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[News] IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd MeyerANN.lu
Posted on 15-Jun-2003 10:21 GMT by A.Scott Pringle (Edited on 2003-06-15 16:46:23 GMT by Christophe Decanini)161 comments
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Today at AUG we saw the first demo of a modified UAE JIT for PPC demoed by Bernd Meyer.
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IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 1 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 15-Jun-2003 08:30 GMT
I say: WOWW :)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 2 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2003 08:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Emeric SH):
What is this exactly? Amithlon/Umilator for imac and/or pegasos?
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 3 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 08:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
Uhm, it's UAE with JIT for Powerpc? ;-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 4 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by André Siegel on 15-Jun-2003 08:41 GMT
Good news. I would most certainly like to see a MorphOS port of UAE with built-in JIT emulation and a clean GUI. That would rock.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 5 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2003 08:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (André Siegel):
I would rather like to see MorphOS with built-in JIT. ;-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 6 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 08:45 GMT
Nice one. Interesting to see Bernie using *cough* dnetc for "benchmarks" after all the emails he's sent me "correcting" my statement about "rc5 and ogr benchmarks".

*cough* :-)

So when will this be available in an UAE that compiles for a Linux near me? :-)
Now I only need to get the damn RS/6000 to work with an external graphics card (or even get the internal one to utilise more than 256kB of memory, as it has 2M...), and we're talking (I have two, but X in 256 (garbled, even) colours on 800x600 isn't all that fun for UAE.

Any word on applications that work? Payback, for instance? Hint, hint. Hint, hint. Hint, etc ad nauseam.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 7 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2003 08:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
It has. :D
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 8 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 15-Jun-2003 09:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Olegil):
Well, payback works fine under Amithlon. so it should work under both Mos and OS4.

Except maybe for the joystick controls? i remember Bernie had to make a "arrow keys to Joystick" hack in Amithlon, so it might no work to great without a Hack to map the joystick port registers to something else.

@Bernie: Man you are sick :-), congrats on the great work.
Btw: is the iMac running LinuxPPC or MacOS? (i would suspect Linux)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 9 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Lasse Bodilsen):
I wasn't asking about MOS or OS4, I was asking for a LinuxPPC version. But seeing as the only Linux driver that can initialise a non-initialised graphics card is the tdfb framebuffer, and the RS/6000 doesn't boot if there's a Voodoo card on the PCI bus (am really perplexed here. It starts to scan the bus and then just stops. For no apparent reason. It wasn't even compiled with a Voodoo driver...)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 10 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Lasse Bodilsen):
Ehm, Payback plays very well from keyboard. Why would you need to hack joystick to keyboard for Payback in OS4?
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 11 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Jun-2003 09:43 GMT
BerniePower!


:-D


R&B
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 12 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (bbrv):
Honest question:

Are you on drugs?

:-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 13 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 15-Jun-2003 10:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Olegil):
"I was asking for a LinuxPPC version"

Ohhh, sorry. Well i think my point was that, if it runs on Amithlon, it should work fine under any UAE version :-)

"Ehm, Payback plays very well from keyboard. Why would you need to hack joystick to keyboard for Payback in OS4?"

Hmm, i'm pretty sure that payback did'nt work correctly when i used it to alpha/beta test Amithlon. I seem to recall that it was a problem on the Title screen, where you had to use the joystick to choose options.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 14 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 15-Jun-2003 10:07 GMT
Payback bangs hardware.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 15 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 15-Jun-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (bbrv):
Are we to assume Berni had a little, maybe, finantial help from BBRV on this one?

