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[Files] SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis supportANN.lu
Posted on 23-Jul-2003 22:05 GMT by Joël EHRET (Edited on 2003-07-24 16:07:08 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)96 comments
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SongPlayer comes back ! SongPlayer is a famous music player written by Stéphane Tavenard. Thanks to him, the development started again some months ago. The major improvment is a MorphOS version which uses AHI only (no more hardware access) and plays Ogg Vorbis files !! Comments and suggestions are welcome. You will find information about SongPlayer on the new SongPlayer Website. The archive will be available on Aminet in few days too. http://amigadev.free.fr/songplayer
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 51 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 24-Jul-2003 18:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
I don't care about others, but if it compresses at half the size from an mp3 and with at least as good sound quality, I really don't care about MP#, I hear mp3 from net but when I do backup my CD collection I do make them Ogg... It's about having the same but on less space... a bit like Amiga who do the same with less and faster...
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 52 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 24-Jul-2003 18:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (XraalE):
You have good points. But hey, I disagree you on PNG thingie.. I find it a very good format.

Anyway, I just noticed something. I have a broken MP3 here.. when I play it with:

- Winamp, it skips many(3-5?) seconds at 0:22
- MPGA, it gets screwed. Sound is unrecognisable
- AmiNetRadio2, it starts to loop at 0:22 for the last few seconds before 0:22
- SongPlayer, skips maybe half a second, if not less

SP scores one point :)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 53 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 24-Jul-2003 19:05 GMT
I've only now seen that you were being sarcastic...

Ogg have it's porposes, I use it for copying my cd collection because it gives me (at 120kb) half the size of MP3 with better sound at least on my hears, as I don't go for anyother else ears and have to stick with them I found this very good news if only for those who have the same experience as I, or/and haven't been poisened yet by mp3 marketing...

So you see, I don't know how mp3 files could be smaller, only if they are made with lesser kbs... as for sound quality *I* found 120kb on ogg way better then 160kb on mp3.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 54 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 24-Jul-2003 19:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (XraalE):
>> Hence I use ogg instead of mp3 on both my PDA and phone - idiot!
> And yet it won't work on about 99.9% of electronic devices that support mp3...making ogg as about
> as much use as a peice of wet string to a man with diarrea. :)

It will work in about any Epoc equipped cellular phone or PDA
It works on any PocketPC driven phone or PDA
It works in any Linux driven PDA
It works on about any slightly modern computer system you can dig up.

Only thing you are correct about are dedicated player equipment, well, those wont be around for long as most people's cellephones will include players.

> > So what? Who the f*** uses Amiga anyways?

> Most of the people who use songplayer, you moron. If they didn't use Amigas they'd use
> WinAMP or xmms.

Or zinf, noatun, juk, iTuner etc - all supporting ogg

>> It introduces extra potential bugs (ogg code is NOT cleverly written!)
>> Ofcourse this is only a problem on amiga, so who cares

> It's not. The ogg code has very little error checking. If something goes wrong there are no
> checks to prevent the whole thing going bang.

"ogg code"?

It's a fileformat, not a program.

As for going bang, that is never a problem with mp3, especially not on amiga, huh? Right.

> Just the kind of crap coding I'd expect from the *ix side...Amazing what you can get away
> with in a memory protected system.

So please show them how to code a better ogg-player.

> No wonder linux is such a mess.

It is indeed a mess - but the fact that the end result in general works a heck lot better than amiga
in many ways also says alot about amiga right? :)

>> 5000 users? Hah.. you liar, it's common knowledge that there are not so many amiga users

> Wrong.

Oh? Prove it!

> So either ogg becomes MUCH more popular (its a dead format right now, btw), or we don't see
> the point in wasting our time on it. What will you be asking for next, soundblaster VOC file support??

No, wma.

> Never mind - yet another reason not use Amiga, right? :)

> We don't have to use our Amigas to play an extremely rare, self-declared sound "standard"
> released by a few linux coders that are too tight-arsed to pay licencing fees for a far
> superior technology than some bloated and buggy code they hammered together instead.

Aha - and did you pay the license fee?

> The PNG sank like a stone. The ogg will too.

PNG didnt sink, it's actually used quite extensively, and not only for web.
MorphOS' Ambient uses PNG for icons, what a bunch of loosers huh?

