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[News] Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back onlineANN.lu
Posted on 07-Jul-2003 19:46 GMT by Jens Schönfeld217 comments
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This is a show report from individual Computers about the Amiga Alpe Adria that took place in Udine, Italy this weekend, and some good news about the Commodore Billboard! This weekend, the Amiga Alpe Adria 2003 took place in Udine, Italy - another station of Amiga OS4 on tour. The show was organized by Cloanto, well-known for a lot of Amiga programs and the emulator "Amiga Forever". Jürgen Schober of Point Design had to make two OS4 presentations, because the room was totally overcrowded with more than 100 Amiga fans and journalists of daily press and computer magazines. We also had the chance to show our products in a 30-minute presentation. Best-seller of the present retailers Soft 3 and Virtual Works was the Catweasel MK3, that became the first choice accessory for many Amiga One owners because of it's high degree of integration into the hard- and software of the new Amiga.

A small Retro-computing museum right at the entrance of the showroom brought back joyful memories in the visitors. Rare items like an SX-64 in best shape, a VIC-20 rev.1, and even a C65 prototype were shown. One of the first multi-computer games (today's networking games) was shown on two PET computers that were connected through the serial ports. The home computer pioneer Altair 8800 from 1975 was the only none-Commodore computer.

The "Video Microwave", a Pegasos-board that was built in the case of a Sharp Microwave oven, was - at best - good for a laugh. The keyboard did not work at all, and it only took a few mouseclicks to make the computer with the MorphOS operating system crash. The reason for this could not be found in the short time of the show.

Commodore Billboard back online

Our good news for the fans of Commodore nostalgia almost got lost in the excitement surrounding Amiga OS4: The Commodore Billboard is back online! The initiator of the project, Søren Ladegaard (Denmark) had to drop the project due to lack of time in January 2003, and transferred the website to individual Computers. We're now sponsoring the website that can cause a lot of traffic with it's several hundred megabytes in size. During the past half year, the new webmaster Stefan Zelazny has converted the audio and video files to mpeg and mp3, so the website can be viewed on most platforms. For example, the Realplayer is not necessary any more.
Currently, the website is available under the address www.commodorebillboard.de. The .com domain will be made available in the coming weeks.
If you're interested in a local copy of the website, you can support us in paying for the high cost of the website by ordering the CD. It will be available in august this year from all our retail partners for about 15,- EUR. The double-CD package also contains some surprises for Commodore-fans!
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 151 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Jul-2003 12:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 150 (Anonymous):
"my mom told me not to say anything if I couldn't say anything nice."

A wise advise that we should all follow.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 152 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 12:22 GMT
Vaporware.

Like RageHard & MotionStudio.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 153 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 12:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Christophe Decanini):
"Dave, it is just about your pattern in general. "
That I can accept.

"The more I read you the more I have this impression that you are at the same time trying to tell people to stop FUD and at the same time assume a lot of things. "

Right. Absolutely, but please just tell me what my assumptions are - if I have not already pointed out that "this is an assumption" and why you might take umbridge at it and I will do my best to accomodate.

I don't mind the arguments, really I do not, what I do mind are as you say incorrect ( or unproven ) assumptions that have been corrected a zillion times before being repeated once they have been corrected - its the BS thing. So if *you guys* correct my assumptions when wrong ( from your perspective ) - with the needed legwork and hopefully civility - and I will correct yours, when wrong ( from my perspective ) and that is what we will end up arguing about - which is fine really.

"I wouldn't be surprise to be corrected by an OS4 beta tester if I was speaking as much on OS4 as you do with MorphOS assuming as many things you do. "

Yep. And I was corrected, where needed, by Mahen and was happy to do so. We agreed in the end that it was Ambient that gave the impression that MorphOS was heavily bugged in 1.1 and later ;-)

Frankly as was pointed out, this pond is too small to piss in without the fish all going belly up so the sooner we can co-operate on a few things the better - but to do that we need to start presenting a united front on the BS spreaders.

