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[News] Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga IncANN.lu
Posted on 03-May-2003 03:21 GMT by Jubal (Edited on 2003-05-03 05:49:08 GMT by Christophe Decanini)232 comments
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A notice has been put up for perusal in an attempt to find a lawyer interested in handling a Class Action suit against Amiga Inc. By Wednesday, May 7, a lawyer will be selected. Anyone interested in joining please contact me at jubalharsaw1973@yahoo.com Only "Club Members" please. You must have proof of payment, a valid Email address, and understand that those involved in the Class Action will likely not recieve product if the suit comes to pass.
On Wednesday (or shortly thereafter) a lawyer or representative will contact you and verify your Email, and your information will be verified by the lawyer, not me. (But I do need to supply him with a contact Email or at least a phone number or address)
I've been instructed NOT to reveal the details. These you must only discuss with the lawyer when contacted, AFAIK, I will not respond to flames, and I ask that you not give me any information other than a means to verify you are a real person.
I'm sorry I can't say more, but untill Wednesday I don't really know what I can say.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 101 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by AmigaGuy on 03-May-2003 18:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (dammy):
@Dammy

It's not to late. You can still join.

I'm sure the Feds will really give a crap too.

AmigaGuy
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 102 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 03-May-2003 18:26 GMT
Okay, to be blunt and such...

-Rationalizing the coupon purchase as a "goodwill" donation is insane. I can certainly abide by the idea of proving that people *do* pay money, and I can feel Amiga's pain at lacking a more salable product that would've done this anyhow. [It's forever puzzling why the DE hasn't gone ahead as a standalone for the Zaurus, Palm, or Symbian platforms Amiga owners would actually run, but I can certainly see it from the perspective of 'ill will, moving target, doesn't exist/doesn't exist yet,' PocketPC being the closest thing to a stable API on a powerful-enough handheld. Market-targeting (or at least, market-understanding) has certainly been a failure of management.]

We didn't make a donation; you can't donate to for-profit companies. No, we bought: A membership, a raffle ticket, a T-shirt, and a refund.

AInc. has delivered on the membership, Eyetech conducted the raffle despite the sales figures (IIRC). We're waiting on the T-shirts. Refunds are an utter question-mark; *has anyone actually filed for one and received or failed to receive?*

With the PartyPack, AInc. delivered on the product. The refund is the same question-mark (*has anyone requested, and been denied?*).

SDK purchasers got what they paid for, but *do* have to sign an NDA to receive the free updates promised.

Point is, buying the *product* was certainly an act of goodwill, in terms of trusting an uncertain company; you can be happy or not with what you received. It is ridiculous- that is, a false statement- to suggest that people have no right to sue; here in the US, you *always* have a right to attempt to bring suit, whether or not you agree that it's a good right to have! (How far a suit actually gets/can may depend on the rules of the court, themselves defined through legislation, common law and so forth, all subject to review by the Supreme Court. Generally, there're requirements a complaint must meet to be considered hearable, so things can and do get 'thrown out' early in the process. Those rules mostly look at "Is it possible to have an argument about this?" not "Should this be deferred to common sense?" hence the McDonalds' Coffee sort of things that confuse foreigners into thinking we have no sense of process. ;))

Personally, I got about 3/4 of what I ordered, and the rest (and, of course, what some would argue is the 'biggest part') depends on actual availability of the A1 and OS4 and so forth; having yet to order, it hasn't become a direct concern to me. I can't remember what AInc. said about coupons/refunds applied to the Earlybird systems, but Eyetech is no longer marketing their boards as "Earlybirds," so it certainly *would* be nice to know.

Anyhow, if you're not happy, and you take part in a suit, what will/won't happen?

-This would be a weird lawsuit, and/or a weird time to bring one.

I'd hate to see AI go, but I'm not saying this is a bad thing- certainly, if you bought in before it became the 'Club' (as in, you were "spending $50 on $50 off"), and thus weren't trying to buy the 'Club Membership,' and thus feel you've seen nothing and have asked for your $50 back and not received it... that's your prerogative. Starting now does imply pessimism while taking into account the delays of the legal system.

