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[News] Strong Genesi presence at AmiwestANN.lu
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 17:41 GMT by Daniel Miller327 comments
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In the Genesi presentation on Sunday, Matt Sealey got up and did a passionate job explaining all the great things that are available and coming for MorphOS. The other Genesi speakers did an excellent team presentation that showed off the great benefits and many positive attributes of MorphOS on the Pegasos. My early reporting for Amiga-News.de related the story of Saturday's Genesi presentation, which went poorly due to technical problems unrelated to the abilities of MorphOS or the technical excellence of the Pegasos. The problems owed more to configuration and hard-drive settings, and the Genesi team stumbled a bit because of that. Conversely the OS4 presentation, done on a A4000 (OS4 has yet to be demonstrated on an Amiga One), went very well. In all cases those reports dealt only with Saturday. The Genesi presentation on Sunday went smashingly, and they showed a lot of teamwork and frankly they recovered completely from Saturday I wrote the Saturday's report as a journalist, not a MorphOS advocate. I don't like it being portrayed the way it has been on ANN in the post by anonymous AM. My article was not about the stupid OS4 vs. MorphOS war, it was about Amiwest on Saturday. The MorphOS presentation on Sunday kicked ass. I am sorry I wasn't able to report on it later Sunday, being on the road. It is a bit of an injustice that so called advocates are the ones who do a lot of the reporting, leaving Internet readers hostage to their prejudices. I tried to stay away from that in my reports. In the Genesi presentation on Sunday, Matt Sealey got up and did a passionate job explaining all the great things that are available and coming for MorphOS. The other Genesi speakers did an excellent team presentation that showed off the great benefits and many positive attributes of MorphOS on the Pegasos. Bill Buck spoke very well also. Genesi made a lot of friends on Saturday and Sunday, and showed that they 100% earned their place in the Amiga community, where they belong. They have an almost complete solution that is so far more advanced than OS4 that it is not even funny. The OS4 presenter did a great with the presentation but as far as the actual product there is absolutely no comparison. Maybe someday Hyperion and partners will produce something to compae with MorphOS and Pegasos but not yet, and this fact was clear to anyone who attended Amiwest. I wish ANN would adopt a policy of not letting anonymous posters leave news stories. The article as characterized by AM is an oversimplification and really is a distortion. Let's leave the MorphOS-OS4 war behind for once. At Amiwest we did.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 151 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (samface):
"An interesting question would be; which way of communicating would be the most efficient one? I mean, are we hiding our true agenda behind our polite manners when meeting IRL, or is the rude forums too direct in order to make the debate constructive? I don't know, I just thought that it would make an interesting issue to discuss. =)"

The risk of politeness is that you go away thinking you have agreed when you haven't. This is the Japanese problem.

The risk of rudeness is that you just get a shouting match and all communication fails.

IMO politeness is less risky. It is possible to argue your viewpoint without describing the other person's character or intelligence.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 152 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (amorel):
> I heard that the morphos team rewrote stuff from aros to use in morphos,
> because the aros code was too bad and/or didn`t fit the purpose.

There were bugs, as every SW has, and those bugs were mainly due to not having tested AROS with existing 68k applications, I'd not really call that "too bad code". Some other code didn't fit their purposes just because it was not meant to be compatible with AmigaOS, not even at source level: this is the lowlevel filesystem which I'm talking about, which applications almost never care about. The rest of the code they used was in a good shape.

> Ofcourse said code was released back again.

As the license demands, nothing more nothing less.

> And in my opinion using oop in os development is rather bad.

Your opinion, not necessarily the correct one.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 153 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 30-Jul-2003 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 150 (Fabio Alemagna):
Surely, freezing the task and giving a warning requester suggesting a stack increase (with the option to do it?), would be the best solution.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 154 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 13:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (samface):
> why wouldn't it exist?

Just because the MOS' JIT compiler didn't exist before its official release.

Do you think that's a really bad way of judging whether a product exists or not? So do I, but then ask Ben Hermans to explain it to you.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 155 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 30-Jul-2003 13:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (samface):
>I mean, are we hiding our true agenda behind our polite manners when meeting
>IRL, or is the rude forums too direct in order to make the debate
>constructive?