If so, well done... money going to the right places again.. if not... :-P
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 16 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Olegil):
>Uhm, it's UAE with JIT for Powerpc? ;-)Yes and no. It's based on the latest (0.8.22) UAE source code --- but UAE's declared goal is to be a perfect A500 emulator. I can never get very excited about that --- I don't care about ECS, AGA, floppies, blitter/copper and all that stuff. I care about running modern, system-conformant apps at a fast speed.I suspect that most people who are still in this care about the same thing. And for those who *do* care about ECS games --- well, most of them have an ECS Amiga, anyway. An A500 was selling for something like $5 at that meeting today.So this thing has most custom chip emulation removed. It also takes considerably more liberties with the OS than UAE would ever do (UAE tends not to take over your gfx card, or make assumptions about user task virtual memory layout). All of which makes it faster and "snappier", but less UAE.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 17 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 15-Jun-2003 10:32 GMT
Heh.. umilator/ppc on a powerbook... yes please :)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 18 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 10:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Olegil):
Hi Ole-Egil,When writing a JIT compiler, the RC5 part of dnetc is a useful test case. It is *perfectly* suited to JIT compilation... an unbroken block of something like 2000 68k instructions with not a branch or a condition check anywhere, and all operations on full-sized 32 bit operands. Which means that it's the kind of code where you can *really* see whether some optimizations work or don't (in typical code, the most frequent unbroken block length is 3-4 68k instructions). It is also always a good idea to check that things don't break when such long unbroken blocks of code are encountered.By no means should the dnetc be seen as any kind of benchmark, except maybe to show a "in the best case, you get 2/3 native" data point. It's not even useful to compare between JIT compilers (what makes or breaks a JIT compiler is how it deals with short blocks, not long ones).
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 19 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Olegil):
The Matrox framebuffer driver can do this, too, at least in the 2.4 series of kernels. Might have better luck with an old Millennium.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 20 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 10:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Lasse Bodilsen):
IIRC, the problem with Payback, back in the (northern) summer of 2001, was that I accidentally returned "button pressed" for one (unemulated) joystick at all times --- and with the button pressed, Payback woudln't listen to the keyboard anymore. Changing a single bit in the return value for one of the CIA registers fixed that.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 21 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 10:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Matt Parsons):
You shouldn't assume that... It's my personal little weekend project, to get back to getting low and dirty, after spending the week doing Java and Perl :)Genesi has graciously provided me with a Pegasos, no strings attached, which of course comes in quite handy (hey, it's twice as fast as my purple iMac!); And it means I can say "It works on Pegasos", while I can only say "It should work on AmigaOne".
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 22 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 15-Jun-2003 11:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Bernd Meyer):
hi.

Just two questions:
1. Will it work like Amithlon? (bootCD, and no sign of linux)

2. In need of Alpha testers :-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 23 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Paul on 15-Jun-2003 11:30 GMT
well wouldn't that look spiffy on my ibook...

Bernie can you give us any more info...source code? morhpos only? release date?

you know all the questions people will be asking.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 24 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 15-Jun-2003 11:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Bernd Meyer):
>>>>>>>>>>>
You shouldn't assume that... It's my personal little weekend project, to get back to getting low and dirty, after spending the week doing Java and Perl :)
Genesi has graciously provided me with a Pegasos, no strings attached, which of course comes in quite handy (hey, it's twice as fast as my purple iMac!); And it means I can say "It works on Pegasos", while I can only say "It should work on AmigaOne".
<<<<<<<<<<<

Well it's good to see a company provide support for a worthwhile product.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 25 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Bernd Meyer):
Hey, thanks for the tip. I'll ask around if anyone at the office has a Matrox I can borrow for an hour FIRST thing tomorrow :-)