But anyhow, let's say the suit did start today. To be able to make the case 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' (which is beyond the requirement for civil cases, but certainly makes them go faster), you'd want to be able to show that you were refused your money back- that is: A) you have requested it and not received it, and/or B) you actually made your purchase, contacted AInc., and haven't received it... and A only works *in full* for those who bought in before it was 'The Club,' since purchasers who knew it was 'The Club' have gotten part of what they asked for.

Point is, if you want to make this work, you probably want to put in the token effort of asking AInc. to make good- and in turn, signing on because "I can't afford/purchase an AmigaOne yet! Waah!" weakens the case.

Since it desperately wants to become the latter, let's say it does. Then, given the weak availability of the A1 thus far, it becomes a number of more arguable questions- Was the offer fraud(ulent) in the first place? If so, what sort of remedy would be warranted? Do users who signed on *knowing* of 'Club' benefits deserve full remedy after getting their 4+ months worth?

--

There's no way a suit could force delivery of product that doesn't exist, but I don't think a company can refuse to sell you something based on your participation. However, buying coupons now solely for purposes of taking part would greatly weaken the chances of a favorable outcome (and any sensible lawyer wouldn't allow the class period to extend to the date announcing the intent).
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 103 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 03-May-2003 18:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (Mike Rotch):
Ever thought he just might like winding you up? ;)


>I wondered where you was, now please tell us the court documentation is lies, as a cheerleader you still continue to defend fraud and praise Amiga Inc even though legal documents are available to anyone now which exposes Amiga Inc as liars and fraudsters.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 104 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 03-May-2003 19:24 GMT
Without having even read the thread I'm guessing 90% of the posts are negative
remarks from people who HASN'T got a coupon. Am I right?

(Anyway, I'm out of here since I haven't got a coupon either and thus really has
no interest posting here. ;-) )
.
Slimjim
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 105 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Mark on 03-May-2003 19:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (Colin Camper):
"And who are you 'Hero Worshiping'?
I don't think my not being bothered by what happened to my $50 equates to hero worship? The only person at A inc that I have dealt with is Gary Peak who I find to be honest and friendly - and does what he says he will do. As for the others - all I know is that when good things happen to the Axis of evil camp you don't see A-inc people firing up a copy of photoshop and creating a laughably poor fake business card along with some bullshit story. "

If/when the story turns out to be true and the card genuine, will you offer apologies all around? I thought not.

Mark
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 106 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Mark on 03-May-2003 20:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Thomas Würgler/Pagan):
"As for point 7, I'd rather have people buy the coupons than have them buy the products we've made so far."


I would rather sell coupons rather than product myself. Sure would pad the bottom line. Man they are pure profit!

Mark
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 107 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler/Pagan on 03-May-2003 20:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Mark):
That's sort of besides the point isn't it?
The original poster was talking about supporting developers, and I wrote as a developer.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 108 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Camper on 03-May-2003 20:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (Mark):
" If/when the story turns out to be true and the card genuine, will you offer apologies all around?"

I will offer apologies all round and buy you a crate of beer. :-)
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 109 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Mark on 03-May-2003 21:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Colin Camper):
And I will fry the shrimp :)

Mark
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 110 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Mark on 03-May-2003 21:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (Thomas Würgler/Pagan):
"That's sort of besides the point isn't it?
The original poster was talking about supporting developers, and I wrote as a developer."


That was my point: Why develop a product when I can make a living (get support) for coupons. Rebates and coupons should be offered when a product is reasonably ready for distribution. If management thought OS4 was ready for distribution at the time of coupon sale they should be replaced. Wait maybe they have.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 111 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Jciber on 04-May-2003 02:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
Hell be suprised to find it deleted. I change hotmail emails every two weeks. After two weeks theres so much porn in my mail box it goes over the limit.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 112 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Red Melons on 04-May-2003 06:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 104 (SlimJim):
"Without having even read the thread I'm guessing 90% of the posts are negative
remarks from people who HASN'T got a coupon. Am I right?

No - 100% of the posts on here are from people who don't have a coupon ;-)

I signed up as soon as the $50 rebate scheme was announced, because AInc said that it was to provide information on how many AmigaOnes should be produced.
I rang Eyetech first to see if I could pay through them, but they said they hadn't been consulted, and wouldn't be participating.