That is, Sammy, an interesting question. It may certainly be that a certain amout of politically correct politeness guides our actions face-to-face, but I doubt it is only that... When communicating in written form, our emotions are lost in the communications process. Hence the use of emoticons, smileys, etc. but they are really not enough. Even phone conversations are subject to this, but not as much.

When we see each other face to face, not only are we a bit more polite often that leads to a more constructive atmosphere, we also get a direct response (and without any delay too) to our comments, including facial expressions, tone of voice etc. Added to this not all people (and nobody all the time anyway) know how to write in such a manner that they do not seem rude and too much to the point. We write so much these days that we often don't use old formalities much anymore, but they did have their place. "Dear Sir", "Yours Sincerely", "I would honorably beg to differ" are rarely seen in emails, but perhaps we could learn something from them.

Writing is so eash these days, it is like talking. We can quickly type in our toughts, just like talking! No troublesome stamping or manual mailing to do either. The problem is, while it is easy to write, it is no more easier to read than it was a hundred years ago. We still have the same misunderstandings, only now easier becaue we pay less attention to what we write.

I'm sure at the end of the day controversial figures in the Amiga community such as Bill Buck or Ben Hermans are misunderstood a lot by many of us - simply because we read what they write using our own emotions to fill in the gap of their text missing all emotion. Our emotions may mislead us badly.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 156 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 30-Jul-2003 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (amorel):
>And in my opinion using oop in os development is rather bad

The Amiga was the first sysem to use OO principles, then NeXT, also MacOS (classic and OS X), BeOS, KDE, Java / J2EE, Windows, .net.

OK, so they're not all OSs but given the entire industry uses OO these days why do you consider it a bad idea given it's many advantages.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 157 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Jul-2003 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (Fabio Alemagna):
> The rest of the code they used was in a good shape. Hmm... I hope they rewrite asl.library some day...
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 158 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 30-Jul-2003 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 99 (itix):
"I have 1.x here, something that can be compared to 1.3 or 1.2. If you are developer you could maybe ask CISC or Piru for BPPC/CSPPC version."

You could :-) But ofcourse it is understandable few will succeed.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 159 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jul-2003 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (Olegil):
You got the point :-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 160 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 30-Jul-2003 14:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Neko):
"I'll drink you under the table anytime, as long as Joe Torre is on my team :) "

And a belly peaking through to tell the tale, hah.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 161 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jul-2003 14:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (samface):
I can be very nice in person, extremely nice to be exact, but I'm not obliged to, so you'd better watch out:-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 162 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 30-Jul-2003 15:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Neko):
>@greenboy:
>I'll drink you under the table anytime, as long as Joe Torre is on my team :)

It's been a long time since I had an interest in that game. I had a more-than-respectable record when I retired from the competitions.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 163 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 15:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Anonymous):
> Hmm... I hope they rewrite asl.library some day...

you mean you hope they rewrite the AROS' asl.library? If so, why?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 164 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 30-Jul-2003 15:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (greenboy):
>It's been a long time since I had an interest in that game. I had a more-than-respectable record when I retired from the competitions.

I used to be a demon at a certain German drinking game we called "shock" (played with 3 dice, a cup and some beer mats). I highly recommend that no-one tries to challenger me to a few round of that unless they want to walk up with the hangover from hell. ;-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 165 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 30-Jul-2003 16:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Janne):
Problems do indeed arise from the communication limitations of Internet forums, but there's an important distinction between physical and Internet discussions that is being over-looked : in nearly all informal physical situations, one can choose whom one has to listen to, whereas on the 'net we have to put up with opposing opinions and perspectives interjecting themselves into discussions between like-minded people. This friction is an obvious source of irritation; remove the implicit restraints of physical confrontation, and you have a very simple explanation of why exchanges often over-heat, and we can't "all just get along" in internet forums.

You can see this effect in physical groups of a more formal nature, where one can't get away from others and discussions do get nasty - council meetings and parliaments are a prime example.

