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[News] Another (not so) short report from Pianeta AmigaANN.lu
Posted on 22-Sep-2003 21:58 GMT by Andrea Maniero146 comments
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I was in Empoli yesterday, and I thought to do a report after I come home. If you're interested in it, you can... First impressions.
Well, the fact that we found a lot of place to park the car just in front of the usual event site in Empoli was something "disappointing", to start with. Probably this year's edition had the lowest number of attenders in 7 years. In 2002 there were more people than the year before, and I was hoping for the continuation of this trend. Dunno about Saturday, surely on Sunday it was disappointingly empty...

AmigaOne and AmigaOS4.
They were designed to be the kings of the show. Actually, the organization was focused on this two products, and everyone was really curious about them. The big new, which was confirmed just Friday night, was that we would have been able to see AmigaOS4 on an AmigaOne board! Really, you could feel the excitement and enthusiasm.
Well, AOS4 was shown on a G4@933MHz AmigaOne board at Soft3 stand. The Frieden bros were able to boot into WB just Wednesday, therefore you can understand the presence of the usual glitches that hit every young software. Overall the impression wasn't very positive, though: I'm not mentioning the bugs, I said I can live with them, I'm saying that it felt really sluggish, and we are talking about a 933MHz CPU. OK, graphics.library was still in 68k, as well as the gfx driver (the Prometheus driver was used). But I was told that JIT emulation was used... I couldn't believe it (because I've used it on various PCs, with UAE, which is emulating the Amiga original chipset in addition, and on similarly specced machines performance are at least one order of magnitude better), so I asked more than once to different people. Anyway, it seems that system routines still use the interpreted emulator, while only the voxel demo used Petunia JIT engine. But I gathered this information today, not at the show (so anyone reporting differently can't be blamed, yesterday I was under the same impression)! Anyway, a 040 with an RTG system and a gfx board (any gfx board) would have been faster, and so would have been UAE with a 500MHz CPU, even using interpreted emulation...
But I don't think you could expect much more from the A1 version, considering the hurry in which they prepared it in order not to miss the show. What really surprised me, in a negative way, was the classic PPC version. Even this one was really slow on moving and redrawing windows, or opening them (you could count the icons while they appeared)... and you couldn't do much more with it. There wasn't much software installed, and even many OS components (USB stack, AmigaInput) were present only under the form of an icon: a double click on it caused exactly nothing (and I red on some italian sites I was not the only one to experience this). I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying that when me and someone else tried them, well, nothing happened. In different moments of the show. I would have expected that at least the CS version was demoed with quite a lot of programs installed: I know WUP support isn't there yet, but I couldn't try 68k programs as well. After all we are told that Petunia has been integrated: why weren't we shown the compatibility?
The AmigaOne: well, there were half a dozen runnig Linux and MOL, in various configurations, but this isn't really what I'm looking for at an Amiga show, so I'll pass...

Pegasos and MorphOS.
Michele 'miky060' Magliocca and Elena Novaretti were showing off their Pegasoses, with the aid of Sebastian and Bertrand (AKA Frodon) who brought two additional machines from Paris. The two Genesi machines were normally configured, with MOS1.4 (someone was hinting about the fact that they might have had some newer files installed, though) and Ambient. And they were accessible to anyone to try. Michele had DOpus Magellan configured as "Work...", ehm, "Ambient Replacement", while Elena had her own mix with the original WB3.9 (guess she's the only one in the world) on show, and she was showing some High Quality prints of her fractals as well, as usual.
Those systems weren't fast: they were *damn* fast. They almost reacted before you clicked on something. I was impressed because I didn't think they could accelerate last year version this much. I sat down in front of a Genesi machine and played for 1:15'h with it. No crashes. Last year it would have rebooted every 5 minutes if you were lucky. Tried FxPaint Lite, FxScan Lite, Pagestream 4 68k (JIT is fast), VoyagerPPC, APDF, MPlayer (nice overlay support on the Radeons means realtime scaling without crippling performances), Kaya, one of the WinAmp clones (note: I didn't have to worry about the fact that the .exe was 68k, MOS, PUP or WOS at all - in fact I don't know what version I was using), MysticView with 1+MBytes .jpgs and more I don't remember... As for the entertaining side, I played a bit with the Knights and Merchants demo (I know I could pass the whole day with this, as I did in the past with The Settlers - really nice!) and Software Tycoon (when exiting I noted that the version I used - labeled PPC - was not the Pegasos one - labeled Pegasos, strangely enough - so I used the PUP or WOS one without noticing: so much for the transparency). MAME supported overlay as well, and ran very well. I tried Quake2. When I switched the resolution to 1024*768 a guy on my back said: "It's software only, it can't handle it!". Then, when I started the game, and I was playing it at something like 30 or more FPS apparently (no glitches, no slowdowns...), he turned his back and went from were he arrived (the AmigaOne stand...) with his tail between his legs: I'd be curious to know whom he was. Anyway, I was as impressed as him and the people on my back: SW renderer on a 600MHz machine? Astounting work, Bigfoot (I'm supposing it was his port)!
I had a brief chat with Frodon about the status of Radeon 3d acceleration status. Guess what? "When it's done!". I woder why I keep asking questions I already know the answer to. Nice chat and nice guy nevertheless. If I understood right, I gathered the information they are working on a driver to let accelerated programs run on unsupported gfx boards (a sort of wrapper). I might have understood it wrong, but it would be a nice idea. There was something I didn't like with them, oh yes: WipeOut 2097, two Mawi demos and a strange thing called glquakemos were all installed on these two machines: but a requester kept saying something on the lines of "No right Rave3D driver installed". Next time bring at least a VooDoo equipped machine! Altough it seems, reading ZioAok report, that at some point someone had the chance to see them. Unlucky me, then.