If I spread BS, by all means correct me.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 154 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 12:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (dammy):
"It's people like DaveP (not to forget Ben "I'm important" H.) constant droning on about vaporware that turns me off on OS4"

Remind me to carry on, I take your dislike of me as a compliment to my character ;)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 155 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 08-Jul-2003 12:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (DaveP):
>If I spread BS, by all means correct me.

"I would rather not buy from a company that throws a poor quality release of software out into the market early merely to score political points in the full knowledge that its fanatical userbase is bought in to hide embarassing errors and defects"

Poor quality release - BS.
Merely to score political points - BS.
Fanatical userbase bought in to hide embarassing errors and defects - BS.

You're welcome :o)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 156 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 13:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Lando):
@Lando

"I would rather not buy from a company that throws a poor quality release of software out into the market early merely to score political points in the full knowledge that its fanatical userbase is bought in to hide embarassing errors and defects"

Is totally my opinion.

The question is did Genesi do part or all of this? I already answered it in the same post - yes and no. It released it as a BETATESTER ( saving grace - rather than what some on here would have you believe ( e.g. that its not a beta ) ), but it rushed it out for political reasons and we can safetly say that some of the userbase is fanatical enough to aid in hiding embarssing errors.

MorphOS 1.0/1.1 etc have already been agreed to be poor quality, if only for the defects remaining in Ambient.

HOWEVER ITS A BETA SO WHAT DO YOU EXPECT! :-)

Unless you can come up with additions to Mahens points, and useful feedback, Id say that the paragraph you cite as my opinion still stands ( unless you can get in my head and tell me that it differs ) then my analysis of the situation with respect to Genesi being sufficiently accurate, its userbases loyalty being sufficiently accurate and the products classification as a beta sufficiently accurate then what is your problem with that statement?

If it wasn't a beta, then I would actually be put off Genesi, however only the users claim it isn't a beta and until I hear otherwise from the head honcho, MorphOS 1.3 and preceeding are beta and therefore exempt.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 157 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 13:04 GMT
Wonder what the topic was again .. ah yeah, a report from somewhere.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 158 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 13:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (Johan Rönnblom):
Having used AOS4 in it's current state i can tell you that it shouldn't be crashing when moving windows.

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 159 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (Lando):
Funky, Shogo worked great for me.

Oh well, all you ever do is cry anyway

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 160 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Jens Schönfeld on 08-Jul-2003 13:27 GMT
It's nice that people quote my posts from amiga-news.de, but I'd request to quote me completely, and provide the proper translation. Since the guy who quoted me obviously wanted to alter the meaning of my words, here's the correction.

The full passage is:

Ich betone nochmals: Ich möchte keinen weiteren Flamewar heraufbeschwören. Es war lediglich sehr amüsant zu sehen, wie der Pegasos, der lange Zeit die Nase vorn zu haben schien, nur in zweiter Reihe trällern konnte. Hier meine ich amüsant im Sinne von lustig, witzig, erheiternd, unterhaltsam, und nicht im Sinne von schadensfroh oder sowas.

and the translation is:

I want to emphasize again: I don't want to start another flamewar. It was just amusing to see that the Pegasos, which was thought to be ahead for a long time, was pushed to 2nd place (or row, if you want to translate it literally).
[and here's the sentence that was conveniently omitted]: I want to say amusing by means of funny, joking, entertaining, and not gleefully or something like that.


To answer the question if I'll continue development for the Pegasos: Why shouldn't I? The official, errorfree driver ("beta that became a release") for the Catweasel is available for free on my website. The binary is identical to the Amiga version, and there's no MOS-specific code in it (I'm using OpenPCI, remember?). By making an update for the Amiga, an update for MOS is automatically done.

Testing might take a little longer, because I've sold my Pegasos to limit the losses that I made with the system (thanks to KDH for taking it back at the current dealer price). A very good decision, as another drop in price that came shortly after would have cost me even more money. Maybe if the price drops to 50 EUR I'll be tempted to buy one again.

However, it'll never be possible to give the same support for the Pegasos as for the Amiga One for technical reasons: Amiga One has it's own Bios, which now contains some Catweasel code. Since the Pegasos has no custom Bios, certain functions (especially the Amiga keyboard) are only available after the driver has been loaded from HD.

