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[News] Strong Genesi presence at AmiwestANN.lu
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 17:41 GMT by Daniel Miller327 comments
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In the Genesi presentation on Sunday, Matt Sealey got up and did a passionate job explaining all the great things that are available and coming for MorphOS. The other Genesi speakers did an excellent team presentation that showed off the great benefits and many positive attributes of MorphOS on the Pegasos. My early reporting for Amiga-News.de related the story of Saturday's Genesi presentation, which went poorly due to technical problems unrelated to the abilities of MorphOS or the technical excellence of the Pegasos. The problems owed more to configuration and hard-drive settings, and the Genesi team stumbled a bit because of that. Conversely the OS4 presentation, done on a A4000 (OS4 has yet to be demonstrated on an Amiga One), went very well. In all cases those reports dealt only with Saturday. The Genesi presentation on Sunday went smashingly, and they showed a lot of teamwork and frankly they recovered completely from Saturday I wrote the Saturday's report as a journalist, not a MorphOS advocate. I don't like it being portrayed the way it has been on ANN in the post by anonymous AM. My article was not about the stupid OS4 vs. MorphOS war, it was about Amiwest on Saturday. The MorphOS presentation on Sunday kicked ass. I am sorry I wasn't able to report on it later Sunday, being on the road. It is a bit of an injustice that so called advocates are the ones who do a lot of the reporting, leaving Internet readers hostage to their prejudices. I tried to stay away from that in my reports. In the Genesi presentation on Sunday, Matt Sealey got up and did a passionate job explaining all the great things that are available and coming for MorphOS. The other Genesi speakers did an excellent team presentation that showed off the great benefits and many positive attributes of MorphOS on the Pegasos. Bill Buck spoke very well also. Genesi made a lot of friends on Saturday and Sunday, and showed that they 100% earned their place in the Amiga community, where they belong. They have an almost complete solution that is so far more advanced than OS4 that it is not even funny. The OS4 presenter did a great with the presentation but as far as the actual product there is absolutely no comparison. Maybe someday Hyperion and partners will produce something to compae with MorphOS and Pegasos but not yet, and this fact was clear to anyone who attended Amiwest. I wish ANN would adopt a policy of not letting anonymous posters leave news stories. The article as characterized by AM is an oversimplification and really is a distortion. Let's leave the MorphOS-OS4 war behind for once. At Amiwest we did.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 51 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 29-Jul-2003 22:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Eva):
Eva! Calm down!
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 52 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 29-Jul-2003 23:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Actually he does the GL implementation not the 3D drivers, the drivers are made
by other people.

(And to others, NO I did NOT want to Pi$$ anyone off... If I would I would have
better ways to do that.)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 53 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Jul-2003 23:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Fabio Alemagna):
>Then you don't want AROS: AROS' first goal is to be compatible with
AmigaOS3.1.

I have understood that. On the other hand, the arrival of MorphOS and AOS4 might be an occasion to prod AROS developers to change strategy :-) Three groups going down the same route is a bit crowded.

>As for the rest of your wishes, they don't conflict in any way with the AmigaOS compatibility, and some are already in the work, whilst some others just are, well, questionable.

In that case I have not clearly expressed myself. I would really want AROS to be cleaned up and the compatibility burden to be dropped in many areas.

unicode: 8 bit chars are a thing of the past, they just make no sense with people coming from so many different countries and expecting to use their alphabet everywhere, file names included. We have enough memory in every computer to use 16 bit unicode as the sole char type. Obviously, that decsion would kill compatibility right away: a lot of code is affected, in the every corner of the OS (user interface, file system, countless structures, compiler libraries etc). But it would not change the "feeling" of AmigaOS to programmers: it would be a nice clean cut. Obviously such a drastic change can only be taken when the OS is not yet widely used. If you don't do it now, you probably will never do it except in some form of kludge.

user interface: instead of having a countless number of gadget systems for historic reasons (intuition gadgets, gadtools gadgets, boopsi gadgets, MUI gadgets), the whole mess should be thrown out. I would like a system a bit like boopsi as foundation but detached from an Intuition task (instead, one user interface task per application?) and with the weired aspects of boopsi rooted out. The object model should include views/windows. On the higher level, MUI should be replaced with something a bit smarter: with MUI, it's difficult to write intuitive form designers with support for drag&drop because too much of resizing considerations is offloaded to the user, who's constantly forced to thing in terms of horizontal/vertical groups. It's perfectly possible to write an interface that does not need groups and still provides resizability, free positioning of elements etc.