The "rest".
As usual, the biggest booth was the VirtualWorks one. They had quite a lot of hardware and software on sale as usual - and that CW Mk3 looks really tempting for my Pentium IV. Maybe one of these days... They had a lot of A1s on sale: really nice packaging! Sadly this year the stand seemed less crowded than in the past, people are in the now common "wait state".
There was Soft3 which was showing not only AOS4, but also a C-One board: nice piece of hardware, really sweet, something everyone agreed, for one time in this community. Jurgen Schober was there as well.
The Italian BeOS user group was present this year as well, and they attended the show in the past editions, too.
Other presences were Darkage (who were apparently giving away t-shirts and CDs: obviously I missed them!), Ikir Sector (an italian news site with forum), cip060 (an italian user who has always shown his own 'monster' A1200 at past PA editions), Morrigan Development (a Mac developer, with some background on Digital Photography, Video Authoring and so on...) and POP COMPUTERS (who had some old and not so old HW on sale - not necessarily all Amiga related). There was also the usual second hand market desk... but it wasn't as good as in the past, to say the least.
The italian printed magazine (subscription only) BitPlane was present as well. They were selling back jussues and the latest, the eight. I took mine there, so I won't have to wait for the magazine to appear in the postbox.

Conclusions.
It was sad to see the situation of the Amiga community this year. It's shrinking, probably, and there's a lot of hatred in this moment. Everyone seems to have made up his own mind: and it wasn't nice to see some people that didn't even give a try to MOS because "it can't be Amiga". But, honestly, although I haven't bought any of the new HW yet, I have seen what I like more. Actually I saw it at PA 2001, and it convinced me at PA 2002. I was there to change my mind, eventually, but I didn't see anything that could do. Actually, what I saw reinforced my beliefs.
So I won't give any conclusion myself. But I went to Empoli with my father and a friend. My father wasn't at PA since the 2000 edition, and lately he's been using only WinXP and WinUAE. He doesn't follow any Amiga related news site. But he was curious about AOS4. He came out quite convinced of buying a Pegasos instead... If it might mean something. The other friend, well, doesn't even have an Internet connection, so he knows nothing about the hatred community of today. But at the end of the day he was wondering why everyone is waiting for AOS4 on an HW that costs almost like two PegasosII... and why AOS4 can't run on a Pegasos when it'll be ready. And why waiting at all at the moment. It is possible that I influenced them. But unlikely, since I spent most of the time playing myself, not speaking with them...

Disclaimer: English is not my native language. So I beg you pardon in advance for any sintax/grammar error I might have made. Forgive me.
Disclaimer2: I expressed my opinions, I reported what I saw. It's as simple as that. I didn't want to be inflammatory at all.

Kind regards,
Andrea 'guruman' Maniero
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 1 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 22-Sep-2003 20:10 GMT
Nice. Thanks for your review.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 2 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 22-Sep-2003 20:57 GMT
A very interesting and well-written review, thanks!
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 3 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 22-Sep-2003 21:02 GMT
@ Andrea Maniero

> He doesn't follow any Amiga related news site. But he was curious about
> AOS4. He came out quite convinced of buying a Pegasos instead... If it might
> mean something.

It's always sad to see a potential Amiga user move to another platform. Especially considering the mis-understandings about what was actually shown...

Although why haven't you shown your friend your own Pegasos system yourself?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/morphos-ita/
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 4 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Sep-2003 21:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Mike Bouma):
Mike, you never cease to amaze me. Oh my...
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 5 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 22-Sep-2003 21:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Mike Bouma):
> It's always sad to see a potential Amiga user move to another platform.
> Especially considering the mis-understandings about what was actually shown...

Mike, what makes you believe that there's been a misunderstanding? Andrea seems to know perfectly well what's been shown and what not.

Besides, that "potential amiga user" is also a "potential pegasos user", would you have complained the same way, for objectivity's sake, if he chosed the amigaone instead?

Come on, Mike, be objective: what *should* someone who doesn't blindly follow any of the parties involved between one system which works, works well and works now, and one system which still doesn't even work as it was intented to and costs even almost as double as the other one?
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 6 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Maniero on 22-Sep-2003 21:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Mike Bouma):
OMG, Mike! You really reached the bottom, eh? Are you planning to start digging, just to reach the lower guts noone has reached before?
For your information, that ML was started by Claudio Marro Filosa, who hasn't got a Pegasos himself... but still is interested in MOS. OTOH he started the amigaos4i ML as well (on yahoo, too). According to your reasoning, he should have them both (Peg and A1), and still he hasn't got any of them... Still he is the moderator of those MLs, he adds the links and he posts there as well. And I post, too, because I'm quite interested in MOS. Funnily enough I just come back from reading the amigaos4i ML, because I tend to read about what I'm interested into...

Kind regards,
Andrea
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 7 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 22-Sep-2003 21:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Fabio Alemagna):
> what *should* someone

I missed a "chose" over there, sorry.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 8 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 22-Sep-2003 21:46 GMT
From what I've read, AmigaOS4 was running at Debug Level 10 (for what ever that is worth) over serial ... which would really really slow it down.

