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[News] Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs"ANN.lu
Posted on 23-Aug-2003 13:55 GMT by Amon_Re290 comments
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We're testing a patch for the U-Boot / Linux Kernel which takes care of all USB related issues and IDE to IDE DMA transfers which now work 100% reliable.

(Thanks to Adam and Mai Labs for their efforts.)

This was accomplished by tinkering with the VIA 686B settings, nothing else, conclusively proving that the issues are related to that Southbridge and not to the Articia S.

All IRQ' are routed through the VIA 686B and most if not all issues appear to be related to unserviced interrupts.

Hopefully this will end all the FUD about these issue's once & for all. Read the original post here.

Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 101 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 20:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Anonymous):
Precisely my point anonymous, and this is what used to be blamed on the ArticiaS.

For your info, i do know quite well what the issue's are here, if you had read what i've said here & in the past you should've been aware of that.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 102 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 20:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Anonymous):
I think there are 2 issue's here, note that i am not awnsering in place of, or for Hyperion, these are my own opinions:

1: Money, there needs to be enough money to be obtained from that port
2: The licence

It's a businness call if you ask me

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 103 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 20:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Anonymous):
IIRC the Pegasos uses a different VIA chip

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 104 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 20:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 90 (amorel):
Please, people, stop it with these petty insults & attacks ok?

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 105 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 20:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (Neko):
Part of the argument here is not that Hyperion/Eyetech think that the ArticiaS needs a softwarefix, but rather the VIA chip.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 106 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Piru on 23-Aug-2003 20:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Darrin):
"I assume this so-called invoice is of similar quality to the "new Amiga Inc CEO business card"? ;-)"

Perhaps this scan has has enough resolution for your needs:
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/sintonen/pics/garry_hare_biz_card.png
(Contact information has been cencored to protect the innocent)

I'm no expert, but that looks quite genuine to me.

However, it's quite apparent this person never came to be (or no longer is) the CEO. I have no clue why he gave away these cards, either. So, don't ask.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 107 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 23-Aug-2003 21:15 GMT
Oh, so all bugs in the A1 are fixed.. again?

Really, according to Eyetech&Hyperion, there were no bugs before
either. Then someone posted some screenshots on ANN for how to
reproduce bugs. Then suddenly Hyperion were working on a fix..

Well, I would at least wait a couple of weeks after this fix is
released, so it can be tested by independent people, before I'd
believe the problems are really gone.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 108 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 21:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (Johan Rönnblom):
Read the rest of the thread on AW, some people are using it to great success.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 109 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 23-Aug-2003 21:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Are you here and now publicly claiming that no-one can't purchase
there glorious 20USD Mai chips without having to purchase entire
motherboard with those ridiculous Eyetech-prices? Well, must be kinda
stange policy from Mai if they really want to make Eyetech their sole
distributor.

Ray, (reply to #76) Trusting anyone blindly would be stupid.. You
included. :)
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 110 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-Aug-2003 21:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (JoannaK):
No one made that claim as far as i can see.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 111 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 23-Aug-2003 21:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Amon_Re):
@Amon_Re

Please stop acting like a moderator :) You are way too biased to do that.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 112 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by moood on 23-Aug-2003 22:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (Johan Rönnblom):
As I recall Eyetech and Hyperion claimed that there where no known bugs in the latest revision of the Artica S but there are bugs in the southbridge from Via. These new fixes takes care of these bugs. I don't think that Eyetech or Hyperion ever said that the AmigaOne is 100% free from bugs. I don't think that any harware is btw.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 113 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Aug-2003 22:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (Amon_Re):
>Precisely my point anonymous, and this is what used to be blamed on the ArticiaS.

