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[Web] Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty.ANN.lu
Posted on 24-Sep-2003 03:08 GMT by TRAPOSOFT120 comments
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www.amiga.org story by James H. Russell - AO Staff Writer/Editor
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 51 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Sep-2003 06:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (samface):
> I'd say it's neither until it has been proven to be true or false. But then,
> everything is relative, let's not start this again, please?

Sammy, THAT statement is *either* true or false. CAN it happen that, IF you ride a bike, you fall down and get hurt? Can it? If it CAN, then the statement it's true, if it CAN'T, then that statement is false.

Whoever rode a bike in his life knows that YES, that statement is TRUE.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 52 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Sep-2003 06:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (T_Bone):
@T_Bone

> > I'm sorry but in my mind, (snip)
>
> You're right, it's in your mind, oh, and apology accepted :D

T_Bone, that was samface writing. What mind?
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 53 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by not important on 24-Sep-2003 07:06 GMT
Please, for the sake of other readers, could you simply use private mail instead of messing around here with childish arguments? Do not feed the trolls. There's no chance to get a troll face reality.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 54 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Sep-2003 07:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (T_Bone):
The difference is wether the insolvency has been offically declared or wether they're just temporarily out of funds. The term insolvency can be used in both cases but the meaning is completely different. When Phase5 declared insolvency, it didn't mean that they were just temporarily out of funds, you know. Amiga Inc. is still nowhere near a liquidation process, yet this is the way many people will interpret this article.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 55 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 24-Sep-2003 07:24 GMT
@samface

Sorry, but I'm f****ng tired of your divertions. This will not make facts go away, rather will make ppl mad at you. The article was a nice and cautious summary, which even the outside world can read, accept and understand, and not a simple lousy ann post.

You have made I bet more posts to this thread alone than everyone else put together in order to make any discussion impossible and futile. Like children repeating LALALALALALA.

Will you please present the story as you see it, or as Amiga Inc see it instead? No, you will not. You're a shame of this community.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 56 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Sep-2003 07:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Emeric SH):
Here, have a mirror. You need it.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 57 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 24-Sep-2003 07:29 GMT
I think it's very nice to see an unbiased article for once, an article describing the Amiga Inc situation based on facts and not opinions and emotions. Really refreshing! Last time I read articles like that was in the Commodore era, or shortly after it, when all the big Amiga Magazines still existed.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 58 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 24-Sep-2003 07:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (samface):
@moderators:

Is there a way to ban him? Or warn him due to his pointless mass posting as you did with Eva?
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 59 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Sep-2003 07:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (takemehomegrandma):
How can an article be unbiased, factual and be based solely on the plaintiff's claims in a not yet settled court case at the same time?
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 60 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by krize on 24-Sep-2003 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (samface):
samface you have destroyed what could been a nice discussion about the future of amiga, instead you destroy it and make people very mad !!!! please dont come here anyome, you dont contribute to ANYTHING!!!!

If this had been a login forum, you would have been banned long time ago !!!!
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 61 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 08:07 GMT
This kind of article should not be posted on amiga.org whilst the site is associated with Genesi. Even if the article is un-biased, it will not be accepted by many.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 62 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by krize on 24-Sep-2003 08:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Anonymous):
please stop this, why wont it be accepted ?? why ????
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 63 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 24-Sep-2003 08:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (samface):
> The difference is wether the insolvency has been offically declared or wether
> they're just temporarily out of funds.

There's no LEGAL connotation to timeframe. You can either be solvent or insolvent. A belief about "temporary" status cannot be loaded into the word. Bill Mcewen testified Amiga Inc are "Insolvent"

Your arguement is akin to saying that being "Temporarily pregnant" means you're not "Officially pregnant"
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 64 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 24-Sep-2003 08:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (samface):
> How can an article be unbiased, factual and be based solely on the
> plaintiff's claims in a not yet settled court case at the same time?