What was it like on Sunday?
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 9 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 22-Sep-2003 21:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Graham_nli):
From the report:

"Dunno about Saturday, surely on Sunday it was disappointingly empty..."

Andrea has been there on Sunday, has he himself says.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 10 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 22-Sep-2003 21:51 GMT
Also the L2 cache wasn't operational for the emulation.
It would be nice to get a clarification of the entire system configuration though.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 11 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Maniero on 22-Sep-2003 21:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Graham_nli):
Actually I was at the show on Sunday, when the A1 was better configured. On Saturday it was reported to run (sensibly) slower than the CSPPC. But these are things that are bound to hapen on the first public demonstration of any software.

Kind regards,
Andrea
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 12 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 22-Sep-2003 21:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Graham_nli):
> Also the L2 cache wasn't operational for the emulation.
> It would be nice to get a clarification of the entire system configuration
> though.

It would be better to just accept this was the first demonstration of a working in progress product, set up in a hurry I must add, and move on. Really, in my humble opinion there's nothing special to see here, either way (positive or negative, that is). Just accept (you people, I mean) that these are reports, don't get upset about the fact that what is reported, both by words and videos, are not great news, because those are the facts.

Now, speculating about the reasons of why it was slow is pointless, as the reasons have already been given: no L2 cache, debug on, and crappy gfx drivers and gfx subsystem in general. Let's wait for a demonstration of the product as it's intended to be sold to make any judgements.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 13 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 22-Sep-2003 22:34 GMT
thank you for that interesting report....I would like to attend an Amiga show someday, I almost attended Amiga-St.Louis a few years back, but I don't regret missing that show now.

But...it almost brought me there at Pianetta Amiga.

One thing I found surprising is you said there is much hatred in the Amiga community...I don't think so, just the usual bickering...but anyway, just in case there is, CMON PPL...I thought I had a talk with ya'll about this last year...now make nice nice.

OK, that should fix it.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 14 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by porneL on 23-Sep-2003 00:14 GMT
A1-OS4 was booted from the net. Many things seems to be hacked. Its really early stage.
Morphos was at this stage exactly two years ago! But still some people cant believe that it works and develops. Often past versions of morphos are compared to future versions of OS4.

Just LOOK objectively - Morphos WORKS FINE on new hardware while OS4 DOES NOT at the moment. Can anyone deny it? Im talking about the facts that we see at this very moment. Time goes by, people get older, systems get more mature :) Most likely someday OS4 will be finished and work fine on A1, but that won't stop MorphOS from working too. Moreover MorphOS is ahead and doesnt stop. It continues to develop and gets more mature with every release.

Currently there is no doubt wich system is more advanced. MOSteam did it first and has already accomplished this task while OS4 team still struggles. Its not that OS4 team is not good - In fact they are doing great job! Design of OS4 is abitious and I like it. They are just unlucky to be very late with that. IT market moves fast and that what was amazing year ago may not be amazing next year. And all glory goes to ones being first. First on the moon, first to boot amigaos compatible system on G3, and so on :)

Think what would be if MOS/PEG and OS4/A1 switched places. MorphOS would be official new AmigaOS and OS4 would be "clone". Would anyone be interested in it? Would Mike B. would still see conspiracy in every liking of MorphOS/Pegasos? I doubt.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 15 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 23-Sep-2003 04:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (porneL):
/* Morphos was at this stage exactly two years ago! */

The problem is that is tow sides of that coin,

For example MorphOS missing the install program so in way MorphOS looking up to AmigaOS3.1, there probably more bits missing, in way MorphOS is looking up AmigaOS3.9 for toolbar program, there are probably loads of other stuff missing, MorphOS looking implement taskbased emulation just like AmigaOS4.0.

I do agree with you that AmigaOS4.0 behind whit the important stuff, OpenGL, Graphic.libraray, speed optimized gfx drivers, firewire support for Amiga Lite, faster JIT, Ethernet drivers, USB drivers, Sound card drivers, I think the rest will go faster now that different once again can work on different components of AmigaOS4.0,

AmigaOS4.0 not released so we can only compare with feature list in mind, where is it heading and where is MorphOS heading, shore you can compare the current stage, butt once it complete it really won’t matter will it. :D
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 16 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 23-Sep-2003 05:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Kjetil):
MorphOS is not "missing" the installer program.

The simple fact is: it's freely downloadable from Aminet, if you want it. The
same can be said of the fat95 filesystem (required to use USB flash disks)

InstallerNG should be available later, but as it stands it's practically
nightmarish for bundling with an OS. It crashes a little too much. It fails on
a little too many useful scripts. GUI glitches galore. Jens knows about these
problems, and is fixing them as far as we know.

I seriously doubt that Hyperion will bundle it with their OS if they have the
choice, since they can ship the original Installer 43.3 (we can't) or Haage &
Partner's Installer 45.x with the gradients etc.

I wonder how that affects the feature list on their part :D

I'd say the fact that we didn't ship a buggy, incompatible clone with the OS
is QUALITY CONTROL on our part, and not a reason to slag us off.

=Neko=
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 17 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 05:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Andrea Maniero):
@ Andrea Maniero

> OMG, Mike! You really reached the bottom, eh?

Why aren't I allowed to ask a polite question?

> Are you planning to start digging, just to reach the lower guts noone has
> reached before?

I did not really have to dig though, I already heard of your name before. However just because you are a vivid MorphOS/Pegasos supporter, this fact IMO does not mean that you aren't allowed to state an opinion on a rival product. (Although some of the vocal MOS supporters would not agree, vice versa...)

