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[Forum] What about this?ANN.lu
Posted on 03-May-2003 13:23 GMT by Amigan (Edited on 2003-05-03 16:30:31 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)54 comments
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Here is another no payment, we must to know ALL THE TRUTH, not only that BBRV wants to say for his interest and bussines. If you don´t know, Bill Buck was the man behind VISCORP. Clik here
What about this? : Comment 51 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by aTmosh on 06-May-2003 19:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (bbrv):
> Buying Amiga Technologies was not the same as buying a few bananas.

Funny you should use that analogy, the parallel is striking. In a few years time commercial banana crops may be extinct just like Amiga basically is now, but that's another story :)

> 2. VisCorp and Escom were partners

Heh, we've heard so much of that from AInc. it's not funny anymore.

> (Note: Manfred and I sat together at the CBM Bankruptcy hearing in NY in 1995. "We" were buying CBM. When we came to visit Escom, Manfred usually took us in his one of his Ferraris to dinner, meetings, etc. These are details long forgotten).

About everyone could have and did show up there, amongst others M$ since it was an open proceeding. Being a Ferrari ride groupie says little, unless you are looking for some kind of conspiratorial nudge-nudge-wink-wink appreciation from aspiring fellow groupies. Too bad it's rather a sign of how much there is wrong with business when CEOs of even failing companies are being ridiculously overcompensated and such personal luxuries seem to be worth more than conducting business ethically. I hate to admit it but 3seas has an actual point there. Flaunting the fact that Schmidt had several Ferraris doesn't say he was a good leader or businessman, just that he had his personal wealth sorted out regardless, or in spite of, the company's continued well being. Strangely that is very much what happened at CBM too.

> We had already issued the VisCorp share certificate to Escom when the trouble started. They were to own 7% of VisCorp and become the European Distributor. The first purchase agreement between VisCorp and Escom was for $43 MILLION dollars.

Which would mean the total worth of Viscorp was valued at $614 million? Or could it be the perceived worth in an inflating dotcom bubble? I guess Viscorp was ahead of its time, including its bankruptcy :)

> This agreement was signed and notarized. Everything was done. The AGREEMENT just had to be implemented. Most of the purchase price was to be covered by the value of the stock.

This is how most of the hyperinflated dotcoms worked before 2001 or so, with no tangible value - pay in stocks/options of as yet unrealized promises/potential. Except most of them actually had lots of VC money to burn before the bubble burst.

> The stock was trading actively above $10/share.

... and eventually that price was corrected to its real value of a couple of cents, before going under of course, suggesting that the real company value was well below the million dollar mark.

> Hundreds of thousands of shares were traded daily. The balance was to be covered by the sale of the inventory which included more than 50,000 A1200 (which were not selling well, BTW). VisCorp agreed to manage this process and take over the direction of Amiga Technologies.

In other words, the perceived company worth was underwritten with potential income from inventory that was rapidly becoming even more obsolete than it already was (the A1200 for example, which was underpowered even at its introduction, already was 4 year old tech at that point), not to mention most of any inventory was in some way being carried away under the arm by the fleeing mob or previously sunk in some CBM construction.

> Helmut agreed to help us sell the inventory and we would drop the price to $30 million.

In other words Viscorp's virtual value dropped in one breath from $614 to $428 million? That does kind of make you think.

> We went to the meeting...now, picture this: Helmut and I (two guys with ego) walk into the conference room after Raquel (ladies first of course). Dr. Hembach liked Raquel and immediately stood up to welcome her. As they greeted each other Raquel told him we could not pay more than $20 million!!! Helmut and I were shocked (that was not the plan!), but even more surprised two seconds later when Hembach said OK and ask Raquel if she wanted coffee!!!

This just shows how much value both sides were offering. I can't see any other reason for dropping your bargaining position like that, unless it was for a quick kill/commission before going to public auction, in which case the inventory would turn out to be pretty much worthless because of obsolescence and hassle in actually rounding it up/putting a real value on it, or for the non-existant market it was supposed to be sold into for that matter.

> 6. Then the work began. Where was everything? There was inventory in the UK, at the forwarder in Rotterdam, in Germany in five places and still millions of dollars of unpaid-for components and A1200s at the Selectron plant in Bordeaux, France (Ferrán, are you starting to understand how complicated this was...;-) ) Finally, Escom had licensed a group in China and there was still some mysterious inventory in the Phillipines that somehow the Chinese were getting without paying for it. To top it all off there was $3 million of Amiga chipset silicon in Philidelphia. Perhaps, one of the funniest moments in this odyessy was meeting former CBM lawyer Ed Goff and rolling one meter by one meter silicon waffers in a shopping cart from his car trunk to his office across Philidelphia city streets in traffic!

Heh, pretty much underscores my point, hilarity, confusion and free looting when order breaks down. Did they have any 747 requisition forms?

> 7. We started to make the due diligence. The IP had to be verified (there were hundreds of patents/patents pending all over the world), the inventory counted, etc., etc. There were simply too many things to recount here now...(maybe later).

So the big question remains, where did all that value end up? In Petro's carboot sale in India? In some Gateway patent portfolio for potential future legal milking? In AInc.'s announcements of partnership announcements, T-shirt and club coupon actions?