> If you have ogg, just converted it to mp3.

Right - and perhaps you, who are so immensly great (gosh, we're really impressed down here) could create such a wonder tool, that does the converting from one lossy format to another lossy format, without losing even more quality - come on o' master, the sheep are waiting!

>Obsolete file formats should not be supported by any hardware or software.

Indeed, formats like ASCII text, GIF, IFF, HTML, TeX, PostScript etc
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 55 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Jul-2003 20:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
>It will work in about any Epoc equipped cellular phone or PDA
>It works on any PocketPC driven phone or PDA
>It works in any Linux driven PDA

Feel free to add "all newer PalmOS PDAs" to that list.
There are several players who will happily play Ogg on Tungsten and the new Zire PDAs - AeroPlayer being one of them.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 56 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Jul-2003 20:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (XraalE):
"png SANK like a stone"
i should be recompensed by the price of the biggest joke of the week
;)
do you know another free image format that allow to store an alpha
channel ?
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 57 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Jul-2003 20:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (Anonymous):
ooops : *YOU* should ... ;)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 58 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by XraalE on 24-Jul-2003 21:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
>It will work in about any Epoc equipped cellular phone or PDA
.
Rare.
.
>It works on any PocketPC driven phone or PDA
.
Rare.
.
It works in any Linux driven PDA
It works on about any slightly modern computer system you can dig up.
.
So? It's not useful outside linux except for extremely expensive gadgetry few people have.
.
>"ogg code"? It's a fileformat, not a program.
.
Quit being pedantic. You link or add ogg to any program you want, just like the JPEG, PNG or MPEG formats. You don't just get a fileformat and work your way around it blindly, you know.
.
>So please show them how to code a better ogg-player.
.
Why?
.
>>> 5000 users? Hah.. you liar, it's common knowledge that there are not so many amiga users
> Wrong.
>Oh? Prove it!
.
Prove it's not. You made the original accusation, it's up to you to cough up the data.
.
>Aha - and did you pay the license fee?
.
The fee applies only to the encoder. I've never programmed an mp3 encoder and am not about to.
.
>> The PNG sank like a stone. The ogg will too.
>PNG didnt sink, it's actually used quite extensively, and not only for web.
>MorphOS' Ambient uses PNG for icons, what a bunch of loosers huh?
.
The PNG standard has pretty much been abandoned. While it was far superior to GIF and its loss was not a good thing for anyone, it failed in one major way: it didn't get mainstream acceptance. Without that, it doesn't matter how good your fileformat is or how nicely its handled - it dies.
.
>> If you have ogg, just converted it to mp3.
>Right - and perhaps you, who are so immensly great (gosh, we're really >impressed down here) could create such a wonder tool, that does the converting >from one lossy format to another lossy format, without losing even more >quality - come on o' master, the sheep are waiting!
.
Use your linux PDA. :)
.
>>Obsolete file formats should not be supported by any hardware or software.
>Indeed, formats like ASCII text, GIF, IFF, HTML, TeX, PostScript etc
.
You seem to have misunderstood the meaning of obsolete and I can only recommend you quickly furnish yourself with a dictionary. It does not mean "old". It means "no longer necessary". While I would agree that IFF is obsolete, I wouldn't last long if I had no software support for the others.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 59 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by cahva on 25-Jul-2003 05:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
> > So what? Who the f*** uses Amiga anyways?

Can I ask you what why are you posting to amiga news site if you hate Amiga so much?

>> The PNG sank like a stone. The ogg will too.
>PNG didnt sink, it's actually used quite extensively, and not only for web.
MorphOS' Ambient uses PNG for icons, what a bunch of loosers huh?

Correction: You can throw any imageformat as a MOS-icon that has a datatype for it. PNG is only the default.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 60 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 25-Jul-2003 07:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Roj):
"As an "old school" audiophile I can easily tell the difference between CD and properly cared-for vinyl. "

A CD played on what player? There is a colossal difference in quality between a good average CD player and a high quality one.

Starting from an analog master tape, the vinyl has to go through a disc cutter (with mechanical resonances), a pickup and arm (geometrical distortion from the stylus plus mechanical resonances) and an input circuit (hard to design well for low signals). A CD has to go through an A->D converter (very hard to design well, but much improved in recent years) and a D->A converter (same situation).