However knowing you are a vivid MOS supporter the positive and negative opinions stated were not a surprise to me. However why would you want to hide the past? I am an Amiga enthusiast and I don't feel any shame when this is mentioned in public. :)
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 18 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Sep-2003 05:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (porneL):
I was at that show on Saturday, and I must say I totally agree with Andrea.

1) OS4 was damn slow, even on 68k/PPC machines.
2) even if it is just a beta preview, it still is years after MorphOS development.

MOS was impressive... fast, too fast even if compared to my Barton 2500 running WinUAE! And just a "little" G3 (600Mhz) was there...

What to say? I also think that many people are waiting for OS4 and are going to dislike MOS just because it is not "official".

At this point, from an user point of view, the best things that may happen are two:

- Amiga Inc. goes off businnes for the n-th time and Eyetech sign some agreement to melt OS4 development with MorphOS
- Amiga Inc. survives and enables Pegasos to run OS 4 (very unlikely in my opinion...).

Anyway, this is a sad situation, I must say.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 19 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Schober on 23-Sep-2003 06:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Kjetil):
>> Morphos was at this stage exactly two years ago! */
>
While this might be true ATM ...

>The problem is that is tow sides of that coin,
>
>For example MorphOS missing the install program so in way MorphOS looking up to
>...
>I do agree with you that AmigaOS4.0 behind whit the important stuff, OpenGL,
>Graphic.libraray, speed optimized gfx drivers, firewire support for Amiga Lite,
>faster JIT, Ethernet drivers, USB drivers, Sound card drivers, I think the rest
>will go faster now that different once again can work on different components
>of AmigaOS4.0,

...I am pretty sure, OS4 will catch up faster than you might think. graphics.library is already worked on. As soon as SNAP is integrated, the gfx bottlenecks should be gone. Also, they have Warp3D, OpenGL is available (Mesa), JIT is already there, SB Live! for AHI is available. Rest is not critical for a first release. Sure, I hope Ethernet & USB will be there from the start, but for a first run I would be happy if current drivers could run (see the Voodoo driver running on the AmigaOne). If there is a driver update within a Boing Bag or 4.1 I wouldn't mind. But if released it should be running as stable as possible.
Don't forget the more advance memory sub system (gives you a lot possibilty - e.g. "on demand chipmem" ?).
So, every side has pro and cons. MOS eventually has the "advantage" to have rewritten a lot from scratch. Makes some things more clean but took them much longer to get it stable. So, I guess OS4 can save time here but has maybe some other drawbacks with "old" code (that's a "maybe"...e.g. workbench).
So, I wouldn't see this as a 2 years ahead version...let's see, when OS4 gets more complete (I remember the day last year, when I got the first AmigaOne SE and no BIOS ! One year later we booted off OS4 on the same board. So, yes, I think this is a real achievment).
BTW: OS4 supports 2 platforms, MOS doesn't (officially).
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 20 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 06:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mike Bouma):
Bouma, take your group of dogs and go away from free forums.
We alredy have a CENSORED prtal like the one you manage. Your contribution is really a boomerang also for Hyperion and its developers.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 21 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 06:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Jürgen Schober):
"BTW: OS4 supports 2 platforms, MOS doesn't (officially)."
Wrong.
It support Officially 3 platform.
Peggy1, Peggy2 (that use a completly different MB) and Phase5 cards.

"OS4 will catch up faster than you might think" is a too optimistic and partial assumption.
We can argue that Mos will be develped during these months and, when Aos4 will become an usable product, we will have Mos 2.0 (if not 3.0).

"MOS eventually has the "advantage" to have rewritten a lot from scratch. Makes some things more clean but took them much longer to get it stable"
After 2 years of betatesting, fixing, retesting, refixing, now Mos is really a good product as all amigans looked in Empoli.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 22 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 23-Sep-2003 06:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Mike Bouma):
Well, almost exactly a year ago, I read things like this on the forums:

"We will not show our OS untill it's perfect. OK, 'the other' company puts their unfinished product on display on public trade shows and let people play with it, but it's incomplete and it crashes (hehe), and people are laughing at it. Who will buy and start using a joke like that? We won't make the same mistake. ->*There is only one chance to make a first impression!*<-"

... and look where we are today! Many people uses MorphOS on a daily basis and is very happy about that. Only last week Hyperion got some kind of code (incomplete, "with only Icons"?) running in some kind of way (seems like it's a grogg of different emulations) on the A1 hardware, and three days later they run to put whatever they got on public display! If it only had been in a state comparable to where MorphOS was one year ago (when all those mockery comments were made from different trolls (now members of the amigaworld.net community), of which you were one of the worst Mike B), but it seems to be very far from that. Someone said that OS4 is today in a state where MorphOS were two years ago, but I wonder if it's enough to go two years back?

"There is only one chance to make a first impression", yeah, like that ever was the reason to why they were not showing it!
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 23 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 06:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (takemehomegrandma):
@ takemehomegrandma

> of which you were one of the worst Mike B

I have always written pretty positively about MorphOS, even at a time when MOS crashed every couple of minutes. So please back up you wild statements with some links.