Where in the article is it written that the court case is settled? Nowhere! But *there is* a court case, Amiga Inc *was* thrown out of their offices, and their material assets *were auctioned out* by force to cover at least a fraction of their million dollar debts. Nowhere in the article does the writer choose any particular "side", it's all factual and refreshingly unbiased, and that too is a fact!
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 65 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 08:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (krize):
Amiga inc. is in very bad shape, this I do not argue.

However, whilst amiga.org is associated with Genesi people will question the reasoning and timing of such articles.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 66 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by krize on 24-Sep-2003 08:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Anonymous):
maybe your paranopid mind will, but if read it there is NOTHING biased with it at all ...
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 67 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 08:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (krize):
Sorry, maybe I am not making myself clear - I am not saying the article is biased!

Whilst the association is there people will not give news articles from amiga.org the credibility they deserve.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 68 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 24-Sep-2003 08:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Anonymous):
> Amiga inc. is in very bad shape, this I do not argue.

And hopefully this will change.

> However, whilst amiga.org is associated with Genesi people will question the
> reasoning and timing of such articles.

The TIMING? This has been going on for years, in one form or another. When's the "right" time to bring it up? It seems quite reasonable to me that contemporary news is reported in a contemporary manner. What else would you suggest? When would be the right time?

As for where it's printed, what's wrong with Amiga.org? Amiga.org is about the only forum oriented site around that prints articles dealing with the whole Amiga spectrum. (I'd include ANN.LU in there, but CK has said that IHO this isn't a forum oriented site)

It seems (actually it's blindingly obvious actually) that no matter WHAT is reported, if it's critical of Amiga Inc (even if it's completely accurate and completely reasonable) then the issue is dismissed by many and only ancillary motives are discussed, rather than the content of the article itself. That's a shame really.

I've got nothing against those who hope Amiga succeed, I hope they succeed myself as well, but pretending nothing is wrong doesn't help things any, and I'm puzzled why some think this helps Amiga.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 69 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Sep-2003 08:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Anonymous):
> However, whilst amiga.org is associated with Genesi people will question
> the reasoning and timing of such articles.

Paranoia rules.

Of course this article _must_ be an attempt to undermine the "launch" of the A1 Lite. Everybody knows the world revolves around the AmigaOne, don't they? Genesi are terrified of it, it will save Amiga Inc from bankruptcy, and it is the future of desktop computing, if only people weren't too blind to see it.

The article couldn't possibly have anything to do with the announced launch of the Amiga.org Magazine, and it surely can't be an example of the factual and unvarnished reporting that will hopefully mark that magazine. Oh, no! What a ridiculous notion that would be.

This is surely an attempt by Genesi to deflect attention from the earth shattering product that is the AmigaOne Lite. Everyone knows that Amiga.org is owned by Genesi and that they turned down the generous offers from Amiga Inc. and Eyetech to sponsor them.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 70 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Sep-2003 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Emeric SH):
samface: ANN is not your personal chat window. While your posts don't violate any guidelines, it gets kinda tiresome walking into a 50-comment thread and seeing that half of the posts were made by you. It doesn't matter if you're right, or feel you're right... what matters is that you are responsible for maybe as much as 10% of the noise on ANN, because you will rehash, time after time, the same old arguments, with people who clearly have different opinions than you and who you cannot convince anyway. If you feel like pointing out every minute detail in a person's reasoning, please do so via email.

everyone else: While this was aimed at samface, it also applies to everyone else: please don't make ANN the home of any personal crusade against whatever you think is wrong. Often, it is fine to agree to disagree. Also, please don't fall into the trap of posting follow-ups to people who have the above-mentioned patterns, because all this creates is more noise for everyone else to endure, with no redeemung "news" quality whatsoever.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 71 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Christian Kemp):
Freedom of speech, not censorship.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 72 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (T_Bone):
> What else would you suggest? When would be the right time?

Fair point - I suppose this is as good time as any. But as I said before, whilst there is association between amiga.org and Genesi people will question the timing.

> As for where it's printed, what's wrong with Amiga.org?