Personally, as might be apparent, I can tolerate and even enjoy difference, but what irritates the hell out of me is persistent, ignorant, unadulterated idiocy.

In my humble opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to insult people in these debates, as long as the insults are at least justified in the context of the discussion. For instance, samface is plainly an argumentative idiot with his ridiculous and pointless attempts to define "an Amiga user", and pointing this out is actually far more constructive than trying to treat the discussion seriously; however, it would be unconstructive and off-topic to call him a lily-livered, goat-fornicating, fish-fondling hippie, gratifying though that may be.

For myself, I do try to be polite and reasonable, and always check with myself "Would you say this to someone's face?" before posting. However, this does not mean that I suppress disagreement; if we all jumped on Darrin's hypocritical crusade, this forum would soon become tediously anodyne and lose any relevance; most participants would quit out of boredom.

In summary : No, we can't all just get along, and a good thing too.

Gregg
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 166 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 16:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (Gregg):
"Problems do indeed arise from the communication limitations of Internet forums, but there's an important distinction between physical and Internet discussions that is being over-looked : in nearly all informal physical situations, one can choose whom one has to listen to, whereas on the 'net we have to put up with opposing opinions and perspectives interjecting themselves into discussions between like-minded people. This friction is an obvious source of irritation; remove the implicit restraints of physical confrontation, and you have a very simple explanation of why exchanges often over-heat, and we can't "all just get along" in internet forums."

Good point, but IMO having to read other opinions is good for you (or at least good for me) in the long run. I can argue strongly against somebody's view, but then gradually come around to it, or to part of it, over a period of weeks. Or keep the same opinion.

A club where everyone agrees is not healthy.

But the point is that you can disagree without getting into personal insults, which after all are guaranteed _not_ to convince anyone you are right.

I've never seen anyone say "If you say I am a degenerate fool, you must be right and I bow to your superior intelligence."
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 167 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 30-Jul-2003 16:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 166 (Don Cox):
Thanks Don. I'm probably not getting my point about "insults" across too well; to put it another way :

Being rude to someone is just another way to reinforce an argument, and sometimes that can be constructive - have you never paused for thought when someone said "Now you're just being stupid." or similar? Certainly there are subtleties and nuances, and more often than not the recipient just takes umbrage and your argument is wasted, but I believe an insult in context is still a valid device.

On the other hand, telling Shawn the Bus-arch Troll that he's stupid is a service to the community and a cathartic expression of disrespect.

Gregg
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 168 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 30-Jul-2003 16:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 166 (Don Cox):
<brian> You are all individual human beings!
<the crowd> yes, we are all individual human beings.
<lone man> I'm not!
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 169 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 30-Jul-2003 16:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Nate Downes):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<brian> You are all individual human beings!
<the crowd> yes, we are all individual human beings.
<lone man> I'm not!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<Brian> "You don't need to follow anyone!"
<Crowd> "Yes, We don't need to follow anyone."
<Brian> "Now push off."
<Croud> "How should we push off?"

HAhaha, my fave film :-D
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 170 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 30-Jul-2003 17:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Neko):
Matt:

>@Ben/James:

>More Sapporo next time :)

Sure thing!

We did a good job of cleaning out the beer-filled tub.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 171 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Sir Lancelot Du Lac on 30-Jul-2003 17:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Gregg):
> Being rude to someone is just another way to reinforce an argument,
> and sometimes that can be constructive - have you never paused for
> thought when someone said "Now you're just being stupid." or similar?
> Certainly there are subtleties and nuances, and more often than not
> the recipient just takes umbrage and your argument is wasted, but I>
> believe an insult in context is still a valid device.

I have to disagree with you, being rude is simply that, being rude. It has nothing to do with reinforcing agruments what-so-ever. In fact, anytime anyone has been rude to me in a debate, I am usually less convinced of their side of the issue than before.

As for having someone say to me "Now you're just being stupid.", as you have mentioned before. Of course I have had it done to me, in fact, I would wager everyone out there has. However, that has NEVER ONCE helped the rude individual convince me of their side of the argument. In fact, it has more often than not, convince me the rude individual was not worth being around. I have stopped speaking to more people than I can remember because of this.

