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[Web] SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 CardANN.lu
Posted on 24-May-2003 16:43 GMT by dave@swaug.org.uk36 comments
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In our support section we have the review of Elbox's latest USB 2.0 card- the Spider II.

SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 1 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 24-May-2003 15:01 GMT
Nice little review. I also liked the review of the "pen drive" - that would be a handy thing to have. I'd seen one before being used on a PC with that dreaded "windows has found new hardware...." screen appearing. It's nice to see the Amiga's USB stack just accepts it right off instead of sending the user nuts as he trys to find his Windows install disk. :-)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 2 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Hodges on 25-May-2003 05:49 GMT
"One of the leading pioneers to bring USB to the Amiga is polish company, Elbox."

Ya, 'leading pioneers', right.

"They originally produced the first USB 2.0 card for the Amiga."

Ya, 'produced', right.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 3 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 25-May-2003 08:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Chris Hodges):
Oh give them a break - it's called marketing. Ford insist they make the best cars in the world, but we all know they drive like box-carts on square wheels.

Besides, as far as the classic Amiga is concerned, if you want PCI slots with the best support then the Mediator is your number 1 choice (regardless of your personal views about Elbox).
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 4 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Hodges on 25-May-2003 08:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Darrin):
If you do a *review*, it should be free of marketing terms, trying to as impartial as possible. Other than these two remarks, I do find it is a well done review (except for it talks about speed, but doesn't give any numbers (again!), ah yes, and misspelling my name once more, sigh).

BTW: I never mentioned the Mediator PCI board, nor was the review about this piece of hardware. So, besides that it was off-topic, I'd agree to you.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 5 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-May-2003 08:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Darrin):
@Darrin

> It's nice to see the Amiga's USB stack just accepts it right off instead of
> sending the user nuts as he trys to find his Windows install disk. :-)

Well, asking for the AmigaOS 3.9 CD would be a waste of time, since that has no USB support of any kind whatsoever.

I can criticise Windows as much as the next man, but it sounds to me like you're complaining that it supports something out of the box that AmigaOS doesn't and this is a bad thing. Or do you perhaps think that all included drivers should be installed you your hard drive whether you use them or not?
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 6 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 25-May-2003 08:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Chris Hodges):
Sorry Chris, I thought you were just having a stab at Elbox. Whenever they get mentioned there's always a few people demand that they should be tied to a pole and burned at the stake :-)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 7 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 25-May-2003 08:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Bill Hoggett):
No, what I'm suggesting is that it's a shame that Windows doesn't simply recognise types of hardware and support them without having to install a driver for that EXACT piece of hardware.

For example, I have a Castlewood Orb drive which I use on my Amigas and on my PC. I connect it to any of my Amigas and without any drivers it it recognised as a "hard drive" and I can format it and use it straight away. Now, I plug it into my PC and.... guess what!!! That's what I'm getting at. I'm not suggesting that Windows bloats itself even more by having every driver for every product already installed. Oh never mind...
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 8 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Matthew on 25-May-2003 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Chris Hodges):
@ Chris

The terms used in the review are not used lightly as "marketing hot air". Elbox, love them or hate them, pioneered PCI technology for the Amiga- something that has lengthened the Classic Amiga's life. Granted they didn't make the USB 2.0 card or probably even write the drivers internally. They did have the foresight to commission this technology, test it and distribute it. If they didn't we have to wait for an OpenPCI alternative which being a non-commericial activity takes time to come to the Amiga market- so we'd probably still be waiting for USB 2.0. As it stands we have USB 2.0 now due to Elbox.

Perhaps you are right: we should have kept it free from marketing and as impartial as possible. Our positive comments about your product and plug for your distributors maybe should be removed ;-D

BTW: I've amended your name in the reviews.

Matthew
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 9 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-May-2003 09:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Darrin):
@Darrin,

> No, what I'm suggesting is that it's a shame that Windows doesn't simply
> recognise types of hardware and support them without having to install a
> driver for that EXACT piece of hardware.

You'll probably find that it does in most cases, although it will still identify the hardware individually.

> For example, I have a Castlewood Orb drive which I use on my Amigas and on my
> PC.

That'll be a SCSI one, right?

> I connect it to any of my Amigas and without any drivers it it recognised
> as a "hard drive" and I can format it and use it straight away. Now, I plug
> it into my PC and.... guess what!!!