I like amiga.org (I donated money in the past), but the association between amiga.org and Genesi creates doubt over the sites credibilty.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 73 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Sep-2003 08:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (T_Bone):
> I'd include ANN.LU in there, but CK has said that IHO this isn't a forum
> oriented site

While it's difficult to come up with a good definition, I think what I meant is that what I want to ANN to be is a place where news, rumours, announcements, etc. get posted and where people can discuss these. It should not be a place where people just come to "chat".

Ideally, I'd like to have people come to ANN every day for a few minutes, or an hour, and have them leave better-informed (in whatever way, be it knowledge or news) than when they first came here. A forum site, on the other hand, often just serves as entertainment and a means to kill time.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 74 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Sep-2003 09:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Anonymous):
I don't see any censorship issues here. Freedom of speech is guaranteed (or should be) by a government (and let's not get into a discussion about that), not by individual websites. If people don't agree with the freedom of speech offered to them by *free* services such as ANN, they should feel free to create their own websites or forums where they can do so with more liberty.

Free speech without any rules quickly turns into anarchy.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 75 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Sep-2003 09:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (Anonymous):
...and would you then agree that the association between Amiga Inc and AW.net, openly admitted and even advertised by its administration, removes credibility from anything posted there too.

After all, it's the same line of thinking, and the claims of pro-Genesi bias against Amiga.org are far more tenuous than those aimed at pro-Amiga Inc bias at AW.net.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 76 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Sep-2003 09:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Anonymous):
Stupid comment.

Christian is not commenting on samface's views, but on his behaviour. Free speech is one thing, antisocial behaviour something else entirely.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 77 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 09:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Bill Hoggett):
> ...and would you then agree that the association between Amiga Inc and AW.net.

Not sure on that one, I certanly don't think Amiga Inc funds (by free hosting) amigaworld.net so it is a bit different.

My point is that www.Amiga.org is probably the number 1 amiga site on the net, and in this position it should make itself seem as impartial as possible.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 78 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Sep-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Anonymous):
> Not sure on that one, I certanly don't think Amiga Inc funds
> (by free hosting) amigaworld.net so it is a bit different.

So, free hosting and sponsorship implies lost credibility despite the assurances of Amiga.org management that there is no editorial influence exerted, but openly admitted bias at Aw.net means that everything posted there is obviously true and objective. There's consistency for you.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 79 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 24-Sep-2003 09:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (samface):
"... summary of what's been trolling on ANN.lu ... Thank you Thendic/Genesi employees for supporting this article ... make sure everyone becomes aware of your side of the story ... I would like to add is that people consider the source ... an article that sums up every FUD mungoring fact [sic!] they can find ... I'm sorry [sic!] but in my mind [sic!], Amiga.org just officially [sic!] labeled themselves as anti- Amiga Inc. & Co conspiracists ... very unproffesional to spread the plaintiff's claims and theories ... your theories that this would put AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne in jeopardy ..."

This is nothing but AMAZING, Samface!

Did you actually read the article (as in reading all the words in succession from left to right, top to bottom, trying to understand what the letters and words mean when put together and interpreted by the cortical areas of the brain involved with language processing)? Did you read what frigging BILL McEWEN HIMSELF said in his deposition? Are you not aware of the FACTS (or "FUD" as you like to call it) which we all know about AInc having been evicted for not paying rent, sued for not paying rent, wages and taxes, etc?

Let's have a look at the article, and then let's hear from you exactly what's FUD, fictional and one-sided, shall we?

The headline: "Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty."

Well, OK that's not 100% correct. Amiga, Inc. *is* insolvent. In a court deposition, McEwen has recently confirmed what already was apparent.

But I doubt your complaints are about the article putting AInc in a better light. Do you think McEwen is spreading FUD by saying that AInc is insolvent? Are the Evil Genesi-bribed Bill McEwen, AInc's and Genesi's lawyers, the Washington court and Rich Woods all intent to lie about AInc by letting us know this? In court and the publicly available documents we have indeed heard "both sides of the story", yet you sit there and say that we still need to hear both sides of the story. Exactly what side is missing, and how would that make AInc solvent?

