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[Forum] What about this?ANN.lu
Posted on 03-May-2003 13:23 GMT by Amigan (Edited on 2003-05-03 16:30:31 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)54 comments
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Here is another no payment, we must to know ALL THE TRUTH, not only that BBRV wants to say for his interest and bussines. If you don´t know, Bill Buck was the man behind VISCORP. Clik here
What about this? : Comment 1 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon (217.158.106.151) on 03-May-2003 11:26 GMT
You know, its odd. The Amiga's heyday was over a decade ago, so you'd expect most Amiga users to be older than 12, but the amiga web forums seem to suggest otherwise :)
What about this? : Comment 2 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 03-May-2003 12:11 GMT
Hi Amigan, here is some more information here:

www.amiga-news.de/archiv02/020417_interview_bb_pt.shtml

...and how about this post to the Phoenix Game Team mailing list in February:

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Jolyon Ralph" <jolyon@mways.co.uk>
Reply-To: GameTeam@phinixi.com
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:51:59 -0000
To: <GameTeam@phinixi.com>
Subject: RE: [GameTeam] RE: Game Team on amiga.org thread

Hello All

A quick introduction to those who don't know me...

I'm Jolyon Ralph, I was Technical Director of Almathera Systems, who
published stuff for Amiga, CDTV and CD32 between 1992 and 1997. I was
involved directly in projects such as Photogenics and Video Creator and I
did a lot of work on things you have never seen, or never saw the light of
day, such as work with Carl Sassenrath developing the graphics library
subsystem for an amiga-based set-top-box that never saw the light of day. We
also had a lot of little games and projects in development which would be
ideal for this new projects. Noone here except me has ever seen "Katch the
Kat". That'll probably be my first port to this box as it was entirely
written in C. I hope you'll enjoy it :)

Before that I wrote lots of articles on Amiga 68000 programming and all
sorts of other things for magazines such as Amiga Computing, Amiga Format,
Amiga Shopper, Amiga User International, etc.

Oh, and a quick word about the rumours about Almathera/Viscorp - a lot of
things were said about the demise of Almathera and viscorp's part in it,
some attributed to me, which were simply not true. If they were true I
wouldn't be so happy to be working with Bill again, and I'm certainly happy
to!

Jolyon

-----end of message-----

...and in the meanwhile subscribe to the REBOL mailing list at Phoenix if you are interested in what Carl is doing these days.

Have a nice weekend!
Raquel and Bill
What about this? : Comment 3 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Centrix (62.42.228.20) on 03-May-2003 12:20 GMT
Amazing. 6 years ago, a long-gone company called VisCorp was unable to pay another company.
Today, the man behind that company has another company, which is able to pay, to say the least.

Uuuh... So??? If I didn't know better, I'd say I've just witnessed a pathetic attempt, suitable of a Scientologist, Jehova's Witness or another cultist, at covering up current and serious issues with an irrelevant anecdote of the past. But I know better, any upstanding citizen using the nick "Amigan" must be right.
What about this? : Comment 4 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by SimplePPC (213.224.83.174) on 03-May-2003 13:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Centrix):
Please leave faith out of this, it doesn't serve any good
What about this? : Comment 5 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by MiniBobF (212.159.37.14) on 03-May-2003 13:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (SimplePPC):
"Please leave faith out of this, it doesn't serve any good"

Faith doesn't serve anygood? Never was a sentence word said....
What about this? : Comment 6 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Komduur (195.241.12.96) on 03-May-2003 13:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (MiniBobF):
Yeah, but it's true. It only causes trouble and problems.
What about this? : Comment 7 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (194.228.201.3) on 03-May-2003 14:09 GMT
Is Buck is so bad they why is employees from Viscorp working with him again? you guys are just idiots who hate to see your fraudster Inc heroes in trouble so have to bring some shit up.
What about this? : Comment 8 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen (81.29.32.150) on 03-May-2003 14:13 GMT
stop the useless threads, OS4 is comming...nothing else matters :)
What about this? : Comment 9 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X (24.64.223.203) on 03-May-2003 15:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Centrix):
@ Centrix (62.42.228.20) on 03-May-2003 14:20:22



> Uuuh... So??? If I didn't know better, I'd say I've just witnessed a pathetic attempt, suitable of a Scientologist, Jehova's Witness or another cultist, at covering up current and serious issues with an irrelevant anecdote of the past. > But I know better, any upstanding citizen using the nick "Amigan" must be right.

I think You have a very prejudiced viewpoint.

