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[Web] Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2ANN.lu
Posted on 23-Mar-2003 18:56 GMT by Derf193 comments
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AmigaWorld now has their 2nd week Q&A session with Fleecy Moss up and on line.

Read about it here.

Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 101 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 25-Mar-2003 14:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 99 (dammy):
Well, if you don't care for the Amiga label, then why do you care wether I label you as a part of the *Amiga* community or not? Also, why would be be such an evil thing to be labeled as a part of another (could have but didn't mention the M-word :-P) community? I mean, it's just a name, right?
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 102 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Amiga User (Not Blind) on 25-Mar-2003 14:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (samface):
Of course Fleecys questions are news which should have been posted in here fully instead of a link to Amigaincworld which is cleary looks like just a advertisement for Amigaincworld which is pathetic and the same goes for any other sites which pull the same stunt.

Kemp can i post news item which are just full of links to various site? oh yes of courxe :o)
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 103 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 25-Mar-2003 14:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (samface):
Why is is so hard to understand that a genuine, common interest and a united effort of advancing that common interest forwards is what makes a community and that we obviosly don't any of have that anymore? We have different views on the path forwards, our operating systems as well as hardware will most likely not be compatible except through AmigaOS3.x emulation, and what made us a community to begin with died many years ago. All we have to do is agree to disagree and then move on towards whatever each and every individual feel is right for them. But no, instead we argue about what is the most "Amiga" thing to do while the true owners of the brand has already and clearly stated what the only true official path forwards is.

Sigh... I'm ranting again... anyway, what I wanted to say is that some people seem to have the opinion that the word Amiga is something they own and can define in whatever way they want. It's simply not true. If you choose a different path with a different label, let that label become your new label rather than trying to apply the old label ontop of it. Embrace the new, leave the old behind. There can only be one meaning of every label.

...but in the end, a label is just a label and nothing more. If I would find a specific company with a certain brand evil or something, I would distance myself from that label rather than trying to redefine it.

No matter how I twist and turn things in my rantings, it all comes down to that I simply cannot understand your "I hate Amiga Inc. and will never buy any of their products, but I will always be a member of the Amiga community and anyone saying differently is a blind Amiga Inc. fanatic" reasoning. Can anyone explain this to me?
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 104 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 25-Mar-2003 15:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (samface):
In Reply to Comment 99:
> Well, if you don't care for the Amiga label, then why do you care wether I
> label you as a part of the *Amiga* community or not?

Oh my, aren't you getting hysterical now? You've already stated the only thing we have common is the Amiga machines and you and your advopups have followed Amiga Inc to other places and left us behind. Sammy, don't look back, we're not worthy! Now be a nice little advopup, and go to your promise land and let us stew in our none-believer's hell.

> Also, why would be be such an evil thing to be labeled as a part of another
> (could have but didn't mention the M-word :-P) community? I mean, it's just a > name, right?

You could, but you would be dead wrong (yet again). The only OS I'm backing is AROS as it runs on my perferred and now Adobe's perferred platform, see:
http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html

Now why don't you go play in your own new community and leave the rest of us behind in your dust.

Dammy
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 105 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 25-Mar-2003 15:35 GMT
Is no one here actually interested in discussing what was said?

What's the point of an amiga news site's comments section if no one wants to comment on or discuss the news?

Very strange.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 106 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Amiga User (Not Blind) on 25-Mar-2003 15:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (John Block):
> Is no one here actually interested in discussing what was said?

All what was said was "AmigaWorld now has their 2nd week Q&A session with Fleecy Moss up and on line.", there is nothing to discuss apart from a link to a website which is worth talking about? NO.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 107 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 25-Mar-2003 16:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (John Block):
@John Block

Yes, I'm interested in discussing the content. Why don't you and I do just that?
Come on. Ignore the rest. :-)
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 108 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by AlBolone on 25-Mar-2003 16:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (samface):
@ SamFace:

Sheeesh, is this really so hard to get?? There are quite some people out there who just simply do not agree with the way Amiga Inc. lead and treated the brand they own over the past 3 years!! Why? B/c they *CARE* about Amiga!! Why else would they still be around?? Amiga is (besides being a cool machine) an emotional value to the most of us -- therefore we stick with it -- through the good and the bad! And there can't be any doubt about the last 3 years under Amiga Inc.'s leadership just having been a frustrating experiences for us! And as members of this community (that is not defined by Amiga, Inc. but the Amiga users themselfes!!) we have the damn right to complain and express our dissatisfaction with the lack of progress, vision, honesty and products!! If you haven't realized yet that the last 3 years were total waste of precious time, that cost the market so many users, developers and some potential future, then don't blame others if they did -- and dare to say so!