Jens Schönfeld
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 161 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 13:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (dammy):
The word, semantics, comes to my mind...

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 162 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 08-Jul-2003 13:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (gary_c):
>For pete's sake, they're on version 1.4 now and AOS4 is still months away.

..and when AmigaOS is release, it comes with a 4.0 version tag. This means
that it MUST be more developed, mature and stable than os3.9 ever was.

it also has to have evolved to be able to use the 4.0 tag (more so than
the ridiculous 3.1 -> 3.5 and 3.9 jumps. very basic improvements which should have been 3.2 and 3.3 instead.

MorphOS shouldnt have a > 1.0 tag yet. If the current 1.3 was 0.9 and the 1.4
was 1.0 then things would be better in terms of revision stability and maturity.

..and wheres 1.4 for the BlizzardPPC, my BPPC is still on the 0.4 preview!!!

Alan
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 163 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 08-Jul-2003 13:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (dammy):
No. Vaporware is something which exists only in words, but not as
actual code/hardware. OS 4 exists (even if in form as a private Beta) as
actual code. Something like the hardware announced ages
ago by Phase 5 ("A\Box", "Cyberstorm G4") are examples for
Vaporware. There are of course examples from other companies
as well.

Some companies sometimes announce products they are not actually working
on. Something like this is called "Vaporware" (It is just "hot air" ==
Vapor, there is no actual code/hardware behind it).

Steffen Haeuser
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 164 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 08-Jul-2003 13:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (dammy):
> Yeah, OS4 is vaporware

strange...my system appears to be running vapourware. hmm, wierd that.
I use OS4 on my main system every evening at home. I run the roadshow stack
to go online. I use IBrowse or V to read web pages. I use Yam 2.4p1 to
get my email. my d.net client cracks keys. all this *IS* done with os4.
I also run a load of junk and rubbish on my system...its all in the terms
of betatesting this thing.

much better private, than having issues and problems aired like dirty
laundry in the public (public MorphOS beta system). Both systems would face the same issues if they changed their way of doing things. both systems have their
merits and pitfalls/problems.

Alan
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 165 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 08-Jul-2003 14:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (dammy):
> Which is vaporware. Deal with it.

Vaporware is software which doesnt exist or hasnt been programmed yet. I dont agree on the definition that its a product which is announced in advance to damage competitors. (in either case, AOS4 and MOS are either both NOT vaporware, or they are BOTH vaporware - your choice ;-) )

alan
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 166 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Steffen Haeuser):
Yeah, like your beloved Project Brainstormer you included in your personal vendetta back then.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 167 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 08-Jul-2003 14:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (dammy):
MMC? dont you mean the Caipirinha ? ooops, THAT would be from
some other company closely related to your bigoted argument <ducks!> ;-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 168 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Jul-2003 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (alan buxey):
> ..and wheres 1.4 for the BlizzardPPC, my BPPC is still on the 0.4 preview!!! I have been betatesting CSPPC/BPPC version of MorphOS on my BPPC for a year now. My current version is some > 1.0 but dont know which one it is exactly if compared to Pegasos releases. And simple things like WOS/PUP emulation are built-in ;)) I can run any WOS/PUP application or plugin directly if needed. Too bad you can't :)))
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 169 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (Jens Schönfeld):
> was pushed to 2nd place (or row, if you want to translate it literally).

Well, your English is clearly not very good, because "trällert aus der zweiten Reihe" has little to do "with pushed to second place". Your German comment has a derogatory tone to it which you obviously do not whish to translate correctly.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 170 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (DaveP):
The differences in approach between Hyperion and Genesi are as chalk and cheese in this matter, Hyperion desperately want to get all the instabilities, bugs and features done before releasing a full product to its consumers. Genesi does not.

and you have proof of this??? I would think (useing that Greek thing called logic) that until we see AmigaOS4 we cant judge it and I am not talking about AOS4 on an A4000 Amiga.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 171 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Jul-2003 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (reflect):
reflect wrote:
> Except that the two machines with OS4 Beta on them were there for
> people to try out whatever they wanted for themselves. That part is
> clearly incorrect.