By the way, I just happen to be a Jehovah's witnesses. What do you have against me? :-)
What about this? : Comment 10 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n (80.212.130.156) on 03-May-2003 15:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Darth_X):
That you accept that innocent and good people are sent to hell by the billions.
What about this? : Comment 11 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by EX Amiga Inc fan (65.166.155.132) on 03-May-2003 15:50 GMT
People are only attacking Bill Buck because he showed us the truth about those bunch of fraudsters at AmigaInc, AmigaInc are liars and scum who are still continued to be treated like Amiga heroes instead of the lying bunch of fraudster they really are.
What about this? : Comment 12 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X (24.64.223.203) on 03-May-2003 16:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (m0ns00n):
> That you accept that innocent and good people are sent to hell by the billions.

Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT believe in hell, however many of us will agree that the Amiga market now pretty much feels like HELL! :-)
What about this? : Comment 13 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by MiniBobF (212.159.40.144) on 03-May-2003 16:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (MiniBobF):
>In Reply to Comment 4:
>"Please leave faith out of this, it doesn't serve any good"
>
>Faith doesn't serve anygood? Never was a sentence word said....

Yes indeedy kids, your eyes do not deceive you. That did infact make no sense!!
Should have said:

"Faith doesn't serve anygood? Never was a truer sentence said..."

Much better.

Neil Thomas, AKA MiniBobF
What about this? : Comment 14 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by MASTERTRONiC (195.92.194.12) on 03-May-2003 17:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (bbrv):
"Oh, and a quick word about the rumours about Almathera/Viscorp - a lot of
things were said about the demise of Almathera and viscorp's part in it,
some attributed to me, which were simply not true. If they were true I
wouldn't be so happy to be working with Bill again, and I'm certainly happy
to!

Jolyon "


==================================

"Last year we undertook a major project for VisCorp, for their interactive set-top box system.

Our team dedicated months to developing this project (vui.library, a core component for the new set-top box operating environment), but VisCorp were unable to pay us for the work we completed, and this not inconsiderable debt caused grave cashflow problems that we were not able to recover from.

In the six and a half years that Almathera have been trading we have made many friends amongst the Amiga community and wish everyone that dealt with Almathera at any time during the past all the best for the future.

Jolyon & Paul Ralph
ex. Almathera "

So at which point is he talking arse 1997 or 2003?

Or is this like G4 where it's true for a couple of months then the truth changes? (G4 won't work on Mai Pegasos/A1 - G4 card for Mai Pegasos at AmiWest)
What about this? : Comment 15 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Lando (195.92.168.163) on 03-May-2003 23:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (MASTERTRONiC):
>So at which point is he talking arse 1997 or 2003?

Why don't you ask him? his email address is in the original post.

All we know for sure is that Jolyon is genuinely happy to be working with Buck again and does not blame him for what happened to Almathera.
What about this? : Comment 16 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas (209.86.130.104) on 04-May-2003 00:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (bbrv):
Rebol Mailing list at Phoenix?

Rebol has it's own mailing list...

And a search on "Carl Sassenrath" on groups google kicked this out as the first on the list. -- http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=329DBC54.4487EB71%40dl.ac.uk

Shrug...
What about this? : Comment 17 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 04-May-2003 03:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (3seas):
Hi 3seas...read Carl's post carefully. Do you see our name mentioned? Then, please read the Amiga-News interview again -- carefully. If Raquel and I had not figured out a way to sell a license to the ED, Carl and all the others would not have even have received their last paycheck.

BTW, we have been in touch with RJ too. The last thing we discussed was using the tool seen here for Pegasos game developers: www.fathammer.com. Take a look under Management, then Technical Advisory Board....;-)

Keep searching you will find the truth!

:-)

Raquel and Bill
What about this? : Comment 18 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos (217.0.50.172) on 04-May-2003 06:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (MASTERTRONiC):
Just in case you haven't noticed:

In 1997 he spoke of having probs with Viscorp.
While BB was CEO of Viscorp at that time it is also known that he had some
disaggreement with other officials of Viscorp. BB lost that battle, Viscorp
went under and Almathera followed.

Could it be that Joylon blamed the Viscorp for that change in direction ?
Or that he only later found out who was responsible for the troubles ?