Of course the Amiga brand faces uncertainty. Or maybe you could inform everyone of us here what certainty it is that the Amiga brand faces? My personal fear is that it's likely that it'll continue like the last 3 years to face further devaluation, ridicule, and uncertain ownership, but I'm *uncertain* about all that.


The first paragraph: Nothing controversial there, the Amiga platform has switched owners over and over again, and none of them have delivered much more than failed promises.

"A brief history of Amiga Inc."
Can't see anything incorrect there, although I don't agree that the new company's plans were "clever" or "compelling", but I suspect that's not what you're objecting to.

I have a small objection to the second paragraph in this chapter; There never were any "hardware specifications" worth outsourcing to use as a basis for the design of new hardware. "Zico" was a sweeping general description of nothing more than, well, a computer of some kind. A joke.

The third paragraph is recapitulating how well everything seemed to be going the first two years. Again, is this part of the vast Genesi conspiracy to spread FUD or whatever? Are you asking for second opinion on how well things *really* were going? You vehemently object to those opinions.


We move to "Signs of trouble".

"[T]he company mysteriously disappeared from its offices in Snoqualmie ..."

Anything wrong with this text, Samface? Any FUD? You need a second opinion?

First it was denied, both by AInc and the Bouma damage control team, and rather amusingly so; They are really there, they just like to work in the dark and they're just not hungry for pizza right now... Their phone is disconnected because all calls they get are just war-dialling 3v1l h4x0rz and annoying customers, they don't need no steenkin' phones... The suit brought by the landlord for unpayed rent is... Uuh... LALALA-ICAN'THEARYOU-LALA...
Oh well, you should all remember how it went.

Then they had "moved the offices". The reason stated was to come closer to their business partners... The old address posted on amiga.com was "slightly incorrect" and was removed, and the new one would be there in the next couple of weeks. The auction was announced, but not to worry, that's just some furniture left behind in the move... Then came the auction item list.

...
It looks like this will be a long post, and while I was typing this there are probably a couple of hundred posts by yourself that shows how facts, words, logic and reasoning should REALLY be redefined and interpreted. So, I'll cut this point-by-point review of the article short. Both "sides" have been heard. Perhaps you could be so kind as to take the opportunity to point out the Genesi sponsored FUD yourself, and how it's not allowed to be met by counterclaims?

The only concrete criticism I see in your post was about "your theories that this would put AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne in jeopardy". I guess you failed to process the information delivered in this paragraph:

"One hope for a new Amiga computer [huh?] remains: Amiga Inc. signed agreements with Hyperion and Eyetech that theoretically ensure that they would be able to market and sell Amiga OS 4 and the AmigaONE no matter what happened to Amiga Inc. However, a bankruptcy by Amiga Inc. (should that drastic measure come about) has the potential to change this. In any case, the AmigaONE hardware is shipping now with Linux and a coupon for a free copy of Amiga OS 4 upon its release (Hyperion estimates that Amiga OS 4 for the AmigaONE will be released hopefully in early 2004)."

What's incorrect here? Short of a bankruptcy, AmigaOS should be "safe", according to Hyperion.
I believe a bankruptcy would void any such agreements or contracts (though the article only says this is a "potential" outcome, and you wouldn't want to only hear Hyperion's story, would you?) - then I suppose Hyperion would need to either OWN all IP; sources, the trademark, whatever that's currently owned by AInc and Gateway. Or license what they don't own from Gateway, just like AInc. In short, Hyperion would have to be "the new Amiga, Inc." But IANAL, and neither are you.

The Terons are of course completely unaffected by whatever could happen to AInc.

Where's the FUD? Or are you using the new amigaworld.net definition of FUD: things, events, actions, statements and facts reflecting negatively on the current "Amiga" trademark owners/licensors/licensees? So complain to McEwen and AInc - they did it, they said it.

