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[News] OS4.0 on tourANN.lu
Posted on 01-Jun-2003 07:48 GMT by Uros Bogataj85 comments
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On Saturday, 7th of June the tour will start in Ljubljana, Slovenia. Event will be in BOF center in BTC City, ljubljana from 11:00 AM to 7:00 PM. You are all invited to attend the event. On Saturday, 7th of June the tour will start in Ljubljana, Slovenia. Event will be in BOF center in BTC City, ljubljana from 11:00 AM to 7:00 PM. You are all invited to attend the event. The show in Slovenia being first one in a row of shows across the Europe, I hope would have to offer the same excitement and the same grade of novelty as later shows. But if not so, I'm still glad we are first to show new things and to open the tour is honour to our club - Amiga racunalniski klub D.A.D.,Kranj, Slovenia. If you already know that you would attend the show in Slovenia please visit our web site at www.amiga-klub.si and send us registration.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 1 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 01-Jun-2003 06:23 GMT
I'm gonna buy a bottle of Champagne, and time the event to my time zone, here in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, and "pop the top" at the appointed hour, minute and second!!!!

AmigaOne! And One to rule them all!!!
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 2 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 01-Jun-2003 07:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Atheist2):
AmigaOS 4 won't be running on the AmigaOne though.

The OS Four ON Tour is an A4000T with a CyberstormPPC in it.

One thing to fool them all, and in the darkness blind them..
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 3 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Ian Shurmer on 01-Jun-2003 07:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Neko):
It was always the plan to get it running on the Cyberstorm PPC first...

But then the AmigaOS4 project is a complete f*ck-up and can never be done, right Matt?!

Ian :-)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 4 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 01-Jun-2003 08:47 GMT
*Sigh* If only i could fly... :)

Someone film that event! (And better then i did in WOA ;))

Cheers,
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 5 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 01-Jun-2003 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Neko):
You'll recall ofcourse that many people claimed we couldn't even get to that stage.

We've got a complete system running on PPC, we've got the kernel running on the AmigaOne.

The hardest part is now over, from now on it's all grunt-work.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 6 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>You'll recall ofcourse that many people claimed we couldn't even get to that stage.

Many also claimed, you couldn't make AOS4 by last summer.

That, of course, was pure FUD.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 7 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 09:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
If you think you can do any better then by all means do so.

You probably wouldn't even know where to begin.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 8 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 01-Jun-2003 09:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
So? What exactly is your point?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 9 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 01-Jun-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Neko):
"The OS Four ON Tour is an A4000T with a CyberstormPPC in it."

I hope that aged computer will survive the tour without developing some incurable hardware fault.

Is there a spare CyberstormPPC on hand?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 10 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by tired on 01-Jun-2003 10:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"running on ppc" : people will have to buy 4k's and cyberstorm to make
it run, or they will be able to make it run on their blizzards
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 11 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Gerrit on 01-Jun-2003 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (tired):
Latest rumours have it that they can't get it to run on blizzards.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 12 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 01-Jun-2003 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Gerrit):
Nonsense. We haven't even tried yet.

It is just question of adapting the ExecSG HAL for the BlizzardPPC.

Thomas Frieden could do that in under 10 days but we can't spare him for 10 days right now.

Besides, the real challengde of the BlizzardPPC is not so much the BlizzardPPC itself as the countless hardware hacks which could potentially break under the new OS and which would require extensive testing.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 13 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Carsten on 01-Jun-2003 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello Ben,

One question: As the blizzard have no UBoot firmware and did not have to pass AInc's quality assurance procedures, could this mean you can provide OS4 for pegasos owners in less than 10 days, too?

The reason I am asking is because I own a pegasos myself but am rather unlucky with MOS and the way how updates (there are none) are handled and am hoping to get a decent OS for this excellent hardware.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 14 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 10:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
>If you think you can do any better then by all means do so.

I could - I could think of realistic deadline (or better, no deadline)

>You probably wouldn't even know where to begin.

Yep, that would be possible too. In that case, I wouldn't even announce starting project.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 15 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 01-Jun-2003 11:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Carsten):
"One question: As the blizzard have no UBoot firmware and did not have to pass AInc's quality assurance procedures, could this mean you can provide OS4 for pegasos owners in less than 10 days, too?"