Has it crossed your mind that Windows might be installing removable media support? As in "removable media" being treated differently from a permanently connected "hard drive"?

Last time I checked, AmigaOS support for removable media was virtually non-existent, with the exception of a few utils for ZIP drives. Sure, your media is recognised as a hard drive out of the box, but it ain't recognised as removable media. Depending on your SCSI card and driver you may be able to detect media changes, or you may not.

> That's what I'm getting at. I'm not suggesting that Windows bloats itself
> even more by having every driver for every product already installed. Oh
> never mind...

Everything comes at a price. AmigaOS does away with the need to supply specific drivers by not supporting hardware specific features.

WRT Elbox, the criticism is well deserved. They have marketed a product at a certain price without specifying that you need to buy another product separately for it to be of any use. This means Chris has been getting frustrated e-mails from users who have bought the Spider and see no reason why they should cough up again before they can make use of it. For Amithlon users it was even worse: the Spider needs an updated system library (powerpci.library) which at the time Elbox launched and advertised the card was not publically available. This has since been remedied by the author making the library available for download, but it doesn't change the fact that Elbox made no effort to ensure their customers knew exactly what they would be getting, and what they would NOT be getting. It's natural to assume that whan you buy something that has been advertised for your system it will come with all the drivers and libraries that are needed for it to work. This is a philosophy Elbox clearly don't abide by, as they regularly expect you to buy additional software from third parties to run their hardware, even though that's never mentioned in advertisements.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 10 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 25-May-2003 10:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
> You'll probably find that it does in most cases, although it will still
> identify the hardware individually.

No in the case of my Orb drive it doesn't. It's completely useless without it's driver disk on a PC regarless of whether it's connected to my SCSI port or USB.

> That'll be a SCSI one, right?

It's a SCSI/USB model. I bought it a (very) long time ago to use with my A3000 (via the SCSI port) and to provide a bit of extra room on an old laptop of mine (via the USB port) as well as for backing up my A1200 and various PC's (I didn't have a wireless network set up back then so only a few of my PC's were connecetd via trailing cables that I kept promising to install in the wall cavities).

> Has it crossed your mind that Windows might be installing removable media
> support? As in "removable media" being treated differently from a permanently
> connected "hard drive"?

More removeable media support? The fact that it already has drivers to treat my Zip drive as removeable media, my flash card as removeable media and my CD-RW as removeable media isn't enough for it? ;-) No, it hadn't.

> Last time I checked, AmigaOS support for removable media was virtually non-
> existent, with the exception of a few utils for ZIP drives. Sure, your media
> is recognised as a hard drive out of the box, but it ain't recognised as
> removable media. Depending on your SCSI card and driver you may be able to
> detect media changes, or you may not.

Like I said, I mainly use it on my A3000 and I'm fairly sure it recognises a change of cartridge with having to manualy remount it... but I'm not 100% certain. I'd check it, but as I'm currently in West Africa and my Amigas are in the USA then it will have to wait. I don't trust my wife to power up my 'miggy for me and check as she hate computers and I'm not sure how many pieces I've left my Amiga in before I left...

That raises an interesting point. Why doesn't somebody design a cheap AmigaOne tower case that doesn't come with a cover as most Amiga users rarely have it installed or if they do, it doesn't stay on for long. ;-)

> Everything comes at a price. AmigaOS does away with the need to supply
> specific drivers by not supporting hardware specific features.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Windows hater. It's just that BASIC support for a plug in drive that doesn't require hunting for disks is handy when you're trying to hook a drive up to someone elses computer just copy over some files. Of course, with CD-RW's and DVD-RW's flooding the market, the need to cart a removeable drive around has practically vanished. The Pen-Drive comes in handy for the few files (Excel, Word, Power Point, a demo, data file, etc)that doesn't fit on a floppy (what does these days?).

> WRT Elbox, the criticism is well deserved. They have marketed a product... etc

Well we all know the failings of Elbox's PR department. There was also a time, if I remember right, that the USB stack came with Elbox's product, but it was Chris himself (for whatever reason) who stopped Elbox shipping it with their product. The fact that you feel that Elbox don't make it crystal clear about what "extras" are needed to run their hardware is simply due to the fact that the majority Amiga users already know about the product and any limitations from hanging around groups like this. It's not like Mediator purchasers are getting their kit by walking into Circuit City and picking it off a shelf where they can read the instructions on the box. Hell, there's enough badly boxed PC hardware out there which doesn't exactly conform to "clear labeling" when it comes to their product information.