Maybe I was mistaken, but I got the definite impression that only the
"OS3.9 with some OS4 components" was available to play with. In any
case, this is surely what was running most of the time, and there was
a good reason for that - OS4 didn't work too well yet.

Anyway, it's not important, the point is that it's not particularly
interesting that OS4 crashed a couple of times even during a very
simple demo, it's a very early version and nobody denies this.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 172 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 15:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 121 (NeRP):
yeah and the amiga.inc (head of this little hydra) extremetech interview saying OS5 12 months after OS4, and OS4 bieng almost ready what do you think about that?
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 173 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Flute on 08-Jul-2003 15:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (NeRP):
I imagine that for every person that posts any comment, there are a greater number of people who share the same opinion that don't post.

Much like on mailing lists, 75-80% of subscribers don't post in most cases, but I bet their views don't differ that much from those who do post.

Regards,
Flute.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 174 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Flute on 08-Jul-2003 15:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Lecta):
And just for people's information, at WOA-SE that machine - and all the other Pegasos's worked pretty well, sure they crashed now and then... but I managed to play movies, quake, push the CPU/IO bus with some nice LhA stuff and other bits and pieces.

It was sure a lot more usable than OS4 back then.

No comments, just facts.

Regards,
Flute.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 175 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by John Doe on 08-Jul-2003 16:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Steffen Haeuser):
> Something like the hardware announced ages
> ago by Phase 5 ("A\Box", "Cyberstorm G4") are examples for
> Vaporware. There are of course examples from other companies
> as well.

What about the Escena board that was advertised and defended a lot by you ? Of course you fail to mention that example.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 176 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 08-Jul-2003 16:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Steffen Haeuser):
>Some companies sometimes announce products they are not actually working
>on. Something like this is called "Vaporware" (It is just "hot air" ==
>Vapor, there is no actual code/hardware behind it).

Are you talking about announced products like Real3D, Worms Armagedon
and so on? :)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 177 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jul-2003 16:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (Jens Schönfeld):
"However, it'll never be possible to give the same support for the Pegasos as for the Amiga One for technical reasons: Amiga One has it's own Bios, which now contains some Catweasel code. Since the Pegasos has no custom Bios, certain functions (especially the Amiga keyboard) are only available after the driver has been loaded from HD."

Does the Catweasel3 work with Amithlon, so that I can use an Amiga keyboard?
Will it read and write PC format floppies as well as Amiga ones? (I have an ISA Catweasel ATM and it will only handle Amiga disks.)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 178 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris on 08-Jul-2003 16:54 GMT
Sometimes it's better to be blind than reading certain comments...
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 179 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jul-2003 16:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (alan buxey):
"..and when AmigaOS is release, it comes with a 4.0 version tag. This means
that it MUST be more developed, mature and stable than os3.9 ever was."

As it contains a large amount of new code, it is likely to be more developed and mature but less stable. There are bound to be bugs that have to be fixed in 4.1, however thorough the beta testing.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 180 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jul-2003 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (John Doe):
"What about the Escena board that was advertised and defended a lot by you ? Of course you fail to mention that example."

That did at least exist in prototype, because I've handled it. It was at the stage where some of the chips are installed and the board logic is being tested.

I think all concerned genuinely believed that it was going to work.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 181 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 17:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Flute):
I don't know, back at WOA-SE i saw (and taped) quite afew crashes, while AOS4 at that time (existing out of 68k modules) was as stable as AOS3.9 (after all, a large part of AOS4 at that time *WAS* AOS3.9).

So it depends on how you describe AOS4 and it's state back then.

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 182 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 17:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 176 (Nicolas Sallin):
They never said when they were gonna make those if i recall correctly, only that they *HAVE* the licence to do so.

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 183 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Flute on 08-Jul-2003 17:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Anonymous):
Of course, you're forgetting that the Pegasos is not the end market product... as BBRV has said several times. Its part of a bigger plan to get developers on board for whatever part the pegasos plays in the bigger scheme of things.

that is where it differs from the AmigaOne and OS4, because they are the end products, aimed at an ever dwindling market. Its been said before, but if they don't come out soon, there'll be no market capable of sustaining it.