Only PCI Matrox I can find costs 150 Euro or so, so used one would be preferable. Especially considering I would end up with more mem on the gfx card than on the frelling motherboard on one of these buggers. 70ns FP with parity, matched pairs of memory. Have managed to find 3 pairs so far...
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 26 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Bernd Meyer):
Yeah, yeah. Just teasing :-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 27 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 11:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Bernd Meyer):
But are we talking LinuxPPC? There's plenty of people willing to play with this if you give us a chance. Please? :-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 28 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 11:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lasse Bodilsen):
I have some ideas how to make the overall experience smooth --- but to work like Amithlon, you'd need to include some IP which isn't free (even if a certain company acts as if it was :).But by and large --- this is going to be under the GPL, so almost everyone can make it into anything they want.As for Alpha testers --- give me some more time. Progress is quite slow (seeing as this is a weekend project), and there is a whole bunch of things I want to get done before I release even semi-publicly. Wouldn't want to get stuck with supporting some silly design decision just because I didn't realize it was stupid before releasing, eh :)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 29 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2003 11:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Bernd Meyer):
>I don't care about ECS, AGA, floppies, blitter/copper and all that stuff.>I care about running modern, system-conformant apps at a fast speed. That´s strange, for that we already have MOS.A fast & nice UAE would complement the modern systems (Peg/AOne) which haveno original chipsets anymore - what will be your aim, a further diversificationof the market or not a public release of your hobby project at all?
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 30 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 11:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Bernd Meyer):
So basically, we're almost talking PPC version of Amithlon? I love the idea of that. Really, I do.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 31 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Anonymous):
I can't help but think that "we" don't have MorphOS to run 68k applications quickly. AFAICT, there are about 600 Pegasos boards out there. The majority of those are not betatester-1 boards, and thus the owners don't have access to the MorphOS JIT compiler.There are also a few hundred AmigaONE boards out there, and millions of Macs. None of them currently have access to a way to run AmigaOS 68k apps at reasonable (i.e. faster than 060) speed. Even the "OS4 on tour" machines reportedly run an interpreting emulator, which would severely impact performance.As far as the general public is concerned, Genesi and Hyperion have *announced* JIT compilers for their respective OSs. Both did so a *long* time ago, and yet, there is nothing you and I could play with (The Petunia page was last updated more than 4 months ago). I know from personal, painful experience how long debugging a JIT compiler can take. The idea of trying to debug one written in Assembler (as Petunia supposedly is) scares me.I ran across an interview with Ben Hermans today, from January, in which he stated that the JIT compiler for OS4 was "almost finished" (follow the link on the DE game earlier today/yesterday). I thought "Oh, that's been a while in an 'almost finished' state". *Then* I realized that the interview was from January *2002*, not 2003.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 32 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 12:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Bernd Meyer):
Enough chit-chat. Hand me a Linux beta? ;-)

You know I'm gonna be bugging you now, dude :-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 33 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 15-Jun-2003 13:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Olegil):
I'll make you a deal --- I'll swap you a copy of my current development tree for a copy of a linux kernel source tree version 2.5.66 or later, that actually compiles and runs on my iMac (the benh "2.5.70" tree simply stops during bootup without useful output)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 34 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2003 13:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Bernie Meyer):
That's mean Bernie, Ole- has already said the Linux source code is too tough for him to understand, back in the "why don't they just turn on the pre-existing VIA fix?" thread :)

I'm sure you'll share BerniPower when you have a usable version. Will you be using the never-released Bernithlon approach of mapping Linux mid-level drivers (e.g. ALSA kernel, ethernet, SCSI) to single Bernithlon "linux" drivers ? Once I understood how it is OS legal I thought this was a particularly good idea.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 35 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 13:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Bernie Meyer):
Hey, that's just what the 2.5.70-olegil0 does as well :-)

No, I can't help you with a Linux kernel for your iMac. I don't even have a PPC Mac. Only Mac I have is a "good" old Performa 630 :-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 36 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Anonymous):
Uhm, the pre-existing VIA fix consists of VIA Northbridge cludges to circumvent VIA Southbridge bugs, afaik. But you're right. I'm not a Linux kernel hacker. Too many levels of abstraction for me...
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 37 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jun-2003 13:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Bernd Meyer):
"I have some ideas how to make the overall experience smooth --- but to work like Amithlon, you'd need to include some IP which isn't free (even if a certain company acts as if it was :)."

That would not be a problem if it was issued as part of Amiga Forever.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 38 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Jun-2003 13:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Olegil):
Bernie, Olegil,

Step us through this...

1. We could have a fast UAE for MorphOs...not bad.
2. As UAE is GPL all the work Bernie does could go to Hyperion.
3. Hyperion will have a working JIT as the UAE sources would give them this...(will Petunia be ready any time soon? Really?)
4. Hyperion has Mac experience and could generate considerable interest and success by bringing HyperionOS4 to Apple computer owners
5. Ben can stay busy solving all the EULA problems and...

The Amiga Community has a market again.