Anyway, if you can afford to expand a classic Amiga then sending Chris his $19.99 (or whatever it costs) to register his invaluable product is not going to break the bank and I hope that's what Mediator users are doing and not downloading cracked versions.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 11 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-May-2003 10:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Darrin):
@Darrin

> There was also a time, if I remember right, that the USB stack came with
> Elbox's product, but it was Chris himself (for whatever reason) who stopped
> Elbox shipping it with their product.

The *unregistered* stack was included, yes, but never a registered version. Elbox never agreed to license it themselves and ship it with their products, which is the same attitude they took regarding P96. Elbox' drivers may NEED this software in order to function, but Elbox feel it is not their responsibility to provide it. This actually goes a lot further than the "PR department", right the way to "core company policy".

Chris removed the permission to include the stack at all after Elbox were found to be infecting their drivers with trojans, which indirectly involved Chris' software in an illegal activity. There's more to it than that, but the details of the whole story are available in public archives, I'm sure.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 12 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Matthew on 25-May-2003 10:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Darrin):
I've read various comments from people miffed about paying Chris for Poseidon. Here's my take on the matter:-

* Amiga market is a small niche market- we all know this. Chris' development time should be rewarded. Asking 19.99 for Poseidon is not much to ask when you consider that the product is of high quality. This is the most polished of the Amiga USB stacks available. It is ridiculous for people to expect this product to be free with Poseidon.

* Elbox detail on their website that Poseidon is required, I quote from the marketing blurb ( http://www.elbox.com/news_03_04_08.html ) :-

"Amiga support works under the Poseidon stack"
and
"CD with Mediator and Amithlon EHCI (USB 2.0) drivers for Poseidon"

This seems clear to me that you will require Poseidon to operate the Spider.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 13 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 25-May-2003 10:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Bill Hoggett):
> The *unregistered* stack was included, yes, but never a registered version.
> Elbox never agreed to license it themselves and ship it with their products,
> which is the same attitude they took regarding P96. Elbox' drivers may NEED
> this software in order to function, but Elbox feel it is not their
> responsibility to provide it. This actually goes a lot further than the "PR
> department", right the way to "core company policy".

Ah, I'd assumed that Elbox and Chris had reached an agreement to ship a registered stack and that the deal had fallen apart over the Elbox "protection" in their drivers.

However, surely Elbox's decision to distrubute the unregistered version of the USB stack WITH their product was good news for Chris as it place his product directly into the hands of the consumer so all they had to do was register it rather than have to hunt it down and download it. Let's face it, if you're going to have to download the whole thing then there might be a temptation to simply download a cracked version instead.

The P96 move was also a fair one in my opinion as P96 is not essential for Mediator operation so why should the user AHVE to pay for it with the product? Besides, it was possible that the user had already registered it before (so why pay for it again) or wanted to use CGX drivers instead. Of course, I'm sure that nearly all Mediator users have a graphics card installed and are using P96 and I hope that they have all paid a registration fee.

> Chris removed the permission to include the stack at all after Elbox were
> found to be infecting their drivers with trojans, which indirectly involved
> Chris' software in an illegal activity. There's more to it than that, but the
> details of the whole story are available in public archives, I'm sure.

I remember this little "incident" well. Quite frankly, I have no problems with someone trying to protect his software/driver and if that means installing code that wipes a prirate's hard drive then that's fine by me. Quite frankly, with the level of piracy that goes on in the Amiga market, if I depended on the earning from Amiga software then I'd be releasing fake "warez" versions of my software on the net specifically designed to "take down" the hardware of whoever downloads it. However, as we live in a society that lives to download mp3 files and pirate versions of the latest movies on VCD, I doubt that many people are going to agree with me on this ;-)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 14 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-May-2003 11:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Darrin):
> Ah, I'd assumed that Elbox and Chris had reached an agreement to ship a
> registered stack and that the deal had fallen apart over the Elbox
> "protection" in their drivers.

No that was the agreement over the "unregistered" stack.

> However, surely Elbox's decision to distrubute the unregistered version of
> the USB stack WITH their product was good news for Chris as it place his
> product directly into the hands of the consumer so all they had to do was
> register it rather than have to hunt it down and download it.

???