The great majority of D->A conversion circuits out there are of poor or very poor quality. This may be affecting your view.

Digital audio _can_ be good.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 61 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Gareth Knight on 25-Jul-2003 07:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (XraalE):
>We don't have to use our Amigas to play an extremely rare, self-declared >sound "standard" released by a few linux coders that are too tight-arsed to >pay licencing fees for a far superior technology than some bloated and buggy >code they hammered together instead. The PNG sank like a stone. The ogg will >too.

Perhaps your argument was true last year, but Ogg has made leaps and bounds in public support. It is hardly an extremely rare, self-declared sound standard. If there is a desire to play it (which there obviously is), why ignore it?
Oh, and MP3 isn't superior, it's popularity is due to its efficient file size.

>If you have ogg, just converted it to mp3. Obsolete file formats should not be >supported by any hardware or software.

Lossless-to-lossless conversion will reduce audio quality further. If you have the original recording it may be useful to convert it to MP3, but cross-format conversion isn't recommended.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 62 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 25-Jul-2003 07:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (hooligan/dcs):
"There is supposedly a difference between audio cables aswell. I have listened from $2/m to $200/m in the same listeningroom at a Hi-Fi exhibition. Not a single person heard the difference there, including me."

I think you will get the biggest effects from cables when the output stage of box A and/or the input of box B are badly designed. A good output should be able to drive any old cable without problems. They were probably demonstrating the cables with good equipment.

Many consumer-grade boxes have weak output stages.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 63 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 25-Jul-2003 07:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (hooligan/dcs):
"Ogg is better than MP3, no doubt. That CAN be heard using decent audio equipment at home. Also, I myself tend to burn mp3's to audiotracks and listen them with cd-player instead playing them from PC, as no matter how expensive your soundcard is, it always loses when it comes to sound quality."

I do the same.

There _are_ good quality sound cards with external D->A converters which are good enough to use for mastering in studios, but I don't have one (and there wouldn't be an Amiga driver).

Ideally, it would be better to use only lossless compression, but you are then looking at about 300 Megs of data for an hour of 16/44.1 audio. No worse than downloading a Linux distro, but you don't want to do it too often.

I noticed a big difference in sound quality between the various versions of mpega.library for Amiga. It's likely that with more sophisticated algorithms, the sound from MP3s could be improved further.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 64 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 25-Jul-2003 07:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Roj):
I'm not a real expert on all this, but I was under the impression that it was OGG that used really old compression techniques. The patents that fraunhoffer obtained are now mostly based on techniques invented after they applied for their patents. It's a very weird patent loophole that allows you to update your patent on the fly. I'm not even sure that mp3 really worked when they applied and others have ironed the problems out for them.

A free mp3 player doesn't even have to pay license fees, although that doesn't help the people that sell free software.

I don't have a problem with either format, I don't even have any ogg files. I seriously wonder about people that are against a specific file format, this isn't a religion.

Phill
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 65 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Thematic on 25-Jul-2003 08:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Roj):
But MPEG audio layer 2 (which is hardly older than Amiga, 1 is?) is considerably worse in quality to a properly encoded -3-, this is audible with Paula 14-bit playback.

I switched to encoding my CDs as ogg as soon as it was possible with 68060.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 66 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Roj on 25-Jul-2003 09:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (Don Cox):
That depends on what you're listening for. Does a viola on CD sound like a viola? Sure it does, that's not my point. But where it does show up is in the placement of that viola within the listening area. Whether the result of recording media or method, analog recordings tend to have a slightly sharper "visual" image than CDs. Given the choice, I'd listen to a classical recording on vinyl before I'd listen to the same recording on CD. Closing my eyes, I can pinpoint exact locations of the instruments in the orchestra. CDs in comparison have a slightly murky image, at least on my system.

As far as my CD player goes, I own a high-end Denon CD player. When I made my purchasing decision, I compared it against several other models. I don't generally listen to music at the music store, so I don't make my purchasing decisions there either. I bring several home and compare them, then return the ones that dodn't make the cut. The Denon deck was far and away the best of the bunch in several areas.