Most of the time, I have found, that if I have to resort to being rude to "reinforce my argument", the individual I'm debating is not going to listen to me either anyway, so I just stop debating and walk away. Sometimes, however, when the individual I'm debating with has been rude to me first, I do snap back and defend myself and am rude right back, but I am, after all, only human. ;o)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 172 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 30-Jul-2003 17:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (Gregg):
@ Gregg:

>For myself, I do try to be polite and reasonable, and always check with myself "Would you say this to someone's face?" before posting. However, this does not mean that I suppress disagreement; if we all jumped on Darrin's hypocritical crusade, this forum would soon become tediously anodyne and lose any relevance; most participants would quit out of boredom.

Please explain to me why this is a "hypocritical crusade". Please show me where I've demanded where we stop debating issues and just blindly agree with each other. Please do me the jutice of reading and understanding my posts before you start talking rot.

Regards.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 173 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 30-Jul-2003 19:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Fabio Alemagna):
If I'm not mistaken asl.library of MorphOS is based on AROS code. At least the asl.library provided with MOS is clumsy.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 174 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 30-Jul-2003 19:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (itix):
The asl.library provided with OS3.1 is clumsy, the asl.library that is provided
with OS3.5/3.9 is clumsy.. what's your point? :)

Neko
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 175 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 30-Jul-2003 21:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Darrin):
> Darrin :
> Please explain to me why this is a "hypocritical crusade".

Inside the very post (CEASEFIRE!!!) that announced this crusade, you said :

"all continued attacks by Alkis and these other individuals are part of a personal vendetta resulting from a lack of moral fiber."

Not a good start.

> Please show me where I've demanded where we stop debating issues and just
> blindly agree with each other.

I didn't say that; the fact that you construe my comments to mean that reflects poorly on your comprehension skills.

One major problem I do have with your crusade is that you equate criticism with attack, and propose that any "attack" (as you define it) be voluntarily self-censored in the interests of your personal concept of constructive debate in an aura of peace and harmony. The suppression of criticism will stifle most meaningful debate, and to what end - because it irritates you? Well, in that case, I feel compelled to start a "Shut Darrin Up" crusade...

I should be clear that I have some sympathy with what might be part of your justification for this crusade : to cut out the god-awful bitching, sniping and general nonsense of the less well-adjusted individuals around here. However, two major failings : pretty much by definition, those individuals aren't going to pay you any attention, so you're just insulting the intelligence of the rest of us. Secondly, your tallying of responses has itself been divisive and confrontational; you're echoing Bush's cretinous "If you're not with us, you're against us" stance, which only renders you even more irrelevant and irritating.

> Please do me the jutice of reading and
> understanding my posts before you start talking rot.

Quid pro quo.

Well, not really... I have no intention of getting into a debate with you about this, Darrin, as you will just be nasty to me again and I'll have to run away and hide in shame and fear.

Yours in querulous defiance,

Gregg
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 176 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 30-Jul-2003 22:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 170 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hey Ben, ya forgot to come by the booth to grab a pegasos.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 177 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 30-Jul-2003 22:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Peter Gordon):
No problem with a virtualized address space --- but it's still *an* address space, not many of them. And pointers into that address space are supposed to stay valid. So you *can't* move address space allocations around.What you *can* do, of course, is move around the memory that you map to those allocations. Which is great if you have considerably more address space than memory.However, from comments by the Friedens, it sounds as if the available 4GB address space is reduced to 2GB to allow for 68k<-->PPC switches. You also typically need to set aside about 1GB for PCI address space. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if the available address space for RAM is only 1GB. That's pretty much how much memory a lot of people have today, so the whole virtualization (while hopefully providing other benefits) would do very little for memory management.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 178 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 22:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (itix):
> If I'm not mistaken asl.library of MorphOS is based on AROS code. At least the
> asl.library provided with MOS is clumsy.