It would also be useful to have one standard data format for gadget content rather than some using arrays, some lists, some strings. etc. Instead, object trees should cover everyting (think of how Windows registry is represented as tree): with string objects, number objects etc. linked in trees that can be attached to gadgets/dialogs. A uniform data format has one major advantage: undo, load, save, refresh and may other things can be implemented with generic functions. Highly efficient.

pen system: There is no reason to support CLUT display modes and yet, AmigaOS (ie graphics library) is thouroughly based on such obsolete display modes. The implementation of pens should be replaced with a useful variant: instead of an oridinal number, pens should be pointers to presets that define a rendering mode (for example, the programmer might want to allocate a pen "bright red, 50% transparency, JAM1"). Obviously such a change would equally break compatibility if cleanly implemented throughout the system.

new window types: frames are massively successful in virtually every OS. A clean way should be found to support them. Right now, that is a bit difficult with windows being the sole higher instance above gadgets (so that gadgets all run in the same context, possibly colliding with their IDs and with no clean focus rules (e.g. what gadget hears mousemoves).

My other points were secondary, I'll skip details.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 54 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 30-Jul-2003 00:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Anonymous):
Sounds like you're a MorphOS fan, as they've already addressed that
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 55 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 30-Jul-2003 02:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben, it was great to hang out with you, play What If, do some partying, and take a breather from what we guessed would probably be waiting when we got back. Next year I want a party where I can smoke, though - if I haven't quit by then ; }

Oh - and good thing the tub emptied finally - or Matt'd probably STILL be there ; }
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 56 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 04:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Darrin):
Well at least we have identified the people that deliberately stir for a flamewar. In the old days I would have leapt in and argued, now I don't. I wonder if its because these guys feel lost without a war?

Like generals of armies that suddenly have nothing to fight about and the politicians are spending all their time with business people? ;-)

Well we know what nicks to put on /ignore for the time being.

The topic:

Suffice to say I thought Daniels final report had a significant change, it was no longer thoughtfully edited, sounded a bit rushed like he was mending fences and it even contradicts (2) and to some extent (1). Shame because I was quite enjoying the reasonable tone that his previous (2) had in it.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 57 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 30-Jul-2003 05:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (greenboy):
Welcome back. Where's me'bundle? :)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 58 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 05:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Darrin):
> At least you admit that you're not arguing with him because you disagree with
> the facts, but rather because you hold a deep routed grudge against him and
> you're simply trying to get even. Well, that clear that up.

Put yourself in his shoes and tell me what would you do.

> Oh, and SOME adults do manage to make up and become friends again after having
> the most violent fights. Grown-ups can do that.

It would be nice if Ben Hermans admitted he was mistaken, then I'm sure things would be much easier for everyone.

> Well, at least in the UK they can...

Oh dear, take home your stupid nationalism...
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 59 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 05:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Anonymous):
> > Then you don't want AROS: AROS' first goal is to be compatible with
> > AmigaOS3.1.

> I have understood that. On the other hand, the arrival of MorphOS and AOS4
> might be an occasion to prod AROS developers to change strategy :-)

Perhaps you don't know that if MOS does what it does now, it's because of AROS: MOS use large parts of AROS code.

> Three groups going down the same route is a bit crowded.

Well, we were there first, so why should we leave now? We are the only _open_ group, we are the only ones which you can get the sources from, and we are the only ones with those kind of ideas that you also seem to have.


> > As for the rest of your wishes, they don't conflict in any way with the
> > AmigaOS compatibility, and some are already in the work, whilst some others
> > just are, well, questionable.

> In that case I have not clearly expressed myself. I would really want AROS to
> be cleaned up and the compatibility burden to be dropped in many areas.

Sorry, that's not a possibility, there's no much to discuss about it.


> unicode: 8 bit chars are a thing of the past, they just make no sense with
> people coming from so many different countries and expecting to use their
> alphabet everywhere, file names included. We have enough memory in every
> computer to use 16 bit unicode as the sole char type. Obviously, that decsion
> would kill compatibility right away: a lot of code is affected, in the every
> corner of the OS (user interface, file system, countless structures, compiler
> libraries etc).