OK, now can we have some cooperation please!

BTW, our JIT will be ready for the MorphOS 1.4 AmiWest release.

Cheers, keep charging ahead Bernie! You too Olegil!

Raquel and Bill
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 39 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 15-Jun-2003 13:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (bbrv):
>HyperionOS4 to Apple computer

its not called AmigaOS4 anymore ?
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 40 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (bbrv):
To point 1:
I don't think there would be much point for running a non-chipset JIT UAE on an OS that already has a JIT. I think you should rather look at the original UAE for your classic gaming needs. Sadly.

It all falls apart a bit when you realise that, doesn't it? I mean, why install UAE to play Payback if Payback runs without it? Btw, I've forgot to ask: Does Payback run on MOS? Does it? Come on, tell me it does ;-)

Gunne keeps asking me when I'll buy a Pegasos from him, but I've been drooling over a Rolls Royce, and I'm pretty certain I know which I would prefer, especially if neither can run Payback (but the Rolls can drive over people the good old-fashioned way ;-))
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 41 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jun-2003 13:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (catohagen):
">HyperionOS4 to Apple computer

its not called AmigaOS4 anymore ?"

Ignore that, it's just Bill being Bill. The basic point he makes is a good one. It applies equally to (Umilator+OS4)=Market.

However,
1. almost everyone thinks Amiga==A500 games
2. AOS 4 is not very attractive outside the community until it gets a full web browser and office suite

Even so, I think plenty of copies could be sold. Which in turn means that programmers get a market, which in turn means that Amiga users get programs.
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 42 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2003 14:02 GMT
Any chance of there ever being PPC support in the PPC UAE? I mean, there's x86 support in Amithlon?
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 43 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 15-Jun-2003 14:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (bbrv):
> 3. Hyperion will have a working JIT
> as the UAE sources would give them this...

Except that they wouldn't be able to do much with it, being GPL'd. Unless they're willing to open the AmigaOS4 sources, that is :)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 44 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 15-Jun-2003 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Don Cox):
>Ignore that, it's just Bill being Bill.

i kinda guessed that...
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 45 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Jun-2003 14:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Fabio Alemagna):
Oh Fabio! You are always one step ahead of me!

Just Bill

P.S. Seriously, there could be something to do here for Bernie and the Community. Think about it!
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 46 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark] on 15-Jun-2003 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (bbrv):
@ Just Bill

Normal FUD as usual ... when do You get serious (it would be nice if You didn't troll all the time)?

Best regards, and hope for getting a serious Bill Buck some time in the near future,
Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 47 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 15-Jun-2003 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]):
Damn you're too serious, your life must be boring. ;)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 48 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 15-Jun-2003 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Fabio Alemagna):
"Except that they wouldn't be able to do much with it, being GPL'd. Unless they're willing to open the AmigaOS4 sources, that is :)"

But they could ask bernie and the original 68k emulator athur, for an exclusive license, which then would mean they didnt need to go the GPL route.

Just like Bernie did with the 68k emu for Amithlon. Nothing is imposibble :-)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 49 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 15-Jun-2003 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Lasse Bodilsen):
> But they could ask bernie and the original 68k
> emulator athur, for an exclusive license,
> which then would mean they didnt need to go the GPL route.

That's certainly possible, but wasn't what bbrv suggested.

And, anyway, they've got Petunia, or am I wrong? Money to waste?

Bah... I usually don't get dragged into such futile discussions... must be the hot :)
IMac/Pegasos Demo by Bernd Meyer : Comment 50 of 161ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 15-Jun-2003 14:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (bbrv):
> Oh Fabio! You are always one step ahead of me!

Come on, be serious, I know you KNEW that what you were suggesting, the way you suggested it, is not possible :)

> P.S. Seriously, there could be something to do here for Bernie and the
> Community. Think about it!

If Bernie wanted to do something for the community, he could have accepted our (AROS') request for collaboration... he turned it off. He just wants to have fun in his spare time, which is completely legit, but I'd not go as far as to say that he does it for the community :) (Although I acknowledge you said that there *could* be something... but I'm afraid you're wrong about that)
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