AInc offered a $50 rebate coupon - NO coupons have been produced or delivered.
AInc said that Club Amiga members would have prority for AmigaOne deliveries - this hasn't been the case.
AInc offered a t-shirt to Club Amiga member - these haven't been delivered.

Some people have mentioned that the have e-mailed AInc to ask how they get their $50 rebate now that they have AmigaOnes but got no reply.
I really don't think AInc is going to reply to any requests for rebates until their current problems are resolved.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 113 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (dammy):
"I wish I had coughed up the $50 now, I could be screaming to the Federal Government for a full blown criminal investigation of Amiga Inc and it's executive officers for mail fraud."

Here it just goes to show how blind your Amiga Inc. hatred is. Despite not beeing a "victim" yourself, you are willing to sacrifice $50 + legal fees just to get back for a score you didn't have anything to do with in the first place. It's like joining a fight just to have a reason for kicking somone's butt despite not having anything to do with the conflict to begin with. Or, like a politician, you prefer slander the opponents rather than talking about how great your own politics are. You see, it's exactly this kind of irrational and destructive behaviour that is going to bring the entire Amiga market as well as community down if people like you keep it up. Now, stop talking about those who support Amiga Inc.'s as "Amiga Inc. apologists" and realize that you should learn from us and stick to talking about your own preferred choice rather than attacking the opposition. Try beeing constructive rather than destructive for once. Accusations and slander has never made anyone progress, period.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 114 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 04-May-2003 08:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (samface):
>Despite not beeing a "victim" yourself

Samface, you really don't have to be a direct victim yourself to care for others, or to want to see wrong made right, and those who have wronged made accountable. Amiga Inc. have brought much of the current situation on to themselves and the community has suffered a lot because of that.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 115 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Camper on 04-May-2003 08:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Janne Sirén):
" Samface, you really don't have to be a direct victim yourself to care for others, or to want to see wrong made right, and those who have wronged made accountable. Amiga Inc. have brought much of the current situation on to themselves and the community has suffered a lot because of that. "

The community HAS suffered alot but the coupon thing isn't relevant yet (until OS4 ships) - so now that the community is seeing an upturn with product shipping and A-inc realising revenue streams that can facilitate the community - you people start this shit for spurious reasons.
Again, I put it to you that you are FRAUDS! We all know who you are cheerleaders for...
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 116 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 04-May-2003 09:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Janne Sirén):
I agree. I might not be a customer of Amiga Inc., but ANN covered the coupon thing extensively when it first came out; and as such I have an indirect interest in Amiga Inc. either living up to their promises, or being punished for not doing so. I'm sure a lot of people are in similar positions.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 117 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-May-2003 09:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Janne Sirén):
The ppl who have paid for a coupon can look after them selfs, they dont want or need your help.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 118 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 09:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (Christian Kemp):
Not living up to their promises? What has that got to do with the rebate coupons? I mean, how are they supposed to be giving out rebates on not yet officially released products? You see, even IF this whole thing would be a scam, it hasn't become one yet. Please put down your pitchforks and call off this pathetic witch hunt now before anyone of you hurt yourselves.

Geez...
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 119 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 09:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Janne Sirén):
"Samface, you really don't have to be a direct victim yourself to care for others..."

So, you're saying that Dammy would be doing this simply out of the goodness in his heart? That he would be some kind of martyr, sacrificing himself for the sake of the Amiga Inc. supporters?

I'll get back to you on this next week, when I'm done laughing that is. :-P
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 120 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 04-May-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 118 (samface):
I really admire your endless goodwill, Samface :) I wonder what it takes to turn that 180 degrees.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 121 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 04-May-2003 10:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 102 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
"SDK purchasers got what they paid for, but *do* have to sign an NDA to receive the free updates promised. "

Actually, that is not correct.

I (rather foolishly) bought a copy of the SDK.

I signed the NDA.

I have yet to receive ANY of the mythical updates which that liar McEwen claimed were coming "real soon" years ago.

Ah well, I suppose that makes me a whinging BMF, right?