Regards,
Flute.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 184 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Flute on 08-Jul-2003 17:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (DaveP):
Developers always claim that their old version was crap compared to the new one.

Lets take another angle on this, lets look Apache and OpenSSH. Amazing bits of software that have been proclaimed to be "the best ever" with every new release.

You can justifiably look back on an old release and say it was buggy, because you've got a list of bugs that were fixed between the previous version and the current.

Let's no be picky, show me any software thats had multiple releases that hasn't had a single bug fixed! There won't be any, so you could claim justifiably that all those old versions were really buggy....

Regards,
Flute.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 185 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 17:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (Flute):
Hmm... Windows? ;)

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 186 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 08-Jul-2003 18:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (Jens Schönfeld):
Uh, Jens?

The Pegasos uses OpenFirmware. You (or someone else) could code in an OF driver for your Catweasel and add it to the firmware quite easily. Could even install it *onto the catweasel card itself.*
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 187 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 18:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Nate Downes):
Wouldn't that add extra cost and perhaps problems with non OF systems?

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 188 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 08-Jul-2003 18:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Steffen Haeuser):
Then Peg2 is not vaporware then?

Dammy
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 189 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by LinusG on 08-Jul-2003 20:00 GMT
What the hell are you guys doing? How can a user be offended because someone said something negative about the computer he is using?

X: WinXP crashed at a computer show! It was actually quite funny. :-)
Y: Hey, I use that! Nowyou really offended me so much that I will not stop talking about it for atleast three days!
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 190 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 08-Jul-2003 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Amon_Re):
Not at all. I run an OF-enabled video card, for example. Runs fine on my Win2k box as well as my Pegasos.

As the Catweasel is both a Zorro *and* a PCI card, I find it likely that it has some kind of onboard ROM. it is simplicity itself to add a small OF module to that ROM (they're rather small, far smaller than the x86 or Autoconf code would be) which would neither help nor hinder a non-OF based system. All that would happen is that suddenly any and all OF-based systems (that is, Sun SPARC, SGI graphics workstations, Apple Mac's, as well as the Pegasos) would now be able to utilize the catweasel from the boot-up, allowing even to boot the whole OS off of a floppy drive on the catweasel card.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 191 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 20:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 189 (LinusG):
>What the hell are you guys doing? How can a user be offended because someone said something negative about the computer he is using?

Who said something negative about his computer? I was under the impression this was people getting upset about Jens kicking at Genesi under the cover of a "show report". That's not exactly acceptable behaviour, is it, and deserves some frank comments.

But you are right insofar as it is a big problem at amiga forums to have this huge percentage of users with psychic powers, enabling them to spot the tiniest problem with the computer they are exactly NOT owning and have the least experience with ;-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 192 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Jul-2003 21:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (Jens Schönfeld):
@ Jens Schönfeld

Thank you for your post.

Regarding the translation issues - my German is quite poor. I can read most of it and make a context out of it, but babelfish.altavista.com does a better job (which says a lot :-) ). But I'm prepeared to take your word for it.

I'm happy to see that you have not abandoned us Pegasos users.

> Testing might take a little longer, because I've sold my Pegasos to limit
> the losses that I made with the system (thanks to KDH for taking it back at
> the current dealer price). A very good decision, as another drop in price
> that came shortly after would have cost me even more money.

I hope that you and Genesi can come to some kind of an agreement on your issues. And I hope that it will come in a civilized manner. Individual Computers and Genesi could gain much from each other in the future (if the both of you are mature enough to not let your business grow "personal" and if you both are capable to forget "old grudge"). Both of you have a track record of delivering (and supporting) great products; products that does not compete, but supplement each other.

> Maybe if the price drops to 50 EUR I'll be tempted to buy one again.

Perhaps the Phoenix Developer Consortium still have one or more Betatester Pegasos available for free?
;-)

The Pegasos II will probably be better though, but you should really have both of them. I have a solution! I will trade one of my Pegasos (it is used but in perfect condition and has the April 1 fix) for a Commodore One! My mail address can be found on the top of this message!
;-)

> However, it'll never be possible to give the same support for the Pegasos as
> for the Amiga One for technical reasons: Amiga One has it's own Bios, which
> now contains some Catweasel code. Since the Pegasos has no custom Bios,
> certain functions (especially the Amiga keyboard) are only available after
> the driver has been loaded from HD.