If you tell me that claiming to be a part of this community requires to shut up and applaude any bullshit coming from the ones responsible for the markets disaster then YOU must be the one wrong here! Expecting us to blindly follow PR (that is proved to be bad and misleading) without any reflection would mean switching off brains and giving a shit about the Amiga! And it wouldn't get us anywhere! If you don't understand that, you seriously have my pity!

Besides: It would be great if you guys would stop routing back any critics to some infiltrating MOS interests! If don't care about MOS -- but about Amiga!! And that's why you expecting honest people with honest concerns to shut up about mentioning this disaster by it's name really pisses me off big time!

And for you paranoids: I am talking about Amiga Inc. -- NOT Hyperion and NOT Eyetech and NOT MOS/Genesi!! Got it?? Good! Sheeesh ...
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 109 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Mar-2003 17:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (samface):
> You refer to Fleecy's answers as not news which I find to be degrading of
> his knowledge as well as authority in the matter.

Huh? It's a QUESTIONS & ANSWERS session, for gawdsake! Whether the answers contain any news depends entirely on what the questions are, don't you think?

> I mean, why wouldn't new information be news?

And this "new information" is?

> Yes, these Q&A are providing us with new information about what's going
> on at the offices of Amiga Inc. and their partners, and I really don't
> think the source of this new information can be more authentic.

Actually, that's something that hasn't been made clear: is Fleecy answering in his capacity as CTO of Amiga Inc, in which case Amiga Inc are bound by whatever Fleecy says and it rather undermines the "don't believe it unless you read it at amiga.com" policy, or is Fleecy answering in an unofficial capacity altogether, in which case one should remember that Fleecy's vision for the future is not always in sync with what can be or indeed is being achieved.

> As for the ANN.lu news posting issue, that's up to the poster of the news
> and/or the moderators of ANN.lu and really has nothing to do with the news
> value of the original article at Amigaworld.

It has everything to do with the news value of the posting HERE though, which is what I was discussing.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 110 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 25-Mar-2003 17:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (Bill Hoggett):
> Actually, that's something that hasn't been made clear: is Fleecy answering in
> his capacity as CTO of Amiga Inc, in which case Amiga Inc are bound by whatever
> Fleecy says and it rather undermines the "don't believe it unless you read it at
> amiga.com" policy, or is Fleecy answering in an unofficial capacity altogether,
> in which case one should remember that Fleecy's vision for the future is not
> always in sync with what can be or indeed is being achieved.

This is actually a very interesting question. Why don't you ask it over at
amigaworld?
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 111 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Amiga User (Not Blind) on 25-Mar-2003 18:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (AlBolone):
That is very well put and is the way i feel aswell.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 112 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 25-Mar-2003 19:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Amiga User (Not Blind)):
>Yes i remember Wayne and some other guy having a go at people who mentioned ad
>blocking software, i ignore people like that because ad blocking and pop up
>stoppers are damn useful when stupid webmasters want to fill their sites with
>ads and pop up scripts.


Uuh Wayne didn't exactly 'have a go'. If someone is going to use it, fine. That's your right. It's hardly surprising that Wayne would politely ask not to encourage others to do the same by posting to his site:-) It's like that MikeB guy I like so, so much who uses other people's websites only for as advertising for AmigaIncWorld.net;-)
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 113 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Dan N. on 25-Mar-2003 21:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (samface):
>No matter how I twist and turn things in my rantings, it all comes down to that I simply
>cannot understand your "I hate Amiga Inc. and will never buy any of their products, but
>I will always be a member of the Amiga community and anyone saying differently is a
>blind Amiga Inc. fanatic" reasoning. Can anyone explain this to me?

