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[News] OpenAmiga.tkANN.lu
Posted on 11-Jun-2003 20:53 GMT by mdma (Edited on 2003-06-12 08:34:47 GMT by Christian Kemp)110 comments
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Open Amiga is an effort to create a standard for the Amiga that developers and users alike can use in their quest for the perfect Amiga platform. This standard is intended to minimize the programming effort needed to port between the 3 current Amiga platforms, Amiga OS 4, AROS and MorphOS. And at the same time give You as the user greater flexibility in desiding what system suits You the most. Here is the minimum specification proposed for the Open Amiga standard: Kernel: AmigaOS 3.1 compatible 2D Graphics: CGX v4 compatible 3D Graphics: OpenGL 1.2 compatible Audio: AHI 5.5 Networking: BSDSocket compatible Media Layer: SDL 1.2 GUI Tool Kit: MUI 3.8 compatible Executable File Format: ELF C compiler: GCC If You have questions or suggestions, feel free to contact mdma. OpenAmiga also see this thread on amiga.org for more details OpenAmiga
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 1 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 11-Jun-2003 19:07 GMT
How about this:

Kernel: AmigaOS 1.3
compatible 2D Graphics: ECS Denise
3D Graphics: Make your own routines darnit
compatible Audio: Paula ?
Networking: Netw.. what is that ?
Media Layer: PowerPoint?
GUI Tool Kit: Whats wrong with Inuitions gadgets ?
Executable File Format: Um.. IFF
C compiler: Turbo Pascal.. no, wait..

/just kidding
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 2 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2003 19:11 GMT
Could you please learn to post news to ann.lu?

Putting everything to main section and just single link to Details-section is plain stupid.

Try to keep the Summary-section short, please.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 3 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-Jun-2003 19:12 GMT
This is just stupid what have Hyperion and done this months, they have made lots advanced MP, VM, Shard Memory, etc. and now they talk about not using any of the new features as it brakes portability ?? you most be kidding me. Okey you can always make transparent API & Heders for every OS make up for the differences,


On AmigaOS4.0,

any way if you compile a program as a PPC program it becomes a memory protected program wile if you compile the same programs as 68k is allocated in shard memory program or trapped memory in the address space above 256MB,

any way the differences between AOS4.0 and AROS should be limited while the Q/box can be challenge I know nothing about, the A/Box should be portable.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 4 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 11-Jun-2003 19:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
> they have made lots advanced MP

???
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 5 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 11-Jun-2003 19:17 GMT
Dont know what the hell Kjetil is saying..

... but hope this one advances. Great project.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 6 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-Jun-2003 19:20 GMT
Okey maybe it not so stupid idea, you need to build a standard API for this type of uncommon parts, so you can write the same and make it work on all,
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 7 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 11-Jun-2003 19:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
program or trapped memory in the address space above 256MB,
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting, another little tidbit I didnt know, care to elaborate ?
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 8 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 19:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Kjetil):
The point of Openamiga is to start with a base system, that covers all the platforms...

Then as new features are added, the Openamiga spec can be increased, but only all systems can support the new features in a compatibile way, if this requires wrappers and layers so be it. But if we start this inititive now, then maybe we can actaully work together to add new features, in a system friendly way.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 9 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 11-Jun-2003 19:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Leif):
Argh, making any type of visaul effects in the comments are
destined to fail miserably..
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 10 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 19:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Leif):
Leif >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kernel: AmigaOS 1.3
compatible 2D Graphics: ECS Denise
3D Graphics: Make your own routines darnit
compatible Audio: Paula ?
Networking: Netw.. what is that ?
Media Layer: PowerPoint?
GUI Tool Kit: Whats wrong with Inuitions gadgets ?
Executable File Format: Um.. IFF
C compiler: Turbo Pascal.. no, wait..

/just kidding
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hahahaha, I was going to say AMOS Basic :-))) Hahahah
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 11 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-Jun-2003 19:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (takemehomegrandma):
Hypersion have done lots of work added lots of features, making standards now is bit late, to write portable code is bit to late, well you may end up writhing some standard library's to translate the standard inn to OS calls.

translator API (library)

There will be some wasted time, in the library, (latency on this approach.)
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 12 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 19:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Kjetil):
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hypersion have done lots of work added lots of features, making standards now is bit late, to write portable code is bit to late, well you may end up writhing some standard library's to translate the standard inn to OS calls.

translator API (library)

There will be some wasted time, in the library, (latency on this approach.)<<<<<<<<<<<

This is not really a problem. If the features are actually worthwhile (I've neither seen them published nor disscussed) then the orther system will support them too. All it you take is to make sure that all the aproaches can share a common API.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 13 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 11-Jun-2003 19:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Kjetil):
Well, luckily, You may just ignore any kind of standard and
use native functions right away, its up to the coder..