Well I am not as "geeky" as you (in a positive meaning), but I believe that the current Pegasos 1 Open Firmware has code in it to understand the FFS filesystem (among others). So the question is how much "no custom BIOS" this really is? I am obviously no Open Firmware expert, but to me it seems like it's possible to include some kind of custom code in the Open Firmware framework in some way, if you really want to.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 193 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Jul-2003 22:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Nate Downes):
> Uh, Jens?

> The Pegasos uses OpenFirmware. You (or someone else) could code in an OF
> driver for your Catweasel and add it to the firmware quite easily.

Well, I "knew" it would be possible! ;-)

> Could even install it *onto the catweasel card itself.*

Well, this might be something for the "Catweasel MK IV", you know, the one that includes the Classic Amiga version of the "Super VIC" FPGA!

:-p

/me is dreaming (and talking in my sleap) ...
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 194 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Varthall/Up Rough on 08-Jul-2003 22:33 GMT
This news has generated a very long thread! For the sake of correctness I'd like to comment
a part of the news item, which is not part of this MorphOs thread, so I guess that nobody
will be interested :)
Anyway, the multicomputer game on Pet wasn't displayed, and probably wouldn't run. Me and a friend
of mine have checked a cable with a basic program, which didn't work. I still don't know if
it was the program, the cable or the user port's fault. Anyway, we still had to
transfer the game (called Flash Attack and written in assembly) on a tape, and this was going
to be a hard job, as we have successfully transfered only basic programs so far. We were thinking
to use a C128, also present on the show, for the transfer, but because of tiredness and lack of
time we didn't tried it.
That day was already a busy day as there were some interesting presentations to follow, too :)
BTW the two Pets were linked by the "user port", which is in fact a parallel type port.
I hope we will able to show this game in a future fair here in Italy.
That's all :)

Varthall
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 195 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Jul-2003 22:59 GMT
... Oh, and I forgot to mention that I think it's great to see the "Commodore Billboard" back online!
:-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 196 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 08-Jul-2003 23:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (DaveP):
DaveP wrote:

> > A "BetaTester" release is, after all, for beta-testing, right? And why would they "throw it out early" just for the sake of being early? It's not like they had a competitor poised to beat them to market.

> Ahem, at the time, time to market was the key to establish credentials. Unless of course the passage of time is of an entirely different physical manifestation in Japan?

Time to market has some importance in establishing credentials, but so does the perceived quality of what is brought to market. It makes no sense to rush a product out if it's thoroughly slammed by reviewers and customers. Then back to the drawing board to try to piece together a plan two. So I'd say this was probably not a motivation, certainly not one indulged at the expense of releasing something much too soon.

> > For pete's sake, they're on version 1.4 now and AOS4 is still months away.
> This is now and that was then.

AFAIK, the gap between the state of MOS development and AOS4 development has been consistently large.

> > > The differences in approach between Hyperion and Genesi are as chalk and cheese in this matter, Hyperion desperately want to get all the instabilities, bugs and features done before releasing a full product to its consumers. Genesi does not.

> > Obviously, this is speculation. You are assuming that because Hyperion is taking longer that its product will be more stable and bug-free.

> No. I am talking about motives here, Hyperions motives are to release a solid product as OS4.0 to the general product. Genesi *released* a product to the general public as "betatesters" which was far from complete, stable or bug free. THEREFORE Genesis motives are already established - to get the credibility of releasing something. Hyperions you will have to take my word on I guess unless Ben or one of the Friedens have posted something public about this.

Well, that's the rub, you see. You are making inferences based on your interpretation of what is taking Hyperion this long to release a product. Genesi released a product that may have been less feature-complete as AOS4 will be when it is finally released, but again you are assigning motives based on your interpretation of events. And, besides, what was the problem with releasing a beta that is a beta?

>> However the culprit in this case is not Genesi - who called it a BETATESTER, it is the users, the militant ones ( and we all know who they are ) who are two faced lying hypocrites and start getting a nervous tick whenever you suggest that MorphOS might not be a production ready product and beating you over the head.