There is quite a list of platforms that AOS 4 could be ported to: AmigaOne, Blizzard, Shark, similar card for Prometheus, Pegasos, Mac. I don't know how many "ten days"s Thomas has available. It all costs money.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 16 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Don Cox):
..but let's guess that cyberstormppc->blizzardppc and amigaone->pegasos are the two cheapest options (in that order I guess)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 17 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 12:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>We've got a complete system running on PPC, we've got the kernel running on the AmigaOne.

Well done, Hyperion! You guys (Hyperion & external developers) rock :)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 18 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 01-Jun-2003 12:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Carsten):
Given enough dox, the machinery & money, yea, they could do it.

However, since there are only 600 or so Pegasos board in rotation, someone would have to fork out the cash to justify it i guess (plus there's that licencing involved wich i won't even begin to discuss)

Cheers
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 19 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 14:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>You'll recall ofcourse that many people claimed we couldn't even get to that
>stage.

No, many people claimed you couldn't do what you planned in the announced time-frame. And many people were right.
I'm sure very few thought you could never do it. Something about monkeys and typewriters comes to mind.

>We've got a complete system running on PPC, we've got the kernel running on
>the AmigaOne.
>
>The hardest part is now over, from now on it's all grunt-work.

Two more weeks, right? ;)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 20 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 14:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Nonsense. We haven't even tried yet.
>
>It is just question of adapting the ExecSG HAL for the BlizzardPPC.
>
>Thomas Frieden could do that in under 10 days but we can't spare him for 10
>days right now.

So, converting to earth-days, that would be about what, 2 months? ;)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 21 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 01-Jun-2003 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Ian Shurmer):
I agree, so far it's been a complete mess, wonderful that they are finally able to show a pre-alpha/incomplete version after 3 years, since it was announced, running on legacy hardware, what an accomplishment.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 22 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 01-Jun-2003 14:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Please Stop, you sound like a broken record, shut up and come out with a product, that's the best way to answer your critics.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 23 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Darren on 01-Jun-2003 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben, don't you think getting Petunia running is going to be a big task?
Just curious. Also how long do you think it will take to convert all libraries etc. to ppc?

Good luck on OS 4, I anxiously await it!
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 24 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 01-Jun-2003 16:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (MIKE):
"Please Stop, you sound like a broken record, shut up and come out with a product, that's the best way to answer your critics."

Isn't that precisely what they are doing next week?

I would think that all the people who bought CyberstormPPCs will be very pleased to get a PPC-only version of AmigaOS. Obviously the AmigaOne owners are still waiting, but the Cyberstorm version alone is a major accomplishment.

The only pity is that so many PPC cards disappeared into the black hole of DCE.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 25 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 01-Jun-2003 16:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (MIKE):
Hyerion signed the agreement with Amiga in November of 2001.

That's not even 2 years.

Meanwhile all the functionality originally planned for 4.2 has been folded into 4.0.

And yes, OS 4 is now alpha with beta to follow soon.

We're making your nightmare come true.

Deal with it.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 26 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 01-Jun-2003 16:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
*ALL* the functionality of 4.2? Are you sure you want that quote on record? I mean I hope its true, but I can't help feeling you meant "most" :)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 27 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Paul on 01-Jun-2003 16:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> And yes, OS 4 is now alpha with beta to follow soon.
>
> We're making your nightmare come true.
>
> Deal with it.

Do you think this kind of language is clever to use? Personally I find this pathetic.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 28 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 01-Jun-2003 16:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Ian Shurmer):
Sure the plan was Cyberstorm first.

That doesn't warrant lines from "Atheist2" like "AmigaOne! And One to rule them
all!!!"

AmigaOne doesn't come into it.

As for AmigaOS 4.x being a fuck up and never can be done, I never said that.

I said, 20 months ago when Ben Hermans announced at the Koln show:

.. that they'd never have it done by February like he said

.. the emulator they were using was lame, and to integrate it into the project
would take them a year, and not "a couple of weeks".

.. PowerOpen ABI sucked (which Hauesser vehemently disagreed with, but since
has been dropped like a stone)

.. and with coders like that (hello Steffen), they are doomed to failure and
a batch of crappy Hyperion-oriented APIs.

Since then I've been proved right, I think, from what I've seen of the Friedens
languishing over it on newsgroups and forums, and Hauessers wonderful WarpInput
idea that's already 3 years old...