Unicode support could probably be plugged in without compatibility problem, provided we use UTF-8, so I don't see the problem. We just don't support it now.


> user interface: instead of having a countless number of gadget systems for
> historic reasons (intuition gadgets, gadtools gadgets, boopsi gadgets, MUI
> gadgets), the whole mess should be thrown out. I would like a system a bit
> like boopsi as foundation but detached from an Intuition task
> (instead, one user interface task per application?) and with the
> weired aspects of boopsi rooted out.

Zune, the MUI replacement, has been chosen for GUI components, and of course boops and intuition will stay for compatibility. In the meantime there's a component model in the design stage, which will slowly pervade the whole system, from device drivers to GUI components, and everything will slowly be rewritten to be a wrapper around this component model, in a totally transparent way. In the process most of the current code will be reused.

> The object model should include views/windows. On the higher level, MUI should
> be replaced with something a bit smarter: with MUI, it's difficult to write
> intuitive form designers with support for drag&drop because too much of
> resizing considerations is offloaded to the user, who's constantly forced to
> thing in terms of horizontal/vertical groups. It's perfectly possible to write
> an interface that does not need groups and still provides resizability, free
> positioning of elements etc.

Nothing stops you to implement a group which implements that kind of layout policy, it doesn't seem too smart to have a group which implements ONLY that policy.


> It would also be useful to have one standard data format for gadget content
> rather than some using arrays, some lists, some strings. etc. Instead, object
> trees should cover everyting (think of how Windows registry is represented as
> tree): with string objects, number objects etc. linked in trees that can be
> attached to gadgets/dialogs. A uniform data format has one major advantage:
> undo, load, save, refresh and may other things can be implemented with generic
> functions. Highly efficient.

you need language support for that, or else you're going to get really bad performances. It's certainly possible to implement a "String" class in boopsi, I'd not really suggest it performance-wise, though. This is, however, something that we'll take care of with the new component model.

> pen system: There is no reason to support CLUT display modes and yet, AmigaOS
> (ie graphics library) is thouroughly based on such obsolete display modes. The
> implementation of pens should be replaced with a useful variant: instead of an
> oridinal number, pens should be pointers to presets that define a rendering
> mode (for example, the programmer might want to allocate a pen "bright red,
> 50% transparency, JAM1"). Obviously such a change would equally break
> compatibility if cleanly implemented throughout the system.

If it breaks compatibility, it can't be implemented. Sorry, but that's the rule number one.

> new window types: frames are massively successful in virtually every OS. A
> clean way should be found to support them. Right now, that is a bit difficult
> with windows being the sole higher instance above gadgets (so that gadgets all
> run in the same context, possibly colliding with their IDs and with no clean
> focus rules (e.g. what gadget hears mousemoves).

AROS has nested layers, and hence nested windows.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 60 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 30-Jul-2003 05:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Nate Downes):
>We had a pleasant breakfast and discussed cars, AInc, and our flights in.

I often wonder what we could do if instead of easily misunderstood written conversations all of this community would meet face to face, all the time. I'm sure many differences could and would be put aside.

I'd love to see Genesi and Hyperion working together in the future in some capacity, even if small.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 61 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 05:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Lando):
"> First you say that MorphOS is so far ahead of AOS 4 that "it's not even funny"

Which, of course, is factually correct. I don't understand how this simple statement can even be disputed?

OS4 in it's current form is still running on legacy hardware, at the speed of an 040/33, has 50% of the components still in 68k, has not been used by the public, was not allowed to be demonstrated for the viewers on the WebCam at Amiwest (the demo machine seemed to have been "packed up" in the ten minutes after the demo finished, and the one on the stand also was not in a condition to be demonstrated), will be stuck with the old icons system..."

I took the sentence to mean "so far ahead on features", not in time. In time, yes of course MorphOS was started a couple of years earlier, and is now in a state to be shown as a working OS, while AOS 4 is still work in progress.

That is boringly obvious and neither funny nor unfunny. Nobody is pretending OS 4 is ready for sale yet.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 62 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jul-2003 05:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (Janne):
I would smash someone's head first. Then, we would have A HELL of a great time.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 63 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 30-Jul-2003 05:53 GMT
When will MorphOS 1.4 ship for BPPC/CSPPC users?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 64 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 30-Jul-2003 05:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>MorphOS is ahead in certain areas and behind in others.