> > I prescribe a nice mug of warm milk. You seem to be getting a bit overexcited, Dave. :-)

> Hardly, just painting it as I see it.

That's not

> Have you forgotten the discussions where certain persons claimed that only the Pegasos board was "betatester" the OS was released?
>>> Maybe its time to stop the fight and just get on for the sake of truth?

> > Your opening paragraph here reveals you as a combatant as well as correspondent.

> Nothing I have ever denied.

OK, just so that's understood by all.

>> If you're so enthused about stopping the fighting, then refraining from inflammatory statements like those in your post could help somewhat.

> Uh huh, remember that the opening paragraph was following a quote from your post, which said:
"Say what you want about Genesi's product designations, descriptions, etc., the key point is that MorphOS has been available for some time now and is being steadily improved. I think the glass houses rule holds here."

> Right, then I express a preference. If you find that preference inflammatory then I suggest a nice cup of warm milk.

Expressing a preference can be inflammatory or not, depending on how you do it. My observation is that you sometimes take the opportunity of expressing a preference to inflame, rather than just express a preference. That's your choice, of course, but how consistent is that with calls to be reasonable? Really, I'm sure you know what you're doing.

> MorphOS has been available as a BETA for anyone who cares to buy a Pegasos 1 board. AmigaOS4 has been available as a BETA for anyone who is on a closed list of betatesters. Genesi choses to ship MorphOS as a product ( M day anyone? ) whilst people like you claim that it is a "product that is available" - the key word being product here.
> If you make something substandard available as a "product" then there are several ways of doing it:
> 1. Run a beta programme, closed list, everyone knows what they are there for but its just that a "beta" and not released to the general market. Strict conditions and problems are sorted out away from the glare of public view.
+ When product becomes generally available it is reasonbly fit for mass consumption and servicing costs are lower.
- Takes longer behind closed doors, looks like you havent released anything.
- Competitors can claim vapourware.
> 2. Make a limited availability programme ( often called tech previews ) which is basically saying public beta. People download things on their own heads. It isn't a real product yet.
+ You can claim its out there, people are using it other than internal testers.
+ Mindshare, early adopters.
- You expose yourself to potential ridicule with silly bugs and crashes.
- Too many claims about it being out in the wild can lose you credibiliy.
- Public exposure of problems means you put of potential customers.
- Higher servicing costs whilst testing is ongoing.
- Potential duplicate defect reports and debugging costs to establish this are much higher.
> 3. Release it anyway, its a product, its out there.
+ You can claim its out there.
+ Mindshare, early adopters.
- You are going to get known for releasing shoddy products before the are ready.
> Now to me ( and this is what I said ) Genesi did #2 but people such as yourselves continually claim its in category #3. Hyperion are doing #1.
It is the people that claim it is in category #3 when it suits them ( oh its released but AOS4 isn't - and you do this in your reply ) and then its in category #2 when it has bugs ( "its no for general consumption" "its really a betatester" and you do this in your reply ) and problems in the public eye that I find hard to give any credibility to.

The current "Amiga market" or "post-Amiga market" is probably somewhat unique in that most people who are actively following things are aware of the all the issues and so on. While your three types of product introduction are good general descriptions for generic markets, I think the high level of awareness of potential Pegasos and AmigaOne early adaptors and the free flow of communication between the vendors and buyers (at least in Genesi's case) means certain morphings of your types are possible. This enables selling a product that is still a beta in some sense, because buyers are aware of the situation and accept the conditions. I think the stories of the early Pegasos boards being exchanged, and in fact of *any* problematic Pegasos board being exchanged without question, are well-known. For this reason, there's a blurring of your types that makes explanations like mine more plausible.

> Interestingly both pegasos owners that I have had *technical* conversations with in private are limited by what they can say by NDAs. :-D

Particular individuals have various relationships with Genesi, MorphOS, Phoenix, etc. Some obtained their Pegasos under circumstances that prevent them from talking about technical matters, some didn't. What's so "interesting" about that?