Please, elaborate "clumsy".
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 179 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 30-Jul-2003 22:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Bernie Meyer):
Oh, and we haven't even touched upon the ever-popular StackSwap function in exec --- a function you provide with a previously allocated memory block to hold your new stack.If you wanted to play funny MMU games, you'd have to somehow ensure that such a block does not share a page with any other, non-stack uses. But of course, when the block is allocated, you have no idea that it is going to be used for StackSwap --- meaning you'd have to force all allocations up to a multiple of the page size... which would be unbelievably wasteful. And strictly speaking, an app is perfectly in its rights to allocate a block of size x, and use a *part* of that block for StackSwap, keeping the rest for its own uses.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 180 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 30-Jul-2003 22:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Gregg):
@ Gregg:

>Inside the very post (CEASEFIRE!!!) that announced this crusade, you said :
>"all continued attacks by Alkis and these other individuals are part of a
>personal vendetta resulting from a lack of moral fiber."

Yeah, you're right and then if you read further on you'll see my apology printed clearly for your viewing pleasure.

>Not a good start.

Agreed. That's why I apologized.

>I didn't say that; the fact that you construe my comments to mean that
>reflects poorly on your comprehension skills.

Hmmm, let me quote you:

"However, this does not mean that I suppress disagreement; if we all jumped on Darrin's hypocritical crusade, this forum would soon become tediously anodyne and lose any relevance; most participants would quit out of boredom."

Please note your use of the first semi-colon (that's the comma with the dot above it). Please either learn to use it correctly, or understand that it appears that you are suggesting that my "hypocitical crusade" is based on suppressing disagreement. This is clearly not true.

>One major problem I do have with your crusade is that you equate criticism
>with attack, and propose that any "attack" (as you define it)

Bzzzt!!! Wrong again. I think it's painfully obvious that I equate mindless criticism based on rumour with no merit and dressed up in personal insults as an attack.

>be voluntarily self-censored in the interests of your personal concept of constructive debate in an aura of peace and harmony.

No, I suggest people are polite when they disagree. Just like we are (now). :-)

>The suppression of criticism will stifle most meaningful debate, and to what end - because it irritates you?

Yes it will and that's why I'm not asking for it. Have you deliberate misinterpreted what I have posted simply because you happen to dislike me?

>Well, in that case, I feel compelled to start a "Shut Darrin Up" crusade...

Please feel free if that turns you on. I think you'll find a couple of people to join you. I think Eva has signed up already.

>I should be clear that I have some sympathy with what might be part of your justification for this crusade : to cut out the god-awful bitching, sniping and general nonsense of the less well-adjusted individuals around here.

Thank you. That really is my honest intention.

>However, two major failings : pretty much by definition, those individuals aren't going to pay you any attention,

Agreed.

>so you're just insulting the intelligence of the rest of us.

That isn't my intention and I'll explain why in a moment.

>Secondly, your tallying of responses has itself been divisive and confrontational; you're echoing Bush's cretinous "If you're not with us, you're against us" stance, which only renders you even more irrelevant and irritating.

Sorry. That again isn't my intention and I feel that not EVERYONE finds me irrelevant and irritating judging by the personal emails I receieve thanking me for some of the things I post.

>Quid pro quo.

OK, I have, and I hope my answers convince you that my "crusade" is not as shallow as you believe.

>Well, not really... I have no intention of getting into a debate with you
>about this, Darrin, as you will just be nasty to me again and I'll have to run
>away and hide in shame and fear.

LOL - like last time? OK, I actually went back and looked at our exchange in a previous thread and I do feel was was rather harsh and sarcastic. However, you seemed to be holding your own against my razor sharp wit and it does make fairly interesting reading. Perhaps I'd have been a little kinder if you hadn't called me an idiot, however if I truely offended you then please accept my sincere (and I do mean this) apology.