I doubt this is a complete explanation and I may be the wrong person to try
and answer you since I actually like Amiga Inc. and I support what they are
trying to accomplish which makes me a fan, not necessarily a fanatic. (I must
add, I also like MorphOS and support what they are trying to accomplish.)
Perhaps, nevertheless, this could be the start of an answer for you:

The "Amiga Community" is made up of people from different areas of focus and
different proximities to the core Amiga technology. Every individual has a
unique historical relationship to the community by virtue of the roles they
hold or have held. These include very broadly: The Amiga Designers, Builders &
Developers, The Amiga Owners & Managers, The Amiga (and related Amiga products)
Promoters & Resellers, and The Amiga Users. Also, there is considerable overlap
between these areas and it's unlikely that any one area fully and accurately
describes a member of the Amiga community. Although community members hold the
technology (or some would say the "Amiga spirit") in common, they still express
a great variety of values & opinions due to unique experiences and perspectives.

Words are important to me. Whenever I see some mention of the name and brand
"AMIGA" I think and feel many different things. The name Amiga conjures
interest, nostalgia and even a sense of hope when I see it circulating. Words
that usually come to mind for me when describing Amiga Technology itself are
"alternative" "unique" "a challenge to the status quo" "efficiency" "elegant
solutions" "well thought out" "intuitive" "for the people" and "fun to use."
Clearly, Amiga does not have a monopoly on these qualities. Nevertheless, Amiga
has come over the years to stand in my mind, as a symbol of community resistance
to the bland and oppressive design principles of corporate fascism. Amiga
survived despite the bungles of its corporate handlers and this gave rise to
the Amiga legend. Amiga is the David who challenged and defeated Goliath. In
this sense Amiga is an idea, not a company or a product. And because it is an
idea, Amiga can never be destroyed by poor marketing, mismanagement or
bankruptcy.

One of the criticisms leveled at the current owners and managers of the Amiga
technology and the Amiga name is that they have not sufficiently honored the
Amiga myth and the Amiga dream. It is argued that Amiga Inc. is a sham, a front,
a wheeler and dealer that is "Amiga" in name only. It is said that the Amiga
ownership and management no longer carry the "true" Amiga torch. I would say
that only time and patience will tell if this is true. I still have patience
and I still have time. I hasten to add, I don't believe Amiga Owners/Managers
have ever borne the Amiga torch. It has always been the Amiga community that
has kept the dream of Amiga alive. I believe that dream began with the passion
and affection of Jay Miner and a handful of maverick engineers who fashioned a
computer system that sounded a clear note of truth in the hearts of those who
used it and those users became the Amiga community.

Praiseful words come to mind when I think of the Amiga designers, builders,
engineers and developers who envisioned and created the platform and have
continued to write software that runs on it. "brilliant" "creative" "eccentric"
"playful" "honest" "dedicated to quality over profit" and willing to endure
hardship for a product and a philosophy they believe in. Unfortunately, many
of the software developers have moved on to greener pastures and some who have
stayed are only interested in manipulating and milking a captive market.
Dwindling resources and limited opportunities bring out the primitive animal
warrior-survivalist mentality rather than civilized collective effort.

I think of very different words when I ponder the Ownership & Management of the
original Amiga company, Commodore, was nearly always seen as hampering and
interfering with success of the Amiga technology that was years and years ahead
of its time. Words that come to mind are "incompetent" "short-sighted" "greedy
& selfish" "lacking vision" "simple-minded & foolish" and "business and profit
above quality"

The Amiga Resellers have always been a mixed bag. Many have sadly gone out of
business along with developers who could not survive in the shrinking market.
Some resellers have been extraordinarily "dedicated" and "loyal" to the product
and its users. Like true "heroes" and "educators" they have "stuck with" and
"believed in" the Amiga technology despite the vagaries of a small and volatile
market. Other resellers have merely been "greedy capitalist profiteers" "snake
oil salesmen" and "flim flam artists" who ironically reflected the personalities
and values of old Commodore management.