And AmigaWorld.net visitors behave pretty well, we have to alot less moderating than on other Amiga forums. :) MOS bashing is considered to be off topic and will
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 24 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 23-Sep-2003 06:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (takemehomegrandma):
> "There is only one chance to make a first impression"

I guess that will go in pair with "On schedule and rockin'" :-)
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 25 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 23-Sep-2003 07:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Jürgen Schober):
> ...I am pretty sure, OS4 will catch up faster than you might think.

I hope so. The time is running out. If they don't release an end-user product before christmas (and I don't think they will be able to do that) I believe they could aswell drop the whole thing. Sure, I am certain that *they will* release their OS some time in the future, but the question is, how many will still be around to buy it by then? How long will people wait in limbo, when there is a very powerful alternative solution available?

> MOS eventually has the "advantage" to have rewritten a lot from scratch.
> Makes some things more clean but took them much longer to get it stable. So,
> I guess OS4 can save time here but has maybe some other drawbacks with "old"
> code (that's a "maybe"...e.g. workbench).

I agree with you on this! IMO, in the short run it will be a benefit to start your work from old sources. It will give you a shorter time to market. But in the long run, sources written from scratch, for modern standards from the start, will be free from the burden of old code with it's legacies and limitations. So wilie it costs a lot more in both time and money to develop everything from scratch, it also means that the end result will be much meaner, leaner and cleaner than if you recycle some code from 1991 ...
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 26 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 07:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Fabio Alemagna):
The teams do what they believe is in the best interest of their market. If that means showing that AmigaOS4 really boots on the AmigaOne because certain trolls fill up forums with nonsense that this will not happen and that people are living in some kind of dreamworld. Then so be it.

Genesi/Thendic has suffered many delays themselves and could not fulfil many of its promises (i.e. Dual G4 boards, Smartboy PDA, AGA compatible chipset, etc). Luckily there don't seem to be Amiga supporting trolls who would reply to all MOS related articles stating these unfortunate facts over and over again. And I am happy about this as it would else make me feel ashamed for being part of the Amiga supporting community. But I also wish I could state something similar vice versa...
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 27 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Maniero on 23-Sep-2003 07:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mike Bouma):
>> OMG, Mike! You really reached the bottom, eh?
>
> Why aren't I allowed to ask a polite question?

Because asking why I didn't show off my friend my own Pegasos is hardly a polite question, when I don't own a Pegasos at all (and it is well known, since it's quite difficult for the 6 Peg users in Italy to "hide", due to the dimensions of the "market"). You hinting at this fact gives the impression that I'm a liar and wrote my report to fit an agenda: why would I have passed more than 1 hour playing with the Peg, if I had it at home? Why would I have been impressed by its speed? The whole third paragraph, and the last as well, would have been written in bad faith. I find it offensive. Since you stated the false (that I own a Pegasos), I'm waiting for your apologies.

>> Are you planning to start digging, just to reach the lower guts noone has
>> reached before?
>
> I did not really have to dig though, I already heard of your name before.

Linking to a public ML archive in italian (a language you obviously don't speak) seems you simply made a google search on my name. Anyway, mine was just a wordplay, you know "when you reach the bottom you can only start digging".

> However knowing you are a vivid MOS supporter the positive and negative
> opinions stated were not a surprise to me. However why would you want to hide
> the past? I am an Amiga enthusiast and I don't feel any shame when this is
> mentioned in public. :)

Did I hide anything? I said I was already convinced by MOS (to quote myself: "Actually I saw it at PA 2001 (Peg+MOS), and it convinced me at PA 2002."). I'm not pretending I'm not biased (as you did one year ago), I clearly stated I wouldn't give any personal conclusion. Did you read the last paragraph of my report? And anyway, those expressed were only my personal opinions. Nice to see that both here and on IRC they were the opinions of the majority of the attenders: hardly a sign of my intellectual dishonesty. I simply reported what I saw.

Kind regards,
Andrea
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 28 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 23-Sep-2003 07:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Mike Bouma):
> I have always written pretty positively about MorphOS, even at a time when
> MOS crashed every couple of minutes. So please back up you wild statements
> with some links.

It's not about writing "positive" or "negative" things (there are allways *both* positive and negative things to write), IMHO it's more about *the way* one does it, and why.

I am sorry, but I don't have the time to search through all the posts in the forums 0-1.5 years back in time. So OK, I apologize, and I slap myself on my fingers for making such "wild statements". However I am pretty sure that everyone knows that you are a neutral, unbiased, journalist and that my wild statements above did not damage your reputation in real life ...

> And AmigaWorld.net visitors behave pretty well, we have to alot less
> moderating than on other Amiga forums. :)

I am sure you do! :-)

I am sure that the sun allways shine, that the lions walk side by side with the sheep, and that everything is constructive and positive over at your own carefully guarded, copyrighted version of the reality!
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 29 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 23-Sep-2003 07:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Mike Bouma):
"I have always written pretty positively about MorphOS, even at a time when MOS crashed every couple of minutes. "

However, you keep saying "it's not an Amiga" over and over, which is the equivalent of constantly talking about "Teron" boards.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 30 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 23-Sep-2003 08:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Mike Bouma):
> Genesi/Thendic has suffered many delays themselves and could not fulfil many
> of its promises (i.e. Dual G4 boards, Smartboy PDA, AGA compatible chipset,
> etc).

Yes, that is all pretty well known (allthough I have never heard Genesi promise any AGA chipsets myself). The reason for these delays are also well known, but let's not go there again. The Pegasos II will be a new start, and the main reason for the very existence of the Pegasos II route is to replace a certain system controller with another.