>Yours in querulous defiance,

Yours in rapturous awe, ;-)

Darrin

PS. Back to my real intention. I always knew that a proper ceasefire would be impossible. What I was really interested in was to identify those who are willing to make more effort to debate in a reasonable and not insulting manner and to also identify those who are either self-confessed troublemakers or are simply unwilling to forgive and forget. If we can actually put names to these groups then when we encouter them withing a thread then we'll know whether it's worth having a long debate with them or whether it's just better to leave them be. I think it's actually worked to a certain extent so far and with luck it might allow some of us to communicate and debate with a bit more fun than frustration.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 181 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 30-Jul-2003 23:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Bernie Meyer):
No offense Bernie but why are you talking to yourself here?

One e-mail to Thomas Frieden could clear this right up.

Call me paranoid but I always find it suspicious that people would prefer to raise all kinds of issues on a ANN thread when they could get the real deal from the horse's mouth.

Instead of this speculation which is clearly based on incomplete information and behavior of the old 68K Exec which does not necessarily need to carry over to ExecSG.

Incidentally, I do believe that 2 GB is used for the PCI space and 2 GB is used for the virtual address space.

I don't know the answers you seem to want, other than that the stack extension mechanism has a upper limit built in so that one run away app doesn't end up allocating all of the memory.

Thomas knows what he is doing and with peer review from his brother, Olaf Barthel, Jörg Strohmayer etc. there is little chance of an unworkable mechanism making it into the system.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 182 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 31-Jul-2003 05:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Neko):
"The asl.library provided with OS3.1 is clumsy, the asl.library that is provided
with OS3.5/3.9 is clumsy.. what's your point? :)"

Do you really think so? I think it works very well. Enormously better than the Windows file requester.

Being able to show the files in date order (including in reverse) is very useful. Being able to rename an existing file before doing a save is very handy.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 183 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 31-Jul-2003 06:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
MDI?!?!?!

Why the hell would you want to repeat Microsoft's big mistake?!
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 184 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by o1i on 31-Jul-2003 06:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> Incidentally, I do believe that 2 GB is used for the PCI space and 2 GB
> is used for the virtual address space.

So Bernie was quite right?

2GB-> PCI
2GB-> maximal adress space for RAM

As OS4 seems to divide the adress space 50:50 for 68k and PPC native code,
you are left with a maximal adress space of 1GB for PPC and 1GB for 68k.

Of course you can have more RAM than adress space, but this is more a hack
than a solution.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 185 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 31-Jul-2003 06:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben Hermans/Hypocracy

Since you make a snide comment about JIT being integrated "just now and not since years as some people wanted to make us believe" what are we to make of your OS?

I mean MorphOS JIT has been publicly demonstrated since what, 2001?! I guess two years from now we won't be hearing any comments about AOS4 having such features as "a proper harddisk partitioning tool" since 2003.

After all public demonstrations don't count.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 186 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 31-Jul-2003 06:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (o1i):
> As OS4 seems to divide the adress space 50:50 for 68k and PPC native code,
you are left with a maximal adress space of 1GB for PPC and 1GB for 68k.

Where did you get that information from?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 187 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 31-Jul-2003 06:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 185 (strobe):
Another "No" there then Darrin.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 188 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 31-Jul-2003 06:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 182 (Don Cox):
> Being able to show the files in date order (including in reverse) is very
> useful. Being able to rename an existing file before doing a save is very
> handy.

I don't know which version of Windows you're basing your statement on, but the 2000 and XP installations I'm using allow all of that.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 189 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by o1i on 31-Jul-2003 07:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (DaveP):
> Where did you get that information from?

My mind ;)? Can't remember the URL, thought it was mentioned
by hyperion in a discussion about the advantages of their
PPC/68k model over the morphos model, but I can't find
it at the moment, sorry.

Closest I found is page 12 of
http://os.amiga.com/amiwest-2003/AmiWestPresentation.pdf

Although this assumes a dynamic splitting of PPC and 68k, so you
could have up to 2GB of (PPC or 68k) RAM.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 190 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 31-Jul-2003 07:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 189 (o1i):
Dynamic is IIRC how they have implemented it. An equal split algorithm would indeed be very wasteful.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 191 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 31-Jul-2003 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Bernie Meyer):
> However, from comments by the Friedens, it sounds as if the available 4GB
> address space is reduced to 2GB to allow for 68k<-->PPC switches. You also
> typically need to set aside about 1GB for PCI address space. Overall, I wouldn't
> be surprised if the available address space for RAM is only 1GB.