(BTW, all those who say they are happy to have donated $50 to AInc and don't want anything in return - could you donate ME $50 too, please...)
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 122 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 10:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (samface):
Seriously, I do believe it is pretty obvious that Dammy was talking about trying to get back at Amiga Inc. rather than helping the "victims" of this so called "scam". Come to think of it, I don't see many posts in here at all talking about helping the "victims", what most people are talking about is how "evil" Amiga Inc. is and that everything would be so much better if they would be sued and put out of business once and for all.

Let me tell you this; *I* have both an Amiga PartyPack and a Club Amiga membership. I know for a *fact* that these kind of acts against Amiga Inc. does not comply with what *I* want. So, if you would really care for *me*, as an Amiga PartyPack owner and Club Amiga member, then you would do as I say and drop this pathetic witch hunt now. If you don't, you *obviously* have other intentions besides "helping" me.

*I* do NOT want a refund, I want the promised rebate for an AmigaOne + AmigaOS4. I payed up front in an attempt to help funding the development of these products. If you start claiming refunds now, before these products are properly released, won't that ruin the entire purpose of the prepayments to begin with?

Suggestion: If you are not an Amiga PartyPack owner nor a Club Amiga member, don't post. This thread is *only* relevant to those who has payed for these rebates.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 123 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by logain on 04-May-2003 10:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 118 (samface):
You seem to be a very naive person.
You really mean, that they dont give these rabates simply because the
AOne isnt officially released??

Sorry, but those ppl who took part in this scam, are in most cases
ppl, who finally decided month ago to get an AOne. They can now
officially buy this product at their local dealer. But they wont get
their rabate, thats why they are forced to wait now...a very bad
situation for them, especially when not even knowing if they get
anything at all...
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 124 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Ray A. Akey on 04-May-2003 10:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 121 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
Uhm.. Keith? Have you even logged into amigadev.net and hit the developer tab? I am looking at your account here and you are flagged NDA-positive and have access to the SDK Updates.

So, where's the problem?
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 125 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by logain on 04-May-2003 10:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Ray A. Akey):
Maybe he^s searching for the 3D stuff you promised for the end of 2000
;-)
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 126 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 04-May-2003 10:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Ray A. Akey):
Uhm.. Ray?

Yes, actually, I have thanks. Check your server logs if you disbelieve.

However, those minor bugfix and small additional feature updates do NOT give the major updates McEwen promised years ago.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 127 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Joe Vidueira on 04-May-2003 10:57 GMT
This is pathetic and moronic, not to mention immoral. Anyone who joins this lawsuit is making it less likely that Amiga Inc. will be able to fulfill its Amiga Club obligations, and less likely to succeed in general--which is exactly why all of us gave them $50 to begin with!

As an Amiga Club member, I could not be more opposed to what my supposed "defenders" are doing to destroy any chance of an Amiga rennaissance. Talk about fanatacism.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 128 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 11:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Anders Kjeldsen):
Well, I'd say alot more than prejudgemental accusations and FUD from Amiga related forums. I intentionally choose to not comment on those previously mentioned court documents since each case has to be investigated individually and in full detail before you can make any conclusions what so ever. Search for every courtcase where Microsoft has been involved for example, and you will find that Amiga Inc.'s accusations are innocent and insignificant in comparison. I'd say it's wise to not judge a company on such basis as the legal history unless there would be any case in direct relevance to you as a customer. Showing off legal documents such as those published by Rich Woods does not work as a proof of your conspiracy theories, just like Bill Buck's scanned business card from a fictional CEO does not prove that Amiga Inc. would have sacked Bill McEwan, the current President and CEO of Amiga Inc.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 129 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 04-May-2003 11:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 128 (samface):
ROTFL!

Samface, you get more and more hysterical these days!

" Search for every courtcase where Microsoft has been involved for example, and you will find that Amiga Inc.'s accusations are innocent and insignificant in comparison."

So you are seriously telling us that if person A commits a crime, but person B commits a worse crime, then we shoudl just ignore person A's crime and let them off? Priceless, Samface, priceless!

"Bill Buck's scanned business card from a fictional CEO"

Even though Fleecy himself has confirmed that the person and card are actually completely real and valid...

