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[Files] See AmigaOS4 in actionANN.lu
Posted on 22-Sep-2003 10:42 GMT by Hagge269 comments
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frodon in #morphos on arcnet have made three movies of AmigaOS4. See details for more info. web page (requires CSS an a non-retarded browser)

or get those files:
GUI-Reactivity.MOV
Solid-Move.MOV
Solid-Resize.MOV
GUI-Reactivity.mp4
Solid-Move.mp4
Solid-Resize.mp4
We have experienced problems with the .MOVs in other movieplayers than Quicktime, so if you use mplayer or something else try the .mp4s.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 1 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 22-Sep-2003 08:51 GMT
Solid move are awful slow, but:
12:47 <sg2> graphics.lib & p96 are 68k and non-jit-emulated in the demo. Come back in a few days to test ppc-native version.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 2 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 08:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Hagge):
OK that's understandable. Solid move is damn slow with my 060+Voodoo3 too. And I think Non-JIT emulation can't be much faster or even slower than 060 ?
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 3 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 08:58 GMT
Thx for the movies Frodon, much appreciated ;)

Seems like the pieces are starting to fall together, once the JIT is implemented and gfx.lib & p96 'go PPC' things really will start smoking ;)

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 4 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 22-Sep-2003 08:58 GMT
Now I hope that Aos4 supporters (Mr Bouma???) can see how SLOW is Aos4 showed in Empoli.
Really it suxx actually. But if someone want to continue this ridicolous and blind support for the actual state of Aos4, feel free to contnue, but stop saying I'm a troll. The trolls are people like Mr Bouma that doesn't see nothing, doesn't know nothing and continue to repeat idiot things.

PS
Also Mos 0.8 on my Cyberstorm PPC has a faster video subsys (and we are talking about something RELEASED in 2001, not promised)!
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 5 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 08:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
I meant Non JIT emulation must be <= 060 not faster.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 6 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by tokai on 22-Sep-2003 09:00 GMT
With static emulation on a g4@993 MHz it should be fast like hell too, or? It really looked a bit slow.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 7 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 22-Sep-2003 09:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Amon_Re):
Yes Amon maybe in 2004, or 2005 who know
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 8 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Miky060 on 22-Sep-2003 09:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
My old versions of MorphOS without JIT emulator were still many times faster than a real 060! And I'm speaking about a G3@600 and not a G4@933Mhz like that one we all have seen at Pianeta Amiga in those AOne!
It's sad to confirm that TODAY Amiga OS4.0 is still in a real embrional state, really buggy, unstable and slooooooow. Let's hope for better things in the future.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 9 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 09:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Eva):
Eva, Did you even bother to read what hagge sayd ?

"12:47 <sg2> graphics.lib & p96 are 68k and non-jit-emulated in the demo. Come back in a few days to test ppc-native version. "

So OS4 graphics system is still m68k and emulated under NON-JIT emulation.
In that case, sure it's slow when it'äs emulated that way!!!

You are an idiot, I can't say it bettet :P
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 10 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Eva):
I just don't understand you Eva.... Are you sure you're not a badly written perl script?

I mean, so what if in the current state of AOS4 is slower then MOS, atleast they don't sell it in that state, they're working on it, and working hard.

Want to compare AOS with MOS? Do so when it's bloody well released. Atleast it didn't crash on the show, want me to give you a copy of my divx from last year that showed MOS getting the threefinger salute every 5 seconds? And that *was* being sold even. (Before any of you all start bursting some veins, what happened last year has no bearing on the quality of MOS, i haven't used 1.4, and i would assume those bugs would be replaced by new ones now, oh, wait, that's M$'s way of bugfixing;)

Go get a life Eva

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 11 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Eva):
You certainly wouldn't

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 12 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 09:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Miky060):
"My old versions of MorphOS without JIT emulator were still many times faster than a real 060! "

SURE, WITH JIT-EMULATION!!!! But as pople are trying to say OS4 was demonstrated with NON-JIT emulation. That's NOT same as JIT-emulation. And I was also talking about NON-JIT emultaion when I was talking about 060 !!!!!
Would you please learn how to read english.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 13 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (tokai):
Overhead from the emulation, overhead from debug output over serial (you should see that debug output, it's a nonstop stream of calls ;))

Give them some time to sort it out & they'll get there soon enough

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 14 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Miky060):
Buggy? Maybe, it's a WIP afterall, but unstable? Haven't heard much about crashes yet.

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 15 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 22-Sep-2003 09:16 GMT
Maybe it should be said it's AmigaOS4 running on the 933MHz G4.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 16 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 22-Sep-2003 09:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Eva):
P96 and graphics.library are the only major system components still in 68K.

This is our last major task prior to release of OS 4 as nearly all other system components already are converted to PPC.

