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[News] Pegasos II price!ANN.lu
Posted on 04-Jun-2003 15:17 GMT by Alkis Tsapanidis (Edited on 2003-06-04 17:45:37 GMT by Christophe Decanini)154 comments
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The Pegasos II price has now been announced.
The options are the following: G3 at 299 and G4 at 499 (Tax excl.).
Additionally there's the option to exchange the Pegasos1 with a
Pegasos 2 with a G4 at the expense of 200E or buy the G4 card alone
at the same price.

More info at: MorphOS-News.de
Pegasos II price! : Comment 1 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Dan Andersson on 04-Jun-2003 13:25 GMT
Looks like Eyetech could learn something here

Dan Andersson
Pegasos II price! : Comment 2 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by yoodoo on 04-Jun-2003 13:38 GMT
What, like how to subsidise a niche, hobbyist machine so that no profits are made?

We all know BB has big wads of cash that he's ready to splash around in order to build up the Pegasos developer-base. He's gambling that enough people will eventually be interested so that a proper production-run can be ordered that will lower the cost. Eyetech don't have that sort of free capital to undercut the real cost of the A1 boards, so the price paid represents the real costs involved with reasonable profit margin.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 3 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Gareth Knight on 04-Jun-2003 13:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
Moderators, please change the MorphZone link. It points to http://www.ann.lu/www.morphos-news.de.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 4 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 04-Jun-2003 13:43 GMT
What is the upgrade cost if you get the G4 card in July and then trade in your Pegasos + G3 for the Pegasos 2 when available?
Pegasos II price! : Comment 5 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Dan Andersson on 04-Jun-2003 13:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
Is it my problem that Eyetech can't make a good deal to the guys who explores a new platform?

Dan Andersson
Pegasos II price! : Comment 6 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 04-Jun-2003 13:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
You're guessing, making the same accusations that Atari did to Sony when the Playstation was released. But Atari mis-calculated, accusing Sony of selling at a loss when in fact Sony had gotten a better part supplier, allowing them to cut their production costs dramatically, thereby allowing the price which undercut Atari's Jaguar and helped place Sony in the #1 game console spot.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 7 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 04-Jun-2003 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Nate Downes):
That and the Jaguar sucked.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 8 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 04-Jun-2003 14:00 GMT
What does it matter to the user if this pricing means a loss for the comapany of
not(unless you are concerned over their survival)? It's just to wait and see
when the boards are released.
On the other hand it would be wrong to from this automatically assume that Eyetech in turn is somehow taking out
an excessive profit on the AmigaOne - that would be only guesswork (And I
personally believe this not to be the case).

At any rate, this is very aggressive pricing for this market. Good for Genesi.
.
SlimJim
Pegasos II price! : Comment 9 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 04-Jun-2003 14:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
"We all know BB has big wads of cash that he's ready to splash around in order to build up the Pegasos developer-base."

You say that like it's a BAD thing. When REALLY it is what is needed to make better products quicker, and survive while doing it. Without requiring what might be described as repeated mercy or charity f**cks from the community.


"Eyetech don't have that sort of free capital to undercut the real cost of the A1 boards, so the price paid represents the real costs involved with reasonable profit margin."

You might also want to try: One company has good hardware engineers and the other one doesn't, making it possible for that one company to learn quickly from THEIR OWN custom designs, and actually apply that design skill toward future products - all the while exploring methods to manufacture for less while increasing the capabilities of the product line.

That, and one company earlier this year partnered with a company that has an extensive manufacturing campus and can get better parts prices because of other markets they play in.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 10 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 04-Jun-2003 14:19 GMT
Hey, i'm really impressed that they can ship them at that price (if they do actually ship at that price). If OS4 was slated for it, i'd definately buy one.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 11 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 04-Jun-2003 14:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
"We all know BB has big wads of cash that he's ready to splash around in order to build up the Pegasos developer-base. "

Good point. we should only invest our futures in garage run businesses run by people wearing a barrel. :)
Pegasos II price! : Comment 12 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jun-2003 14:23 GMT
I'm sure they loose money if the price is like that. it's just a trick to make people buy Atari instead of Amiga. They will make price higher as soon as they it's okay for them.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 13 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 04-Jun-2003 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
Actually has NOTHING to do with "big wads of cash." It has to do with the component and assembly costs which are low enough so that Genesi can still make a decent profit and support selected Resellers with ample margins to run their businesses.

We will continue to have special developer programs to be offered through Phoenix with a portion of the profit staying there to fund Phoenix.