But why don't we look forward instead of backward for a while? :-)
This is my vision of the situation at the end of Mars 2004:


The A1 lite is just released. It's price is about the same as the current A1 XE due to the relative low volumes(?) and the similar situation as for the A1 XE when it comes to the design/production chain, with several different actors (MAI designs, Eyetech license the design, it's manufactured by a third party, then it's sold by resellers, and they all wants a part of the stake). It's features are much better however. This will be the "base model" of the 2004 "Amigas".

A new "power model" is announced (with a MAI PPC 970 design?). The "power model" will probably be *a lot* more expensive than the A1 lite ...

The A1 XE is discontinued. It is replaced with the other two models.

OS4 is released or is being close to be released.



The "Pegasos II" has been sold for about 6 months, and the sales has reached quite large numbers (compared to the Pegasos I). It's price is about €299+VAT. It's a "base machine" where price is important, so it's features is in some ways lower than the just released A1 Lite, in other ways (as in performance) it's better.

The "Pegasos III" is just released or is about to be released. It's a lot more expensive than the Pegasos II, but cheaper than both Apple G5 and "A1 G5". It's features comes from a Science Fiction dream! ;-)

MorphOS is at version ... 1.7? Or perhaps something major has happened to it so it's considered to be a 2.x by then ...?

Let's see how it turns out! :-)
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 31 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 08:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Andrea Maniero):
@ Andrea Maniero

> when I don't own a Pegasos at all

Why not, if you are positive about the platform for such a long time? :-o

(Sorry another genuine question)

> You hinting at this fact gives the impression that I'm a liar and wrote my
> report to fit an agenda

I was only surprised about the part that you had a friend, who left his interests for AmigaOS4 in favour of MorphOS. I do believe that the guy had unrealistic expectations considering the short time AmigaOS4 was quickly ported onto the AmigaOne for this demonstration.

> Since you stated the false (that I own a Pegasos), I'm waiting for your
> apologies.

Jezus, you take this very seriously don't you? OK, sorry that I believed you would be such a "criminal" to own a Pegasos. ;) Instead of being a vivid Pegasos-less MOS/Peg supporter.

> ML archive in italian (a language you obviously don't speak)

Actually I know you from MorphOS-news.de

> I'm not pretending I'm not biased (as you did one year ago)

Links please. I have always stated that I hold an Amiga enthusiast bias. Now I would like to see an apology!!!!!! :-x (Just kidding of course)
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 32 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 08:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Don Cox):
@ Don Cox

> However, you keep saying "it's not an Amiga" over and over, which is the
> equivalent of constantly talking about "Teron" boards.

I would never do such a thing. (Like for example Genesi-employee Nate Downes is currently telling people within an Amiga specific article on Slashdot). That would IMO be pathetic.

However if someone would claim that the Pegasos is an Amiga, then everyone is free to point out to this person to the facts are different. The Amiga brandname and trademarks are not owned by Genesi.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 33 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 23-Sep-2003 08:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Mike Bouma):
You said it again.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 34 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by hairy on 23-Sep-2003 08:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Mike Bouma):
>> when I don't own a Pegasos at all
> Why not, if you are positive about the platform for such a long time? :-o
> (Sorry another genuine question)

Trying to slip thru the service entrance or what? ;-)

Why not having a pegasos and still being positive about it? Probably for the same reason AmigaOne enthusiasts are not running AOS4 yet?... because IT'S NOT AVAILABLE ATM!

But hopefully it will be soon. The same goes for AOS4.
My "genuine" congratulations to Hyperion team for this archievement.

Now I have to go, as a blue troll I'm trying to force some evil christian guy into losing his faith and become a good muslim muaha ha ha ha ha :D

Ciao
Alessandro
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 35 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 08:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Don Cox):
@ Don Cox

> You said it again.

You brought it up and I pointed to a fact. What's wrong with be factual?
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 36 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Sep-2003 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (hairy):
@ hairy

> Probably for the same reason AmigaOne enthusiasts are not running AOS4
> yet?... because IT'S NOT AVAILABLE ATM!

Actually the Pegasos and MorphOS has been available for the most part of this year. In fact dealers had trouble selling them even with the discounts.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 37 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
That was me...

Continued:

@ hairy

I expect Amiga enthusiasts to put their money where their mounth is when AmigaOS4 becomes available. Unless of course there are some very good reasons not to. (i.e. being broke)
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 38 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 23-Sep-2003 09:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (takemehomegrandma):
Takemehomegrandma said:

>> And AmigaWorld.net visitors behave pretty well, we have to alot less
>> moderating than on other Amiga forums. :)

> I am sure you do! :-)

> I am sure that the sun allways shine, that the lions walk side by side
> with the sheep, and that everything is constructive and positive over
> at your own carefully guarded, copyrighted version of the reality!

LOL!
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 39 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 23-Sep-2003 09:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
> In fact dealers had trouble selling them even with the discounts.

Another reason could be that everyone was shouting "what do you mean 'the Pegasos is available now', everyone knows that it's discontinued, the Pegasos is no more available as OS4" and stuff like that, despite the fact that some dealers did still have some in stock?
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 40 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by hairy on 23-Sep-2003 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Mike Bouma):
> Actually the Pegasos and MorphOS has been available for the most part of
> this year. In fact dealers had trouble selling them even with the discounts.