Considering that the Elbox drivers don't work with anything else, how was this deal particularly advantageous to Chris?

> Let's face it, if you're going to have to download the whole thing then
> there might be a temptation to simply download a cracked version instead.

Cracked versions aren't as easily available as the legit one, so if you're going to go to the effort of locating a cracked version, you'll do so because you don't want to pay, not because you have to download it.

If you really want to discourage piracy, you supply a fully licensed version. It's simple, it's clean, it avoids hassle and it doesn't pass on the buck to the customer. That's why Amithlon and Amiga Forever come with fully licensed P96, and why Umilator would have done the same had it been released.

> The P96 move was also a fair one in my opinion as P96 is not essential for
> Mediator operation so why should the user AHVE to pay for it with the product?

You have to pay for a bunch of drivers on the Mediator CD, don't you, whether you use them or not? Seems to lack a bit of consistency there.

> Besides, it was possible that the user had already registered it before (so
> why pay for it again)

a lame cop-out excuse

> or wanted to use CGX drivers instead.

AFAIK, only one PCI card, the VirgeDX, was supported via CGX drivers, and Elbox didn't write those anyway. The Voodoo cards all needed P96.

> Of course, I'm sure that nearly all Mediator users have a graphics card
> installed and are using P96 and I hope that they have all paid a registration
> fee.

Various threads on the Mediator mailing list tend to show that not to be true. Most Mediator users feel that having bought the Mediator, the MMCD and the gfx card they have paid their dues and do not need to pay more. After all, their hardware works, doesn't it? The excuse that "P96 aren't supporting their customers" from people who never even registered P96 is a common one.

> I doubt that many people are going to agree with me on this ;-)

It's not because people support piracy that they won't agree with you. It's because enforcing the law is not an excuse for breaking it. That's why killing someone who stole your wallet still amounts to murder. Law enforcement is the job of those bodies empowered to do so according to the laws of the countries they operate it, not an excuse for illegal practices employed by a bunch of cowboy practitioners. No one is entitled to break the law to "protect" themselves.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 15 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by rez on 25-May-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Darrin):
What you want to do is illegal in most countries.
(in France for instance)
Believe me or not but one can't do his own justice, even if he suffers from piracy :

(illegal x illegal) != legal.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 16 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Hodges on 25-May-2003 11:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Matthew):
@Matthew:

> The terms used in the review are not used lightly as "marketing hot air".
> Elbox, love them or hate them, pioneered PCI technology for the Amiga-

Yes, they might have pioneered PCI technology to the Classic systems. But
they did NOT pioneer USB support for the Classic Amiga Systems. E3B
invented, designed, built, manufactured and (after a slight delay) sold the
first publically available USB solution for the Amiga Classic, far before
any Spider saw the light of day. It was a lot of effort, it was not a
rebadged PCI board, but a handcrafted piece of creativity.

Therefore I *do* get a bit annoyed, if you say Elbox pioneered the USB
technology for the Classic systems. They didn't. All they did was writing a
proprietary driver for one chipset and locked it to a specific low-budget
hardware that they could sell to the end user.

> If they didn't we have to wait for an OpenPCI alternative

Which will come -- but only to non-Mediator users as there is no OpenPCI
support for Mediator due to political reasons.

> As it stands we have USB 2.0 now due to Elbox.

USB2.0 on a bottle neck bus system that would put the inventors of USB2.0
ashame. 2-3% of the theoretical limit is worth mentioning, don't you think?

> Perhaps you are right: we should have kept it free from marketing and as
> impartial as possible. Our positive comments about your product and plug
> for your distributors maybe should be removed ;-D

I just wanted you to stay to the facts. Of course, you could remove all the
comments about my product and see what's left of the review ;-D

"The spider comes with a CD with a low-level hardware driver, which you are
strongly recommended to update." ;)

> BTW: I've amended your name in the reviews.

Thx ;)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 17 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Hodges on 25-May-2003 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Matthew):
@Matthew:

> Elbox detail on their website that Poseidon is required, I quote from the
> marketing blurb ( http://www.elbox.com/news_03_04_08.html ) :-
>
> "Amiga support works under the Poseidon stack" and "CD with Mediator and
> Amithlon EHCI (USB 2.0) drivers for Poseidon"
>
> This seems clear to me that you will require Poseidon to operate the Spider.
 