Do you really think he would work with BB again if he would blame him ?
What about this? : Comment 19 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas (209.86.139.128) on 04-May-2003 10:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (bbrv):
I found and posted the usenet link because I already knew it was there.There is a need to keep hype in check, to nullify it's bias so that thehonesty of the issues is understood. You cannot genuinely fix problemswithout genuinely recognizing the problems.I have developed a great caution towards the computer industry, due toexperience that goes beyond the Amiga scene (though much caution is causefrom the Amiga scene).Now if you guys have been figuring out how to turn bad directions around,then that's good. But only thru wide scope honesty will people begin tosee it, but also actually even find solid foundation to believe it.One of the problems many people are faced with is determining thedifference between a-point truths and wide scope honesty.ie, John Smith is a murderer, he killed 12 people. This is fact but madeof a-point truths (pieces of a bigger picture) but in wide scope honestyJohn Smith is a war hero, as he risked his life to sneak out of histrapped and cornered unit to kill enough of the enemy to prevent theobvious oncomming slaughter of his unit.Although the example may be fiction used to express the difference betweena-point truths and wide scope honesty, I have no doubt that there areplenty of real life examples to be recognized in the amiga scene.It's not uncommon for business and corporate names to be used to take theblame for what in reality is the actions of individuals, where theindividuals then escape credit for things gone wrong by letting thenon-human enity of the business take the fall. Especially not uncommon inthe computer industry.There is no question of Carls public communication, he wrote it. What ALLhas happened since..... full scope... from Carls perspective...It seems to me that even some of the so called "Amiga Legends" are nolonger putting all their eggs in one basket unless they have main controlover that basket. And this of course doesn't exclude putting an egg hereor there in different baskets controlled by others. And there are somelike William Hawes who was burned enough that he flat out avoids somebaskets and types of baskets (correct me if I'm wrong about AREXX).It can be difficult, if not impossible, to really search and find all thepicture peices (a-point truths) in order to see the big picture. That'swhat I call the inside looking out problem of incompletition. inside atransluent sphere you can look around and see all the pieces, but you cannever see them all at the same time to see the full honest picture.But then there is the other perspective, outside looking in. Wheresearching for pieces to put together is like looking at a jigsaw puzzlealready put together.From such an outside perspective Genesi/PegasOS/MorphOS does appear to be.... growing.... showing life. Where as Amiga .... deteriorating...showing death. But neither have yet verified their survival or death inthe eyes of the outsiders.I do hope you and other readers understand the analogies, the metaphorshere. Hype has become a dangerious gambling thing in the Amiga scene andby it's very nature has an inherent poision of addiction able to thenmisdirect, deceive.Anyone looking for genuine success should consider it their duty to helpkeep the hype in check.
What about this? : Comment 20 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 04-May-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (3seas):
Hi 3seas, in our book that was a "responsible" post. Thanks.

In your search for the truth remember that "actions speak loader then words" -- no matter what happens on the internet! ;-)

Please check first post on that page (and read the rest if you want....):

http://amiga.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=8278&forum=2&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0

Have a nice day and we look forward to meeting you.

Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
What about this? : Comment 21 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas (209.86.136.232) on 04-May-2003 16:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (bbrv):
scratching me head....

first post lead to a morhpos/a-box/q-box information link.

as a comparison to what else is available/being worked on now, there is AROS, AROS hosted in the GNU/Linux system, there is the GNU core of the Hurd (micro kernel and server based) which will replace the linux kernel while maintaining much (most all) of the software linux users are use to, while opening up new directions of user freedoms and integration.

in short: AROS being used as a easy to use smart user space OS interfacing with the GNU complete system sound very much (in general tech. overview and initial software package availability terms) to be what the target of the future q-box is.

The time line projection to public/consumer level release of the separate AROS and the Hurd are similiar. Meaning that the combining of these two will likely start sometime this year. (a matter of those in a position to do, realizing it can be done and the value of doing it.)

I do not know what the time line projection of the q-box is, but a notable difference between AROS interfacing with GNU-compelete and the Q-box sum is licensings terms. Free Software/Open Source side of the spectrum on one side and the other being cored in proprietary. (x86 vs. PPC hardware is only an issue for the Q-box side of things as AROS and GNU [linux or the Hurd] portability across platforms is within their goals.)

I'm not aware of any other similiar directions to mention, but in the Amiga oriented vein of things I do believe these are the only two.

Search for the truth??? The truth is that computers are automation machines and that user freedom will be achieved once autocoding is made available to the general user population under such licensings terms as the GPL. Toss in FPGA (or the likes of) based hardware and user freedom will then be optimised to take advantage of hardware speeds.

I'm not searching for the truth, but rather honestly putting forth the effort (within my scope of resources) to make the truth available well enough to enable others to do, who currently are not able to, due the illusionary constraints placed on them by an industry that wants to maintain the constraints for profit. (An industry that even openly admits it - ie, -if you want to be successful, make people need you - Bill Gates...)

shrug.... :) I'd rather need someone for genuine reasons than fabricated ones.

The divide between "Free Software" and proprietary is an interesting one to watch evolve. And it'll be interesting to see the affect autocoding will have on this divide.
What about this? : Comment 22 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Velro (194.200.52.204) on 05-May-2003 04:58 GMT
My favorite part was when visCRAP claimed to have buy Amiga Technologies when Escom went bust. It turn out to be complete LIES. I never trusted them since.
What about this? : Comment 23 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 05-May-2003 06:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Velro):
This NEVER happened. All the details were reported accurately and fully. Check your sources.