Hmmm. You'll forgive me if I don't believe any more of *your* pathetic lies, Samface.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 130 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (logain):
Did I exclude AmigaOS4 in any way? Nope, I didn't. Wanna know why? Because the rebates are for *both* AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne rather than just the AmigaOne. They promised that their customers would be able to choose wether they want their rebates for AmigaOS4 or the AmigaOne. Some people will only buy the OS for their CyberstormPPC hardware and will therefore want the rebate on just the OS while others will buy both and might want to have the rebate on the rather expensive hardware. This is an issue they simply cannot work out with all of their world-wide distributors as well as local dealers until *both* products are available.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 131 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 04-May-2003 11:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 122 (samface):
You DO know that prepayments are illegal, don't you?
Do you want a bet that you won't ever get a rebate?
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 132 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 04-May-2003 11:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 128 (samface):
You're pathetic... McEwen himself told Bolton's lawyer that he's not the CEO
anymore... But what to say... probably "he's the CEO" only when it suits him:)
Whatever... Believe Bolton if you want, he's *NOT* lying... If you don't it's
your problem...
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 133 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 11:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 129 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
>" Search for every courtcase where Microsoft has been involved for example,
>and you will find that Amiga Inc.'s accusations are innocent and insignificant
>in comparison."
>
>So you are seriously telling us that if person A commits a crime, but person B
>commits a worse crime, then we shoudl just ignore person A's crime and let
>them off? Priceless, Samface, priceless!

Nope. I said that their legal history does not work as proof of those weird conspiracy theories. If A proves that Apples are falling from the tree, does that work as a proof for that pears would be falling from the tree as well? Simple logic, my friend.

>"Bill Buck's scanned business card from a fictional CEO"
>
>Even though Fleecy himself has confirmed that the person and card are actually
>completely real and valid...

Did I say that the *person* didn't exist? Nope. I said that the *CEO* didn't exist.

>Hmmm. You'll forgive me if I don't believe any more of *your* pathetic lies,
>Samface.

I'm pretty sure you'll believe whatever you *want* to believe anyway...
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 134 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
No, Alkis. Amiga Inc. is not a problem to *me*, which seems to be *your* problem.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 135 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Carmona on 04-May-2003 11:46 GMT
Shame on all you, the bashers who post anonymously with neither your name nor a real email address.

Unless you are complete morons (in which case you should have stayed away from the Amiga in the first place and used Windows as you rightfully deserve) you would have found it pretty clear that the $50 were an ADVANCE to Amiga Inc. not a loan, not a purchase. In order to keep going, AInc needed a cash infusion and that's exactly what it was and what it did. Rather than ask for donations, they asked for our trust and promised to make up for it not only by giving us a discount of equal value, but by giving a little bit more. If you can wait for a new motherboard or OS and can't even wait for a simple t-shirt, you really need help!

From a user standpoint Amiga is a CULTURE, not a computer business. You make some sacrifices to keep it going, and it does. The AmigaONE was a dream, it is now a reality. OS4 is almost completed, and won't be delivered until everything works, just like each major revision to the workbench has been.
And in case you didn't notice, the main reason OS4 isn't ready is because THEY listen. AInc changed their original plan, to accomodate those who wanted to be able to use OS4 on classic amigas, making the task more difficult and thus time consuming. We're talking about making a new OS run on old hardware even though it was designed to take advantage of completely new hardware specs.
Did Apple bother? Did M$ bother? Nope. AInc. did.

No matter how long it may take, AInc will deliver on their promises. Why? If nothing else, at least because of Fleecy and Gary. After all the sacrifices they made and all the leap of faith they took, I just can't picture these two guys giving up.

So, if you really feel like complaining about $50 that you obviously didn't need anyway, go ahead. Just don't make a big fuss about it.
On the other hand, if your motives are Morph/Pegasos related, what can i say? Nice hardware (seriously), nice software, but it's not an Amiga.
If you already bought such a computer, don't try to undermine Amiga thinking that you're all set and it won't affect you, P/MOS only exists because it is a reflection of the Amiga, if the original goes down, so will the copy.