We have been trying to explain this for awhile...it is the advantage of being able to do everything youself...;-)

Best regards,
Raquel and Bill
Pegasos II price! : Comment 14 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 04-Jun-2003 14:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
ROFL!
Pegasos II price! : Comment 15 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Jun-2003 14:29 GMT
The numbers are pretty meaningless if you ask me.

No specification of the G4 or G3 used?

Does the price including VAT and dealer-margin?
Pegasos II price! : Comment 16 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Jun-2003 14:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Why not check the orgininal source to which is linked at the end of the news
before posting questions? At least one of them got answered.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 17 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 04-Jun-2003 14:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
The VAT is not included as the VAT is variable depending on the country.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 18 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Jun-2003 14:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"No specification of the G4 or G3 used?

Does the price including VAT and dealer-margin?"

It would be surprising if the G3 was not 600MHz as in the current Pegasos. For the G4, it says "entry model", which implies the cheapest version available.

It says the prices are excluding VAT. No mention of dealer discounts.

IIRC the current model has already been sold for $299, so no change there. The price is still high compared to a routine Athlon-based motherboard.

IMO they have work to do if they are to get the prices down to a competitive level for the consumer market.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 19 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by hgm on 04-Jun-2003 14:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Excellent question. Could be a question of a lawyer.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 20 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 04-Jun-2003 14:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Ben Hermans/Hyperion :
>The numbers are pretty meaningless if you ask me.

Har-har. A mantra one can repeat when everyone knows all but the blindest fanatics are concerned by price/performance ratio. I mean, there's a world of cheap hardware out there, and there is a reason to want to get beyond the amigaland ghetto. So prices must be chopped!


>Does the price including VAT and dealer-margin?

It probably even includes the T-shirt.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 21 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 04-Jun-2003 14:51 GMT
Damn, almost makes my wanna sell this XP2100+, 512MB ddr pc2700, 2*80GB machine just because =P

Nice price, will the pegasos2 support ddr?
Pegasos II price! : Comment 22 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 04-Jun-2003 14:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hi Ben, have not seen you here for a while. Hope you are doing well!

The G3 continues to be the same as we are selling now.

The G4 will depend on the price/performance of the three new Motorola samples we will be using to prototype next week: 1GHz, 1.2GHz and 1.3GHz. We will see which one works the best!

Taxes/VAT and shipping are not included! But, MorphOS T-Shirts are...;-)

We heard the other day you were thing about moving OS4 to an OpenFirmware standard. Also, had an email that mentioned Fleecy was now talking about an "OS4 Kit" for Pegasos II owners. Sounds like it could be a market for you! Good luck!

Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
Pegasos II price! : Comment 23 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith on 04-Jun-2003 15:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (bbrv):
Hey Bill!

Looks like you have quite a sweet hardware deal happening. If you can work things out with everyone else involved so that I can run AmigaOS 4.x on a Peg/Peg2 (with support from Hyperion, not a quick aminet hack), I'll definitely buy one off you. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking this. This means more business for you (you sell another Peg), Hyperion (they sell another copy of OS4) and Amiga (they get some more licensing cash). Meanwhile, I get cheaper hardware, running the OS I like (no disrespect to MOS ppl, it's just my personal choice). Everyone wins.

btw, this is not meant to be sarcastic. I'm being serious.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 24 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jun-2003 15:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
We should start a petition for higher prices.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 25 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 04-Jun-2003 15:33 GMT
Well regardless of the reason, this is the best
prices I have seen for hardware in this market
for a long time.

It will be a tough decision which model to
go for though. I hate the idea of being without
my machine while waiting for the PegII. :)
Pegasos II price! : Comment 26 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jun-2003 15:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Don Cox):
> The price is still high compared to a routine Athlon-based motherboard

I agree. But it's made sweeter by the fact that the routine Athlon mainboard has no CPU included in the price. And who knows, maybe the price will fall further. A fanless micro-atx Pegasos with 1GHz G3 and onboard VGA for 199$, that would be cool (and attract a lot of people from outside the community, for use as rooters, firewalls, mp3 players, etc.)
Pegasos II price! : Comment 27 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 04-Jun-2003 16:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Anonymous):
"We should start a petition for higher prices."

Hahahaha! Indeedy! This would be another fine moment in the Amiga community's history. Just have to get Seehund to underwrite it and apply the Value Subtracted Reseller logo ; }
Pegasos II price! : Comment 28 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 04-Jun-2003 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Anonymous):
>>We should start a petition for higher prices.

LMAO

Jaguar sucked...could be a question for a lawyer...got a real business on your hands...I can't cover all the highlights from this thread.