"FUD mongering facts". I like that! :D
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 80 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Sep-2003 09:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (T_Bone):
From http://www.dictionary.com:

insolvency

\In*sol"ven*cy\, n.; pl. Insolvencies. (Law) (a) The condition of being insolvent; the state or condition of a person who is insolvent; the condition of one who is unable to pay his debts as they fall due, or in the usual course of trade and business; as, a merchant's insolvency. (b) Insufficiency to discharge all debts of the owner; as, the insolvency of an estate.

insolvency

n : lacking financial resources [ant: solvency]

-----

I'd say the last definition is the most simple and best applied to this case. What I wanted to point out is that this article implies that they would be in a situation where a liquidation of the company would be the only solution. This is simply not a fact and as Bill McEwan tried to explain at his deposition; they expect to be able to resolve this situation. The fact that this part has been left out in the article tells me that it is far from unbiased.

Furthermore, the plaintiffs did not file any complaints at the time of when the defendant asked to reschedule the deposition and both parties agreed to the new date. Why has this part been left out?

Also, Amiga Inc. made it perfectly clear to their employees from the start that the company is an investment company, meaning that they may run out of funds at times. When a company has no funds, it cannot pay anything or anyone. Everyone working for Amiga Inc. where perfectly aware of the risks involved. The court even agreed to Amiga Inc.'s plans to pay once the funds become available. You see, putting Amiga Inc. in a liquidation process will not benefit any of those who Amiga Inc. are in debt to because you cannot find a better guarantee for not getting your money back. Why is there no mention of this?

Since the court decided that Amiga Inc. may pay those debts whenever funds become available, the court obviously thinks that Amiga Inc. are still in a position of resolving the situation, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to continue. Yet the article states that "the future of the legendary Amiga brand and intellectual property is once again uncertain". I couldn't disagree more.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 81 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 24-Sep-2003 09:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Anonymous):
"My point is that www.Amiga.org is probably the number 1 amiga site on the net, and in this position it should make itself seem as impartial as possible."

My impression is that Kees is doing just that.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 82 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 09:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Bill Hoggett):
> but openly admitted bias at Aw.net means that everything posted there is obviously true and objective.

Maybe you right, perhaps AW.net is just as bad.

to repeat my last comment
**
My point is that www.Amiga.org is probably the number 1 amiga site on the net, and in this position it should make itself seem as impartial as possible.
**

and with that comment i'll let it rest.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 83 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Sep-2003 09:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Christian Kemp):
I regret that this is how you feel but will obey your request for my withdrawal from this thread. However, first I would like to ask for your understanding of my active participation in this specific thread by taking comment #80 into consideration. It is a quite obvious fact that this article is not an objective article and should be considered the source of this flamewar rather than the one critisizing it. Furthermore, I strongly believe that this thread would be a 50+ thread with or without my participation.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 84 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 24-Sep-2003 09:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (samface):
> I'd say the last definition is the most simple and best applied to this case.

It hardly matters which one you choose, they all fit to a "T"

> What I wanted to point out is that this article implies that they would be in
> a situation where a liquidation of the company would be the only solution.

No, the article clearly states that as a "Maybe", and as you should know by now, any sentence constructed around a "Maybe" when that "Maybe" is a possibility, is a logical tautology. It's always true, regardless of the input conditions pertaining to the "Maybe". ie: if you state something CAN happen, and it CAN, the statement is "true".

I'm not critisising your logic, I think it's far more likely that there are logical nuances that are getting lost in the translation. I can't blame you for that, because if I tried argueing in your native language, I'm sure I wouldn't do too well :D

> This is simply not a fact and as Bill McEwan tried to explain at his
> deposition; they expect to be able to resolve this situation.

You say the article implies, well, it doesn't. Bill McEwen is doing the "implying" when he says he "expects" things to change, even though he couldn't prove it to the judge. The source of "implication" is McEwen, not the article.

> The fact that this part has been left out in the article tells me that it is
> far from unbiased.

Why would the article contain something McEwen couldn't comment on? He said it was a "secret" so how could the article reasonably state this?

> Furthermore, the plaintiffs did not file any complaints at the time of when
> the defendant asked to reschedule the deposition and both parties agreed to
> the new date. Why has this part been left out?

Because it was already mentioned in the court documents why, and there is no legal reason why it SHOULD have been brought up at that time.