Amiga Users have been and are a stalwart group of "geniuses" and "kooks." Words
I would use to describe them are "rebellious" "passionate" "stubborn" "fun
loving" "creative" and eager to assert that the "emperor has no clothes." As
testament to the market appeal of the core technology, Amiga users have been
remarkably "loyal" to the platform, believing wholeheartedly in its capabilities
and its capacity for evolution. Increasingly, though, Users are becoming
"suspicious" "mistrustful" and "incredulous" toward Amiga Management and/or the
Amiga technology. Years of impoverishment have left their mark upon the users
and upon the community. Today, during these times of scarcity, the noble
colorful Amiga community often becomes embroiled in petty unproductive
infighting while certain shallow vultures, eager for death, sit grinning on the
sidelines encouraging any pathetic opportunity for conflict that they see.

Heroes of the Amiga world have historically been the designers and the builders
while the villains have been the owners and the managers of the technology. The
current owner/manager, Amiga Inc., has made only minor progress in redefining
their relationship to the community but they have been unable to fully overcome
the negative mythology surrounding Amiga Management that is so deeply imbedded
in the Amiga community. Actually, in my opinion, the MorphOS/PegasOS ownership/
management have been much more effective than Amiga Inc. in actively addressing
and redefining the negative management/ownership stereotypes held by the Amiga
community. I commend their efforts in this area.

Since 1993, the model for the Amiga community has been: Shared burdens will
lead to shared benefits. Through shared contributions, collective endurance and
patience the community will eventually reap collective rewards. This circle-the-
wagons orientation was a natural development of the post-Commodore community.
Some people in the Amiga community found/find this a bit too socialist in
flavor to swallow. They prefer profit-driven individualism and hierarchical
business models with clearly defined boundaries of responsibility and less
interpersonal or shared decision-making. In response to gradual community
deterioration and the threat this posed to developers (but mindful of management
mistakes of the past), Phoenix, KOSH and other efforts emerged trying to
organize, consolidate and reward talent in the community while at the same
time preserving some of the valuable characteristics of shared decision-making.

So, to answer you question: in the current climate, given the different
pressures and interests involved, it is quite conceivable that a person can
both "hate Amiga Inc." while at the same time claiming to be a staunch member
of the Amiga Community. By the way, Amigans were saying the same things during
Commodore's reign. So, it's not anything new. What is new, however, is the
viciousness between some Amigans as the community has diversified and broadened.
I can only liken the anger I see to the passion expressed by younger children
during a painful divorce. They are torn between the mother and the father. They
feel a great painful loss as the family is reorganized. They are unable at this
time to see the bigger more positive picture and the possibilities that are
opening to us.

The Amiga community is bigger than a particular product that is branded in a
particular way. It is a way of thinking. In this sense I have friends from the
Linux, the Apple and the Windows worlds who are essentially Amigan in spirit.
They just haven't figured that out yet. The Amiga community is made up of those
people who share in the dream of what Amiga represents, not just as a technology
but also as a symbol of resistance to bland mediocrity and business as usual.
Hence the saying that cropped up a few years ago in newsgroups and in some
people's signatures, "Amiga is Dead, Long Live Amiga!" This somehow captured the
fierce pride and playful intelligence of post-Commodore Amiga.

Sincerely,

Dan N.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 114 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Just a normal person on 25-Mar-2003 21:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (redrumloa):
Amiga.org has been great since all the Amiga inc fanatics and the Fleecy we luv you gang went to AmigaincRULEZWORLD.

Hopefully MikeB and the rest of the Amiga inc zombies will stay there and rot and leave amiga.org alone for the users who can speak their mind.

Now for the fleecy questions, DaveyD needs to control his site and send proper questions to Fleecy instead of letting Amiga incs good buddy MikeB sending Fleecy some pathetic questions asked by the scum worshippers.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 115 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by QuietMan on 25-Mar-2003 21:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Just a normal person):
Very over the top but i agree with what your saying though.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 116 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 25-Mar-2003 21:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Dan N.):
@Dan N

Now this is what I call a forum post!

Very thoughful comment. You paint a good tapestry of the Amiga community
without falling into the flaming pits otherwise lining this thread. Applauds.