And don't bother replying to me in an attempt to argue your case in favor of taking back the $50. Consider it the amount of your fine for being impatient.

Alex.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 136 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 11:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I know, hence the "Club Amiga". However, I really have no problem with looking at it for what it really is; a prepayment for helping funding of the development. It would be really sad if Amiga Inc. got into financial problems and I'll do whatever I can to help. Is that really so hard to understand?
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 137 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 04-May-2003 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (samface):
If you support a bunch of unethical people, you're unethical yourself.-
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 138 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 11:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Which is your own subjective view rather than a fact, I might add.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 139 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 04-May-2003 12:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (Colin Camper):
>Again, I put it to you that you are FRAUDS! We all know who you are cheerleaders for...

I have been a cheerleader of Amiga for fifteen years. I continue to be one. I have spent hundreds, perhaps a four figure amount of hours on user group activities and supporting Amiga. I continue to do so.

I am no longer a cheerleader of Amiga Inc.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 140 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Janne Sirén):
Which is also a matter of a subjective view. The term "Amiga" means so many different things for so many people. However, looking at things objectively; "Amiga is a registered trademark of Amiga Inc.". Please note, that is NOT something I'm refering to as my own personal view of what "Amiga" means.

What I'm trying to say is; whatever "Amiga" means to me, it will flourish and die with Amiga Inc. Wether you like it or not, Amiga Inc. is the major player in the Amiga market as long as they control the trademarks and the IPs. Furthermore, as such small players in the IT market as a whole, the strong legacy and remembrance behind the name is all we've got in order to try regain that momentum we once had. Everyone else in the Amiga market depends on their success, even Genesi, since people selldom look for the alternative before they've found the original. There wouldn't be a Pepsi without Coca-Cola and there wouldn't be any IBM clones if there was no IBM. It's as simple as that.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 141 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas W on 04-May-2003 13:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Well, it's not as if you're not guilty of that yourself.

There are no angels left in this community.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 142 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 13:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (Thomas W):
Try this planet. :-P
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 143 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 04-May-2003 13:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (Thomas W):
Well, I didn't say I'm innocent but Genesi, who I defend, didn't kick out any
employee after leaving him unpaid for several months while lying about the payment
of the insurance. Neither did they sell coupon, let alone being able to deliver
them.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 144 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas W on 04-May-2003 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
That may be so, but then there's the other stuff, which you probably know about that hasn't seen the light of day.

Defending a company like that is hardly ethical. Even if there are some good guys working there as well.
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 145 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 04-May-2003 14:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (samface):
>Wether you like it or not, Amiga Inc. is the major player in the Amiga market as long as they control the trademarks and the IPs.

I am not disputing this at all, but I do still stand behind everything else I said. It all boils down to this:

I have been a cheerleader of Amiga for fifteen years. I continue to be one. I have spent hundreds, perhaps a four figure amount of hours on user group activities and supporting Amiga. I continue to do so.

I am no longer a cheerleader of Amiga Inc.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 146 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 04-May-2003 14:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (samface):
> Here it just goes to show how blind your Amiga Inc. hatred is. Despite not
> beeing a "victim" yourself, you are willing to sacrifice $50 + legal fees just > to get back for a score you didn't have anything to do with in the first
> place.

What you fail to understand with your rabid support for those who are now exposed as what many of us have been claiming they are for years now, wrongs need to be righted. Justice needs to happen.

> It's like joining a fight just to have a reason for kicking somone's
> butt despite not having anything to do with the conflict to begin with. Or,
> like a politician, you prefer slander the opponents rather than talking about > how great your own politics are. You see, it's exactly this kind of irrational > and destructive behaviour that is going to bring the entire Amiga market as
> well as community down if people like you keep it up. Now, stop talking about > those who support Amiga Inc.'s as "Amiga Inc. apologists" and realize that you > should learn from us and stick to talking about your own preferred choice
> rather than attacking the opposition. Try beeing constructive rather than
> destructive for once. Accusations and slander has never made anyone progress, > period.