> For the fighting to stop, the BS has to stop. I see no reason to stop posting controversial stuff, you do not need to be PC to have a valid point.

No, I think it's great to post controversial stuff. But then accept controversy, and realize that people will react in their own ways. In other words, don't stoke the fire and then complain about the heat.

>> Beyond that, some people seem to be suffering from a toy shortage. Once they have something that occupies them, maybe they'll have less time for stirring the muck.

> But Gary, you have put your Pegasos together now yes? ;)

Yes, but it's at home, and I'm at the office. :-) Now, about time flowing differently in Japan....

-- gary_c
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 197 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Vexar on 09-Jul-2003 00:59 GMT
Where the heck was this show? My sister who lives in Udine couldn't find it. She said it was in some mall, and covered it for a half hour. Oh well, apart from the anti-microwave cooker bias, the show report was fairly complete, and the coincidence of my sister on the far side of town was to her advantage. Still, I am left with questions that the average consumer (my sister) was bound to ask:

When will the Amiga One be for sale?
When will OS 4.0 (oh wait, is it OE? I forget) be for sale?
How much will each cost, and is the Amiga One a full system (monitor, keyboard mouse, modem/ethernet) or something far, far less, like you don't even get memory with the purchase (and it's still $600 USD)? I heard a rumor about that.
What software comes bundled with the Amiga One? Web Browser? Email client? Word Processor?
If I'm migrating from the PC or the Mac, will all my files work? I have a lot of MS Word documents and some spreadsheets, as well as some other important files from productivity software.
How many titles (broken down by area) are out for the new Amiga? How many are planned within the next year?
What devices and peripherals are supported? Does HP make a driver for my scanner on the new Amiga? How about my printer, and my digital camera? They are either USB or SCSI, is that okay? Will it synchronize with my PDA?
Where do I take my computer if I need it fixed? Can I get an extended service plan?
There's a lot of great games coming out for the XBox, and some of them are making it to the PC. Does that mean it will work on this system, too?


And that, gentlemen (and the infrequent lady), is why our platform is dead. We've stopped focusing on the obvious issues of critical mass for a personal computer when we look at Eyetech's bare-bones generation-old motherboard, which sells for more than the system I bought 18 months ago, and doesn't peck the surface of its performance capabilities, in everything except RS2-32, USB, VGA, and every other standard that has a ceiling. Oh wait, does it support USB 2.0?

Bill McEwen, if he's not already in cognito, ought to tell that endless army of 3000 Amiga developers to start putting it out, because the number of geeks in today's economy with that kind of scratch to spare on a nuance is slim to grim. Maybe Mr. Woods' pallate of Amiga SDK copies, when sold, will revitalize this unassuming horde of programmers, but from where I'm sitting, a car only goes up so many RPMs in first gear, and the Amiga just isn't some techno-wonder anymore, like a fuel-cell car or a pilotless combat plane.

Vexar (The original: Deny all imposters)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 198 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 09-Jul-2003 01:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 197 (Vexar):
Good points there.

I think Amigas are going to be in a rebuilding stage after OS 4.0 is released. Ben Hermans has stated (if I recall correctly) that they have recieved a lot of interest in OS 4.0 for things such as embedded systems. This should make developing AmigaOS/Amiga's viable while its being rebuilt as a desktop platform. When I say "rebuilt" I'm talking about software support. I'm not an expert, but I hope they can pull it off.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 199 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by vortexau on 09-Jul-2003 05:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Some Farker):
@Some Farker - Well said! Well said!

I have SAVED your BBRV Rangers Marching Song in my directory
named: 'LightenUp"!

Maybe a better title for 'those folk' would be: 'BBRV Stormtroopers'?

Some of their antics seem kinda small!

http://www.itsalladream.com/aft/01102201.jpg
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 200 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 09-Jul-2003 08:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Steffen Haeuser):
Steffen, how do you know that no real work was put into the A\Box or
Cyberstorm G4 projects? Just because it's not your pals working on
them, so that no one showed you the really early first steps in the
projects, doesn't mean that something like that doesn't exist. IMO
your definition is pretty close to "if it's my friends doing it, it's
real, but if it's someone else, it's vapourware".
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