I would gladly try to start up a discussion with you, but I find little to
disagree with... ;-)
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 117 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 25-Mar-2003 21:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Just a normal person):
Rarely seen such a difference in quality between two subsequent posts ...
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 118 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 25-Mar-2003 22:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (samface):
Since when is Bill Hogget Pro-MorphOS? Hipocrite...
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 119 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Mar-2003 23:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (SlimJim):
@SlimJim

> This is actually a very interesting question. Why don't you ask it
> over at amigaworld?

Because that is a site I will not participate on until Mike Bouma is removed from his position of admin and the site drops its political agenda. Call it a one-man boycott if you will, not that my presence would last long even if I did try and post there.

You may however submit the question in my stead, and even rephrase it to make less offensive to over-sensitive readers. However, I wouldn't bet on it being chosen as one of the questions forwarded to Fleecy...
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 120 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Mar-2003 23:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (SlimJim):
> Now this is what I call a forum post!

But look how long he had to store it up to come up with one of those. Bet he couldn't do one every day! ;P
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 121 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Not a worshipper on 26-Mar-2003 07:04 GMT
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=285&forum=4

Now if the above URL do not show Amigaworld to be only Amiga inc pro then you really are a worshipper.

couple of comments taken from it,

"Because they are our last hope, also they take the time out of their busy schedules to get involved in the amiga community, in other words, they go the extra mile."

"Well, the site is called www.amigaworld.net and not www.m#r#hos.net !"

"I'm also pleased with the fact that they are running this company on a "business like" basis. That means they are working as best they can"

"I've been impressed with their attitude in general."

"They have invested a lot of blood/sweat/tears not to mention money and I thought I`d repay them a little with my support."
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 122 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 26-Mar-2003 08:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 121 (Not a worshipper):
@Not a worshipper

Those are answers to a questions about why people would still support AInc despite
the lack of evident progress. Of course people will point out the things they do
support. If you had read the thread you will also notice several reservations
against the lack of delivery and against the poor PR of AInc. Originally I thought
I'd quote a few of the more critical comments you so fittingly left out, but I
refrain from sinking to your level of quoting out of context.
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 123 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 26-Mar-2003 08:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bill Hoggett

Ok, fair enough, if you have some personal vendetta going, it's your choice. I
think it's a little unfair to DaveyD (you know, the WEBMASTER of the site?) to
give him so little credit as to think he allows MikeB to run it over. If I
remember correctly, MikeB got to choose one question out of the ten last week.
But ok, I'll ask the question for you. ;-)

I too doubt I'll get it published, but not for the reason you think, but for the
fact that I already got my questions answered two weeks in a row...
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 124 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 26-Mar-2003 08:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Dan N.):
Another element was terrific value, buy amiga and you did not have to add on sound card, graphics card etc it was all included in an amazing package at an amazing value price. Most software was also cheaper than alternatives.

The little machine which could
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 125 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 09:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (AlBolone):
>Sheeesh, is this really so hard to get?? There are quite some people out there
>who just simply do not agree with the way Amiga Inc. lead and treated the
>brand they own over the past 3 years!!

Then why keep clinging on to it? Why associate yourself with a label that is a disgrace to you?

>Why? B/c they *CARE* about Amiga!! Why else would they still be around??

1. You're associating your emotions for the good old classic Amiga computing days with the brand. Perhaps now you see the value of the brand and why so many feel that it's not just a name?

2. They are not "still around" if they chose another platform (different OS as well as hardware).

>Amiga
>is (besides being a cool machine) an emotional value to the most of us --
>therefore we stick with it -- through the good and the bad!

But, can't you see that the brand and the company owning it is a one package deal? You can't eat the cake and have it at the same time, you know...

>And there can't be
>any doubt about the last 3 years under Amiga Inc.'s leadership just having
>been a frustrating experiences for us!

Of course. If you decide to move on towards something different, it's completely understandable. I ask myself why I keep clinging on to that old machine next to my monsterous PC nearly everyday too. However, if I would give up, I wouldn't keep claiming to be an Amiga user or part of the Amiga community anymore. It would only be lying to myself.

>And as members of this community (that
>is not defined by Amiga, Inc. but the Amiga users themselfes!!)

Well, they define the target market segment of their products, but that's not the same thing as defining the community.

However, I'd like to know how YOU define the community. To me; a computer platform user community is a group of people with a *common* interest and strives towards a *common* goal. Different hardware, different OS, and a different path forwards is dividing the former classic Amiga community, why keep denying it?