When I get the time, I'll make some MP3 and OGG compressions of some of my better stuff and see which format fares best. I'm somewhat curious.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 67 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Gary Butler on 25-Jul-2003 09:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Roj):
Where can I buy a set of these speakers?
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 68 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 25-Jul-2003 09:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Don Cox):
> burn mp3's to audiotracks and listen them with cd-player instead playing them from PC

I dont get this part. "Restoring" mp3 back to audiotrack does not improve the quality.
Is the argument that your CD player is hooked to a better sound system?
Why not get a audio card with digitial out, and hook it to the digial in on the amplifier?
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 69 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Jul-2003 10:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (Roj):
""analog recordings tend to have a slightly sharper "visual" image than CDs. Given the choice, I'd listen to a classical recording on vinyl before I'd listen to the same recording on CD. Closing my eyes, I can pinpoint exact locations of the instruments in the orchestra. CDs in comparison have a slightly murky image, at least on my system.""

i agree.

recording on vinyl can go upto 60Khz analog, no bits no digital slicing is needed so you can have sounds that are nearly as high as 60Khz output.

CD recording is done at 44.1Khz digital, already its lower than vinyl.
Then you have to factor in the 16/bits & digital slicing which limits sounds to as high as 22.5Khz output.

vinyl sounds smoother while digital can sound harsh at times.
When CD's & players start comming out at 96Khz 24bits then things should start to sound more like what they should, seeing as they say the human ear on avg can pickup 20Khz-20hz,[which i think needs revising] having output limit of 48Khz should cover it.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 70 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Albatorsk on 25-Jul-2003 10:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (XraalE):
Yeah, it'a completely dead format now. None of the projects on the following page uses it: http://wiki.xiph.org/GamesThatUseVorbis
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 71 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 25-Jul-2003 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.62.32) on 25-Jul-2003 11:44:09

I dont get this part. "Restoring" mp3 back to audiotrack does not improve the quality.
Is the argument that your CD player is hooked to a better sound system?
Why not get a audio card with digitial out, and hook it to the digial in on the amplifier?
------------------------
That is exactly the reason. Oh I'm not that interested in putting more money to a pc I don't use that much anyway... we'll see.. maybe someday.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 72 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Albatorsk on 25-Jul-2003 10:22 GMT
Seriously, guys. What are you smoking? MP3's smaller than OGG's? At the same bitrate? Anyone care to explain that? How is that even possible? Can you even call it a bitrate if it isn't?

If anything, you could say that the OGG Vorbis codec produces smaller sized files than the MP3 in the same quality, by for example being 128Kbps instead of for example an MP3 at 160Kbps.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 73 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 25-Jul-2003 10:32 GMT
Not read any of these comments but here's the lowdown

* You need a license to decode / encode MP3s
* Converting an MP3 to an OGG or vice versa will cause loss of quality
* Converting an MP3 / OGG to WAV / IFF will not restore quality, it's like
converting a JPEG to an IFF and expecting the quality to improve.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 74 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Roj on 25-Jul-2003 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Gary Butler):
I don't think you can buy them new anymore. Boston kind of went downhill on speaker quality shortly after they made these. I mistakenly said they were the 400 series. After taking the time to look, they're actually T-830s. If you do find a set, give them a good listen. I did side-by-side comparisons with four other speaker types, one of which was priced in the "if you have to ask" range. The 830s have a quality that none of the others could reproduce. This is all relevant to my listening room. Other rooms may have a different result, of course.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 75 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 25-Jul-2003 12:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (Roj):
I have JBL TLX-181 Limited Edition (pair #12, btw ;-) as mainspeakers .. produced for JBL's 50 years anniversary. Anyone else happen to own a pair?
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 76 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 25-Jul-2003 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
"I dont get this part. "Restoring" mp3 back to audiotrack does not improve the quality.
Is the argument that your CD player is hooked to a better sound system?
Why not get a audio card with digital out, and hook it to the digital in on the amplifier?"

The argument is that the CD player is better at D->A conversion than the sound card. Obviously this depends on the particular player and card, but it is usually true.

A "digital in" on an amplifier (not something I've ever seen) is likely to connect to a cheap D->A converter, maybe no better than on the sound card.

The main thing to realise is that accurate D->A conversion is a tough engineering problem and cannot be done cheaply. The analog circuits following conversion are also difficult to get right because of the big dynamic range of a CD quality signal.

Sound quality is more critical if you listen to music that is recordings of acoustic instruments or voices than if you listen to music that is completely generated in the computer.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 77 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 25-Jul-2003 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (Anonymous):
"vinyl sounds smoother while digital can sound harsh at times."