Im not really sure myself, what this actually is supposed to
achive, other than on paper. Developers are already following theese
standards, because they are good. Sometimes something non-standard
is used, because it is good. But pherhaps further in the future
something like this might be needed, when (if) the three major players
are starting to take their own directions. Right now many devs
work on several systems, and information/ideas are exchanged.
It might happen that this will not always be the case.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 14 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 19:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Leif):
Leif:

The idea of the Openamiga standard is so that developers know what the common API's between the AROS/MOS/AOS4 are at the most basic level.

This mean that if you write an app following this standard it can be ported to any of the OS's without problems.

Yes, I choose those API's becuase they are both commonly used already, and have compatible equivilents on all the avaiable OS's.

In theory the develoer should be following this standard anyway... as it is the most common way to work on the Amiga :-)
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 15 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 11-Jun-2003 20:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Matt Parsons):
Yeah, sounds right.
How will it be "communicated" to developers and especially
new developers ? Phoenix pherhaps ?

How about the Dev CD, should there be a note saying
"You should only use theese features from our OS,
that way it will work on our competitors too" :)
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 16 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2003 20:19 GMT
Why CGX and not Picasso? It's not like GGX is available for AOS4 either is it? Is this a lame attempt to get developer to MOS? Honestly I think not, so make a different standard.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 17 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-Jun-2003 20:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Matt Parsons):
Once started whit AMOS, what a waste of time, even Blitz Basic where waste of time, just should started with C from the beginning now I'm porting every idea once head form AMOS/Blitz to C this take bloody time, what waste of time. so I started making (an library or) some header files that contain the most common AMOS commands, I might make it an interpreter at the current I'm using this as development standard I'm going to port to AROS one day,

This project created on the mixture of SVGALIB and header files with AMOS commands,

PublicPaint
<http://geocities.com/khvalstrand>

if you download it place not that is a Alfa state software, going jam some more inn there and upload one with 4 more fixes.

this not a joke!!! :)
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 18 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2003 20:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
P96 emulates CGX, but not the other way around. That's why.

Still no secret conspiracy... you paranoid person, you!
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 19 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 20:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why CGX and not Picasso? It's not like GGX is available for AOS4 either is it? Is this a lame attempt to get developer to MOS? Honestly I think not, so make a different standard.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Have you ever wondered why All amiga Applications seem to work regardless of if you are using P96 or CGX? No, ok then I'll tell you:

P96 uses the Cybergraphics API... thus that is the API we officially support... make sense?

So P96 and CGX share a common API, right, which means that as long as the API (known as the CGX API) is followed all Apps will be happy...

I hope this mkes it clear to you.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 20 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-Jun-2003 20:36 GMT
I in forum think on reference here at ANN one week ago, there link to web page forum for Amiga OS4,0 about development appose

"openlibaray()"

should be written like

"exec -> openlibaray()"

it where explained that there where some defines so you can write

openlibray() butt that where not correct and there a chance heat it will break in the feature.

if you made PPC program you should you the exec version of memalloc() etc.
and not the warpup / powerup version.

thats about every thing big...
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 21 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 11-Jun-2003 20:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Leif):
> Leif :
>How will it be "communicated" to developers and especially new developers ? Phoenix pherhaps ?

PHoenix PHerhaps: I like that ; }

Ph[oeni]X could be part of the prescription. I've been playing devil's advocate over at Amiga.org same topic {man, how many forums does it take to deal with a small community? - the people who want to get something done have too post too much to actually do it! ; } ... Yes, I've been playing devil's advocate because much of this has been covered in the past and the same issues always cropped up, cultually, and technically.

But it is important to have faith that at least some people have the energy, the dedication, and the stubborness. Much props, we'll see!
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 22 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Kjetil):
You will remember that WarpOS and PowerUP are extensions to the make PPC work with 68K, that doesn't actually make any sense on a modern system, where we would never have an 68K and a PPC... thus I see no need to cover that in the Openamiga Spec.

This is not about supporting old 68k machines, but trying to bring some kind of standard to the mess of AmigaOS clone platfroms that have formed in the period since Commodore went tits-up.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 23 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2003 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Kjetil):
Man. You seriously should consider using spellchecker or at least reading your post thru before hitting "Add Comment".