>we have the
>damn right to complain and express our dissatisfaction with the lack of
>progress, vision, honesty and products!!

Who said you didn't have that right?

>If you haven't realized yet that the last 3 years were total waste of precious
>time, that cost the market so many users, developers and some potential
>future, then don't blame others if they did -- and dare to say so!

I have no problems with understanding the disatisfaction.

>If you tell me that claiming to be a part of this community requires to shut
>up and applaude any bullshit coming from the ones responsible for the markets
>disaster then YOU must be the one wrong here! Expecting us to blindly follow
>PR (that is proved to be bad and misleading) without any reflection would mean
>switching off brains and giving a shit about the Amiga! And it wouldn't get us
>anywhere! If you don't understand that, you seriously have my pity!

The choice to follow the official path forwards or not is entirely up to each and every individual. That's still not a reason for claiming the rights to Amiga Inc.'s trademark. Example: If Ford decided to hire children in their factories and made dangerous cars that would kill people in traffic, would you claim to be a proud member of the "Ford community" while at the same time cursing the actions of Ford? You're not making sense. Either you're an Amiga user or you're not, decide already.

>Besides: It would be great if you guys would stop routing back any critics to
>some infiltrating MOS interests! If don't care about MOS -- but about Amiga!!
>And that's why you expecting honest people with honest concerns to shut up
>about mentioning this disaster by it's name really pisses me off big time!

MorphOS is just one example of an Amiga alternative (as in not an Amiga). There are several other options and there's nothing wrong with alternatives. However, why deny that it is an alternative path (whatever alternative path you might be talking about) to the Amiga path? Why keep talking about all of these alternatives and it's users as a part of the same community when it's obvious that we don't share the same vision anymore? Make you're pick for what you think is the best path forwards, but realize that far from everyone will make the same choice as you. There is only one *official* path forwards for the brand and it would be silly to refer as yourself as a part of one specific segment of the former classic Amiga community when you're not. Today, the Amiga community is the ones following the official path forwards, the rest is a part of whatever community for whatever path they may have chosen. We have nothing in common besides our history, but that is nothing unique. There are many former Amiga users out there that chose a different path several years ago, would you refer to them as members of the "community" as well?
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 126 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Dan N.):
Now that was a nice and well needed breath of intelligence that we don't see much of in here these days. I agree with most of your reasoning. However, I wouldn't agree that the community is about a certain core technology but that it would be a certain spirit, or an idea if you like, I completely agree with. That's why I oppose the concept of applying the Amiga label to every idea for advancing the platform out there. The former classic Amiga community has been divided into many different segments pullling in many different directions. If you apply the Amiga label to all of these segments, it would ruin the whole concept of a united community with a common interest in advancing the platform.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 127 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 26-Mar-2003 11:30 GMT
Someone please shut up the worthless bunch of Amiga worshipping bastards.

Get back to wanking off to the ASK FLEECY picture.

You people are CANCER.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 128 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 26-Mar-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Anonymous):
You've got issues, man...
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 129 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 11:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Anonymous):
If you're looking for a non-amiga forum, you've come to the wrong place.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 130 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 26-Mar-2003 12:14 GMT
Relax everybody. I recommend everybody to not to take AI too seriously, as long as it's just talk and not concrete results.

(they have their jobs and their agenda, only time will tell...)
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 131 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 26-Mar-2003 12:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (SlimJim):
@SlimJim

> Ok, fair enough, if you have some personal vendetta going, it's your choice.

Not a vendetta. That would imply that I am taking active action against someone I dislike, which in this case is simply untrue. I leave that kind of stuff for Bouma himself.

> I think it's a little unfair to DaveyD (you know, the WEBMASTER of the site?)
> to give him so little credit as to think he allows MikeB to run it over.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that DaveyD has any intention of reigning Bouma in. As far as I can tell, Bouma is doing pretty much whatever he wants.

> If I remember correctly, MikeB got to choose one question out of the ten
> last week.

So?

> But ok, I'll ask the question for you. ;-)

Don't do it for me, because it won't change my opinion of either amigaworld.net or Amiga Inc., no matter what the answer is. I'd have thought it would be a pertinent issue to those to whom the answers are important though, so I'm surprised no one has asked the question yet.