CDs can sound horrible at times, but most of these are older discs dating from the 1980s or early 90s before the conversion circuits were much good.

LPs were also pretty bad for the first 10-15 years, until disc cutters improved. EMI LPs from around 1960 are harsh and screechy, and nowhere near the quality of the master tape.

The big problem with vinyl for me is that sooner or later there is always a click, and often lots of clicks. This is true no matter how much care you take of them, and I find the occasional clicks more destructive than the continuous noise of 78s, which you can tune out. If you look after a CD as though it was vinyl (no fingermarks or scratches alowed), you will never hear a click. That is worth a lot.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 78 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 25-Jul-2003 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (Roj):
"This is all relevant to my listening room. Other rooms may have a different result, of course."

I think the room is the most important part of any audio system.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 79 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 25-Jul-2003 14:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Don Cox):
Don, you are right. And often these "clicks" and other problems are considerered as plus, patina of age, something posivite. But lets face it, the people behind the records, be it producers, performers, composers, never intended it that way. They wanted their sound to be just like they made the record =)

I admit... sometimes I like to listen 10-20 years old tapes .. makes me feel good to remember the good old times ;-)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 80 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 26-Jul-2003 06:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 79 (hooligan/dcs):
"Don, you are right. And often these "clicks" and other problems are considerered as plus, patina of age, something positive."

Not by me. They wreck the music, IMO.
LPs do have one advantage - nice big sleeves with often great designs on them.


"But lets face it, the people behind the records, be it producers, performers, composers, never intended it that way. They wanted their sound to be just like they made the record =)"

The general comment from anyone who has heard the master tape and an LP made from it is that there is a big loss of quality. I think recent transfers from master tapes to CD lose less quality. With older transfers (often reissued unchanged on cheap labels) you sometimes have to balance more distortion than on vinyl against no clicks.

If the original recording was made digitally, there is no point at all in converting it to vinyl. But many rock records were made on analog tape even quite recently.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 81 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 26-Jul-2003 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Don Cox):
> A "digital in" on an amplifier (not something I've ever seen) is likely
> to connect to a cheap D->A converter, maybe no better than on the sound card.

Huh... why this assumption?

The Pegasos has a digital sound out, and there are amplifiers out there which I doubt very much has cheap D/A converters, e.g. http://www.tactaudio.com

> The main thing to realise is that accurate D->A conversion is a tough
> engineering problem and cannot be done cheaply. The analog circuits
> following conversion are also difficult to get right because of the
> big dynamic range of a CD quality signal.

Yes, and you expect to find those in cheap CD-players and not in pricy amplifier systems with buildt in D/A converters?

> Sound quality is more critical if you listen to music that is recordings
> of acoustic instruments or voices than if you listen to music that
> is completely generated in the computer.

Sound quality of the kind we speak of should never really be critical when it comes to enjoying music, and I feel sorry for those who claim that is is :)

As for acoustic insutruments and voices.. I have yet to hear any sound system, no matter how expencive, replicate the experience of a live performance. And I bet the most avid Hi-Fi enthusiasts are frustrated when going to concerts - be it a rock/pop-type of concerts with all the PA-noise, or classic concerts with the ambient wush of bows against strings, players flipping over their notes, the random caugh here and there and so forth.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 82 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 26-Jul-2003 08:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
On second thought, I bet the peg only has a digital in, and not out.
Oh well.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 83 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 26-Jul-2003 08:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
"> The main thing to realise is that accurate D->A conversion is a tough
> engineering problem and cannot be done cheaply. The analog circuits
> following conversion are also difficult to get right because of the
> big dynamic range of a CD quality signal.

Yes, and you expect to find those in cheap CD-players and not in pricy amplifier systems with built in D/A converters?"

No, I only expect to find good D->A conversion circuits in medium to high price equipment. For example, in CD players costing around 900 UKP upward. Price obviously doesn't directly indicate quality, but there is a limit to what you can manufacture and sell for, for instance, 200 UKP including VAT.

As I said, I haven't seen an amp with built in conversion circuits, but to be done well it would have to sell for around 1500 UKP or more in UK shops.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 84 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Roj on 26-Jul-2003 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Don Cox):
"The big problem with vinyl for me is that sooner or later there is always a click, and often lots of clicks."