OpenLibrary() not openlibaray()
AllocMem() not memalloc()

Rest is too cryptic to parse.


Anyway, it seems to me you're not quite getting the point here. The idea is to have source code that compiles out of the box for as many systems as possible, or at least as little porting effort as possible.

Using OS4 only features is not going to help here.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 24 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 11-Jun-2003 20:50 GMT
I might mention POSIX again, as it has been mentioned on Amiga.org. Talking with QNX among others it became obvious that there were many varying claims to full compliance to POSIX but a lot of them proved broken, incomplete, and dragged in maninly for PR fluff.

Still, some was better than none for developers who often worked projects across platforms.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 25 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 20:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (greenboy):
There is a porblem with POSIX, And that is to decide the best way to implement it across the platforms...

AOS3.1 has tendedto use ixemul.library... with might be a good starting point, other than the fact the source code is a real mess :-/
AROS uses an integrated c.library...
Neither of these two solution are complete, though...


and I don't know how MOS and AOS4 do it, if at all?!?!
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 26 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2003 21:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Matt Parsons):
MOS has both ixemul and libnix, like 68k GG.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 27 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 11-Jun-2003 21:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Matt Parsons):
Hey Matt, I really was using POSIX as an example, and not presenting it as a solution for our OSes in particular.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 28 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 11-Jun-2003 21:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (greenboy):
>>>>>>>>>
Hey Matt, I really was using POSIX as an example, and not presenting it as a solution for our OSes in particular.
<<<<<<<<<

Oh, right :-) I get it now, I totally got thewrong enod of the stick with that one...

But aleast I now know that MOS uses a couple of different POSIX layers, surely they could benefit from a standardisation just with that!?!?
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 29 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2003 23:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Matt Parsons):
Actually not all apps work seamlessly. But I've never tried anything other than hardware banging so I though the APIs were different .I'll shut up for now...
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 30 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 12-Jun-2003 03:28 GMT
This is a good idea. I like it!
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 31 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 12-Jun-2003 04:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
PPC != Protected app, unless that app is written specificly to use the extended API functions.

Cheers
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 32 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 12-Jun-2003 04:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
AOS4 emulates CGX4 :)

Cheers
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 33 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 12-Jun-2003 04:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Anonymous):
// You seriously should consider using spellchecker

It where extremity late so I where not thinking right, should have gone to bed one hour before I have done yester day. This is way head some problems rending it throw after I used the spellchecker

It’s extremely uncommon to use BIG and small letters intermixed on any platform. It’s even considered bad programming stile by most, the exception is AmigaOS and some libraries hear and there.

OpenLibrary() not openlibaray()
AllocMem() not memalloc()

// Using OS4 only features is not going to help here

Well you most consider the new writhing styles as they are important when making programs, there most be some point in using the new style, way have they changed this if it’s not important,

I guess you can make lots of “#define OpenLibrary Exec->OpenLibrary” in some header file.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 34 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 12-Jun-2003 06:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Matt Parsons):
"The point of Openamiga is to start with a base system, that covers all the platforms..."

I think this is a very good plan. It will give the programmer who wants to code for all the Amiaga-like platforms a clear starting point.

There is no compulsion. Nothing prevents you from using special features found only in one OS if your program really needs them.

It's good to see that Hollywood is being coded for all kinds of Amigas.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 35 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 12-Jun-2003 06:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Matt Parsons):
> P96 uses the Cybergraphics API

No, it doesn't. Picasso96API.library has the P96 API, which is totally different to the CGX API. Picasso96 has an emulation library (cybergraphics.library) which maps cgx calls to P96.

Guess what? CGX has one for apps that use the P96 API, too. So they both have one native (which is ever so slightly faster), and an emulated API (which has to translate calls from one to the other, which sometimes involves converting graphics data).
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 36 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 12-Jun-2003 06:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Leif):
"I'm not really sure myself, what this actually is supposed to
achive, other than on paper. Developers are already following theese
standards, because they are good. "

Not always. I have come across recent programs that don't allow you to select a screen, for instance, but only run on the Workbench. An example is ZoneXplorer, which is otherwise a good program.

IMO a standard Amiga program should always have an ARexx port, even if there are only a few commands.