I guess it's a cultural issue that your so confused about. I, like most Americans, root for the underdogs. We even root even louder when those underdogs are taking on the big guys who cheat and lie. It's a sense of justice. I've watched over the years Amiga Inc piss on numerous "little guy" out there. Worse yet, Amiga Inc and it's despicable employees smiled and *laughed* at those little guys AS they were pissing on them. Kommunity my ass! Amiga Inc is being brought to justice and THAT gives me a warm feeling all over.

So Samface, how's your week been going? You've missed out on so many post here about your heros' treatment of some poor bastard who believed in Amiga Inc's BS.
I certainly hope he and his family will find something that will reward them for their pain and suffering. About $30K may help a tad. Say, how about suggesting to Fleecy another round of $50 coupons and those spiffy free T-Shirts to pay off their debt to Peck?

Dammy
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 147 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 15:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (Thomas W):
Exactly. I'm so tired of this completely irrational "since x is bad, y has to be better" kind of reasoning. It's like listening to politicians slandering each other instead of arguing for their own cause. I very much prefer Amiga Inc.'s new strategy of simply denying the rumours and then moving on to talking about new features in AmigaOS4 or future plans for the AmigaDE, rather than trying to get back at Bill Buck & Co.

Things have been different in the past but nowadays it's easy to seperate the swindlers from the professionals. The way certain information just happen to pop up now when things seem to have finally turned around, the AmigaOne shipping while the Pegasos is not, is a bit too convinient to be accidental. Most people saw right through Bill Buck's little fraud and I think Genesi is loosing supporters quite fast because of that guy (and then he claims Amiga Inc. should change their CEO...). The court documents suddenly showing up shows nothing really. All except 1 case says "RELEASED" which I interpret as "case closed", right? Whoever did wrong has payed their dues, right? The only one left says "pending" and we really shouldn't be making any prejudgements, RIGHT? Then we have someone posting information about a former Amiga Inc. employee, claiming to have his entire life ruined by Amiga Inc. Now THAT was really convinient to just pop up right now, isn't it? Besides, if his supposedly legal issues with Amiga Inc. hasn't been sorted out yet, is it really wise to talk about it in public like this? Talking about information straight from his own lawyer and all... all of this sounds really "fishy" and I will not believe a single word until I see actual facts rather than another person making more accusations. After all these PR stunts from certain individuals lately, it's not a strange thing to NOT believe in every accusation and backstabbing slander you read in the forums of ANN.lu, ok?
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 148 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 04-May-2003 15:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 118 (samface):
> Not living up to their promises? What has that got to do with the rebate
> coupons? I mean, how are they supposed to be giving out rebates on not yet
> officially released products? You see, even IF this whole thing would be a
> scam, it hasn't become one yet. Please put down your pitchforks and call off
> this pathetic witch hunt now before anyone of you hurt yourselves.
>
> Geez...

Hate to break it to such a defender of Amiga Inc, but there are federal laws which Amiga have clearly broken. They could have (and required to do so by US Code within 30 days) released those coupons for AmigaOne or OS4 when they recieved payment. A1s have been out now for sometime so where are those coupons at? Not only have Amiga Inc failed to produce them as they are required by federal law, they have failed to produce them prior to A1's release date. When is this coupon scam's anniversary? Should be a big party for it, right?

Dammy
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 149 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 15:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (dammy):
1. *I* am one of those "little guys" (Club Amiga member & PartyPack owner), do I sound like I want your help from Amiga Inc.'s "pissing"?

What *you* fail to grasp is that most people bought the coupon for supporting Amiga Inc. and that they are still supporting them. We don't want your help, period.

2. I don't think bringing criminals to justice is something unique to the American culture. Leave your patriotism out of this, please. Furthermore, it has not been established that a crime has been committed yet. "Innocent until proven otherwise", remember? I tried to explain above that it's not even technically possible for the crime you are accusing them of to have taken place yet, what part of it didn't you understand?
Preliminary Class Action Request for Information. - Amiga Inc : Comment 150 of 232ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 04-May-2003 15:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (dammy):
I hate to break it to you but it wasn't just a rebate coupon. It's also a club membership fee.

Again, the AmigaOne hasn't been released yet. Hence the name "earlybirds", remember? I think I've said this three times in this thread before...
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