If you think this will take until 2004 or 2005 to convert it, you are once again making a fool out of yourself Eva.

If I recall correctly, you (amongst others) also claimed such dates for the first boot into Workbench of OS 4 on the AmigaOne.

Also note that the AmigaOne demo of OS 4 was running without L2 cache support.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 17 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 22-Sep-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Amon_Re):
I agree but... It was *NOT* sold as it is NOT sold at all yet. You do not buy
MorphOS when you get a Pegasos, you get it for free, as soon as it's ready to
be sold, it will.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 18 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 22-Sep-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben please STAY SILENCE. You are the lat man that can open his mouth. Remenber what you promised!

"Aos4 will be out in 2 months" (november 2001)

And you have also the bronze face to talk.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 19 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Eva):
Eva, go away from the computer, look for a school, and take up a course in the English language.

Or if that's not possible, take some prozak

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 20 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 22-Sep-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Miky060):
@ Miky060

> My old versions of MorphOS without JIT emulator were still many times faster
> than a real 060!

That's very easy to explain. Although the old version of MOS was not yet JIT enabled, most of the OS itself runs PPC natively, including the graphics.

As already pointed out by Hagge "graphics.lib & p96 are 68k and non-jit-emulated in the demo". Interpreted code is much slower than JIT enabled emulation. You can test this yourself by turning on or off JIT emulation in the emulator (Win)UAE. However PPC native code, the state these parts will be in the finished version of AmigaOS4 is alot faster than JIT emulation.

I recommend reading my show report of the Swiss AOS4 on Tour event. Where I explained the following part of my article in more detail: "As can be expected with a near fully interpreted OS environment together with interpreted 68k applications, the general user experience was not fast and actually slower than running on the 060."

Anyway I am impressed with the usability of the AmigaOne version considering the couple of days it was running. And happy to hear Petunia is now integrated too! Good to see the naysayers proven wrong on both accounts. :)
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 21 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Eva):
No EVA, please stay silent yourself. You have revealed over the last 12 months that you
are a clueless troll. Have you ever listened to an irritating advertising jingle
in a continuous loop for 12 months? No? Well go back and read your posting back catalogue
it is comparably boring, tedious, useless and irritating.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 22 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Eva):
OS4 is not only project in the software industry which is delayed. It's normal in this industry, more so if you don't have huge amounts money. Plans can, and ususally do change many times before you have finished the product.

I don't think 1-2 years is much. I think it's nothing when compared to amount of work they have done. 2 years is nothing when you are developing OS. And always can happens something which change your plans. Always can happens omething which will make the project longer.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 23 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I know what you mean, but try getting that into Eva's scull ;)

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 24 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 22-Sep-2003 09:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Miky060):
@ Miky060

> My old versions of MorphOS without JIT emulator were still many times faster
> than a real 060!

That's very easy to explain. Although the old version of MOS was not yet JIT enabled, most of the OS itself runs PPC natively, including the graphics.

As already pointed out by Hagge "graphics.lib & p96 are 68k and non-jit-emulated in the demo". Interpreted code is much slower than JIT enabled emulation. You can test this yourself by turning on or off JIT emulation in the emulator (Win)UAE. However PPC native code, the state these parts will be in the finished version of AmigaOS4 is alot faster than JIT emulation.

I recommend reading my show report of the Swiss AOS4 on Tour event. Where I explained the following part of my article in more detail: "As can be expected with a near fully interpreted OS environment together with interpreted 68k applications, the general user experience was not fast and actually slower than running on the 060."

Anyway I am impressed with the usability of the AmigaOne version considering the couple of days it was running. And happy to hear Petunia is now integrated too! Good to see the naysayers proven wrong on both accounts. :)
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 25 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 22-Sep-2003 09:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
>> "My old versions of MorphOS without JIT"

> SURE, WITH JIT-EMULATION!!!! But as pople are trying to say OS4 was
> demonstrated with NON-JIT emulation.

blind hate leads you nowhere. Atleast OS4 is demoable. Good luck making sale version.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 26 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 09:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
Oh sorry it's me who can't read. You sayt whiout JIT. My mistake. But MOS 0.8 did have PPC native gfx-system, that's why it was faster. I'm 100% that if you would run m68k gfx-system under MOS and non-jit emulation, it would run wery slow too.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 27 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 22-Sep-2003 09:43 GMT
Hello,

@Amon_Re: You're welcome :)

General comment:

For having experience of NON-JIT emulation performances on iBook G3 500MHz and G3 800MHz as well as Celeron 466MHz with UAE standard without JIT, I found OS 4 a bit too slow for an OS running emulated on a G4 933MHz.