Call me stupid, but I don't see anything indicating that the software
included will not work without registering Poseidon. Do you really assume
that the normal user, who doesn't have a clue about the USB software issue
would indeed expect that he or she needs to buy some additional licence
with "Amiga support works under the Poseidon stack". Somebody who never
heard of Poseidon? Come on.
 

I still think information is omitted on purpose. In fact, I had several
emails who did not know about this *after* they bought their Spider. And of
course they get easily angry about that, because they feel a bit cheated
on. And IMHO they're right.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 18 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Matthew on 25-May-2003 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Chris Hodges):
@Chris

You have a valid point- Elbox should either state that the Spider comes with a demo version of Poseidon or alternative state that a registered version is required for full operatibility.

Matthew
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 19 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 25-May-2003 16:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Bill Hoggett):
> If you really want to discourage piracy, you supply a fully licensed version.
> It's simple, it's clean, it avoids hassle and it doesn't pass on the buck to
> the customer. That's why Amithlon and Amiga Forever come with fully licensed
> P96, and why Umilator would have done the same had it been released.

In the case of the Spider which is useless without Chris' stack then this is fair enough, but I already have a licensed version of P96 so why should I have to pay again with the purchase of a Mediator if the cost was included in the price? The same conditions could apply to someone upgrading from a Spider to a Spider 2 if the price was included in the cost of both the Spider 1 & 2. The best solution for everybody is if all future versions of AmigaOS contain a USB stack as standard and it's licensed directly from the author.

> You have to pay for a bunch of drivers on the Mediator CD, don't you, whether
> you use them or not? Seems to lack a bit of consistency there.

Your Mediator comes with the latest drivers, doesn't it? Obtaining the latest drivers involves a purchase of a CD... or am I wrong?

> a lame cop-out excuse

No, it's a perfectly valid reason. Of course, if you like paying for things over and over then feel free to register products you have purchased as many times as you like. This is why printers don't come packaged with printer cables.

> AFAIK, only one PCI card, the VirgeDX, was supported via CGX drivers, and
> Elbox didn't write those anyway. The Voodoo cards all needed P96.

I know this was a feeble example. :-)

> Of course, I'm sure that nearly all Mediator users have a graphics card
> installed and are using P96 and I hope that they have all paid a registration
> fee.

> Various threads on the Mediator mailing list tend to show that not to be
> true. Most Mediator users feel that having bought the Mediator, the MMCD and
> the gfx card they have paid their dues and do not need to pay more. After
> all, their hardware works, doesn't it?

And that's the fault of those Mediator users and NOT Elbox's. Perhaps we should have blamed Commodore for all of the Amiga users that pirated/cracked games and made Commodore compensate the software houses?

> The excuse that "P96 aren't supporting their customers" from people who never
> even registered P96 is a common one.

The excuse I heard was that P96 is (was) too difficult to register and no-one ever received confirmation that their money was received.

> It's not because people support piracy that they won't agree with you. It's
> because enforcing the law is not an excuse for breaking it.

But the problem is that the law is not being enforced. As a result, the pirates are having a field day (with one or two exceptions).

> That's why killing someone who stole your wallet still amounts to murder.

That's a bit of overkill, but I do feel that if someone tries to nick my wallet then he shouldn't go an blab to the cops after I've kicked the crap out of him, broken his fingers and cracked his knee-cap. Criminals need to be punished, and if the law won't do it then....

> Law enforcement is the job of those bodies empowered to do so according to
> the laws of the countries they operate it, not an excuse for illegal
> practices employed by a bunch of cowboy practitioners.

Easy for you to say, after all, it wasn't your stuff being pirated. Furthermore, it's attitudes like tis that allow piracy to spread. Sorry, but if law enforcement isn't up to the job then the individual has a right to act.

> No one is entitled to break the law to "protect" themselves.

That's the same, lame, cop-out excuse that criminals use every time they get caught by Joe Public in the act and get injured as a result. The law as it stands in most countries protects the guilt more than it protects the victim. I'm sorry, but if someone wrongs me and I can get back at him without being caught then he's going to regret the day he was born. Of course, the punishment must be in proportion to the crime and I'm not suggesting that someone gets "bottled" for taking some crisps out of your packet in a bar while you go for a pee ;-)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 20 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by bennymee on 25-May-2003 18:07 GMT
Why don't they test it with a USB 2.0 device instead of the Pendrive which is only USB1 ?

