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[News] Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back onlineANN.lu
Posted on 07-Jul-2003 19:46 GMT by Jens Schönfeld217 comments
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This is a show report from individual Computers about the Amiga Alpe Adria that took place in Udine, Italy this weekend, and some good news about the Commodore Billboard! This weekend, the Amiga Alpe Adria 2003 took place in Udine, Italy - another station of Amiga OS4 on tour. The show was organized by Cloanto, well-known for a lot of Amiga programs and the emulator "Amiga Forever". Jürgen Schober of Point Design had to make two OS4 presentations, because the room was totally overcrowded with more than 100 Amiga fans and journalists of daily press and computer magazines. We also had the chance to show our products in a 30-minute presentation. Best-seller of the present retailers Soft 3 and Virtual Works was the Catweasel MK3, that became the first choice accessory for many Amiga One owners because of it's high degree of integration into the hard- and software of the new Amiga.

A small Retro-computing museum right at the entrance of the showroom brought back joyful memories in the visitors. Rare items like an SX-64 in best shape, a VIC-20 rev.1, and even a C65 prototype were shown. One of the first multi-computer games (today's networking games) was shown on two PET computers that were connected through the serial ports. The home computer pioneer Altair 8800 from 1975 was the only none-Commodore computer.

The "Video Microwave", a Pegasos-board that was built in the case of a Sharp Microwave oven, was - at best - good for a laugh. The keyboard did not work at all, and it only took a few mouseclicks to make the computer with the MorphOS operating system crash. The reason for this could not be found in the short time of the show.

Commodore Billboard back online

Our good news for the fans of Commodore nostalgia almost got lost in the excitement surrounding Amiga OS4: The Commodore Billboard is back online! The initiator of the project, Søren Ladegaard (Denmark) had to drop the project due to lack of time in January 2003, and transferred the website to individual Computers. We're now sponsoring the website that can cause a lot of traffic with it's several hundred megabytes in size. During the past half year, the new webmaster Stefan Zelazny has converted the audio and video files to mpeg and mp3, so the website can be viewed on most platforms. For example, the Realplayer is not necessary any more.
Currently, the website is available under the address www.commodorebillboard.de. The .com domain will be made available in the coming weeks.
If you're interested in a local copy of the website, you can support us in paying for the high cost of the website by ordering the CD. It will be available in august this year from all our retail partners for about 15,- EUR. The double-CD package also contains some surprises for Commodore-fans!
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 51 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 22:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Lecta):
> I have to say that Morphos was version 1.1 (I don't know why Genesi sent a version so old).

My guess would be that customers running computers in their microwave don't grow on trees. This sad fact would probably limit its use to being an obscure artifact rather than a supported platform.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 52 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Lecta on 07-Jul-2003 22:43 GMT
Just to correct myself...

When the mouse was, finally, recognized it was connected by someone else, not by me, while I was away. The keyboard seemed not working at all because of the frequent crash but indeed it worked (as I already said, after some tries).
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 53 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Lecta on 07-Jul-2003 22:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Anonymous):
Sure, but if I send a demo machine where there are many machine and the OS from my competitor, I will surely send the latest and more stable version.

Or are you hinting that MorphOS 1.1 is the best and more stable version? :-)
(Just kidding!!!!) :-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 54 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 22:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Cornflack):
I do all ANN administration with my Pegasos.
I find MorphOS much less buggy than my A4000 with OS3.9.
This is why I have been using MorphOS for two years despite the fact I
had no JIT.
I don't say everything is perfect but saying it is not alpha state is
pure nonsense.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 55 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 07-Jul-2003 22:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Lecta):
the Video Microwave is an old machine at this point, it was built in the middle of last year (I believe it's a betatester or April1 board) and nobody uses it for a main machine, so upgrading it has never been a high priority.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 56 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 07-Jul-2003 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Lecta):
Lecta wrote:
> Just for a correct information..

This explains a lot. I know from personal experience that computers that have been shipped back and forth tend to start displaying erratic behavior, probably due to things coming slightly loose or even getting damaged. Add to this an old MorphOS version and problems are likely.

Most people running MorphOS report very stable operation, generally more stable than their Amigas, so people saying otherwise basically are either just guessing (wrong) or are trying to stir up trouble, as some posts in this thread show.

Relax, guys, these are just computers and computer users we're talking about. Nobody's marching in lock step; things happen, things get fixed, life goes on.

