ago promiced products I have to say you are in really poor position.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 35 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 18-Feb-2003 22:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> Availability is IMHO the most important issue ATM, and
> here MorphOS still has the lead.

This is true.Good thing I'm not that desperate.

(And by that I don't mean MOS is bad in any way, but that *I*
can afford to wait until both are out and not just buy the first
best thing. The computing power already on my desk keeps me afloat for
now at least.)
.
SlimJim
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 36 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 18-Feb-2003 22:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Seehund):
Are you sure Hyperion put this non GPL x86 emu into GPL UBoot ? I can
hardly believe in such an illegal action. After all, there is a real
lawyer driving the company.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 37 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by SimplePPC on 18-Feb-2003 22:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
MOS did have a 3 year head start
and lots of OS3.x manuals ofcourse :)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 38 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 22:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Spooky, the Linux performance references aren't links...

Scitech supports basically all the same stuff as Linux PPC though, so that will be a comfort to those who've bought AmigaOne hardware without waiting for an OS4 supported video card list. There are a few differences but they're mostly not relevant (can't fit a TVGA8900C to an AmigaOne so it doesn't matter that SciTech don't support it)

What happens to the people who were supposed to be providing 2D support for OS4 ?
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 39 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 18-Feb-2003 22:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Janne Sirén):
Are a you a girl to, Janne?
Around here Janne is a girl name, short variant of Johanne :)

I too mistakingly took JoannaK as yet another Fin with a female sounding name, till I learnt better.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 40 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 22:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Nicolas Sallin):
The license is compatible as far as I can see, when distributed together the GPL terms are more strict, when you remove the x86emu you have something which can continue to be distributed under its original terms. Scitech are quite comfortable with this, and I presume the UBoot guys checked the legal compatability.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 41 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 18-Feb-2003 22:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Nicolas Sallin):
Maybe I didn't word my post clearly by saying "put in".
At least the x86emu code ("XFree86 compatible", "BSD style" license) is included in the U-Boot CVS and it's linked to. I'll leave the usual battle and hair splitting to the usual suspects, I'm on thin ice when it comes to expert knowledge about all the GPL intricacies... :)

Those interested can browse around in http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/u-boot/u-boot/board/MAI/bios_emulator/scitech/
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 42 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 18-Feb-2003 22:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Anonymous):
Stop replying while I'm typing and stuff! ;)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 43 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark] on 18-Feb-2003 22:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Nicolas Sallin):
@Nicolas Sallin

Don't post such ... if you don't know what you are writing about ... read this:

# Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute, and sell this software and
# its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
# provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
# both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
# supporting documentation, and that the name of the authors not be used
# in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software
# without specific, written prior permission. The authors makes no
# representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose.
# It is provided "as is" without express or implied warranty.

Quote from http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/u-boot/u-boot/board/MAI/bios_emulator/scitech/src/biosemu/makefile?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 44 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 18-Feb-2003 22:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]):
Is Snap based on other GPL projects too?
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 45 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Feb-2003 23:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (SlimJim):
This is a little off topic (sorry for that), but I just wanted to
clarify that my choise was not made out of desperation at all. I like
Genesi's visions and future path, and I do believe they have both
financial strength and a strong momentum to actually get there. Genesi
has proven their commitment and that they actually can live up to
their promises and actually deliver. I do not see this to the same
degree from the alternatives (A1+OS4, Aros). I think the alternatives
are weaker and has a more vague future (if one at all).
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 46 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Marktime on 18-Feb-2003 23:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
paraphrase: 'for embedded use 2d is all thats is required'

Yes, absolutely true, and for systems without a display you don't even need 2d....

thanks captain obvious....now in the Amiga market 3d is quite important, glad you are working on that in some vague undefined way.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 47 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark] on 18-Feb-2003 23:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (David Scheibler):
Nope ... doesn't look like it ;O)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 48 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 18-Feb-2003 23:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
>Are a you a girl to, Janne?

No, I'm not. Janne is a pretty popular male name here. Jenna would be female. As would Jenni. But I'm aware of the fact that Janne is a female name in at least Norway. You're from there? It is a male name in Sweden, I believe.

>Around here Janne is a girl name, short variant of Johanne :)

Our version of Johanne is Johanna I guess. Haven't heard of any Johanne's here (Johannes on the other hand is a male name). Johanna is a female name here.

Ouch, that must be confusing for "foreign" readers. :-)

>I too mistakingly took JoannaK as yet another Fin with a female sounding
>name, till I learnt better.

No harm done, I'm sure. These are interesting details to discuss. Oh, what would we be without Internet. :-)
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 49 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 18-Feb-2003 23:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]):
I just ask because someone told me that the GPL version has comments in the
source code that parts of SNAP are based on other GPL projects. I didn't
download the sources so I don't know. Maybe they got the OK from all other
authors I don't know. Or maybe they use completly different methods in the
commercial version. That would be interesting to know.
SciTech Software Inc. announcement : Comment 50 of 195ANN.lu
Posted by Max on 18-Feb-2003 23:22 GMT
Well it's clearly a marketing oriented announcement to try to keep people attracted by OS 4 so they'll wait for it.

Indeed, supporting 176 different GFX chips today is completely useless for a desktop OS. Just see MacOS X, it support only 2 different branded chips (ATI and NVidia) and it's clearly enough. Even on Windows, drivers for other chips than NVidia or ATI ones are here for compatibility issues with rather old gfx cards (I'm speaking for the Windows XP Family edition) and are not progressing anymore.

So yes that's garanty OS 4 to support ATI and NVidia chips (maybe as I doubt that NVidia gave anything else than binary elements to Scitech, so that their drivers are only working under x86). In that way it's a good news. But I don't think it'd be clever for Hyperion to waste their time in porting the 100+ others chips drivers to OS 4.

They should rather economise this time to have OS 4 in a customer usable state. Should I remind all of you that we still haven't seen any FULL (i.e running fully with ExecSG) AmigaOS 4 working? Even not on an Amiga 1200 or 4000 with a PPC card!

For me it's clear that this announcement is just to make people keep the faith in OS 4, nothing more. It's now quite obvious that OS 4 will not be ready for March (as officially the alt.WOA show scheduled for April was cancelled because OS 4 will not be ready at this time) and I don't think we'll be able to see a good quality retail version before the end of the year.

For people who are enough patient to wait so long, than I hope for you that OS 4 will worth this long waiting time. Personally I'm fed up to wait and about all these marketing announcements. I don't believe anymore in OS 4, I mean in a quality OS 4. I'm sure they'll be able to make a working OS 4, but I don't believe it'll worth the wait which seem to be needed until its availability. Don't forget that the computer world continue to progress while Hyperion is still trying to have a working OS 4.
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