Not quite. The 68k<->PPC switches only require setting aside a single segment, which is 256 MB. The rest of the 4 GB is left as is.

On the classics that means subtracting about 512 MB of memory for PCI.

> so the whole virtualization (while hopefully providing other benefits) would
> do very little for memory management.

- Avoiding fragmentation
- Memory-Mapped Files
- Automatic stack enlargement
- ... (read the latest CAM article :-)

Virtualization isn't only about enlargin available memory.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 192 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 31-Jul-2003 08:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (DaveP):
> Where did you get that information from?

Where most people get their "information" from - making it up :-)

Matter of fact is that all is segment-based, meaning that a certain number of memory segments are set aside for executable (PowerPC) code, and the rest is "the rest" and unexecutable.

It is still facinating how much people make up, mostly based on assumptions and/or not knowing what the heck they are talking about.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 193 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 31-Jul-2003 08:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (o1i):
> 2GB-> PCI
> 2GB-> maximal adress space for RAM

So? The point of virtualization of memory is that you can actually get away from the hardware-induced memory map. In this case it means that you can fill the PCI-Address range from top to bottom and still use the free addresses in the PCI space as virtual pages. This means that you can actually have more than 2 GB of address space.

> As OS4 seems to divide the adress space 50:50 for 68k and PPC native code,
> you are left with a maximal adress space of 1GB for PPC and 1GB for 68k.

OS 4 does not divide the address space. PPC Code selection is done on segment basis, meaning that 256 MB is set aside for PPC code, which can be enlarged on the 256 MB granularity of need arises.

Instead of making things up, you're welcome to mail me directly if you have questions about that.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 194 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 31-Jul-2003 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
"It is still facinating how much people make up, mostly based on assumptions and/or not knowing what the heck they are talking about."

Hopefully once AOS 4 is released there will be full documentation such as updated RKM manuals, explaining how the OS works.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 195 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 31-Jul-2003 09:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (DaveP):
>Another "No" there then Darrin.

LOL. Well spotted Dave. I've made a note of Strobe's name and struck him off my Christmas card list ;-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 196 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 31-Jul-2003 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
@ HJF:

>It is still facinating how much people make up, mostly based on assumptions and/or not knowing what the heck they are talking about.

People are always going to speculate wildly and that can't be avoided and MorphOS get's the same treatment too from the critics. However, it would help if they clearly stated they were speculating in order to obtain the facts. It's great to see you posting here in order to clear these things up and it really does help to prevent 100 post long "guess work" threads appearing from nowhere. Hopefully people will take this oportunity to ask some relevant questions and that you and your brother can start posting here a lot more frequently.

Regards.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 197 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 31-Jul-2003 09:42 GMT
Defensive and on your toes as a true zealot MOS advocate... Too bad.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 198 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 31-Jul-2003 10:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Neko):
MagicASL is not clumsy =) If you look other systems (Windows, Linux, Mac) you find much better file requesters there.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 199 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 31-Jul-2003 10:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 178 (Fabio Alemagna):
Clumsy: Can't delete/rename files, complicated multiselect, looks awful. It should be rewritten to use MUI :)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 200 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by o1i on 31-Jul-2003 10:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 193 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
> So? The point of virtualization of memory is that you can actually get
> away from the hardware-induced memory map. In this case it means that
> you can fill the PCI-Address range from top to bottom and still use the
> free addresses in the PCI space as virtual pages. This means that you can
> actually have more than 2 GB of address space.

So the "Incidentally, I do believe that 2 GB is used for the PCI space and 2 GB
is used for the virtual address space." of comment 181 was just a believe ;)?

Hopefully these things get more clear, if the system is released and
publically documented (I hope, the internal documents already exist;)).

It was not so important for me that I wanted to write personal mails to
developers, I know, how annoying that can be.

On the other hand, it saves you some time, if you answer the question once
in a public forum and not 50 times per e-mail.
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