-- gary_c
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 57 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Lecta):
These are facts. If Jens would have presented it this way all the
thread would not be about that.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 58 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 08-Jul-2003 00:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (NeRP):
NeRP!!!!
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 59 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Jul-2003 00:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Jens Schönfeld):
> One thing I could have mentioned is that it really boots quite fast.> Seen it quite often this saturday :-) Hey, at least that microwave thingy was continuing old Amiga tradition there :-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 60 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 08-Jul-2003 00:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (NeRP):
Hi NeRP

> "I, a self labeled AmigaOne/AmigaOSv4 "fanatic" have to deal with a lot
worse shit from MOS type supporters. I deal with it."

I want names! Who are you refering to?
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 61 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 00:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Christophe Decanini):
Actually, the instant I read the "good for a laugh" phrase I knew this was going to turn into a 100+ thread, mostly slagging Jens off for having the temerity of expressing his opinion. NOTHING he added would have changed that.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 62 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 08-Jul-2003 00:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Anonymous):
Actually, I read that, and didnt think anything of it. My only thoughts were that 1.1 wasnt the latest version of MorphOS, so we couldnt read too much into its instability. I dont see why everyones kicked up such a fuss.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 63 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 00:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (James Carroll):
Plain and simple kneejerk reaction. "Oh, no - he said something bad about a Pegasos! my manhood has been challenged! he must be silenced at all costs!"

Sure, saying "well that was a really old machine that was probably jarred during transport" would have been a mature way of setting the record straight. The problem here is the keyword *mature*. I count two mature people in that thread (excluding me - I'm an AC ;)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 64 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by NeRP on 08-Jul-2003 01:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (James Carroll):
James, I thought 1.1 was a second release of stable, "release
ready" operating system?

A person *almost* gets the feeling that MorphOS was rushed out the
door with a 1.0 on it so that people would think "it was out and
ready".

All we need now to finish this thread is for BBRV to run in here, open
his piehole, and start spouting Greek mythology.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 65 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 01:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (NeRP):
I seem to remember bbrv saying something like "what's a version number anyway?", when MOS did a big jump from 0.x to 1.0 (x being considerably less than 9). I have a suspicion that MOS was, as you say, rushed out the door, but I think the point was to be able to say "see? WE have something people can buy. What do YOU GUYS have?" Then, defend it vigorously every time someone complains about it, *until* the next version comes out. Then agree that the previous version was actually not as good as it could have been, but *this* one will knock your socks off! Rinse and repeat...

Kinda reminds one of a certain x86 OS and office suite vendor, doesn't it?
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 66 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 01:56 GMT
A bit OT but I just browsed Individual Computers' product page. I wasn't aware that you could use the good old 6581 in the Catweasel MK3. I sure gotta get me one of those boards when I invest in a PPC Amiga!
I remember in the golden days I put together a homemade zorro card with a 6581, but never got the darn thing to work :( (it was prolly due to a defect chip, and not my soldering :-). IIRC the layout for the card was in the Frodo archive. Yep, those were the days...
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 67 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 08-Jul-2003 03:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Anonymous):
> Kinda reminds one of a certain x86 OS and office suite vendor, doesn't it

Actually, *every* product vendor trying to sell an update of a previous version is in that predicament. How do you convince the buyer that, as amazing as the previous version was, this update is an essential purchase? ;-) There might be different approaches to this problem, so more subtile, some more blatant, but they all have to deal with that. The case for an upgrade is a lot harder to make with a mature product; obviously something as young as MorphOS is going to go through dot releases fast, with so many things to do (most of these versions will be internal).

Say what you want about Genesi's product designations, descriptions, etc., the key point is that MorphOS has been available for some time now and is being steadily improved. I think the glass houses rule holds here.

-- gary_c
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 68 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 03:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (gary_c):
Quoting from another posting in this very thread:

"The system was very instable, It crashed while playing a movie with frogger, it crashed while playing with windows and with other applications, but I have to say that Morphos was version 1.1"

So, Morphos 1.1 (not a beta, IIRC) is, now that the current version is 1.3 acknowledged as being "very instable". I bet that anyone saying this a few months ago would have been given a thorough drubbing by the usual suspects.

Yes, Windows XP is a lot better than Windows 95, isn't it? ;)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 69 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 03:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (gary_c):
"the key point is that MorphOS has been available for some time now and is being steadily improved. I think the glass houses rule holds here."

I see, so what *really* counts is that it's been available for some time. The actual quality does not matter, because it's being steadily improved. This is of course quite all right because the other side does not have any OS at all.