Raquel and Bill
What about this? : Comment 24 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry (80.58.36.172) on 05-May-2003 06:24 GMT
Found this on

http://www.amiga-news.de/archiv02/020417_interview_bb_pt.shtml

"amiga-news.de: Bill, in your comment you claimed that Almathera Systems Ltd. closed under shady circumstances. Please explain that.

Thendic France: This we did not say. We said that their decision as we understood it at the time was to close the business because the Amiga market had become too small. The market was not big enough to support their operation and they made a business decision to close the company."
What about this? : Comment 25 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry (80.58.36.172) on 05-May-2003 06:43 GMT
Found this on

http://www.pwr.wroc.pl/AMIGA/AR/ar407_Sections/feature3.html

"Jolyon: The Amiga market has collapsed, for commercial software, and it's
been tough. Much of our work is now for custom programming (things you're
never likely to see) and we've even dabbled in some PC programming too
(just to keep the money coming in). But we're committed to developing for
the Amiga, and after meeting Bill Buck of Viscorp last week I am far more
confident than ever that the Amiga does have a secure future - which means
Almathera does too. As for programmer turnover, we've not had a
particularly high rate of this. We've had the same team here for over a
year now..."
What about this? : Comment 26 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas (207.69.91.239) on 05-May-2003 11:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (bbrv):
BBRV, it may not have technically happened but the insinuation that went thru the community was pretty darn strong. Perhaps it'd be relative to use an analogy here. Resumes are not legal documents like job applications are, but rather a marketing tool. But the relationship between the two is close, such that some people may not know the legal difference. And there is interpretation in this community (if it is a community) even here now on this board.... maybe not as bad as a circle of children wispering a tale passed around the circle....
What about this? : Comment 27 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry (80.58.36.172) on 05-May-2003 12:43 GMT
Found this on

http://www.fhi-berlin.mpg.de/amiga/ar/ar410.guide

"VIScorp News: July 24, 1996

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Chicago, IL
July 24, 1996
Permission Granted to Distribute without Alteration

VIScorp Proceeds with Amiga Acquisition

On Thursday, the 18th of July, 1996, the final contract of purchase was
signed between the bankruptcy trustee solicitor, Bernhard Hembach, and the
president and CEO of VIScorp, William Buck, with approval of the 'pool of
banks' for the entire remaining inventory and intellectural property.

Until the 18th of August, 1996, VIScorp has time to establish the necessary
companies to carry on with its current business. In the meantime, the
business will be run with the approval of the bankruptcy trustee Hembach
under the name AMICA Technologies GmbH i.K. From the 19th of August, 1996,
the business will finally be run under the name, control and ownership of
VIScorp."

and also this:

"VIScorp Message: July 24, 1996
Chicago, IL
July 24, 1996

An Open Message to the Amiga Community
from Bill Buck, CEO, VIScorp:

1. Escom AG and Amiga Technologies GmbH are in bankruptcy and will cease
to exist as corporate entities. VIScorp has reached an agreement with the
Trustee for the liquidation of these companies and with the creditors of
these companies for the purchase of "Amiga." There were at least eleven
different banks or companies that had claims to be "owners" of the
technology and/or the inventory. Escom had liabilities of over $250
million. Imagine the confusion...

[...]

3. The final (and last of three) purchase contract was signed on Friday,
19 July. It cannot be changed; it has been executed. The intellectual
property of the former Commodore and the inventory of the former Amiga
Technologies will be owned finally by VIScorp. The final paperwork will be
completed in the next 30 days. During this month, VIScorp GmbH will be
registered and Amiga Technologies will continue to operate temporarily in
bankruptcy for VIScorp."
What about this? : Comment 28 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry (80.58.36.172) on 05-May-2003 13:12 GMT
Found this on

http://www.webworldinc.com/transdata/ti02021.htm

"VIScorp Finalizes Deal to Buy Amiga Technologies

June 24, 1996 - The Wall Street Journal reported today that VIScorp (Nasdaq:VICP) has finalized the deal to buy the Amiga Technologies unit from Germany's beleaguered PC maker, Escom AG. The amount of the transaction was listed at $40 million in cash and comapany stock.

According to the WSJ, VIScorp stated in their press release that the purchase includes all of AT's staff and property, including existing components and finished goods as well as the properties of the former Commodore group. The one exception was the "Commodore" name and trademarks.

A company spokesman was cited as saying that Amiga Technologies will continue to coordinate the production and distribution of Amiga computers at AT's headquarters in Bensheim, Germany and that the deal is expected to close in late July.

VIScorp stock finished up 3/8ths on the news, closing at 11 1/8."
What about this? : Comment 29 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 05-May-2003 13:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Ferry):
Thanks for posting all that Ferry. It proves our point...;-)

If you still do not understand send us an email.