I don't think so. But I'm no dealer, you know... probably you have some infiltrated agent that reports you on sales? :)


> I expect Amiga enthusiasts to put their money where their mounth is when
> AmigaOS4 becomes available. Unless of course there are some very good
> reasons not to. (i.e. being broke)

You expect? Will they need to fill some form to prove they're broken???
What if meanwhile "their mouth" stumble in another viable solution?


> However if someone would claim that the Pegasos is an Amiga, then everyone
> is free to point out to this person to the facts are different. The Amiga
> brandname and trademarks are not owned by Genesi

Right. Sure also that "amiga" is a common spanish word that I found perfectly fitting my pegasos, you agree or not.
So while leaving the trademark name to the owner (I'm not really interested in that), I keep on calling "window" each one of my windows, regardeless of the brand and type.

Ciao
Alessandro
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 41 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Sep-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Andrea Maniero):
> OMG, Mike! You really reached the bottom, eh?

If that's Mike Bouma, then yes, he's obviously reached what he thinks is the bottom:
An open site.

You remember when he promised to not post on boards like ANN, where he can't control what's being said and make sure nobody deviates from the "official" Truth as fed to him by a-inc?

It was something about ANN being below his high standards or something like that. Maybe someone could find a link?

One would think he'd be satisfied with participating in the cultist ceremonies over at "The Amiga Community Portal". (Projectile vomiting imminent!) That's where the Truth is. Fleecy posts there, after all. The journalistic search for Truth goes on. Relentless and restless. Come read the biweekly output from the web economy bullshit generator! New acronyms for old stuff every fortnight! Everybody is friendly (it can't have anything to do with the banning of anyone who doesn't think the same as Bouma/Mikey_C/a-inc)! No discussion... oops... uh... flamewars and FUD allowed!
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 42 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 09:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Mike Bouma):
Ooo hear this guy. Now he makes the good boy after repeating for months FALSE and stupit idiot words about Mos and its developers.
Simply Mr bouma we can quote all your idea in "Mos , but it runs?"
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 43 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Mike Bouma):
>Why not, if you are positive about the platform for such a long time? :-o

Because after 4 years nothing is more than vapour?

> was only surprised about the part that you had a friend, who left his interests for AmigaOS4 in favour of MorphOS. I do believe that the guy had unrealistic expectations considering the short time AmigaOS4 was quickly ported onto the AmigaOne for this demonstration

Ah yes? And in how many time? Some amiga develops and Betatesters speack me abou 6-12 months to have the first release of Aos4 on AmgaOne. For that time Peggy2 and Mos 2 will be REALLY reality, Bouma.

>>> Since you stated the false (that I own a Pegasos), I'm waiting for your
>>> apologies.
>Jezus, you take this very seriously don't you? OK, sorry that I believed you >would be such a "criminal" to own a Pegasos. ;) Instead of being a vivid >egasos-less MOS/Peg supporter.

A part insulting italian users, are you able to use more convincig words to apply a CENSORSHIP on what we saw in Empoli?
Can you understand that we saw an incomplete, slow, buggy OS and a fast, stable and ALREADy commercial one? Or the medium Amiga user Mos is the dream man! Aos on PPC. Simply what we wanted during the last 4 years.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 44 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 23-Sep-2003 09:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (hairy):
@ Alessandro

> I don't think so. But I'm no dealer, you know... probably you have some
> infiltrated agent that reports you on sales? :)

Bill Buck once publicly claimed that the limited number of Peg boards were already sold. When mentioning this a while after this I got corrected by Nate Downes and also other Genesi employees claimed that these were still waiting to be sold at dealers.

Based on public information around 700 boards were produced. (Just as much as they had old revision Articia chips available to them)

> You expect?

Yes I expect that.

expect (THINK): "to think or believe something will happen, or someone will arrive"

> Right. Sure also that "amiga" is a common spanish word that I found
> perfectly fitting my pegasos, you agree or not.

Amiga does not own the brandname/tradename of "Amiga" in relation to people. But it does in relation to computers and operating systems.

> I keep on calling "window" each one of my windows, regardeless of the brand
> and type.

The "Windows" trademark is similar although a little more troublesome as the term is also used and common in relation to operating systems.

Just look up how trademark/brandname laws actually work.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 45 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 09:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Mike Bouma):
>I expect Amiga enthusiasts to put their money where their mounth is when AmigaOS4 becomes available. Unless of course there are some very good reasons not to. (i.e. being broke)

Oky Bouma so we have to pursuit only your credo, right? You are the only enlighted wise guy to see the future and calling all amigas "being broke" if they choosed or will choose MOS ...
You continue to be too self-conceited Bouma.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 46 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 09:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Anonymous):
The prob is that I heared that Mr Bouma homself is a pathetic guy who report to Hermann and Moss the disappointing ideas of a lot of Aos4 Betatester and developers.
I think that if he will continue on this road and Ben continues to hear only his voice, We will see soon some key Aos4 developers leaving their position.
I have to thanks Mr bouma for this :D
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 47 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Maniero on 23-Sep-2003 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Mike Bouma):
>> when I don't own a Pegasos at all
>
> Why not, if you are positive about the platform for such a long time? :-o

Because, among other things - like having time to put aside the required money -, I wanted to support the italian dealers. But no italian dealer ever had a Pegasos in stock, until now (which explains the low sales in Italy). So, if the situation won't change with the release of the Pegasos II, I'll get it from somewhere else.

>> Since you stated the false (that I own a Pegasos), I'm waiting for your
>> apologies.
>
> Jezus, you take this very seriously don't you? OK, sorry that I believed you
> would be such a "criminal" to own a Pegasos. ;) Instead of being a vivid
> Pegasos-less MOS/Peg supporter.