WOW, you all had me literally 'laughing out loud'

gosh...thanks for that...

on a serious note, I agree, this hardware is at a killer pricepoint.
oh sure a PC user can still deride a 600mhz mobo @300 when you
can get brand new 1.8GHz at $150....

but for this market, the PowerPC realm, its a real breath of fresh air, and
most importantly, it doesn't make me wanna puke at the thought...I could actually buy one! wooo...can't wait till its real!
Pegasos II price! : Comment 29 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 04-Jun-2003 16:32 GMT
I wonder, what are the chances of the Pegasos II being sold as an Amiga now that Genesi have registered the lapsed trademark with USPTO? I would prefer Amiga over Atari, but thats just my personal preference.

Maybe "Amiga NG" or some such.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 30 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 04-Jun-2003 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Matt Parsons):
The jaguar didn't suck, hardware wise.

It did suck with regards to games, its backer, and marketing.

However the hardware was pretty good - 2 25MHz 32/64 bit RISC processors that could retire 1 instruction per clock each for example ... a programmable display processor, etc. Shame about the 68000 in there, however it was usually ignored because it simply couldn't match the other processing resources available.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 31 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 17:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (yoodoo):
Well, he does do it doesn't he? I mean, i'm not fond of Bill at all, but credit goes to where it belongs, the prices are very nice.

If only there was more then a PCB & CPU... As it is now it's still not intresting for me to buy it.

Cheers
Pegasos II price! : Comment 32 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 17:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Nate Downes):
Yes, but somehow i think that the Playstation did have a much bigger production run :)

Cheers
Pegasos II price! : Comment 33 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 17:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (bbrv):
For smaller production runs this can indeed be a big advantage, however, for larger scale operations this can pose problems if the productionsite doesn't grow with the required volumes.

Anyway, congrats on the Peg2 prices, they are very good.

But alas, good & cheap hardware is not the only thing, there's still afew pieces missing to get me to buy one

Cheers
Pegasos II price! : Comment 34 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 17:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (greenboy):
I think that what Ben meant was that without details about the product, announcing the prices are abit pointless.

We know it uses G3 & G4 cpu's, but not much else

Cheers
Pegasos II price! : Comment 35 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 17:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (bbrv):
Bill said:

"We heard the other day you were thing about moving OS4 to an OpenFirmware standard. Also, had an email that mentioned Fleecy was now talking about an "OS4 Kit" for Pegasos II owners. Sounds like it could be a market for you! Good luck! "

I won't get into the debate of the merits & contra's of OF, as that's beyond the scope of the current discussion (and unconfirmed by my sources), but you should try & avoid raising rumors.

I would love to see AOS4 on the Peg system, but you must also understand that without funding this won't happen, and if hyperion were to fund it themselves, the market for it needs to be big enough to warrent their effort (iow, you'd need more then 600 users, however, i'm pretty sure that you can raise that number).

Also, there's still the licencing issue with Ainc to discuss, you are the big honcho at Genesi, get on the phone/fax/mail with Ainc about this, and again, try to refrain from rumors, there's already been enough of that

Amon_Re
Pegasos II price! : Comment 36 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jun-2003 17:42 GMT
Hi guys, if you think, that Pegasos 2 is too cheap (compared to A1's), just ask Bill Buck, I guess it can be arranged, if you want to pay more.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 37 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jun-2003 17:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Amon_Re):
Phone where? Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
Pegasos II price! : Comment 38 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Hallogen on 04-Jun-2003 17:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Amon_Re):
"I would love to see AOS4 on the Peg system, but you must also
understand that without funding this won't happen, and if hyperion
were to fund it themselves, the market for it needs to be big enough
to warrent their effort (iow, you'd need more then 600 users, however,
i'm pretty sure that you can raise that number)."

Well, i am Pegasos/MOS user and i tell you what. I don`t care for OS4.
May it run on Pegasos or not, so please, don`t count 600 Pegasos-Users
in automatically.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 39 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 04-Jun-2003 17:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Amon_Re):
"I think that what Ben meant was that without details about the product, announcing the prices are abit pointless.

We know it uses G3 & G4 cpu's, but not much else "

Well.. G3 CPU is going to be same as on current Pega1:s .. and G4 is between 1GHz and 1.3 (exact model annouced later)... Pegasos 2 motherboard is supposed (according all info I have gathered) to have same features as (size connectors etc) Pegasos1 except Northbridge is coming from Marvell, due that change also Ram type changes to DDram (366MHZ is most likely).