Sincerely,

R&B
What about this? : Comment 30 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry (80.58.36.172) on 05-May-2003 15:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (bbrv):
bbrv> Thanks for posting all that Ferry. It proves our point...;-)

You're welcome, but I don't think so.

Velro said:

"My favorite part was when visCRAP claimed to have buy Amiga Technologies when Escom went bust."

and this is essentially true. You, as Viscorp president and CEO, and also other Viscorp representatives, as everyone can read in the articles and links I found and posted, CLAIMED that Viscorp bought AT, Amiga trademark and other Amiga related stuff from Escom bankrupcy, as Wall Street Journal reported. As we say here in Spain, "usted vendió la piel del oso antes de cazarlo".

Your answer,

" This NEVER happened."

is, at least, inaccurate. The buy itself did not exist, but the CLAIM did, so I can understand Velro complaint. You can check newsgroup messages from that dates, and will find many other people who thought that the buy was already done, based on your and other Viscorp statements.

Also,

"Our team dedicated months to developing this project (vui.library, a core component for the new set-top box operating environment), but VisCorp were unable to pay us for the work we completed, and this not inconsiderable debt caused grave cashflow problems that we were not able to recover from.", from Jolyon Ralph

and

"We said that their decision as we understood it at the time was to close the business because the Amiga market had become too small. The market was not big enough to support their operation and they made a business decision to close the company." from you

do not match. If you make a "business decision to close", you are supposedly free to decide if you want to continue or not, but if your are bankrupt, you are not -that- free: you are forced to close/sell/...

Anyway, I can understand Mr. Ralph is happy working with you again if he found the lack of payment was not your fault, or if you did show good will to solve the problem.

bbrv> If you still do not understand send us an email.

Thanks for your offering, I will do if necessary. Anyway, you can answer here.

Kind regards,

Ferrán
What about this? : Comment 31 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 03:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Ferry):
OK Ferrán, we really do not have the time to do this right now, but you do not leave us much choice. We call you Sammy II now...

Buying Amiga Technologies was not the same as buying a few bananas. It was a bit more complicated. Here are some facts:

1. VisCorp prepaid $650,000 in an advance against royalties in January 1996 for the Amiga 3.1 license. We wanted Escom to credit this amount to the purchase price.

2. VisCorp and Escom were partners (Note: Manfred and I sat together at the CBM Bankruptcy hearing in NY in 1995. "We" were buying CBM. When we came to visit Escom, Manfred usually took us in his one of his Ferraris to dinner, meetings, etc. These are details long forgotten). We had already issued the VisCorp share certificate to Escom when the trouble started. They were to own 7% of VisCorp and become the European Distributor. The first purchase agreement between VisCorp and Escom was for $43 MILLION dollars. This agreement was signed and notarized. Everything was done. The AGREEMENT just had to be implemented. Most of the purchase price was to be covered by the value of the stock. The stock was trading actively above $10/share. Hundreds of thousands of shares were traded daily. The balance was to be covered by the sale of the inventory which included more than 50,000 A1200 (which were not selling well, BTW). VisCorp agreed to manage this process and take over the direction of Amiga Technologies.

3. Everything was all set. Then the Escom difficulties started to mount. First, Manfred Schmidt was accused of insider selling knowing that Escom had lost hundreds of millions in the Christmas 1995 season. Second, a group of seven banks that had huge loans to Escom began to put pressure on the Escom Board and forced Manfred out. Helmut Jost, formally CEO of CBM Germany and Escom Board member become the new Escom CEO. Things had to be re-check and verified by the Banks, but things still looked good.

4. Back in Chicago a couple of weeks later, Helmut Jost called us (the same night Germany won a World Cup Football match -- he was very happy). He told us not to come back the following week, Escom's bankruptcy had been determined. YIKES! What would we do??!! We were in trouble because everything we were doing was based on the AmigaOS, Escom and too many other things that now had to be reconciled. We waited anxiously for another couple of weeks (in the meanwhile the Amiga Community was going crazy!!! Some things do not change!)

5. Finally, Helmut said come over (Chicago to Frankfurt) ...at the airport -- on arrival -- we met Helmut and Dr. Hembach the Bankruptcy Trustee in a conference room at the Sheraton. He would honor the deal if we would. We said OK, but without Escom we would not be able to use the stock of VisCorp to make the purchase. We all agreed to think about. We met again the next day after meeting Helmut early to make a plan and spending half of the night on the telephone with the VisCorp Board in NY, Chicago, California, etc.). Helmut agreed to help us sell the inventory and we would drop the price to $30 million. We went to the meeting...now, picture this: Helmut and I (two guys with ego) walk into the conference room after Raquel (ladies first of course). Dr. Hembach liked Raquel and immediately stood up to welcome her. As they greeted each other Raquel told him we could not pay more than $20 million!!! Helmut and I were shocked (that was not the plan!), but even more surprised two seconds later when Hembach said OK and ask Raquel if she wanted coffee!!!