No, Mike. The point is that it was clear from my report that I didn't own a Pegasos, and you tried to twist facts to suit your tastes. Of course there's nothing criminal in owning a Pegasos. But I would have been dishonest, to say the least, to say that I was impressed by the speed of a machine I own. And even more so to report that a friend of mine was quite impressed, too, when you hinted to the fact that I should have shown mine to him, without having the need to go at more than 250km from home... This gives the impression that I completely made up that story.
I don't like you to hint at me as a liar. I confirm that I genuinely reported what I saw in Empoli, and expressed my opinions.

>> ML archive in italian (a language you obviously don't speak)
>
> Actually I know you from MorphOS-news.de

Fine. You might have known me from MorphZone as well. As you can see, I signed the report using also my nickname - something I usually don't do. That was because I didn't have ANYTHING to hide, countrary to your beliefs. And I somewhat knew that someone would have tried to bring out these simple facts. Only, I didn't think I would have deserved the intervention of Mike B. in person! Believe me, it's an honour! :)

>> I'm not pretending I'm not biased (as you did one year ago)
>
> Links please. I have always stated that I hold an Amiga enthusiast bias. Now
> I would like to see an apology!!!!!! :-x (Just kidding of course)

Well, at the beginning it seemed that you held a genuine Amiga bias (towards every Amiga-related product). As Don Cox and many others in the past have pointed out, it turned out that you had an AmigaInc bias, which I (and many others) think it's something different. I know you won't agree, and I respect your point of view, though.

That said, can we please return to the topic... I mean, if there's something wrong in it, or you don't share some of my POWs, let's just discuss them. But, please, don't try to hint at the fact that I would be intellectually dishonest anymore.

Kind regards,
Andrea
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 48 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Sep-2003 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Fabio Alemagna):
>Mike, what makes you believe that there's been a misunderstanding?
>Andrea seems to know perfectly well what's been shown and what not.

Andrea does but his friends don't. He said it himself that he didn't tell them anything about the system, therefore I really doubt they could make a well-informed comparison between the AmigaOne at the show and a Pegasos.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 49 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 23-Sep-2003 10:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Eva):
>I think that if he will continue on this road and Ben
>continues to hear only his voice, We will see soon some key
>Aos4 developers leaving their position.

I hope not, my dear Eva (aka caddozza ;-) )

OS4 will be Very Good Product, written by very good
developers. Its only problem (shared with mOS, anyway) is
that is developed in a marked without morality. In a place
where litte personal games and commercial interests force
people nonervously react how they often did.

So it happens that when you ask an Amiga Inc connected guy
(as Bouma is) to not offend people like he did in previous
posts and like he is doing right now in this thread, he
either a) censure you on his own portal (and there are a lot
of people who can confirm censorship con AmigaWorld.net) or
b) comes crying as a child to someeone asking to punish you
because he is connected to Amiga and no one even remotely
connected to the Amiga world can criticise him or his
official portal.

Shit happens, Eva. The shit in this case is that Amiga brand
is owned by people who thinks they must be untouchable. OS4
will be a good product but all the Amiga business plan is
based on fanatics. They are trying to sell old and very
expansive hardware to fanatics. They already sold them CAM,
which, as someone said here months ago, is like a teenager
boy band fans club, ie. a way to sell to fans something
"special" that should really be released to the public. In
this context you can't accept critics, and you endorse and
support any censorship to critics, where censorship means
flood criticism with offensive words by your friends (there
are many, not just Mike Bouma) or do other not so moral
actions to reduce them.

You see, this is Amiga market today. There are rOles and
there are people who can't do anything but obey to
rUles decided by others.

Honestly speaking, it's a matter of personal ideas. You can
live with the shit Amiga market is became, or you can tell
what you think., even ask a guy to stop, and get what you
deserve. Because Amiga market is this.

At least now I can say something I think from months but I
couldn't say: I'll NEVER buy anything from a company who
endorse behaviours like the ones of Mr. Bouma, Mr. A. Key
and friends of them.

You see, here in Italy I work for a portal dedicated to
children and kids (a site which does in a day the traffic
Amiga related sites do in an year, by the way). We have some
rules about the way one can speak in our forums or chat.
Well, those guys couldn't ever (if they where italian kids)
write in our forums, because they spend all their times
offending and flaming with people. I've been "punished"
because I asked to Mr. Bouma to stop and change his
behaviour which is damaging Amiga image. I'm glad of this,
because if this is the Amiga market, I really prefer other
ones.
Another (not so) short report from Pianeta Amiga : Comment 50 of 146ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Sep-2003 10:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Andrea Maniero):
Andrea don't bother. Bouma is one of the closest guy to Ben Hermanns. So He think that he can apply censorship on all words, posts, ideas, FREE MIND POSITIONS that can hurt Hyperion and AmigaInc job.
He is simply NOT trustable and a pathetic guy, maybe also more pathetic than me, because he is a megaloman convinced to be the shrine of the Truth.
But this will change soon when Mr Hermanns will discover how false and dangerous are his (and his entourage) nazi-style actions. And first of all dangerous for Hyperion marketing like "Halloween Documents" was for Microsoft ("To stop Linux we have to say simply 2 things 1) It doesn't run 2) Our Os is better also if it's not true")

PS
If you don't know the Halloween documents search on google. You will find dozens of article about them.
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