Yes, Windows 98 *was* more stable than Windows 95, and what else are you going to run? OS/2?
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 70 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2003 04:01 GMT
Just wanted to say that i to, tought the microwave computer to be "silly" to say the least, i think i even said that in my WOASE report last year, and i also told Bill Buck this.

It might be a nice feat technicly, but it's still silly, sorry

Cheers
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 71 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 04:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (gary_c):
"Say what you want about Genesi's product designations, descriptions, etc., the key point is that MorphOS has been available for some time now and is being steadily improved. I think the glass houses rule holds here."

I would rather not buy from a company that throws a poor quality release of software out into the market early merely to score political points in the full knowledge that its fanatical userbase is bought in to hide embarassing errors and defects because the users bought based on a political decision and theres too much pride in it now.

I remember being told:

- MorphOS1.0 was a finished product even if it had a few features missing.
- MorphOS1.1 was a finished product even if it had a few features missing, MorphOS1.0 was buggy as hell.
- MorphOS1.2 was a finished product even if it had a few features missing, MorphOS1.1 was buggy as hell.
- MorphOS1.3 was a finished product even if it had a few features missing, MorphOS1.2 was buggy as hell.

The differences in approach between Hyperion and Genesi are as chalk and cheese in this matter, Hyperion desperately want to get all the instabilities, bugs and features done before releasing a full product to its consumers. Genesi does not.

Remember we had this conversation yesterday Gary when you reminded me of the "lies" that have been told which reduced the credibility of Amiga Inc. to near zero in some eyes? The same is starting to happen for Genesi BECAUSE of the inflated claims of its *supporters*.

However the culprit in this case is not Genesi - who called it a BETATESTER, it is the users, the militant ones ( and we all know who they are ) who are two faced lying hypocrites and start getting a nervous tick whenever you suggest that MorphOS might not be a production ready product and beating you over the head. I have certainly been on the recieving end of that BS many times since MorphOS1.0 came along and crashed horribly.

How about we start to get a bit of truth back in these forums? MorphOS1.0->1.3 are not finished products, MorphOS1.4 ( according to a friendly Pegasos user I know ) is getting close and is starting to address real quality and stability issues.

As far as AOS4 is concerned, this has been covered ad nauseum in the power point presentations.

Is AOS4 behind MorphOS based on what we know today? No, its just taken a different path to its end goal.

Maybe its time to stop the fight and just get on for the sake of truth?
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 72 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 08-Jul-2003 05:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (DaveP):
> I would rather not buy from a company that throws a poor quality release of software out into the market early merely to score political points ....

I don't really know, but I doubt if this was a rationale for the release. A "BetaTester" release is, after all, for beta-testing, right? And why would they "throw it out early" just for the sake of being early? It's not like they had a competitor poised to beat them to market. For pete's sake, they're on version 1.4 now and AOS4 is still months away.

> The differences in approach between Hyperion and Genesi are as chalk and cheese in this matter, Hyperion desperately want to get all the instabilities, bugs and features done before releasing a full product to its consumers. Genesi does not.

Obviously, this is speculation. You are assuming that because Hyperion is taking longer that its product will be more stable and bug-free. *It just might be taking longer.* :-) Of course you could be right, but this doesn't logically follow, based on time to market alone. In the fall or at the end of the year, when AOS4 is released, we can then compare it to MOS. Again, you can hardly characterize Hyperion's approach-and-results one way or the other since it hasn't happened yet.

> However the culprit in this case is not Genesi - who called it a BETATESTER, it is the users, the militant ones ( and we all know who they are ) who are two faced lying hypocrites and start getting a nervous tick whenever you suggest that MorphOS might not be a production ready product and beating you over the head.

I prescribe a nice mug of warm milk. You seem to be getting a bit overexcited, Dave. :-) Of people actually using MorphOS, I don't recall seeing any making the kind of claims you describe. Yes, it is quite stable and some have switched to it full-time, but I don't think anyone would claim it's ready for the masses, right out of the box. It doesn't have lots of things implemented yet, but the things that are there seem to work solidly.

> Maybe its time to stop the fight and just get on for the sake of truth?

Your opening paragraph here reveals you as a combatant as well as correspondent. If you're so enthused about stopping the fighting, then refraining from inflammatory statements like those in your post could help somewhat. Beyond that, some people seem to be suffering from a toy shortage. Once they have something that occupies them, maybe they'll have less time for stirring the muck.