Ben, what I nice post. More of those, please!
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 65 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 30-Jul-2003 05:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Nicolas Sallin):
>You started all this mess. Now, please go away and never come back.

Nicolas... come on! Ben's was a nice and candid post. The sooner we can put the past behind us and start getting along, the better for all of us. I have nothing agaist Hyperion despite disagreements online, they are working very hard on an interesting product.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 66 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 05:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Matt Parsons):
"Just tell us what you want, and we can see. "

I want an OS that will run as many of the Amiga programs I own as possible, without having to have Windows or Linux on the box at all. I couldn't care less how many colours the icons have, but I would like to be able to run ImageMaster (for example) on fast hardware.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 67 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 30-Jul-2003 06:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Eva):
>> "PC" capable to run mediocrelly a linux PPC OS <<

LOL!

>> (because we must point out that also under linux the differences between Pegasos and AmigaOne are BIG with a G3 600: the pegasos is FASTER as swon also from the easy bogomips test. <<

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You better dig out some proof.

Here is the only attempt I know about A1 & peg1 benchmarking.
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/pekosbil/a1benchmarks.htm

(Pegasos has 100Mhz CPU bus and A1 has a 133Mhz bus. Correctly set A1 should therefore always be faster (and it's easy to overclock).)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 68 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 06:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"MorphOS has more modules PPC native, runs on chipset less hardware and has the JIT integrated since 1.4 (meaning: just now and not since years as some people wanted to make us believe).

OS 4 has a proper harddisk partitioning tool, an integrated TCP/IP stack, Mount Rainier and packet writing support, more powerful font handling to mention but a few items.

Both parties are obviously working on addressing the areas where they are behind but to go out there and spread disinformation about either product is unproductive."

What is so frustrating is that the two parties can't share the improvements. For example, is there any technical reason why Roadshow and Media Toolbocx can't run on MorphOS? Obviously there would be royalties to pay to the authors.

All this duplication of effort seems so pointless.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 69 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 06:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Johan Rönnblom):
"As for the other things you mention, there is of course no way to
verify whether the OS4 font handling really is more powerful than that
in MorphOS, or whether the partitioning tool really works better (I
can confirm that it LOOKS better, but..)."

I had to use the partitioning tool in Win2K recently. Now there is something you can really criticize. It is so far behind even the WB 3.0 HDToolbox that I was amazed. Buggy too (GUI corruption).
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 70 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 30-Jul-2003 06:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Don Cox):
"All this duplication of effort seems so pointless"

All Amigans are stupid morons anyway, ask any outsider. ;-)


But really. The point is that it's not too smart to invent the wheel two times (+AROS).
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 71 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (priest):
In the real world, competing companies compete. That is why.

It is probably all we can manage to get the users to stop winding each other
up and co-operate on a few application development initiatives - no more.

For example, I want to know more about the MorphOS assign and directory structure - is that there because of the old development mechanism ( on top of AmigaOS ) and is just a PATH addon or is the OS hardcoded to expect tools in C: to be 68k? Does it need [file].elf? etc.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 72 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 06:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (itix):
"Well, there was a sentence: "(meaning: just now and not since years as some people wanted to make us believe).". But since Ben Hermans is not coder nor knows what is happening behind scenes on MorphOS it is unimportant after all. This integration stuff has been corrected many times now should be enough for now."


It's an argument about time.

When is a module such as JIT "done"? When the author first gets it basically working? When a few testers start trying it out? When it is released for wider beta testing? When it is commercially on sale but still has a few bugs? When it is 100% bug free?

That whole process could extend over ten years.

I think Ben's comment was negative. There is progress. The thing now works. Who cares how long it has been under test?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 73 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jul-2003 06:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Nicolas Sallin):
"So, you meet somebody, kick him in the face, spread bullshit about
him to all his friends... and then some years later you want he
peacefuly talks with you and forget everything just because you
decided it ?"

Yes, that's how the world goes. Wars do end, people do have to let bygones be bygones. Revenge feuds are totally unproductive.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 74 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (priest):
> But really. The point is that it's not too smart to invent the wheel two times
> (+AROS).