Is it possible to design some kind of template code to act as a starting point for a program? This would contain code for using the ASL libraries, setting up a scripting port, accessing AHI, and other things that are common to all programs. I suspect that people are coding this routine stuff over and over.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 37 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 12-Jun-2003 06:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
> any way if you compile a program as a PPC program it becomes a memory
> protected program wile if you compile the same programs as 68k is allocated in
> shard memory program or trapped memory in the address space above 256MB

and how did they protected shared amigaos structures ?
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 38 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 12-Jun-2003 07:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Don Cox):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMO a standard Amiga program should always have an ARexx port, even if there are only a few commands.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Good point, I've suggested AREXX compatibility for inclusion into the openamiga spec.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 39 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Dagon on 12-Jun-2003 07:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Don Cox):
---
Don Cox
I think this is a very good plan. It will give the programmer who wants to code for all the Amiaga-like platforms a clear starting point.

There is no compulsion. Nothing prevents you from using special features found only in one OS if your program really needs them.
---
Exactly, if for example Epic wants to make a game and it doesn`t really need a special feature from any OS then all the AmigaOS-like OSes can have it with little effort. (just recompile if needed)

I guess i.e. a game that has been written for the OpenAmiga API can be binary compatible in the machines that have the same CPU i.e. PPC
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 40 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Dagon on 12-Jun-2003 07:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Dagon):
forgot to add
---
I guess i.e. a game that has been written for the OpenAmiga API can be binary compatible in the machines that have the same CPU i.e. PPC
---
If this is valid then that means for the software house more sales and for us more programs in the Amiga-like OS we are using.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 41 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 12-Jun-2003 07:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Dagon):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
---
I guess i.e. a game that has been written for the OpenAmiga API can be binary compatible in the machines that have the same CPU i.e. PPC
---
If this is valid then that means for the software house more sales and for us more programs in the Amiga-like OS we are using.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

That would be the ultimate goal. But in the short term probably not too easy, I think Hyperion have used a new library calling mechanism unlike AOS3.1/AROS and MOS which might cause problems without a quick recompile.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 42 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 12-Jun-2003 07:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Matt Parsons):
I know that within the AROS team, binary compatibility with MOS on PPC hardware is being looked into.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 43 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 12-Jun-2003 07:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (brotheris):
They are not protected,

I don’t know if they have done this, butt there is the possibility of checking the size important things like jump tables, by scanning for the ‘jmp’ instruction, the difference between the last jmp instruction found in address compared with start address of the offset table is the size of the jmp table, I don’t expect them to do any extreme checks like that, I expect them to say unprotected on all the 68k library’s,

I don’t know how the JIT will effect the jmp tables, or there is even possible to modify the jmp tables to the extent it will crash, when the code it converted and executed as PPC code in some otter jit instruction cashes where it’s redirected.

On PPC librarys the jump table can be set as readabole + executable, this will protect then form being modified or overwritten,

So the larger number of PPC libraries the less likely the system will be effected when some thing crashes
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 44 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Dagon on 12-Jun-2003 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Matt Parsons):
---
I think Hyperion have used a new library calling mechanism unlike AOS3.1/AROS and MOS which might cause problems without a quick recompile.
---
But AmigaOS 4.0 runs apps of the AmigaOS 3.x without recompiling so if the app with the OpenAmiga standards runs on my current Amiga then it will run everywhere without recompiling.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 45 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Dagon on 12-Jun-2003 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Dagon):
...but maybe I`m wrong, I`m not sure :-)
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 46 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 12-Jun-2003 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Dagon):
I said might :-)
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 47 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 12-Jun-2003 08:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Kjetil):
> They are not protected

rnd write and crash. So much for memory protection.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 48 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 12-Jun-2003 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Dagon):
"But AmigaOS 4.0 runs apps of the AmigaOS 3.x without recompiling so if the app with the OpenAmiga standards runs on my current Amiga then it will run everywhere without recompiling."

Yes, the new libraries are backwards compatible with the old. Existing programs will not see the new calling mechanism.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 49 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 12-Jun-2003 09:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (brotheris):
If 80% of the memory is used by 68k programs it likely that it will effect a 68k program, if 5% of the memory is used by 68k program it more likely it hits an unallocated memory area and the program will be forced to terminate. The jmp tables it self counts for about 0.1% of library it’s unlikely hits important tables, the more PPC programs and system files the less likely the 68k program will crash any thing butt it self.

I do not se your point every OS crash, it just mater of being extremely unlucky or mixing incompatible OS libraries with system files.
OpenAmiga.tk : Comment 50 of 110ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 12-Jun-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Don Cox):
Don Cox:
Is it possible to design some kind of template code to act as a starting point for a program? This would contain code for using the ASL libraries, setting up a scripting port, accessing AHI, and other things that are common to all programs. I suspect that people are coding this routine stuff over and over.
-----------------------------

Well, MUI does all that and more. Except the AHI part.
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