> 8. In the meanwhile (see amiga-news interview referenced above), we made a deal with Hembach to keep Amiga operational and together (THERE WOULD BE NO AMIGA INC TODAY IF THIS WAS NOT DONE).

One can only wonder whether that is a good thing or not at this point.

> Anyway have to run for now, but are you starting to understand that off the cuff remarks without all the facts can be a bit shallow and misleading...;-)

By now every Amigan except the beyond-any-help-name-followers (perhaps the ones you are trying to tap into here?) should be aware that everything is shallow and misleading until you hold the actual product in your hands. Viscorp was a huge and IMHO misleading gamble built on hot air that could have possibly worked out but didn't, and trying to rewrite history about the announcements made and people burnt then is not doing any good to possibly bonafide future endeavours.
What about this? : Comment 52 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 07-May-2003 01:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (bbrv):
"Finally, hasn't the "statue of limitations" worn out yet...? :-) "

in order for that to happen Bill, you have to first stop playing the hype gamble. The timeline doesn't start until you stop.... Like addictions....

shrug...
What about this? : Comment 53 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry on 07-May-2003 10:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (bbrv):
bbrv> ...nobody was more disappointed than us.

And nobody was more non-informed than us, the users, whereas you had all the info.

bbrv> Anyway, we will be is Spain this month if you still want to talk about it. Just let us know.

I would be glad to meet you, but not only to talk with you about this question, but about the new machines.

From comment 43: bbrv> "You might guess it gets a little tedious answering the same questions over and over again..."

I have been unable to find a single direct answer to my questions, both Almathera and buy claiming. And I've been searching and finding more interesting questions.

From http://www.globaldialog.com/~amigaupdate/brad/970118:

"FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Chicago, IL
January 3, 1997
Permission Granted to Distribute without Alteration

VIScorp Correction

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Hugh Jencks (312) 655-0903

VIScorp wishes to correct a factual error which was contained in a
previous press release dated December 2, 1996. The fourth paragraph
of that release stated "...a wholly-owned VIScorp German subsidiary
continued to operate Amiga...". The company referred to in that
statement was Velasco GmbH. That company is not a wholly-owned
subsidiary of VIScorp although VIScorp intends to acquire it in the
near future."

The questions is: where you actually working for Viscorp when you formed Velasco GmbH in order to buy AT and its inventory? From what I can understand from the aforementioned article (of course, I can be wrong), Viscorp thought that you formed a Viscorp-dependant ("wholly-owned") company to buy AT, when it was in fact a independant company, so you, AFAIU, did no informed them until Velasco GmbH was already formed and the deal made. So you made a personal deal for a company when Viscorp was still claiming they were going to buy it. From the official Viscorp statement

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~cyberwlf/texts/press/VISCorpStoryLiquidation.html

"Throughout all of this time a wholly-owned VIScorp German subsidiary continued to operate Amiga through Oct. 31, at its own expense and with the concurrence of the Trustee."

and

"VIScorp continues to be interested in completing the acquisition of Amiga."

In case you were still working for them, this is what's usually known as "insider dealing", isn't it?

Also, from the same document:

"During this period VIScorp paid Amiga expenses, including salaries, and generated over $2 million in sales which were to be credited against the final sale price at a later date."

If the Viscorp statement is wrong regarding the ownership of Velasco GmbH and the payment of expenses (you said you paid them from your own pocket), and while Velasco GmbH was already the owner of AT and its inventory, where did the "$2 million in sales" go? To Viscorp or to Velasco GmbH?

Now, my opinion: there´s no need of posting an answer. I know it will be as evasive as they have been until now. And the whole point of all my questions and postings is that this way of doing business ("Donde dije 'digo', digo 'Diego'", in a bad translation "Where I said 'I say', now I say 'Isaiah'") stinks, it's the bad way of doing things, it only helps to make "sides", "camps", "parts" or whatever you call it, it's the best way to divide people and efforts in an already weak community.

And I mean not only you, but also the Amiga side of the business: Bill McEwen, Fleecy Moss, etc. All of you use to mislead the users and have used many barely-ethical, if non-ethical, tactics: coupons, t-shirts, posting private e-mails, saying half-truths or directly lies, giving misleading release dates (intentionally made to keep things going), 'I will sue you'/'No, I will sue you instead', etc., etc... And I think it's not only my perception, but the one of MANY, MANY users, despite their "side" or even if they, as myself, don't belong to any "camp" or "side". That's why I do not preorder, nor buy coupons, and I will wait until I can compare both systems myself before buying one.

But, as I said in a previous posting, not only words count, but facts, and at least you have been able to release what you promised, although not in time, but as I said before release dates seem to be just empty words.

Also, I consider, as for me, this discussion as closed, I don't want to become another so-called "Sammy" (no personal reference intended, Samface), and you won't have to call me Sammy-II. And then I will not call you Mr.Merry-Go-Round: the more anyone try to go to the center of the question, the more spin dizzy he gets.

Best regards,

Ferrán
What about this? : Comment 54 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 07-May-2003 16:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Ferry):
Ok, Ferry.

Best wishes for a successful future,

R&B

P.S. If anyone is really interested in all this just write us and we will find the time to answer.
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