Neko
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 29 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 17:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Neko):
http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1053661038&category=forum&start=1&94#message50

??
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 30 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 01-Jun-2003 17:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"Yes everything is 68K binary at the moment (except for ExecSG and the 68K emulator) but with a pure GCC compilable source base, we can now start moving it over to PPC native binaries"
(From CAM).

Sorry but is this meant to sound promising?
"We can now START moving it over to PPC native binaries"? Start? You havent even started migrating things to PPC? What have you been telling us for the last months?

Everything apart from Exec is still 68k and you're claiming near Beta status?

You do know what the definition of Beta is, right?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 31 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Jun-2003 17:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (darklite):
You're a fool if you refer to the AmigaOS4 development team as monkeys with typerwriters.

I simply can't believe the impudence of some people.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 32 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Jun-2003 17:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Lando):
Do you know what "all hardware dependencies has been removed and rewritten in C" means?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 33 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 17:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Paul):
>> And yes, OS 4 is now alpha with beta to follow soon.
>>
>> We're making your nightmare come true.
>>
>> Deal with it.
>
>Do you think this kind of language is clever to use? Personally I find this >pathetic.

I think I heard this one in a Schwarzenegger movie ;)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 34 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 17:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (samface):
>You're a fool if you refer to the AmigaOS4 development team as monkeys with
>typerwriters.

I meant to say that *anyone* could develop OS4, given enough time, in theory.
I myself am pretty sure Hyperion can finish a pretty decent AmigaOS 4, provided they are given a reasonable amount of time (and the money to survive until then). It's just that the announced deadline was hilarious, and still the ego's at Hyperion can't seem to admit to that.

>I simply can't believe the impudence of some people.

Impudence? Are you trying to impress me with classy words or is it just because I'm not a native speaker? :)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 35 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Jun-2003 17:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Lando):
To clarify what I just said; the custom hardware dependencies is what used to make AmigaOS unable to compile for PPC. Thanks to the efforts of the AmigaOS4 development team, that is no longer an obsticle. Not only have they done this, but they have also completed implementing all the features planned for AmigaOS4 as stated in the AmigaOS4 feature list. This means that the rest is a matter of pressing the "compile" button and start debugging. A development project that has entered the debugging phase is the definition of beeing in "Beta" status.

I hope that helps, cheers!
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 36 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 01-Jun-2003 17:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (darklite):
Another Swarzenegger line: It is noot a tuumooaaa ;-)
(Kindergarden Cop)

Back to OS4, I am looking forward to read some impressions from visitors to the different shows. Will applications run on it as well, or is it just the OS alone?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 37 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 17:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (samface):
>To clarify what I just said; the custom hardware dependencies is what used to
>make AmigaOS unable to compile for PPC. Thanks to the efforts of the AmigaOS4
>development team, that is no longer an obsticle. Not only have they done this,
>but they have also completed implementing all the features planned for
>AmigaOS4 as stated in the AmigaOS4 feature list. This means that the rest is a
>matter of pressing the "compile" button and start debugging. A development
>project that has entered the debugging phase is the definition of beeing
>in "Beta" status.

No, if OS4 would be running on PPC, then it would be in beta. Now if you would say the 68k version is in beta, I'd be happier to agree.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 38 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 18:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (darklite):
addendum:
"[21:57] -kai:#amiga- (beta version): The final trial version before the first commercial launch. The initial trial version before beta is called alpha version"
And another explanation (though not 100% in agreement with the above): http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_stage

Is OS4 near release then? Place your bets, gentlemen.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 39 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Jun-2003 18:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (darklite):
>It's just that the announced deadline was hilarious, and still the ego's at
>Hyperion can't seem to admit to that.

I'm not sure it was Hyperion that announced that "deadline" (I would refer to it as an estimate rather than a "deadline"). However, changes in the planned features and unexpected health as well as financial problems have slowed them down quite a bit. I find it rather petty of you to keep hanging on to such unfortunate events and it seems that you are looking for someone to blame these unfortunate events for rather than simply beeing happy about the fact that this is now a part of the past.

>>I simply can't believe the impudence of some people.
>
>Impudence? Are you trying to impress me with classy words or is it just
>because I'm not a native speaker? :)

I didn't know the word was "classy" so I guess I must have succeeded in impressing you. ;-)

But then, English isn't my native language either so you might be right, perhaps it is a "classy" word.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 40 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 01-Jun-2003 18:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (samface):
>>It's just that the announced deadline was hilarious, and still the ego's at
>>Hyperion can't seem to admit to that.
>
>I'm not sure it was Hyperion that announced that "deadline" (I would refer to
>it as an estimate rather than a "deadline").