-- gary_c
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 73 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 06:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (gary_c):
"For pete's sake, they're on version 1.4 now and AOS4 is still months away."
"...based on time to market alone"

Looks like you're focused on that MorphOS is here now and AmigaOS is not, therefore MorphOS is a solid OS. Forget AmigaOS4, that may or may not arrive at all. The problem here is that you lot are being deluded by a company that knowingly sells defective operating systems, and is using Amiga Inc as a smokescreen when stuff goes wrong. You are so blinded by the "fact" that Amiga Inc is "evil" that you're being bilked and don't even know it. Forget Amiga Inc - THAT IS NOT THE ENEMY, they can barely keep going as it is. The ENEMY is the company that is stringing you along with expensive, underpowered hardware (yes, the AmigaOne is also expensive and underpowered, but you're so blinded by hatred that you can't see that the Pegasos is ALSO a joke). Eventually you lot will wake up and realize that while the rest of the world is using 10GHz, 64 bit CPUs, you're still stuck with 3GHz, 32 bit scrap that everyone else is running on their emulators.

Can I interest you in an Atari 2600? I can guarantee that AmigaOS won't run on it (no dongle! yeah! death to HypeOS and McBill!), and I hear rumours that a Morphos port is being planned, just after they finish the Mac port...
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 74 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 06:26 GMT
DaveP etc: what are you all smoking ?

I'm using MorphOS / Pegasos since october 2002, as my main machine. Since the beginning of this year (when I got April 1), I experience very rare crashes. Much less than my former Amiga. What annoyed me the most is the articia bugs.

Users nevers said MOS was unstable. Only people who heard rumours. Of course, it lacks many things, but its core is light years more mature than the OS4 ones, and the extra stuff (like the ones shown at the OS4 on tour) are progressively being given.

This Microoven must be defective, have a problem, this is stupid to base one's opinion on that.

You really can't compare the two systems (OS4, MOS), because they were developped in a different order. in MOS, the core, most important parts were done since 1999 or 2000 (I don't remember). Then, they rewrote & enhanced the entire AmigaOS API. For OS4, they already have all the API, and rewrote & improved some parts, and at the same time, the core Hyperion team rewrote Exec, the emu etc... --> those are not mature yet. MOS 1.4 (in two weeks) will have a very mature JIT (works since 2001 I think but still had some issues) - benefits from a much longer experience - and many other things. MOS was written from scratch with an original design which will enable it to evolve easily in the future. This is an excellent product.

What's my point ? You are all ridiculous. MOS fans attacking OS4. OS4 fans attacking MOS.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 75 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 06:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (mahen):
(I didn't even mention the fact that MOS is developed on Pegasos since a few years ago & tested on the buggy articia in real life conditions.... or that fact that the persons who designed the hardware and the fix belong to the same company...)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 76 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 06:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (gary_c):
>> I would rather not buy from a company that throws a poor quality release of software out into the market early merely to score political points ....

>I don't really know, but I doubt if this was a rationale for the release.

See later on.

> A "BetaTester" release is, after all, for beta-testing, right? And why would they "throw it out early" just for the sake of being early? It's not like they had a competitor poised to beat them to market.

Ahem, at the time, time to market was the key to establish credentials. Unless of course the passage of time is of an entirely different physical manifestation in Japan?

> For pete's sake, they're on version 1.4 now and AOS4 is still months away.

This is now and that was then.

> > The differences in approach between Hyperion and Genesi are as chalk and cheese in this matter, Hyperion desperately want to get all the instabilities, bugs and features done before releasing a full product to its consumers. Genesi does not.

> Obviously, this is speculation. You are assuming that because Hyperion is taking longer that its product will be more stable and bug-free.

No. I am talking about motives here, Hyperions motives are to release a solid product as OS4.0 to the general product. Genesi *released* a product to the general public as "betatesters" which was far from complete, stable or bug free. THEREFORE Genesis motives are already established - to get the credibility of releasing something. Hyperions you will have to take my word on I guess unless Ben or one of the Friedens have posted something public about this.


>> However the culprit in this case is not Genesi - who called it a BETATESTER, it is the users, the militant ones ( and we all know who they are ) who are two faced lying hypocrites and start getting a nervous tick whenever you suggest that MorphOS might not be a production ready product and beating you over the head.
> I prescribe a nice mug of warm milk. You seem to be getting a bit overexcited, Dave. :-)

Hardly, just painting it as I see it. Have you forgotten the discussions where certain persons claimed that only the Pegasos board was "betatester" the OS was released?