I guess that there is still a lot of debug stuff and so it add overheat and so reduce performances. So it's not really possible to make an objective idea of the performances of OS 4 with the current version. But speaking just about the current version i've seen, I found it really slow, in fact not usable comfortably in my point of view at this speed.

I hope that final version will be far more faster. Additionally it crashed a lot but as it's still alpha or beta I prefer not to judge the stability of OS 4 with current version.

From what I've discussed with people present there to show OS 4, I personnally don't except to see a fully stable and usable OS 4 for AmigaOne before 6 months to 1 year. But it's just my opinion. And I may be even a bit optimistic considering that it took Apple about 2 years to stabilize and finalize MacOS X counting from the Public Beta release to OS X 10.1 (which is the version I consider and the Mac world consider as the first real stable and final version of it), and considering that OS 4 is not in a state comparable to MacOS X public beta yet. But I may be also too pessimistic, time will tell... The future is an unknown thing after all :)

Btw I've to say that having seen OS 4 on AOne is already a big step and I congratulate the OS 4 Team for that. But I hope they won't lay down on this first big step and continue to work hard to stabilize and finalize OS 4 so that AmigaOne owners can finally have a decent OS :)

Regards
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 28 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by P4ndyX^ on 22-Sep-2003 09:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hi Ben Hermans

sorry for some italian idiot guys...... continue to work to OS4, I and many other AMiGA italian users will buy AOne/OS4 when ready...sure not MOS.

Good work Ben

P4ndyx^
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 29 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 22-Sep-2003 09:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Frodon):
in previous post:

-overheat +overload
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 30 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 09:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Frodon):
Having seen the debug output of the new exec in the past i can asure you that there's alot of it ;)

Once they get graphics.lib & p96 on the PPC things will be moving along fast, will AOS4 be on sale for the A1 this year? I don't know, i would hope so, but if not, well, i won't go crying neighter, i'm a patient guy :)

Thx for your feedback Frodon! ;)

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 31 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by o1i on 22-Sep-2003 09:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Frodon):
overhead ;)?
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 32 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 22-Sep-2003 09:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Frodon):
It took exactly 1.5 weeks to get OS 4 to run on the AmigaOne.

We initially started out with a PPC rewrite of graphics.library but when it became obvious we could not finish that in time for the show, we decided to take a different route in the 10 days available to us.

You might want to consider that when you make predictions about timeframes stretching well into 2004.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 33 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Sep-2003 09:54 GMT
It is dangerous to do public showing with raw products. (year ago MOS was crashy on demonstrations and now AOS4 seems stable(?) but slow on demonstrations)

But I personally think it's a good thing to show that something "already" works.

There's still some road left untill MOS & AOS reach the maturity level of classic 68k AOS.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 34 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Too slow on 22-Sep-2003 09:54 GMT
030 with RTG is faster than the current AmigaOS4 beta with G4 933 MHz.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 35 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 22-Sep-2003 09:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Frodon):
@ Frodon

> For having experience of NON-JIT emulation performances on iBook G3 500MHz
> and G3 800MHz as well as Celeron 466MHz with UAE standard without JIT, I
> found OS 4 a bit too slow for an OS running emulated on a G4 933MHz.

I couldn't disagree more.

I have AmigaOS3.9 running on a 1GHz Duron/512MB RAM running under WinXP. When disabling the JIT engine the OS is nearly unusable. This even with all the fancy stuff disabled, including background pictures. This demonstration looks alot more usable than a JIT disabled UAE environment running AmigaOS3.9

That you get better performances on a 466 MHz Celeron than me on a 1GHz Duron is quite remarkable. I know it has nothing to do with my PC setup as I have seen similar jerky performances on various other PCs while disabling the JIT engine.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 36 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 22-Sep-2003 09:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Frodon):
@ Frodon

> For having experience of NON-JIT emulation performances on iBook G3 500MHz
> and G3 800MHz as well as Celeron 466MHz with UAE standard without JIT, I
> found OS 4 a bit too slow for an OS running emulated on a G4 933MHz.

I couldn't disagree more.

I have AmigaOS3.9 running on a 1GHz Duron/512MB RAM running under WinXP. When disabling the JIT engine the OS is nearly unusable. This even with all the fancy stuff disabled, including background pictures. This demonstration looks alot more usable than a JIT disabled UAE environment running AmigaOS3.9

That you get better performances on a 466 MHz Celeron than me on a 1GHz Duron is quite remarkable. I know it has nothing to do with my PC setup as I have seen similar jerky performances on various other PCs while disabling the JIT engine.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 37 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Sep-2003 10:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Too slow):
That was our correspondant from Lalaland, we now return you to the regular trolling

Cheers
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 38 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 22-Sep-2003 10:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello Ben Hermans,

Great you ported on AOne in 1.5 week, doesn't surprise me so much considering you designed OS 4 to be portable and with an HAL.