6. Then the work began. Where was everything? There was inventory in the UK, at the forwarder in Rotterdam, in Germany in five places and still millions of dollars of unpaid-for components and A1200s at the Selectron plant in Bordeaux, France (Ferrán, are you starting to understand how complicated this was...;-) ) Finally, Escom had licensed a group in China and there was still some mysterious inventory in the Phillipines that somehow the Chinese were getting without paying for it. To top it all off there was $3 million of Amiga chipset silicon in Philidelphia. Perhaps, one of the funniest moments in this odyessy was meeting former CBM lawyer Ed Goff and rolling one meter by one meter silicon waffers in a shopping cart from his car trunk to his office across Philidelphia city streets in traffic!

7. We started to make the due diligence. The IP had to be verified (there were hundreds of patents/patents pending all over the world), the inventory counted, etc., etc. There were simply too many things to recount here now...(maybe later).

8. In the meanwhile (see amiga-news interview referenced above), we made a deal with Hembach to keep Amiga operational and together (THERE WOULD BE NO AMIGA INC TODAY IF THIS WAS NOT DONE). After a couple of days we moved the meetings to the Kempinski Hotel outside of Frankfurt where we were staying. It took days to put the Agreement together...when it was done (again) it had to be implemented (we will have to write about this another time as we are running out of time now). As a first step we called Petro and he came to the Hotel. We charged 50,000 DM to our room (thanks to the Hotel Manager and Raquel's credit card) and handed Petro the cash. With this money he paid the first salaries of the new company the new Amiga Inc. Petro was happy and the rest is history....BTW, the name of Amiga at the time was Raquel Velasco GmbH!!!!

Anyway have to run for now, but are you starting to understand that off the cuff remarks without all the facts can be a bit shallow and misleading...;-)

More later,
Raquel and Bill
What about this? : Comment 32 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 06:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (bbrv):
Where are his off the cuff remarks? From what I can see what you just posted
and what was in that press release are not only divergant on the numbers but
also misrepresent the progress you report to have made in your more detailed
anecdote above.

Why call him as another Samface because he is asking questions? If your answers
had more of the gaps filled in in the first place ( what someone on here likes
to call "intelligent and non evasive" ( lol! ) ) then he wouldn't be asking
the questions in the first place.

Still, most of what he is driving at has not been answered.
What about this? : Comment 33 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller (65.128.220.50) on 06-May-2003 08:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (DaveP):
This stuff will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction. Let's stick to
the debating club for two or less years ago, and avoid the one for seven
and eight years ago. Genesi has showed their commitment to the community in
the last year. How? They came to or supported all the the little Amiga shows and BeOS shows and even some big shows like CES and CEBIT and now CEBIT Australia.

All this jazz above is so insignificant in my opinion. Who cares!
What about this? : Comment 34 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 08:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Daniel Miller):
Right. It will never be resolved to everyones satisfaction. Best thing Ive
heard said for years in this place. Now how about we see the same tolerance and
logic applied to Amiga Inc?
What about this? : Comment 35 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (DaveP):
Hi DaveP, who said Sammy II was a bad thing? Have a look at our exchange with Sammy I above. We think you will find some patience and respect from both sides there. OK?

BTW, we think your sponsorship of the OS4 advertisement on amiga.org (as discussed on MooBunny) is first rate. You must be a very decent fellow.

Cheers!

R&B
What about this? : Comment 36 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas (209.86.135.197) on 06-May-2003 09:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (bbrv):
Atari also thought they should get the Amiga.... You Gambled Bill, with public trust. Communicating something before it was signed sealed and delivered.Hype..... but you lost. Hype is a dangerious thing.
What about this? : Comment 37 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas (209.86.135.197) on 06-May-2003 09:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (3seas):
To be clear about losing.Bill you can perhaps talk your way out with a few people. But the fact is there were far more people influenced by the apparent deception of Viscorp in ownership claims then you will be able to find and talk your way out of..Nobody of the public asked you to jump the gun on ownership. That was marketing hype and gamble.
What about this? : Comment 38 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 10:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (3seas):
Hi 3seas, you are entitled to your opinion. We do not think you are in a position to make the judgment, because you simply were not involved and you are confusing our Press Releases with the comments/editorial of others. If Escom had not gone into bankruptcy it would have all worked quite well. I said "notarized." Did you read that? Do you know what that means in Germany? We were a public company and so was Escom. We had to announce things precisely, legally.