>> Maybe its time to stop the fight and just get on for the sake of truth?
> Your opening paragraph here reveals you as a combatant as well as correspondent.

Nothing I have ever denied.

> If you're so enthused about stopping the fighting, then refraining from inflammatory statements like those in your post could help somewhat.

Uh huh, remember that the opening paragraph was following a quote from your post, which said:

"Say what you want about Genesi's product designations, descriptions, etc., the key point is that MorphOS has been available for some time now and is being steadily improved. I think the glass houses rule holds here."

Right, then I express a preference. If you find that preference inflammatory then I suggest a nice cup of warm milk.

MorphOS has been available as a BETA for anyone who cares to buy a Pegasos 1 board. AmigaOS4 has been available as a BETA for anyone who is on a closed list of betatesters. Genesi choses to ship MorphOS as a product ( M day anyone? ) whilst people like you claim that it is a "product that is available" - the key word being product here.

If you make something substandard available as a "product" then there are several ways of doing it:

1. Run a beta programme, closed list, everyone knows what they are there for but its just that a "beta" and not released to the general market. Strict conditions and problems are sorted out away from the glare of public view.
+ When product becomes generally available it is reasonbly fit for mass consumption and servicing costs are lower.
- Takes longer behind closed doors, looks like you havent released anything.
- Competitors can claim vapourware.

2. Make a limited availability programme ( often called tech previews ) which is basically saying public beta. People download things on their own heads. It isn't a real product yet.
+ You can claim its out there, people are using it other than internal testers.
+ Mindshare, early adopters.
- You expose yourself to potential ridicule with silly bugs and crashes.
- Too many claims about it being out in the wild can lose you credibiliy.
- Public exposure of problems means you put of potential customers.
- Higher servicing costs whilst testing is ongoing.
- Potential duplicate defect reports and debugging costs to establish this are much higher.

3. Release it anyway, its a product, its out there.
+ You can claim its out there.
+ Mindshare, early adopters.
- You are going to get known for releasing shoddy products before the are ready.

Now to me ( and this is what I said ) Genesi did #2 but people such as yourselves continually claim its in category #3. Hyperion are doing #1.

It is the people that claim it is in category #3 when it suits them ( oh its released but AOS4 isn't - and you do this in your reply ) and then its in category #2 when it has bugs ( "its no for general consumption" "its really a betatester" and you do this in your reply ) and problems in the public eye that I find hard to give any credibility to.

Interestingly both pegasos owners that I have had *technical* conversations with in private are limited by what they can say by NDAs. :-D

For the fighting to stop, the BS has to stop. I see no reason to stop posting controversial stuff, you do not need to be PC to have a valid point.

> Beyond that, some people seem to be suffering from a toy shortage. Once they have something that occupies them, maybe they'll have less time for stirring the muck.

But Gary, you have put your Pegasos together now yes? ;)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 77 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 06:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (mahen):
@mahen

This is the real world, please try to live in it and accept that "MorphOS" fans have BS'd when it suited them please.

As to this:

"(I didn't even mention the fact that MOS is developed on Pegasos since a few years ago & tested on the buggy articia in real life conditions.... or that fact that the persons who designed the hardware and the fix belong to the same company...)"

You just did and how irrelevant that looks.

MorphOS was either a fully released product at 1.0 as claimed, or it is not. It is either fully released product now, or it isn't.

Choose, you can't claim both anymore, its BS.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 78 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 06:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (DaveP):
DaveP : I fully understand your point. BUT this is not as easy as you think. As I said above, you CAN'T compare the products. Why ?

- when MOS was released, NOTHING AT ALL was usable in the OS4 camp. Only 68k modules which worked on OS 3.9. MOS was minimalistic but worked OK. People who bought it were betatesters and agreed to do that. There are always also been internal betatesters for less stable things. MOS was 100% PPC but lacking a few things (like the arexx reimplementation). MOS was already PUP, WUP, MOS, 68k compatible ;) BT1 could have the JIT emulator.

- when the BT2 were released (beg 2003), NOTHING AT ALL was usable in the OS4 camp - that is to say, PPC OS, ExegNG, unusable. Same situation. MOS was quite stable. Not fully features, but it was OK for people who didn't particularly need the extra stuff. It could become the main machine of many persons. Many extra suffs, less stable, unfinished are being betatesters internally so we don't have them yet. You can see there are several levels of testing. MOS is still 100% PPC.