Ah well.. Another minor change (due Marvell technology intergated to northbridge).. it'll likely have some (1 or 2?) Gigabit ethernets on board. Those are rarities even on X86 boards these days.
Pegasos II price! : Comment 40 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 04-Jun-2003 17:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Lando):
> I wonder, what are the chances of the Pegasos II being sold as an Amiga now
> that Genesi have registered the lapsed trademark with USPTO? I would prefer
> Amiga over Atari, but thats just my personal preference.

1) Genesi has filled in an application. That's all for the moment!
2) The Atari issue seems to cover *a lot more* than just a brand.
3) The "Amiga" brand suits very well for AROS, don't you think?
Pegasos II price! : Comment 41 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 04-Jun-2003 17:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (takemehomegrandma):
Yes, TMHG...;-)

Plus, we think we will donate the "amiga" to Wayne at amiga.org and then he can give a friendly license to the AROS Team!

OS4 too! Why not!

:-)

R&B
Pegasos II price! : Comment 42 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 17:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Hallogen):
Hey, i didn't say that everyone would buy it, i said that the current userbase was to small.

And likewise, i have no intrest in MOS, but if AOS4 were available for Peg, i might consider it

Cheers
Pegasos II price! : Comment 43 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 04-Jun-2003 18:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (JoannaK):
> Ram type changes to DDram (366MHZ is most likely).

This will be so nice! :-)

> it'll likely have some (1 or 2?) Gigabit ethernets on board. Those are
> rarities even on X86 boards these days.

Initially they announced 3 ports. AFAIK this was later decresed to two ports when they decided which Marvel model to use (I'm *pretty sure* that the source of info for this was BBRV, but I'm not 100% sure!). I hope that there will be two ports available when the final boards arrive!
Pegasos II price! : Comment 44 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Jun-2003 18:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (bbrv):
If you get the Amiga brand name i guess you'll have everything you ever wanted, no?

But still, even if you get the brand name, i'm still not intrested in it without AOS4, sorry mate, but that's the way i stand.

Amon_Re
Pegasos II price! : Comment 45 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 04-Jun-2003 18:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Amon_Re):
> But still, even if you get the brand name, i'm still not intrested in it
> without AOS4, sorry mate, but that's the way i stand.

And how do you know this without trying OS4 out?

Dammy
Pegasos II price! : Comment 46 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 04-Jun-2003 18:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
> I'm sure they loose money if the price is like that. it's just a trick to
> make people buy Atari instead of Amiga. They will make price higher as soon
> as they it's okay for them."

Absolutely sod all to do with it.

The Pegasos I cost something silly like $150 to make (including the G3
processor, which is a tiny part of the cost of the machine), but it was ALWAYS
to be sold for $499, in order to subsidise the LONG development time (something
like 2-3 years)

Eventually it was worked out that given the cost of April (allegedly $180 or so
for the first set, PER APRIL CHIPSET FIX), and the time and UPS/FedEx shipping
costs bring old boards back, Genesi pretty much broke even.


The Pegasos II is *MUCH* cheaper to produce, thankfully. This means we can
sell boards for $299 (G3 only) instead of $499, and reserve that high price
point for G4 boards.

The G4 boards are more expensive because - hey - G4 procs are more expensive,
and the G4 processor board may well be slightly more complex (perhaps Gerald
whacked 2MB of L3 cache on there while we weren't looking? *cough* :)

It may also be the case that the G4 boards will be slightly subsidising the
G3 boards. But that's not a fact, I'm guessing :)

Neko
Pegasos II price! : Comment 47 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 04-Jun-2003 18:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Amon_Re):
Amon_Re, just promise us you won't go on a hunger strike while you are waiting!

We are used to you around here...;-)

R&B
Pegasos II price! : Comment 48 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 04-Jun-2003 18:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (bbrv):
Cool! :-)

This propably leads nowhere, but one could allways hope!

This has been a very interesting day ...
:-)
Pegasos II price! : Comment 49 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by RC on 04-Jun-2003 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Matt Parsons):
No..the Jaguar had superior hardware to any other console on the market..

The Jaguar was a wonderful system. The software for it, however, 'sucked'. Atari's downfall was the poor games that were released for the system. Alas..it could have been so much better. Besides, any console that, with CD attachment in place, looks liek a "Toilet Seat" is a piece of art.

//RC//
Pegasos II price! : Comment 50 of 154ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jun-2003 18:19 GMT
299 EURO, that's something else than an A1 for 750 EURO.
As soon as MOS gets a NICE GUI I will buy one. I hate
the current themes...
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