Re: Gambled?! We were just trying to survive. Without 3.1 we were dead. In fact, from the "trust" point of view I think we were as honest and as diligent as we possibly could have been. We still tried to make the deal happen and we kept Amiga Inc. alive with our own funds and little support from the Chairman who controlled all the finances. We never recovered this money directly. However, we were able to sell a few shares of VisCorp long after we left and this covered the loss.

Re: Ownership. At one point we owned 17% of the Company, but "control" is another thing.

Finally, hasn't the "statue of limitations" worn out yet...? :-)

Sincerely,
R&B
What about this? : Comment 39 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 10:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (bbrv):
WRT to Moobunny/Hyperion is that what I did? ;-) It's not really my story to
tell.

Decent chap? I try to be and often fail. Consider it aspirational ;-)

WRT to SamfaceII it is clear to me that you were losing patience with Ferry
above and either related or aside from that you referred to him as Samface II.

In the main it is no bad thing to be as enquiring ( and to have someone to hold
you to account ) as Ferry or Samface but Samface has a reputation ( deserved or
not ) of being a troll ( sorry samface! ) as well as asking awkward questions
repeatedly until they get an answer they are satisfied with.

Whatever respect you may or may not have for Sam right now, to ascribe to another the facets and avatar of another with a "reputation" is to give them the entire baggage of that name knowingly, in a public place.

Frankly I don't particularly care whether or not the questions get answered
but I think that ex-Viscorp people should be held to account just as much as
Amino people are online and that people should feel free to repeat the same
old tedious questions at least as many times as has been done about Amiga Inc
but hopefully they won't resort to the silly name calling tactics we have
witnessed over the last couple of years at Amino/Amiga Inc.

Same goes for ex phase-V, ex DCE. Strategies are often double edged swords.

PS while I have your attention do you remember a couple of months back there
was some adverse publicity about Pretory and how airport security in France
was staffed. Don't remember the details but I remember that your names came
up and you said that you would be dealing with the matter in court. Did that
go OK?

Its terrible when ex-company members like that guy start spewing bullshit to the
press and bring your name into disrepute to cover their own arses.
What about this? : Comment 40 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 10:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (bbrv):
WRT to Moobunny/Hyperion is that what I did? ;-) It's not really my story to
tell.

Decent chap? I try to be and often fail. Consider it aspirational ;-)

WRT to SamfaceII it is clear to me that you were losing patience with Ferry
above and either related or aside from that you referred to him as Samface II.

In the main it is no bad thing to be as enquiring ( and to have someone to hold
you to account ) as Ferry or Samface but Samface has a reputation ( deserved or
not ) of being a troll ( sorry samface! ) as well as asking awkward questions
repeatedly until they get an answer they are satisfied with.

Whatever respect you may or may not have for Sam right now, to ascribe to another the facets and avatar of another with a "reputation" is to give them the entire baggage of that name knowingly, in a public place.

Frankly I don't particularly care whether or not the questions get answered
but I think that ex-Viscorp people should be held to account just as much as
Amino people are online and that people should feel free to repeat the same
old tedious questions at least as many times as has been done about Amiga Inc
but hopefully they won't resort to the silly name calling tactics we have
witnessed over the last couple of years at Amino/Amiga Inc.

Same goes for ex phase-V, ex DCE. Strategies are often double edged swords.

PS while I have your attention do you remember a couple of months back there
was some adverse publicity about Pretory and how airport security in france
was staffed. Don't remember the details but I remember that your names came
up and you said that you would be dealing with the matter in court. Did that
go OK?

Its terrible when ex-company members like that guy start spewing bullshit to the
press and bring your name into disrepute to cover their own arses.
What about this? : Comment 41 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (bbrv):
Look Tim ( 3seas ) things can go wrong in a business deal that are far more
complex than that and without sinister reasons. We only have to look at Amiga
Inc to see how unfortunate releasing simplified statements before the deal is entirely done can be. Also remember the context, at this time everyone was
baying for a press release!


@bbrv

US, Germany, France you guys sure do move around you must be experts at the incorporation processes in so many different languages now.
What about this? : Comment 42 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 10:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (bbrv):
WRT to Moobunny/Hyperion is that what I did? ;-) It's not really my story to
tell.

Decent chap? I try to be and often fail. Consider it aspirational ;-)

WRT to SamfaceII it is clear to me that you were losing patience with Ferry
above and either related or aside from that you referred to him as Samface II.

In the main it is no bad thing to be as enquiring ( and to have someone to hold
you to account ) as Ferry or Samface but Samface has a reputation ( deserved or
not ) of being a troll ( sorry samface! ) as well as asking awkward questions
repeatedly until they get an answer they are satisfied with.