IDE corruption? I don't recall that part`. As far as I can remember it was always just claimed that it fixes something but never clearly explained what it fixes. Does it fix DMA errors? Does it fix a hanging bus? Does it fix data corruption?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 114 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 01:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Neither bPlan nor Thendic/Genesi ever received a revised Articia S from Mai directly.>>This story is simply false. Are all people from Belgium so funny?Maybe it was a drunken MAI employee who provided Genesi with some 24 chips?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 115 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 01:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Don Cox):
>Most people are already extremely doubtful about buying non-standard motherboards. Pegasos is a standard microATX board with IEEE1275 standard firmware and standard connectors etc.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 116 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 02:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (DaveP):
>Ive heard rumours that Marvel are going to drop the northbridge that Pegasos is using The HULK-northbridge?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 117 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 02:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>I have no reason to doubt anything which Mai management tells me. Not yet you mean? :)
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 118 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 02:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Anonymous):
>Also Hyperion arent a charity and need to survive while genesi have no intention>of paying neither porting nor license costs. Do AInc or Eyetech pay porting or license cost for Hyperion?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 119 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 02:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Ray A. Akey):
>What on earth is the point of having the secondary IDE channel if you aren't>going to use it, or be able to use it? To push SCSI as prefered solution? :DRemember Macs only got USB2 support after they came with Firewire 800. P.S. I am fine with a combodrive and one HD, more won't fit very well and theymake the system more noisy and power consuming, too. :->
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 120 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 02:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 87 (Neko):
>and the solution to that - a new revision of the southbridge>which didn't require the hardware fix - was not provided Southbridge?Don't do a "Redhouse" on us, Neko! ;) >when they can wait 2 weeks Ah, the infamous "2 more weeks"...
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 121 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 02:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (JoannaK):
Wasn't it 40USD for Genesi?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 122 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 05:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (bbrv):
scum
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 123 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Aug-2003 05:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Anonymous):
> You should know quite well that Hyperion needs not only a machine but the
> hardware documentation aswell, which was never offered.

They can subscribe to the PegPort list, just like tens of other people from may OS teams have done, and get all the documentation they need.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 124 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Aug-2003 05:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (DaveP):
> Ben is talking about a fix for the VIA problem and nothing to do with ArticiaS
> in that respect.

Did it ever cross your mind that, since the Articia and the VIA chip are connected, fixing the former's problems might be done by tweaking with the latter's settings, plus some hardware fix (which the new AmigaONE _has_)?

Fabio Alemagna
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 125 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 07:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 102 (Amon_Re):
>Money, there needs to be enough money to be obtained from that port
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 126 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 102 (Amon_Re):
>Money, there needs to be enough money to be obtained from that port

Not necessarily: a motivation for a port could also be purely strategic. Keeping options open. Or to minimize the loss of future revenue by not cutting off developers with different PPC hardware from supporting OS4 (and thus reducing its appeal to end users). If a developer can run OS4 on the Pegasos, he will be able to release an OS4 version. If not, he won't. A few people with deep pockets excepted, most developers will choose either of them, not both.

> It's a businness call if you ask me

Certainly but it would be foolish to stare at short term profits only and ignore 600 developers and users on such grounds.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 127 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 24-Aug-2003 08:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (Anonymous):
">Most people are already extremely doubtful about buying non-standard motherboards.

Pegasos is a standard microATX board with IEEE1275 standard firmware and standard connectors etc."

For a normal customer a standard motherboard is one that is in stock in the local computer shops or the mail order dealers who advertise in the computer magazines. Not one that can only be obtained from obscure sources after a delay of weeks or months.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 128 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by The Sunday Poster on 24-Aug-2003 08:14 GMT
Strangely enough, since Thomas Knabel and BBRV posted, no more post from Mr.Hermans...

Would it be possible that Mai lied to Mr. Hermans ? As he's a LAWYER, maybe he'll sue their ass !!
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 129 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 08:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Emeric SH):
I am not acting like a moderator at all.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 130 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 08:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Anonymous):
All the things you raised can be linked to the problem with unserviced IRQ's, so yes, if that is the cause of those problems, then this solves it.

As has been said in this thread before.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 131 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 08:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Anonymous):
Macs came with fireware because fireware has been available *before* USB2.

So it seems logical to me that they'll have firewire before USB2 ;)

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 132 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 08:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Fabio Alemagna):
Are you suggesting that it might be some incompability between the 2?

Or am i reading your post wrong?

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 133 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 08:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (Anonymous):
Still, even if they were to do it, you still have the licence problem.

Ainc controls that part asfar as i know

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 134 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 24-Aug-2003 09:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Anonymous):
"Maybe it was a drunken MAI employee who provided Genesi with some 24 chips?"

Sounds more likely that it was a drunken Genesi employee, that _thought_ it was the new revision he received.

I mean, we have seen this thing with drunken Thendic/Genesi employees before haven't we ;-)
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 135 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by An Cr on 24-Aug-2003 09:12 GMT
Does this feel more reasonable (than all this prejudiced-hate-mistrust- assumption-based discussion fuck about "who betrays whom" and "who is the real arse in this story"):

Genesi believe almost everything they claimed and claim, and Eyetech/Hyperion
do so, too. Both have positive intention, so they give and give their best.
They have different people and resources, and neither of them tries to cheat on us.