- Today, OS4 is getting usable apparently on classic Amigas. 68k emus are not really ready yet but work. JIT is far from it. And has many interesting modules etc that MOS 1.3 doesn't have. MOS 1.4 will be there and have many extra stuff. Mature JIT emu. Full 3D support, etc etc. So that will be comparable. Except MOS runs on modern hardware, and that its core has been tested since 99, and is 100% PPC. OS4 is about 50% PPC. OS4 doesn't work on AmigaOne. (only exec SG with some text stuff) Many drivers missing.

- Tomorrow, OS4 will be there on classic amiga, with many extra stuffs. We DON'T KNOWN about stability, compatibility. MOS 1.x will bring even more things for Pegasos (2) G4 owners.
- Later, OS4 will be ready for A1. MOS will be even more mature. At those points, both products will be comparable and it's gonna be interesting. But when will it be ?


Maybe, in the end, both OS'es will be comparable ? Except MOS's design is much better thought and ready for the future. (you can say it's subjective, but it's obviously not). But considering the order of dev was different for OS4 and MOS, you can't say the first betatesters should have been internal, b/c MOS was already usable.

So it's 100% utter bullshit to say that : MOS is unstable, MOS shouldn't be sold etc etc. It's just not comparable. You got the most important part ready & quite stable since the beginning. Very good to have a broader testing and get more developers ready. On modern hardware.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 79 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:01 GMT
DaveP :

> MorphOS was either a fully released product at 1.0 as claimed, or it is not.
> It is either fully released product now, or it isn't.

> Choose, you can't claim both anymore, its BS.

No, you can't claim any. Please don't think in binary. The world is more complicated than that. You think this way because it happens that when OS4 is usable, many other modules will be ready too. While the MOS core was ready much earlier. It's due to the fact that MOS could have been sold, a long time ago, with the WB3.1. MOS' core was ready, but then the reimplementation of the API had to be done and took a looong time. (while the OS4 team already had everything).

So please, accept that both products followed a different path and that you can't really compare this.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 80 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (mahen):
"So it's 100% utter bullshit to say that : MOS is unstable, MOS shouldn't be sold etc etc."

If a version of MOS crashes randomly with mouse clicks ( 1.1 ) then I would not release it to the beta testers, it wouldn't get out of unit testing.

Nuff said.

" It's just not comparable. You got the most important part ready & quite stable since the beginning. Very good to have a broader testing and get more developers ready. On modern hardware."

Quite, I don't have a problem with that. But until Bill Buck sayes "MorphOS 1.4 is not a beta" MorphOS releases are betas.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 81 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 79 (mahen):
Oh I am the one saying that they followed different paths. Are we talking at cross purposes here?

A product is either in beta or its released. It cannot be both even if that beta release is to a self selecting limited group of testers in the public domain.

The Pegasos hardware is the limiting factor here. On OS4 the limiting factor is those that are OS4 beta testers.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 82 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (DaveP):
DaveP:

of course it is beta. Wake up, it is the Amiga World !!! Not MOS nor OS4 are ready for the mass market !!!!!! But FOR an Amigan, I think MOS is currently ready. Ready, but not complete, as updates frequently bring new things. But it you want, we can say it's beta. But personnally I don't mind. Just like the version AOS4 versions that are planned for september will be betas. (was officially said). So the internal betas are not as mature as betas given to public betatesters. Just like the BT1 receive things already internally tested. And the BT2 receive things already much tested by the BT1.

> If a version of MOS crashes randomly with mouse clicks ( 1.1 ) then I would
> not release it to the beta testers, it wouldn't get out of unit testing.

It's ridiculous. Either their machine or installation had a problem. I had this version and had no such problems.

> Quite, I don't have a problem with that. But until Bill Buck sayes "MorphOS
> 1.4 is not a beta" MorphOS releases are betas.

If you want, it's beta. But there's a difference between the internal betas, and the public ones. Between the BT1 and the BT2. The BT2 could be any amiga. But not the mass market, because the AmigaOS or A/Box has biiggg lacks (like a true memory protection) The public ones, (like the MOS 1.4 we will have in a few weeks) are already much tested.

Please be more moderate. All your points are 100% anti MOS.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 83 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (mahen):
(also, all OS'es evolving constantly, we can always say they're beta. But considering the time taken for the new MOS 1.4 upgrade, I think it's been extremely tested to avoid this kind of remarks)

Anyway, those threads are so tiring... This is my last post, so DaveP you can answer to have the last word, as you like to ;)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 84 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (mahen):
DaveP:

> of course it is beta. Wake up, it is the Amiga World !!! Not MOS nor OS4 are > ready for the mass market !!!!!!
> But FOR an Amigan, I think MOS is currently ready.