Ok, estimate. The point is that it was *WAY* off. I've got no problem with a mis-calculation like that.
What bothers me is that they keep saying "soon", getting people's hopes up, and again disappointing by further "unexpected" delays.
How hard can it be to announce a *safe* estimate after so many times?

>However, changes in the planned features and unexpected health as well as
>financial problems have slowed them down quite a bit.

Unexpected financial problems? But, they know this is the Amiga market, don't they?

>I find it rather petty of you to keep hanging on to such
>unfortunate events and it seems that you are looking for someone to blame
>these unfortunate events for rather than simply beeing happy about the fact
>that this is now a part of the past.

Sorry, but I don't think this is "part of the past" already. I expect it will take Hyperion at least another 6 months to finish the project. That is, if they want to release a quality product (more or less bug-free).

Yet, they act like it can be released any day now.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 41 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Jun-2003 18:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (darklite):
If the new version of the AmigaOS source code is completely made in C and is 100% GCC compliant, the recompile for PPC should be a rather easy task in comparison to what they have accomplished so far. Remember that ExecSG is already running on PPC, meaning that the rest of the AmigaOS sources should be rather hardware independant thanks to the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer).

I'm not a developer myself but I think my above reasoning makes sence.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 42 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Jun-2003 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (darklite):
>How hard can it be to announce a *safe* estimate after so many times?

They did. "When it's done", remember?

All they are saying now is that they are getting closer, carefully without mentioning any specific timeframes. This is because people is requesting this information and because it's true. It's true because they are making progress and they are getting closer to a release, saying something else would be telling a lie. You see, if they wouldn't be getting closer to the release, progress would have to come to a complete stop.

Not only do they tell us that they are making progress, they are telling us what has been completed so far in a very detailed manner, far more detailed than Microsoft would ever tell you about their next version of Windows. For those with some knowledge about these kind of software projects, it gives you some idea about how far they have come and how much they have yet to accomplish. I find this approach to be far more better than giving any timeframe estimates.

Complaining about them not telling us everything or beeing dishonest is the last thing I would do. Beeing able to monitor the progress of a commercial software development project such as this is *extremely* rare, is there any way of pleasing people like you at all?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 43 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Paul H on 01-Jun-2003 18:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (darklite):
I just want to say "Well done", to all those who are making OS4 happen. When it's out, it's out - and I'll enjoy it then! Cheers guys.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 44 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by volmer on 01-Jun-2003 19:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"The hardest part is now over, from now on it's all grunt-work."

Grunt-work is tedious. Unless you have a lot of grunts, and provisions enough to feed them, of course.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 45 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Uros Bogataj on 01-Jun-2003 19:58 GMT
You are all way off from the main topic here, which is OS4.0 on tour, not the AOS4.0 deadlines or release dates or developmet stages etc. Further comments should be oriented on tour itself. Please. BTW - anyone wanna come to Slovenia?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 46 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 01-Jun-2003 20:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Uros Bogataj):
I'd love to, but it's quite far away from my door, i'll wait for the AO4 tour to be nearer to Belgium :)

Cheers,
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 47 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 01-Jun-2003 20:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Uros Bogataj):
"BTW - anyone wanna come to Slovenia?"

I would love to go there but it's bit to far away and I haven't got either the time or money right now :)

Might be going to the Gothenborg show as it's only 4 hours from here by car.

But I guess Denmark will have some OS4 presentation too at some point in the near future;)
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 48 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Jun-2003 20:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (samface):
One definetely can tell that you're not a developer. Even your definition of "beta" is hilarious.
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 49 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by Faggotboy on 01-Jun-2003 23:32 GMT
How many new AmiNet Tools will AmigaOS 4.0 contain this time ? Will it be another enchanced Share-/Freeware compilation that we gonna need to pay a lot for ?
OS4.0 on tour : Comment 50 of 85ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Jun-2003 00:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (darklite):
>No, if OS4 would be running on PPC, then it would be in beta. Now if you would
>say the 68k version is in beta, I'd be happier to agree.

Neither I or Ben Hermans claimed that they would be in beta status *now*, just that they will be soon. I find it plausible considering that all preparations for recompiling to PPC has been made (i.e. all custom hardware dependancies has been removed, everything in 68k assembly has been rewritten in C, ExecSG is now complete and runs natively on PPC).
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