USB2.0 harddrive tests would be usefull, because how could they expect it to be faster then the original Spider when using a USB1 device ?
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 21 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by dave on 25-May-2003 19:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (bennymee):
The issue wasnt that the Spider was slower than the Spider II due to the Spider II being USB 2.0. Both cards are USB 2.0 but the NEC chipset in the Spider 1 is supposed to be 20% more efficient- all the test we did didnt show 20% more efficiency...
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 22 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 26-May-2003 04:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (dave):
> The issue wasnt that the Spider was slower than the Spider II due to the
> Spider II being USB 2.0. Both cards are USB 2.0 but the NEC chipset in the
> Spider 1 is supposed to be 20% more efficient- all the test we did didnt show
> 20% more efficiency...

I probably need to wash my mouth out with soap afte saying this, but...

If you feel that the reason there is no improvement visible with the performance between the Spider 1 and Spider II is because of the hardware limitations of the Amiga, why not install the Spider cards in a PC, download the drivers (assuming that Windows drivers were not supplied) and see if there's an improvement there.

Not that it really matters, because the card is being used in an Amiga afterall. It's more likely the case that Elbox are just using the latest chipset because it's available.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 23 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Cyril G. on 26-May-2003 07:22 GMT
And what about a test speed ? I wonder what is the max transfert speed with such board. Is it better than the Algor USB 2.0 board with no high speed mode ?
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 24 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by mboehmer on 26-May-2003 08:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Cyril G.):
Hi Cyril,

> And what about a test speed ? I wonder what is the max transfert speed with
> such board. Is it better than the Algor USB 2.0 board with no high speed
> mode ?

Nice question. Unfortunately, I can't answer it, as there are no official numbers from Elbox regarding real life transfer rates. The only numbers you can get are the theoretical values for transfers from the rebagded USB controller card to the graphic card's memory on the Mediator internal PCI bus, but no values on how fast you get in a real setup (strange, though, as Elbox claims it to be the "ground-breaking" controller, being 20% more efficient... which has been denied by the SWAUG review, btw.).
I am working as scientist in nuclear physics, and therefore I am used to prove my statements with facts, measurements and numbers before claiming anything.

Regarding the ALGOR speed, there are benchmarks on http://www.e3b.de/usb/bench_e.html, and you might take the numbers written in the PenDrive review on SWAUG as comparison (both are '040 machines, but the device under test is different). The PenDrive on Spider II reaches 760kB/s, the LaCie on the ALGOR about 920kB/s.

Hope this helps.
Michael
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 25 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Rat on 26-May-2003 09:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Cyril G.):
> And what about a test speed ? I wonder what is the max transfert
> speedwith such board. Is it better than the Algor USB 2.0 board
> with no high speed mode ?

Sure. Spider is much better than Algor. Algor is the single 3-port USB 1.1 controller only. The 5-port Spider card consists of three independent USB controllers: one USB 2.0 and two USB 1.1.

I'm using a Samsung 20GB EIDE HDD with the EIDE - USB2.0 converter connected to the Spider port. USB transfer rate in this HDD configuration is 3.2 MB/s in Mediator.

I checked this disk in a PC machine with the Spider II card. The transfer rate from this HDD in a PC was 5.2MB/s. This HDD speed was not dependent on the system, whether Spider worked under Windows 2000 or with Poseidon in Amithlon Amiga OS emulation.

Sure these speeds are much better than with Algor, not to mention Highway or Subway. Check it for yourself: http://www.e3b.de/e3b/bench_e.html
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 26 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Rat on 26-May-2003 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bill Hoggett

>The *unregistered* stack was included, yes, but never a registered
>version. Elbox never agreed to license it themselves and ship it
>with their products, which is the same attitude they took regarding P96.

It looks as you were writing about a thing of which you know nothing.

The issue of selling Poseidon with Spider was discussed in detail in the Mediator ML. Elbox clearly and openly informed why keys for Poseidon are not bundled with Spider:
'2. One of our proposal: bundling by us or by our distributors the registered version of the Poseidon stack with the USB PCI cards, was rejected by the author of the Poseidon stack. And we accepted it.'

Read the complete post here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Mediator/message/13629
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 27 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by mboehmer on 26-May-2003 15:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Rat):
Dear Mr. Rat,

> It looks as you were writing about a thing of which you know nothing.