> Also, Amiga Inc. made it perfectly clear to their employees from the start
> that the company is an investment company, meaning that they may run out of
> funds at times.

Well, not ALL the employees, as the court has already decided.

> When a company has no funds, it cannot pay anything or anyone. Everyone
> working for Amiga Inc. where perfectly aware of the risks involved. The court
> even agreed to Amiga Inc.'s plans to pay once the funds become available.

No, the court didn't "agree" to it, the court "demanded" it.

As for being an investment company (I've said this before) the *investers* are the ones who are agreeing to "risk" with their investments, NOT the employees, or the creditors! Or (for crying out loud) the customers! Only the *investors* are supposed to be exposed to risk, that's why they call them "investors"

Amiga Inc has *no* right to subject customers, creditors, or employees money to investment risk! NO legal right. ALL risk is to be burdoned on investors. That's the LAW!

> You see, putting Amiga Inc. in a liquidation process will not benefit any of
> those who Amiga Inc. are in debt to because you cannot find a better guarantee
> for not getting your money back. Why is there no mention of this?

Because nobody WANTS Amiga to liquidate! Not even Genesi! Genesi is sueing to get Amiga to honor it's contract, and actually GIVE Amiga money.

> Since the court decided that Amiga Inc. may pay those debts whenever funds
> become available, the court obviously thinks that Amiga Inc. are still in a
> position of resolving the situation, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to
> continue.

What are you talking about? The court unconditionally decided Amiga is fully liable for the plaintiffs complaint, and was ordered to pay. There was no "bankrupcy" option. This has absolutely NO bearing on the courts opinion of Amiga's credibility.

> Yet the article states that "the future of the legendary Amiga brand and
> intellectual property is once again uncertain". I couldn't disagree more.

How can you disagree with "uncertain"? It's a logical tautology! Regardless of the input conditions, the uncertainty is "true"

Is Amiga's sucess 100% certain? No
Is Amiga's failure 100% certain? No

Therefore, it's "uncertain" and any statements saying it's "uncertain" are true. Always.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 85 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 24-Sep-2003 10:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (samface):
> I regret that this is how you feel but will obey your request for my withdrawal
> from this thread.

:(

Guess I better take a break too, I was the "ying" to your "yang" :D
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 86 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by krize on 24-Sep-2003 11:00 GMT
yes, take a break get a life .. argue with samface is madness anyway, it will never stop ..

so both of you, go and sit in the corner !!!!!!!
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 87 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 24-Sep-2003 11:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
> Still, Im not going back to Amiga.org anymore now - that place is dead and
> boring.

So it was a bad thing for Wayne to leave then? :)

Dammy
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 88 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 24-Sep-2003 11:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (samface):
> Please not the use of the word "insolvency" and please realize what it
> means to the Amiga community when mentioned in relation to an Amiga company.

So your stating as a fact that McEwen has committed perjury in a Federal Courtroom? My, what a strange day when Samface declares Bill McEwen a liar.

Dammy
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 89 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 11:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Christian Kemp):
***applause***
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 90 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 24-Sep-2003 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (samface):
>Everyone working for Amiga Inc. where perfectly>aware of the risks involved.I can assure you, right here and now, that that might have been the case for anyone working *for* Amiga Inc, but it certainly wasn't the case for everyone working *with* Amiga Inc. Back in 2001, roughly at the same time they stopped paying medical insurance for their employees, I got a lovely "we will pay you X amount of dollars in a year, minimum" offer from them. And there was no "but hark! We may or may not actually *have* X amounts of dollars at the end of the year" attached.Of course, the writing was on the wall even back then. So we changed that offer to "for one year, you will pay us every month an amount to bring the total amount paid to either the total amount due to sales, or to X*n/12 dollars, where n is the number of months since the start of the year, whichever is larger". I.e. the very same minimum amount of X dollars in a year, but now due monthly. Apparently, the pointy heads at AI didn't quite understand it, so they changed it to "For one year, we will pay you each month either the total amount due to sales, or X/12 dollars, whichever is larger" --- which was a change that could potentially drive total amount due within a year past X, even though fewer copies had been sold than required for X.In other words, they changed the contract to their disadvantage --- and *still* didn't say anything about "but there is some risk, you know, we actually don't have all that much money right now". *That* became apparent when they suddenly went into "stealth mode"....
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 91 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 24-Sep-2003 12:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Christian Kemp):
Freedom of speech does not include a right to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 92 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 24-Sep-2003 12:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (John Block):
> Freedom of speech does not include a right to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre.