Whatever respect you may or may not have for Sam right now, to ascribe to another the facets and avatar of another with a "reputation" is to give them the entire baggage of that name knowingly, in a public place.

Frankly I don't particularly care whether or not the questions get answered
but I think that ex-Viscorp people should be held to account just as much as
Amino people are online and that people should feel free to repeat the same
old tedious questions at least as many times as has been done about Amiga Inc
but hopefully they won't resort to the silly name calling tactics we have
witnessed over the last couple of years at Amino/Amiga Inc.

Same goes for ex phase-V, ex DCE. Strategies are often double edged swords.

PS while I have your attention do you remember a couple of months back there
was some adverse publicity about Pretory and how airport security in france
was staffed. Don't remember the details but I remember that your names came
up and you said that you would be dealing with the matter in court. Did that
go OK?

Its terrible when ex-company members like that guy start spewing bullshit to the
press and bring your name into disrepute to cover their own arses.
What about this? : Comment 43 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 10:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (DaveP):
Bloody konqueror!
What about this? : Comment 44 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 10:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (DaveP):
Well, that was a flurry of activity...;-)

Dave and TIm, we meant nothing bad about the "Sammy II" comment. You might guess it gets a little tedious answering the same questions over and over again... Hey, maybe Sammy #1 is turning over a new leaf! :-)

One observation: being a player on the field is alot different than watching the game from the grandstands.

Re: Pretory. All the public filings will be up to date soon. We are still very busy with the mess there. It is taking some time, but things are slowly coming around. It will all work out. The ex-Pres. is still out and we are still in...;-) Things are getting cleaned up.

Sincerely,
R&B
What about this? : Comment 45 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry (80.58.36.172) on 06-May-2003 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (bbrv):
bbrv> We call you Sammy II now...

Any pun or rudeness intended? I think I have been very polite until now.

In a previous comment you say:

"All the details were reported accurately and fully. Check your sources."

This is the first thing I have done: I have checked every single link I have found over the net regarding the question, and I have found that an explanation was not given until the Amiga-News interview, 5 or 6 years later. Of course, I can be mistaken. If so, please give some links where I can find this information, other than these two contradictory statements:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~cyberwlf/texts/press/VIScorpCacelContract.html

and

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~cyberwlf/texts/press/VISCorpStoryLiquidation.html

That´s why I posted what I found (only official statements, not opinion articles, although I found many of them), waiting for explanations from an authorized source.

bbrv> Buying Amiga Technologies was not the same as buying a few bananas. It was a bit more complicated. Here are some facts:

I can understand it was not easy, and, after reading all the information I have found and the one you have kindly posted, I can glimpse that you made your best to closed the deal the good way, despite the bad finalization, incluing personal sacrifices, like paying AT salaries from your own pocket.

Also, thank you for the facts, but they DO NOT CHANGE the fact that you CLAIMED you had bought the company IP, AT and related stuff:

From your Open Message to the Amiga Community, " 3. The final (and last of three) purchase contract was signed on Friday,19 July. It cannot be changed; it has been executed. The intellectual property of the former Commodore and the inventory of the former Amiga Technologies will be owned finally by VIScorp. The final paperwork will be completed in the next 30 days."

As far as many of us, the users, understood that was a closed deal, and I can give you MANY links of dissapointed users who thought Viscorp was the new owner of Amiga, so it's understandable that some of them are reluctant to believe statements from the person who made previous unnacurated, and later unexplained, statements.

On the other hand, I must say that, at least for me, not only words count, but facts.

Best regards,

Ferrán.

PS:
bbrv> As they greeted each other Raquel told him we could not pay more than $20 million!!! Helmut and I were shocked (that was not the plan!), but even more surprised two seconds later when Hembach said OK and ask Raquel if she wanted coffee!!!

He, he, good move :-)
What about this? : Comment 46 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Ferry):
...nobody was more disappointed than us.

Anyway, we will be is Spain this month if you still want to talk about it. Just let us know.

Sincerely,
R&B
What about this? : Comment 47 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 10:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (bbrv):
...IN Spain that is.
What about this? : Comment 48 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP (194.196.100.59) on 06-May-2003 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (bbrv):
@bbrv

I realise it is none of our business but in the future you might want to get the truth out there of what really happened to counter the bad publicity that article must have caused. If you have already got something published Id appreciate a link.
What about this? : Comment 49 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 12:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (DaveP):
Sorry Dave, it is still too early.

Eventually, all things will be known. We are actually still discovering some things.

Take care,
R&B
What about this? : Comment 50 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy (Registered user) on 06-May-2003 16:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Ferry):
One might take note of that name, Viscorp Chairman Jerome Greenberg, in

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~cyberwlf/texts/press/VIScorpCacelContract.html
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