I agree, that's why MOS uses AROS' parts (that is, no reinventing the wheel), and that's why I can't understand why AOS4 couldn't do the same (apart from a few things inherited from AOS3.x).
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 75 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (DaveP):
> For example, I want to know more about the MorphOS assign and directory
> structure - is that there because of the old development mechanism ( on top of
> AmigaOS ) and is just a PATH addon or is the OS hardcoded to expect tools in C:
> to be 68k? Does it need [file].elf? etc.

Eh? :)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 76 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Don Cox):
Too right. There are some in the UK that still resent German and Italian people over WW2. They still resent the French over the Norman invasion. The overwhelming majority forgive, if not forget.

I could point to several thousand unpleasant actions perpetrated by either side but at the end what does it do for anyone constantly repeating them and broadcasting them over the planet? Perpetuate hate and rage? Right ... but what else?

Life isn't some balance sheet of revenge by default - you have to make it so.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 77 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Fabio Alemagna):
Well this could be me getting confused by the review in TAM :-)

Do you have a copy or do I need to type it in?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 78 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 30-Jul-2003 06:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (itix):
what MorphOS are you running on that BPPC? till 0.4 - or do you have a 1.x
on there...and if so, where do you get it? My personal MorphOS usage
is still at 0.4 8-|

(though I have seen the 1.x series in action and know what it can do and
how it behaves etc)

alan
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 79 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Don Cox):
> Yes, that's how the world goes.

Really? We must live in different worlds, then, where people apologize for their mistakes and otherwise don't expect anything in return.

It's not something you can "forgive" for without the other party even acknowledging he was wrong, you know.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 80 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (DaveP):
> Too right. There are some in the UK that still resent German and Italian people
> over WW2. They still resent the French over the Norman invasion. The
> overwhelming majority forgive, if not forget.

Damn, what a fitting parallel, really! Not :)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 81 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 30-Jul-2003 06:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Darrin):
In Norway, adult men usually require large amounts of beer (or other alcoholic beverages we're not going to bring into the discussion here) to make up and become friends. But they usually manage to become QUITE good friends given enough of it. I suggest those two agree to meet somewhere over a pint or ten and let us know the outcome.

Oh, and having a larger beta group (official Beta, MOS) doesn't mean you've released the product earlier than those who have a smaller beta group (closed beta, OS4). It means you've got more betatesters. I know some companies actually work like this, but I aim to only distribute new software whenever there's new FEATURES out. A strict line between beta and release is healthy, thus the MOS JIT was released with version 1.4, NOT before. It was _shown in public_ before this, but this is not the same as a release. If it was, we would never have heard anything about it in 1.4. See? :-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 82 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (DaveP):
> Well this could be me getting confused by the review in TAM :-)

I got your confusion, but most of all I haven't got at all what you meant there!

> Do you have a copy or do I need to type it in?

No copy here.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 83 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (Fabio Alemagna):
Well you can break analogies if you overuse them or overanalyse. The point is people have to know when to move on, when to let go. It has already been shown that this thing is practically a vendetta to a lot of people.

There are people, as I tried to explain, in the UK, who still carry some pointless anti-German and anti-French vendetta. The majority of us realise that once you go through the 5 emotions at the end you should move on.

Was that clearer?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 84 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (Fabio Alemagna):
OK

"The basic system of MOS god me somewhat puzzled initiall. When I used the CLI to do things like copy it would work fine, but when I looked into MorphOS:C/ most of the usual files were not present. I realised there was another MorphOS directory inside the top level, and inside that there was another set of directories ( eg: Morphos:Morphos/C/ ) These directories contain the PPC native version of files while the top level ones contain any 68k programs that have not yet been written for PPC"

Later on

"you may notice two copies of the same file, one with the prefix(sic) .elf on the end. This is the PPC executable and will be run ........"

So the first paragraph: is there are limitation that imposes this filesystem or is it merely convention? Second paragraph - does MorphOS require ppc executables to be postfixed .elf?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 85 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (DaveP):
> Well you can break analogies if you overuse them or overanalyse. The point is
> people have to know when to move on, when to let go. It has already been shown
> that this thing is practically a vendetta to a lot of people.

It doesn't take anything for Mr. Hermans to apologize for his mistake, so why doesn't he? You can't discredit someone and then expect him to treat you as a friend, as if nothing has ever happened.