So Amigans should accept lower quality products than the rest of the world? It used to be the other way around.

> But it you want, we can say it's beta.

Until someone who has credibility sayes its not ( like Bill Buck - the figurehead ) then its beta.

> So the internal betas are not as mature as betas given to public betatesters.

Its swings and roundabouts if a company decides to do a "public beta" then they generally have a certain level of confidence in it, however I have worked on internal betas that were as good in quality terms as the final product.

>> If a version of MOS crashes randomly with mouse clicks ( 1.1 ) then I would
>> not release it to the beta testers, it wouldn't get out of unit testing.
> It's ridiculous.

Im glad you see it that way too. But this is in the "-" points, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

> Either their machine or installation had a problem. I had this version and had no such problems.

Well unfortunately its what gets shown in public that counts and both Bill Buck and Ben Hermans know this.

>> Quite, I don't have a problem with that. But until Bill Buck sayes "MorphOS
>> 1.4 is not a beta" MorphOS releases are betas.
> The public ones, (like the MOS 1.4 we will have in a few weeks) are already much tested.

Look forward to it.

> Please be more moderate. All your points are 100% anti MOS.

Come on! All my points are 100% anti-MOS - get a grip man. :-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 85 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (DaveP):
It's impossible to discuss with you, because you can't abandon the idea that MOS is crap, low quality, unstable etc, while it's not true.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 86 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (mahen):
I never said it was crap, I said that 1.1 was unstable ( public ), that each time we have a new release someone sayes the previous release was really buggy and I don't buy products from companies that "release" substandard software to the real world.

Such a terrible man I am!

I also said, if you stopped looking through glasses of blind hatred, on several threads that 1.4 was looking to be a far superior release in terms of quality and stability.

Oh and I also pointed out the harsh real world of political gain by "releasing" something early.

If I thought MorphOS was crap, I wouldn't offer my help to bring it to AmigaONE now would I?

All I want is for you to admit its still in "Beta" until the company that owns it sayes otherwise. Come on you can do it!
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 87 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (DaveP):
And about this microoven, noone from genesi was there. This is a really strange affair.

At the others shows, the Pegasos'es could all be touched by anyone. To make it crash, it's very easy, just launch a piece of software that is buggy : though there is a limited form of memory protection, just like OS4, it can destroy the system.

This IS AmigaOS. AmigaOS is crap ! AmigaOS is old. AmigaOS had many limitations. AmigaOS is for diehard fans. (just like the A/Box of course)

Anyway, IF you had really used a pegasos, you would have noticed that by using not buggy application, it never crashes, and is a very fast & pleasant computer. Even if it's a beta for you.

Anyway, you don't care.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 88 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (DaveP):
I don't think MOS 1.1 was that buggy. It was already very usable. (was april there at this time BTW ?) It was already my main machine. If I answer this way, it's because *I* feel you answer in a sided / agressive / blind way.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 89 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 87 (mahen):
"And about this microoven, noone from genesi was there. This is a really strange affair. "

Yep.

"At the others shows, the Pegasos'es could all be touched by anyone. To make it crash, it's very easy, just launch a piece of software that is buggy : though there is a limited form of memory protection, just like OS4, it can destroy the system. "

I think we all know the limitations of AmigaOS by now. This particular version ( or was it 1.0 and 1.1 was "much better"? ) also caused Genesi some embarassment at WOASE by being buggy enough to crash when opening a window ( an OS window, not an app ).

"This IS AmigaOS. AmigaOS is crap ! AmigaOS is old. AmigaOS had many limitations. AmigaOS is for diehard fans. (just like the A/Box of course)"

AmigaOS is not crap, and nor is MorphOS. AmigaOS just needs a hell of a lot of work to make it capable of coping with unstable applications without breaking ( too much ) backward compatibility.

"Anyway, IF you had really used a pegasos, you would have noticed that by using not buggy application, it never crashes, and is a very fast & pleasant computer. Even if it's a beta for you. "

Ive used a Pegasos, at WOASE as well, and maybe Ambient is the buggy application you were referring to. Of course its fast, its basically an OS design that was originally developed for far slower hardware.