How about that?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 136 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 09:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Troels Ersking):
We have seen at least Ben Hermans spreading such stuff. I still thank him for making me laugh that one time last year.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 137 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 10:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Don Cox):
So when Pegasos will be available via let's say Microwarehouse it's considereda standard board by you?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 138 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 10:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Amon_Re):
>Macs came with fireware because fireware has been available *before* USB2. We were talking Firewire 800 here.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 139 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 10:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (Amon_Re):
>Ainc controls that part asfar as i know For how long...
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 140 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Aug-2003 10:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Troels Ersking):
>Sounds more likely that it was a drunken Genesi employee, that _thought_ it was>the new revision he received. Troels, are you drunk? :)
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 141 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Aug-2003 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (Amon_Re):
> Are you suggesting that it might be some incompability between the 2?
>
> Or am i reading your post wrong?

Neko explained the issue very well: the first AmigaONE had the same HW problem as the Pegasos, due to the bugged Articia, these problems were fixed in two different ways for the Pegasos (April I) and the AmigaONE (flying wires), but both methods were thought by Carda.

However, that fix didn't fix _everything_, some other problems showed up and again 2 different solutions to the problem were used: April II for the Pegasos and SW kludges for the AmigaONE (which now includes the former patch directly on the MB). Genesi didn't chose to use the SW approach simply because the Pegasos is aimed at running as many OSs as possible, and it's not really affordable to ask every team, present and future, to work the bug around in SW.

That's all, there's really nothing new to see, no revelations at all.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 142 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 11:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (Anonymous):
Sorry, my mistake, but iirc Apple was involved with developing FireWire, so that might explain their preference for it.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 143 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 11:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Anonymous):
That's besides the point really.

At this time they control it, what happens in the future is an unknown

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 144 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Aug-2003 11:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (Fabio Alemagna):
Could you clarify what you mean with these other problems/issue's?

And why not just use a software fix that resides in the BIOS of the machine? It wouldn't have affected the OS developers at all, no?

Mind you, i'm not trying to bait you, and if you prefer not to discuss this further i will understand.

Cheers
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 145 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Aug-2003 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (Amon_Re):
> Could you clarify what you mean with these other problems/issue's?

DMA problems, mostly, related to interrupt handling.

> And why not just use a software fix that resides in the BIOS of the machine?
> It wouldn't have affected the OS developers at all, no?

Because the problem, if solved in SW, has to be handled at the drivers level, it's not just about setting some registers' values when turning the machine on.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 146 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 24-Aug-2003 11:42 GMT
We're not going to be considered "standard" until we run MS Windows
on an x86. Well, or until Microsoft is destroyed.

Personally, not being "standard" is something I've long accepted.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 147 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Pete on 24-Aug-2003 11:50 GMT
The VIA 686a or b bugs are fixed in Linux since beginning 2002. This fixes are included and working for every architecture that can use these southbridges, including PowerPC.

If there is still problems on AmigaONE systems and if you are to play with 686a or b settings to make the problems disappear, this ONLY means that there is a problem somewhere else that disturb the southbridge.

VIA 686a or b works perfectly well under Linux with standard drivers on 2.4.10+ kernels with all the known northbridges on the market, including PPC northbridges. There is obviously issues when it's used with the Articia S. Maybe you achieved to remove them by changing settings on the VIA southbridge, but this has nothing to do with bad working drivers or bad support in Linux.

This must be something else on the motherboard that disturb it. And the real fix for these problems would be to fix the real disturber instead of playing with VIA 686 settings to hide the problem.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 148 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 24-Aug-2003 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 136 (Anonymous):
Glad to have been of service ;).

Having said that, I'm still laughing because bPlan killed off a working hardware platform for which they had just provided two expensive hardware fixes which can apparently be sorted out in software.
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 149 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 24-Aug-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (Pete):
>The VIA 686a or b bugs are fixed in Linux since beginning 2002. This fixes are included >and working for every architecture that can use these southbridges, including PowerPC.

Interesting theory Pete.

Care to point me to a link of another PPC based motherboard that uses the VIA 686B?
Ben Hermans about the A1 "bugs" : Comment 150 of 290ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Aug-2003 11:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> Having said that, I'm still laughing because bPlan killed off a working hardware
> platform for which they had just provided two expensive hardware fixes which can
> apparently be sorted out in software.

Neko has provided you with all the explanations you need, how about starting to read and stop to laugh?
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