That's exactly why samface has been asked to stop.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 93 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by AlBolone on 24-Sep-2003 12:53 GMT
> Please not the use of the word "insolvency" and please realize what it
> means to the Amiga community when mentioned in relation to an
> Amiga company.

Yeah, right. Because we're all babies that must be protected from the sad truth ... who are you trying to defend here so notoriously? And with what scenario? This "everything's ok, on schedule and rocking" bullshit while no products were near to delivery or clear information available is exactly the *FUD* that kept the market struggling (and therefor shrinking) for years now. And if I didn't miss something in the last 3 years, there's nothing really that Amiga Inc. did for the market, the community and the brand itself that would justify the bonus of defending their failure like you generously do ...

Ahit, AI is nothing but a company that was supposed to reanimate the Amiga. At least keep things stable. They messed it up. Badly. Why sticking to the idea that they didn't (and might safe us all someday) so desperately?? Bullshit! If you ask me, any other potential owner would be better for us then those loosers over at AI right now. They had their chance. Let's move on. Quick. Because the Amiga doesn't have all the time in the world ... (if any at all anymore)
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 94 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by zimmy on 24-Sep-2003 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (samface):
So none of what was written was true?

How far have you inserted your head in your rectal passage?


zimmy
Gulak Harbor
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 95 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 24-Sep-2003 14:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (samface):
>>>>
How can an article be unbiased, factual and be based solely on the plaintiff's claims in a not yet settled court case at the same time?
>>>>
I'm sorry the article is based completely on the publically available court documents (in fact most of it is from Bill McEwens deposition). What fact in the posting do you have a problem with Sam??
-Tig
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 96 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 24-Sep-2003 15:09 GMT
I thought the article was very fair and offers a summary of events of the last few years in one place.

There was one part of the article that I don't think was quite true though - the part about the Amiga Inc IPO. This is going from memory, because the pages (along with other interesting stuff) seems to have been removed from Amiga Inc's website.

As I remember it, Amiga Inc offered people in the Amiga community the chance to own a piece of Amiga Inc. There was no mention of floating the company on any stock exchange. Publicly advertising shares in a private company is illegal and I believe Amiga Inc were fined for it. Of course, maybe the IPO was a seperate incident.

The history of Amiga Inc is quite interesting - I suspect the only way this damned company will make any money is for them to write a book with the whole sorry truth in it. That's what the founder of (now bankrupt) dot-com company Boo did, in the book Boo Hoo. Very interesting read, btw.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 97 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 24-Sep-2003 15:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (smithy):
Hell, I didn't even remember the IPO untill you just now mentioned it! Completely forgot about it.

With that in mind, I've got to check on something...
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 98 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Nihilvor on 24-Sep-2003 17:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (takemehomegrandma):
I think that it is a good article. The only things that it doesn’t get right is the fact that, while Amiga wasn’t shouting in bold print that it was in trouble (which would be unprofessional), it didn’t hide the fact that economics had a lot to do with the office closing and that they were no longer getting money from partners or investors. In the forums rumor often takes precedence over official statements; for instance, many people claim that Amiga stated that the reason that they turned off their phones was because of a war dialer, while in fact—while they get lots of crazies calling—they denied that this was the “reason” behind the move. Overall, this article seems to be concerned with presenting the facts—anomalous as that might seem in the context of Amiga related news sites.
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 99 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Stew on 24-Sep-2003 18:04 GMT
Are we haeded for another 500+?

Stew
Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty. : Comment 100 of 120ANN.lu
Posted by Stew on 24-Sep-2003 18:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Bill Hoggett):
Does any sane person take anything posted there serious?

Stew
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