"Anyway, you don't care."
Which is, as usual, far from the truth.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 90 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (DaveP):
I said it was beta. But I said it was already very usable for any amigan :) So, the beta term can have different meanings.

OK, forgive me DaveP for being agressive too, but I'm fed up with all that ;)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 91 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 89 (DaveP):
Oops, if there is one very important thing I forgot (hehe ;) to mention, it's that you are completely right saying Ambient is unusable. There were some Ambient versions very unstable. I hope it's gonna be much improved in MOS 1.4. I only use it to launch apps. For the rest. Shell + dopus4.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 92 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (mahen):
@mahen

"If I answer this way, it's because *I* feel you answer in a sided / agressive / blind way."

OK, thats your perception. I get the impression that it does not matter what I say. However this I do object to "blind way". Please point out where and why or retract that one. What have I been "blind" about? If there are facts I am unaware of then that is one thing, blind suggests I am deliberately ignoring something that you know I am already aware of.

Please set me right. :-)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 93 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (DaveP):
Well, it's just a feeling I had, by reading all this annoying thread. So I don't remember exactly.

I thought you said that all versions were reported to be buggy as hell. Which is not true. I think no version of MOS was buggy as hell at all.

Or the fact that you insist on the fact that MOS shouldn't be sold because it's beta. And that is was done on purpose to overtake OS4. But the situation is not comparable at all because MOS had a mature core since a long time ago, though OS4 only recently began to work (on the new exec, with the emu etc), so the API reimplementation had some lacks and the package was quite minimalistic, but it was sufficient to be sold to some warned customers & make them happy. (while OS4 could never have been sold this way).

And the fact that you seemed to consider that the MOS the buyers have is at the same level of an internal beta. The "beta" they get is already much tested internally, and always usable.

But you're right saying it's still beta. However, I think both OS4 and MOS will remain beta for years :)

Sorry for answering in an agressive way before. We can try to understand each other :)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 94 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 93 (mahen):
And also, the fact that I _thought_ that each time you took part in a MOS discussion, it was to say negative things :)

Anyway, all this blabbering is stupid & useless, so let me apologize one more time :)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 95 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 08-Jul-2003 07:54 GMT
Hehe, everyone gets suddenly silent :)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 96 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jul-2003 07:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 95 (mahen):
@mahen

OK we cool :)
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 97 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jul-2003 08:38 GMT
Some people just seem to have too much time at hands. The Microwave thingie is a toy, it's only there for a wow-factor and thats about it. A friend of mine built a pc in to a Nikko-like toycar.. it looks pretty damn nice and I couldn't care less how instable it runs XP (this one being in server use). It has ONLY wow-factor meaning to me.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 98 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Ian Shurmer on 08-Jul-2003 08:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Some Farker):
ROTFL!

That was good :-)

Ian
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 99 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 08-Jul-2003 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (mahen):
>JIT is far from it.

How keeps coming up with this nonsense?

Petunia has been in development for almost three years now, it has been thoroughly tested.

The planning on how to integrate it into the OS have been made during many, many months and 2 developers are working on nothing but that.
Show report: AAA 2003, Commodore Billboard back online : Comment 100 of 217ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Jul-2003 08:53 GMT
I think this was a rather bad comment, too. Something like "Genesi
showed bad judgement by demoing a broken machine" might perhaps be
warranted, but not this *general* comment about some obviously quite
*specific* problem.

For example, I could have written this about the OS4 demo in Sweden:
"OS4, which is not really an OS but more like a flawed kernel with a
(very slow) semi-working 68k emulator, was a good laugh. For obvious
reasons, people were not allowed to try it out themselves, but the OS4
team demoed some advanced features such as opening windows, displaying
icons and typing 'list' in a shell window. They tried moving windows
too, but needless to say, this was too much, the system crashed."

While this is not a lie, it's still not what I wanted to report, for
a reason. For example, I've no idea if the bugs and crashes I saw
were representative. Also, if I'm writing a show report, I shouldn't
expect people to be overly interested in my own speculations and
judgements, it's better to just report what you see.

To Jens: Have you ever had a bad review, someone who put down your
entire product because the reviewer was too lazy/ignorant to get it
working properly? Well, if not - don't be too upset when it happens..

To everyone else: Please, everyone has bad days - boycotting Jens'
products makes no sense just because of a few comments here and there.
I'm not sure what caused this animosity from Jens' side but if I'm not
mistaken it's a really trivial mistake from Genesi that started it..
would be quite a pity if something like that caused serious
disagreement in the Amiga+compatibles developer scene.
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