> There are people, as I tried to explain, in the UK, who still carry some
> pointless anti-German and anti-French vendetta. The majority of us realise
> that once you go through the 5 emotions at the end you should move on.

Those sentiments are pointless for just a "couple" of other reasons, most important of all the fact that you carry vendetta against _dead_ people: it's totally stupid to carry vendetta against the descendant of those people, who have no faults but being descendant of those people.

Here we're talking about a totally different issue.

> Was that clearer?

It was also before, but the analogy still doesn't fit.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 86 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Jul-2003 06:41 GMT
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...

Even if you win, you're still retarded!

Think about it, some of you! We are getting quite tired of endless outburst
and personal insults based on what perhaps happened 2 years ago and nobody
really remembers the real thing, only that they disagreed.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 87 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 30-Jul-2003 06:41 GMT
" Oh, and SOME adults do manage to make up and become friends again after having the most violent fights. Grown-ups can do that. Well, at least in the UK they can..."

Darrin, it's like Bill Buck's offer to Ben Hermans visiting them and having a Pegasos. You (red camp) run up and down how concealed anomisity it was.

It's strange why every "mature post" has to contain a tiny bit of sour injustice towards the competition, just as the case with the current Ben Hermans post here.

OS4 developers had less to do (either because of the available sources or the simpler approach, you decide), while MorphOS developers had more time for something much harder (rewriting everything from scratch). Both have to face with problems, not to mention that all development takes time.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 88 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 30-Jul-2003 06:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (Fabio Alemagna):
When people start talking about chopping peoples heads off so they can have a good time, I don't think any parallell is too strong. Agreed?
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 89 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (DaveP):
> So the first paragraph: is there are limitation that imposes this filesystem or
> is it merely convention? Second paragraph - does MorphOS require ppc executables
> to be postfixed .elf?

Oh, well, I can't answer to that for sure (some MOS users/devs will have to answer to that), but what I can say, off the top of my knowledge, is that the directory layout is a mere convention, and that there's no need for .elf extensions.

Of course I might be totally wrong, but the easiest way to dispel any doubts is to

1) Move some files around, from SYS:C to whatever other directory and check whether they still work.

2) Remove the .elf extension and see whether the program still works.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 90 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Jul-2003 06:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Olegil):
> When people start talking about chopping peoples heads off so they can have a
> good time, I don't think any parallell is too strong. Agreed?

Nope. You can't take the words of one and build upon those your "conspiracy theory" (if you pass the me abuse of terminology).
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 91 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jul-2003 06:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (DaveP):
Nothing is enforced but it's prefered that you have only MorphOS system stuff
in the MOSSYS: path, so that you can easily (for example) overwrite that assign
with a newer version of the system or "resurrect" a "dead" setup.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 92 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (Fabio Alemagna):
>> Well you can break analogies if you overuse them or overanalyse. The point is
>> people have to know when to move on, when to let go. It has already been shown
>> that this thing is practically a vendetta to a lot of people.

>It doesn't take anything for Mr. Hermans to apologize for his mistake, so why >doesn't he? You can't discredit someone and then expect him to treat you as a >friend, as if nothing has ever happened.

Right, but to be fair this has been happening since before "Party On" in the opposite direction about Amiga Inc so again we can all point to cases. No one is asking anyone to treat someone as a friend, merely to tolerate each others presence. Look up "detente".

>> There are people, as I tried to explain, in the UK, who still carry some
>> pointless anti-German and anti-French vendetta. The majority of us realise
>> that once you go through the 5 emotions at the end you should move on.
>Those sentiments are pointless for just a "couple" of other reasons, most >important of all the fact that you carry vendetta against _dead_ people: it's >totally stupid to carry vendetta against the descendant of those people, who >have no faults but being descendant of those people.

Well yes, that is the now. But I am also talking about days and weeks and early years after the end of the war. Everyone probably knows at least one old timer that talks in vitriolic hate terms about "the enemy" and at least one other old timer that whilst will never forget what happenned will not let it get in the way of their understanding that both sides did bad things, used propaganda and we need to move on. I was fortunate enough to know my grandparents and on one side my great-grandparents all of whom are and were in the latter category.