I was just giving my opinion using what i've seen for MacOS X and other OSes. I also consider that Apple had lot more developpers and that Public Beta of OS X was more advanced than what i've seen of OS 4 this week end.

It took 2 years for Apple to stabilize and finalize OS X from Public Beta to 10.1. I consider that OS X is far more complex, that's why I said 6 months to 1 year. In fact I think more 1 year from now and 6 months from a similar OS X Public Beta like state of OS 4 when it'll be at this similar step.

But this is just my opinion. I always try to not be too optimistic as i've been disappointed by too optimistic prediction in the past. And even my current prediction is considering nothing unpredictable come and slow down the development. Again, the future is an unknown thing :)

But again it's just MY opinion, you're free to announce what you want and I'm free to think and say what I want.

Regards
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 39 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 22-Sep-2003 10:05 GMT
The Friedens themselves have said that the graphis.library from that show was hacked at the last minute to run on the AmigaONE. Apparently, it still contains some legacy code, and they implimented a "minimal" chipset emulation.

So, the entire graphics layer was running on top of a non-jit cpu core, and a last-minute bodge just so they would have something to show at this event.

People condemning OS4 for being crap should at least wait until the graphics subsystem has been properly updated.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 40 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 22-Sep-2003 10:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mike Bouma):
Hello Mr Bouma,

I don't think you can guess from what i've wrote that I get better performances on my Celeron 466MHz than on your Duron 1GHz.

I said I've better performances on UAE static emulation on Celeron 466MHz than what i've seen in Pianeta. The movies here just give an idea of what i've seen, but not enough to know how it performed generally speaking.

Yes UAE on Celeron 466MHz with static emulation is usable if it's configured well. I may have a bad memory of my A1200 040 25MHz with BVision, but graphically speaking (solid move/size with MCP and so on) I remembered it was faster than what i've seen of OS 4 at Pianeta. And my Celeron 466MHz with static emul was almost as fast as my A1200 040/25MHz even a bit faster.

Regards
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 41 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 22-Sep-2003 10:11 GMT
Would someone please provide the one or other mirror for these movies ? I'm on DSL but I'm getting only 200 bytes/second from hagge's link.

greetings,

- GALAXY -
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 42 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 22-Sep-2003 10:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Eva):
yawn. time and time again the information is ignored.

PS

MOS 0.8 in 2001?
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 43 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 22-Sep-2003 10:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Frodon):
But as I said, at Pianeta it was just a alpha or beta with i'm sure lot of debug activated. It's not possible to have a valid idea of the performances of OS 4 with that. For that we'll have to wait a non debug version of OS 4 and if possible PPC native version of GFX system.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 44 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 22-Sep-2003 10:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Too slow):
pity your statement is untrue. or do you have the wspeed figures to back up your lame claim?
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 45 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 10:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Frodon):
You can say much from the movies, because also someones hands look sluggish :) It seems that movie has also quite poor framerate or something :)
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 46 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 10:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
can should be can't
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 47 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Schober on 22-Sep-2003 10:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Hagge):
>Maybe it should be said it's AmigaOS4 running on the 933MHz G4.

Maybe I should add, that the G4 had debuglevel set to 10, while the G3/600 outperformed it with debuglevel set to 0. (serial line dump @ 115kBaud)

just to note

cheers
Jürgen
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 48 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Schober on 22-Sep-2003 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Too slow):
>030 with RTG is faster than the current AmigaOS4 beta with G4 933 MHz

Hardly. One thing one could do very quickly is patching workbench (or intuition) to do always do smart refresh. If you've a lot mem, that would speed up things significantly. Might be, this will follow. But I don't know how you would patch a ppc intuition.library ;)
Guess what. So, that's just a flag. Nothing to do with real performance, just the fact how you handle redraws...
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 49 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 22-Sep-2003 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Eva):
@Eva

Shut up troll. It's already been explained why the gfx updates in the demo are so slow. This doesn't mean AOS4 itself is slow, nor does it mean that the final release will perform this badly.

Gawd I hate idiots!

Why can't people just wait until AOS4 is finally released - whenever that will be - before they start making OBJECTIVE comparisons against MOS. Only then will we be able to tell if one is better than the other.
See AmigaOS4 in action : Comment 50 of 269ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 22-Sep-2003 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Peter Gordon):
Agree.. But the blame here goes to Hyperion. They should know better
than to demo so early prototypes on public. I do understand they have
dare need to prove they have actually been doing something. And they
have cause this is definitely more than they had a year ago.

But. For people who have dying or Dead Amigas... Sad fact is that
OS4/aone is not even near (months) from becoming suitable replacement
for their old computer. And to them, it's obviously a big
dissappointment to see this in real life after all those big talks
about it's readiness.
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