> I too doubt I'll get it published, but not for the reason you think, but
> for the fact that I already got my questions answered two weeks in a row...

Which, if the questions were managed properly, would have no bearing on the issue. If a question is of interest to everyone reading the answers, and this one should be, who cares who asked it?
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 132 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 26-Mar-2003 12:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Bill Hoggett):
I have no intention to make a fuss over an opinion you are obviously very determined to hold on to, but I just want to comment on this:

> I have seen no evidence whatsoever that DaveyD has any intention of reigning
> Bouma in. As far as I can tell, Bouma is doing pretty much whatever he wants.

I must have missed all this. Having read the forums, I have noticed no effects
of Bouma ruling what is said or not. Sure he posts sometimes, and he IS very
AInc-friendly, no doubt of that, but I have not seen any more devious things
than him stating his opinions just like everybody else.-
Definately nothing like what is claimed by the comments on ANN!

>> If I remember correctly, MikeB got to choose one question out of the ten
>> last week.

> So?

So, if he "run the site" as you say, shouldn't every question go by him? That's
what many (perhaps not you) are claiming.

Note: I am not specifically defending MikeB and his particular view on things
here. But I think the claims people make about amigaworld -just based on the
existance of a few specific individuals- is
a) giving their persuasive powers too much credit, and
b) insulting the intelligence of the members of that site.

.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 133 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Alan on 26-Mar-2003 12:34 GMT
I have no problems with Amigaworld or members on their but why on earth do you put in charge of the Fleecy questions a guy what wanted Amiga.org turned in to a site for just Amiga inc praise and nothing else? it makes no sense and if you read other sites where Mike has polluted (especially those one sided articles) you will see how bad he can turn a good website in to a very bad place to visit.

Please for the love a god stop it before that site turns fully in to a Amiga Inc praise only site.

Amiga community portal? no way.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 134 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 26-Mar-2003 12:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (SlimJim):
@SlimJim

Bouma's abuse of his position as admin has already been documented in other threads here and on other Amiga forums, complete with specific links etc. I am not going to dig them all out again. If you close your eyes to evil, it is your choice, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As for the intelligence of the amigaworld.net members and all that, I really couldn't care less how they interpret my own choices. If they feel insulted that I give no credence to the site and don't want to post there, it's their problem, not mine.

Incidentally, I am not alone in choosing not to post there. I can think of at least one staunch supporter of AmigaOS4 that is equally convinced there is something terribly rotten beneath the veneer of friendliness at amigaworld.net.

I really think we have exhausted this line of discussion, don't you?
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 135 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 12:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (Alan):
We really shouldn't try stop anything, the owner of the site may do as he pleases with it. If you want to visit the site or not is entirely up to you.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 136 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 12:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Bill Hoggett):
See comment #135.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 137 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Amiga inc supporter on 26-Mar-2003 13:06 GMT
I like Amigaworld as it give me the chance to say how much i love and respect Amiga inc, what is wrong with that? nothing.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 138 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 26-Mar-2003 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bill Hoggett

> If you close your eyes to evil, it is your choice, but that doesn't mean it
> doesn't exist.

Now this *is* scary. I realize you are paraphrasing, but to use the term "evil"
in conjunction to *anything* about a bloody hobby computer platform is taking
your hobby a little to serious...;-)

> I really think we have exhausted this line of discussion, don't you?

Yes. And if you read carefully, I wasn't trying to change your mind either.
(I do think you're being silly though, but that's just me.)
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 139 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 13:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (Amiga inc supporter):
No, you can't be too positive, that's *evil*!

;-)
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 140 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 26-Mar-2003 13:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (SlimJim):
>I must have missed all this. Having read the forums, I have noticed no effects
>of Bouma ruling what is said or not.

Exactly, you havn't noticed because it has been censored! I have been censored.