And you are an eyewitness of this issue?

> Elbox clearly and openly informed why keys for Poseidon are not bundled with
> Spider: [...]

Audiatur et altera pars. (for the non-Latin ones: You should listen to both sides before forming an opinion an a subject).

Michael
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 28 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 27-May-2003 07:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Darrin):
>No in the case of my Orb drive it doesn't. It's completely useless without
>it's driver disk on a PC regarless of whether it's connected to my SCSI port
>or USB.

Maybe it's something weird about the drive? Maybe it uses a standard that wasn't about when the version of Windows that you run was released. I've never been asked to provide a driver disk for any of the usb, scsi or pcmcia drives that I've plugged into Windows XP. You may need to install an ASPI layer, but thats only to make the controller available to older applications.

Phill
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 29 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 27-May-2003 08:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Phill):
Hmmm... I've never tried plugging the Orb into an XP system. I'll have to give that a go.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 30 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-May-2003 18:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (mboehmer):
its a pity that this review was so light on the technical stuff. I am so
used to reading extremetech, tomshardware etc that for such
an item of hardware, i'd expect a couple of speed graphs.... perhaps
the author didnt have a reasonable collection of USB devices to do
standard tests with?
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 31 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Rat on 27-May-2003 19:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (mboehmer):
Salve Michael,

>And you are an eyewitness of this issue?

We are not talking about a road accident here but about facts, which were publicly presented by the interested parties. I have given here a link to the official information published by Elbox, where the bundle issue is explained in detail.

Bill Hoggett, whose post I responded to, stated that "Elbox never agreed to license the Poseidon stack themselves and ship it with their products."

The fact is that it is the Poseidon's author, Chris Hodges, who rejected a proposal from Elbox for bundling by Elbox or by their distributors the registered version of the Poseidon stack with the supported USB PCI cards.

Surely, Chris Hodges, who speaks in this discussion, himself should pay attention to this and other untrue claims against Elbox.
But do not count on this. This guy has not enough honour to behave this way. I know something about it. I contacted him as a seller and I know he is not fair for his clients, either.

>Audiatur et altera pars. (for the non-Latin ones: You should listen
>to both sides before forming an opinion an a subject).

I do, what about you?
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 32 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 27-May-2003 21:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Rat):
@Rat

> But do not count on this. This guy has not enough honour to behave this way.
> I know something about it. I contacted him as a seller and I know he is not
> fair for his clients, either.

Are you prepared to post factual evidence of this allegation, or are you in fact just muck-spreading as usual?

In fact, the "facts" you present are only Elbox' version of events, and thus not necessarily "the truth". Not that people like you would recognise the truth if it bit you in the backside. You've spread lies and false accusations before and I have no doubt you will continue doing so without reservation.

But then, "birds of a feather stick together", so it's hardly surprising that you suck up to Elbox like you do.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 33 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Rat on 27-May-2003 23:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Bill Hoggett):
>Are you prepared to post factual evidence of this allegation,

Yes, I do.

>or are you in fact just muck-spreading as usual?

This is your habit, not mine.

>In fact, the "facts" you present are only Elbox' version of events,
>and thus not necessarily "the truth". Not that people like you would
>recognise the truth if it bit you in the backside.

No. It is not true.
The main difference between us is that my opinions here are based on facts, yours on rumours.

>You've spread lies and false accusations before

It is untrue, insulting allegation.
Lies, false accusations, insulting posts are your own specialities.
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 34 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-May-2003 12:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Bill Hoggett):
AmigaOS 3.9 can't have support to those vecause USB driuvers were not available yet when OS3.9 was released. maybe someday we have AmigaOS/MorphOS which has usb drivers in the CD. Then we can discuss again if it's easier to use usb stack on amiga or windows :)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 35 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-May-2003 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Anonymous):
AmigaOS 3.9 can't have support to those because USB drivers were not available yet when OS3.9 was released. Maybe someday we have AmigaOS/MorphOS which has USB drivers in the CD. Then we can discuss again if it's easier to use usb stack/devices on amiga or windows :)
SWAUG.org.uk Reviews SpiderII USB 2.0 Card : Comment 36 of 36ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-May-2003 13:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (mboehmer):
Yes that is true, but you should not listen other side more than another. I mean you should not believe others just because Elbox is Elbox or because of personal opinios of Elbox.
Anonymous, there are 36 items in your selection
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