>> Was that clearer?
> It was also before, but the analogy still doesn't fit.
Does it need to? Its merely an example we can all learn from I think.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 93 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 30-Jul-2003 06:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Thank you, I figured it was a convention from the days of 0.4s development method :-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 94 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 30-Jul-2003 07:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (Fabio Alemagna):
Benjamin Hermans doesn't apologize because he is actually *still*
repeating to his close "friends" how MorphOS is using stolen AmigaOS
source code and other pure lies.

That's purely unacceptable and must end now.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 95 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jul-2003 07:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (DaveP):
There are no such limitations, it's just that the system looks for .elf files
FIRST. You can have any file anywhere.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 96 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Jul-2003 07:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Olegil):
I didn't say that, I said smash a head and THEN have some fun :-)
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 97 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 30-Jul-2003 07:26 GMT
I found this post provocative and ironic really from the mp3 I have hears so far.

Now I listen to the Mp3 and say found the Genesis take, really bad, firstly they do not sound like they have prepared them self at all, stumbling along, they use most of the time taking about how important is to attract developers to the platform, they list up a great deal of new features in 1.3 version like JIT etc, better desktop system up to date with Workbench and they added some extra features (png icons etc), optimized some library’s etc, try to indicate some Q/box features how every they do not clearly state any thing, when some one request a feature they almost every time say that some one else will do that, they will just provide the environment etc. they take about how they managed to port different platforms and an they don’t care about platforms as long as they are selling, they take about how Amitcp stack is include in version 1.4,

The Green Boy mp3 where a lot better, a totally agree whit him, about attracting developers etc. I think he is the one taking about setting up sites developer sites and he takes about the future making internet transparent to your local computer environment whit indicating what it is in reality, he talks about the possibility of attracting none Amiga/MorphOS users that where only interested in the otter platforms that suddenly find the MorphOS on the system,

On the red zone:

They indicated that half way done with recompiling or migration from 68k modules to PPC modules, they have integrated automatic stack enlargement an that they think that it prime reason for 90% all crashes on the Amiga platform, they take about how 68k program benefits form being able to access new or improved library functions, how the memory protection indirectly provides a safer environment event for 68k apps due to the task based emulation used, they take about a native MUI version and they improved gadtools with new class action GUI, take about the support for long file names, how roadshow TCP stack in included and about the benefits it has over AmiTCP due to DSL connection etc. they take about how easy it is to migrate 68k program to PPC with there development package, about being able to optimize parts or library per library basis, they talk about how gdb is built inn to the system.

They take about having tow versions of OS4.0, one developer version of OS4.0 with stricter memory protection as well as more tolerant version for average users.


On the downside the take about:

unfinished modules SMP, Multi trading and JIT,
moving / delaying icons, SMP, etc support in to OS3.1 or a booing bag ,

In respect to the news/forum item,
Yes MorphOS is more complete when it comes to apps, OS4.0 is more complete when it comes to it’s core, how ever it not complete when it comes to it’s none native modules are work that stile needs to be done.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 98 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 30-Jul-2003 07:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (Kjetil):
>Yes MorphOS is more complete when it comes to apps, OS4.0 is more complete
>when it comes to it’s core

Eh? When it comes to applications within the OS, I think it is completely the other way around. MorphOS' core has been maturing for years now and is quite complete AFAIK, but many utilities and applications within the OS are incomplete or missing. OS4 on the other hand seems to have a pretty mature set of applications and utilities included in the OS, but their core is still getting there, or at least has been until very recently...

If you mean by core the entire OS and by apps just third party applications sold and downloadable, of course MorphOS is more complete there having been out quite some time now. OS4 as an OS is somewhat more complete (except many important parts are still unfinished) due to its history and legacy code, true.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 99 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 30-Jul-2003 07:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (alan buxey):
> what MorphOS are you running on that BPPC? till 0.4 - or do you have a 1.x> on there...and if so, where do you get it? My personal MorphOS usage> is still at 0.4 8-| I have 1.x here, something that can be compared to 1.3 or 1.2. If you are developer you could maybe ask CISC or Piru for BPPC/CSPPC version.
Strong Genesi presence at Amiwest : Comment 100 of 327ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Jul-2003 07:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Eva):
Why would MS want to compare the Xbox 2 with the PS 2? The current Xbox kicks the pathetic PS 2 out of the water as it is. I think you'be been seeing comparisons with PS 3 and Xbox 2.
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