Damn I gotta stop chimming in.. MB is not worth my time.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 141 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 26-Mar-2003 13:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (SlimJim):
>Now this *is* scary. I realize you are paraphrasing, but to use the
>term "evil" in conjunction to *anything* about a bloody hobby computer
>platform is taking
>your hobby a little to serious...;-)

Yeah, well i can't speak for Mr hogget but I can see myself slipping and calling it evil. I grew up during the cold war and was taught to believe communism is evil.;-)
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 142 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (redrumloa):
forum moderation != censorship

Amiga.org has been accused of what you are accusing Amigaworld of right now many times. If there is any truth to the accusations or not doesn't matter, I'm just pointing out that using the word "censorship" might be jumping to conclusions.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 143 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 26-Mar-2003 13:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 142 (samface):
Yes it has been used before against A-Org, by MB himself and others. I ask you samface, do you yourself think A-org censors? I doubt it. A-Org rarely deletes anything. AW.net OTOH deletes everything that is not pro A-Inc and pro MB.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 144 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 26-Mar-2003 13:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (SlimJim):
> In Reply to Comment 134:
> @Bill Hoggett

>> If you close your eyes to evil, it is your choice, but that doesn't mean it
>> doesn't exist.

> Now this *is* scary. I realize you are paraphrasing, but to use the term
> "evil" in conjunction to *anything* about a bloody hobby computer platform is > taking your hobby a little to serious...;-)

Yet it's not about a computer platform, it's about a company owning a trademark. When you have sheep following a mesiah, there is ample room for *evil* to run amuck. AmigaIncWorld.net's own forums show this quiet clearly to those of us not shoving our heads in the sand. AmigaIncWorld demonstrates what is clearly wrong with the trademark fanatics. I'm just glad they have a place to be preached to but I wish they would leave these sites alone. We are not worthy of their appearance. ;)

>> I really think we have exhausted this line of discussion, don't you?

>> Yes. And if you read carefully, I wasn't trying to change your mind either.
>> (I do think you're being silly though, but that's just me.)

Actually, all this PR stink being raised on here smacks of proselytizing, but that's just me. You all are as about as annoying as Jehovia's Witnesses with your cultish practices of proselytizing.

Dammy
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 145 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 26-Mar-2003 13:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (dammy):
@dammy

> [...] proselytizing [...]

May I ask what this word means? English is not my first language you see.
.
SlimJim
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 146 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (redrumloa):
Wanna know what I think? Like I said, I would restrain myself from jumping into conclusions.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 147 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Mar-2003 14:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (samface):
I think you might find this thread on Amiga.org interesting:

http://amiga.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=5934&forum=1&start=25&viewmode=flat&order=0

Begin with reading my post where I say:

> Eeeehh... Wayne, what happened to the "Genesi vs the Community" thread?

As I'm not the person that jumps into conclusions, I do NOT say that I was censored. Yes, it felt like that at the time when it happened to me, but now I've decided to just leave it as it is. I still believe Wayne could have handled the situation in a much better way, though.

Anyway, my point is that you should probably do the same regarding the incident at AmigaWorld, don't you agree?
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 148 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 26-Mar-2003 14:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (samface):
You mentioned it. Ok? You did. Twist it around as much as you like, it's the
truth. In ANY context and in ANY way, you DID mention MorphOS on a Amiga Inc.
thread. Exactly the same thing you accuse MANY people about. So I'll copy&paste
a VERY specific word you used in that comment: "Hipocrate..."

Ah, and you mentioned Genesi in the comment before that, out of the blue.

Let me repeat yourself again... "Hipocrate..."
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 149 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Gary on 26-Mar-2003 14:13 GMT
There is censorship on Amigaworld all the time by the same person who was attacking Wayne Hunt for the samething, i have had a warning from MikeB because i called Fleecy a liar, yes a nice warning that if i continue the Amiga Inc hate campaign i will be banned.

I never knew calling someone a liar would be classed as a hate campaign, yes believe it on not there is censorship on Amigaworld, is it on Amiga.org? might be but never had a warning for speaking my mind on there.

Also yes i did post links a while ago to prove the above but was called a Amigaworld basher.
Questions with Fleecy Moss - Week 2 : Comment 150 of 193ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 26-Mar-2003 14:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (samface):
It would certainly be a news if it was posted here...
The Q&A itself IS news, the announcement that the Q&A is out on a DIFFERENT
website with DIFFERENT sponsors is NOT news...
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