A high quality cartridge and careful handling and cleaning before playing will keep the pops and clicks to a minimum, or none at all. There's also a permanent treatment that can be applied to them which virtually eliminates dust buildup and removes the necessity for cleaning before each play. I've been listening to records for years and years. The only records I have that pop and click are the ones I purchased when I was a kid and didn't know they weren't just expensive frisbees.

I know dbx made a unit that would remove all but the absolute worst pops without affecting the audio quality. I couldn't tell you more about it though because I've never needed one.


"I think the room is the most important part of any audio system."

This is absolutely true. The absolute hardest part of room design is making it pleasing not only to the ears, but also the missus. =^)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 85 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 26-Jul-2003 08:57 GMT
Nice to see other audiophiles here.. I bet we can make wars beyond imagination when arguing about sound ;-)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 86 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 26-Jul-2003 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (hooligan/dcs):
LOL yeah my HD590's rock.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 87 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 26-Jul-2003 09:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (Anonymous):
Sennheiser fan myself ;-)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 88 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 26-Jul-2003 23:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (hooligan/dcs):
> I bet we can make wars beyond imagination when arguing about sound

Again ,I feel sorry for audiophiles, why dont you rather play it loud, get drunk and dance your asses off or something... at least that makes sense. :)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 89 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Roj on 27-Jul-2003 00:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
You know, you're right. I think I'll sell all my equipment, turn my listening room into a second garage and use the cash left over on a huge beach party! Everyone is invited! =^D
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 90 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2003 16:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Johan Rönnblom):
The dynamic range is fucked badly when you encode something with MP3.
It's a very loosy compression. The high freq range is also fucked,
there's noise. And that at all bitrates I tried with several encoders
and a lot of different equipment including high quality hardware mpeg
decoders. All claims I made have been confirmed by several audiophiles
in my area, one of which has equipment that cost several tens of
thousants of Euros and is a high end amplifier and speaker
designer himself.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 91 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2003 16:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Anonymous):
Exactly.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 92 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2003 16:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (hooligan/dcs):
Depends on the equipment. On high end equipment there's quite a
noticable difference with different audio cables. The most important
is the interconnect, cause it's at signal level, it must be properly
shielded for best results. There's also a big difference in the output
cables which is quite noticable, as they have different resistance.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 93 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2003 16:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (Roj):
True. The situation is a lot better with HDCD and DVD audio if you
have a player with very good DACs.
My current Equipment is:
Dantax Jacob Jensen design Bipolar (made in Denmark, NOT India,
there's QUITE a difference).
Jensen passive Subwoofer and a 23 year old Mitsubishi amplifier,
recently modified (added bigger capacitors). The whole setup produces
a very good quality sound experience but I need a higher end
amplifier. I'll probably get a Dantax I-500 (high current amplifier).
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 94 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2003 16:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
I want to listen to music the way that pleases me, ie with the best
quality I can get with the money I have. As I play guitar, I HATE it
when MP3s or bad sound systems ruin the overtones in (for example)
Judas Priest's Painkiller.
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 95 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2003 16:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (Don Cox):
I prefer buying a high quality CD-Player with a medium range DAC and
use a high end external one. Usually gets the job done better and
cheaper:-)
SongPlayer 1.60 for MorphOS wirth OggVorbis support : Comment 96 of 96ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 29-Jul-2003 08:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 90 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
That has actually nothing to do with the MP3 format itself, but rather with two things:

1. Most (all?) encoders will perform lowpass filtering on certain ranges by default because most people can't hear those (LAME let's you disable this with -k), and the bits otherwise wasted there can then be used elsewhere where they matter more .. but there are people who can hear these ranges, especially with good highend equipment, and they will find mp3s where such filtering has been performed rather dull and blass compared to the original...

2. Internally the audio in MP3s is stored as floating point, and since most digital audio equipment nowadays use 16bit integer (higher end stuff and DVD use 24bit (some even claim 32bit, but usually don't use the upper bits)) you lose accuracy when converting, which often results in clipping (which causes noise (typically in places where there's alot of activity, "noisy" music is most prone to this ;) )), however you can counteract this with a decent player that allows you to adjust the outputgain on the subbands directly, thus avoiding clipping, and improving output significantly.


- CISC
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