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[Motd] MOTD 24/Sep/2003ANN.lu
Posted on 24-Sep-2003 20:35 GMT by Christian Kemp38 comments
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I have changed the bevahiour of the "Unmoderated" category: starting today, posted items will only stay there until they are moved to a different category, or deleted. All old/unmoderated items have been moved to "Forum".
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 1 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 24-Sep-2003 18:44 GMT
Perhaps the forum, rant, etc could be completely separated from the news/rumour section? Like it is on amiga.org etc, one section for news *and rumours* (since the rumours have been one of ANN's key concepts since the beginning), and everything that doesn't fit there is moved onto a separate discussion board available via a link on the main page?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 2 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 18:44 GMT
Censorship AGAIN!
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 3 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Sep-2003 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
Huh?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 4 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 18:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christian Kemp):
> moved to a different category, or deleted

Censorship like Amigaworld and Amiga.org
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 5 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Sep-2003 18:48 GMT
Hi Ian, we were just thinking the same thing. Now your post is gone, so we will just answer to Christian's...

It so terribly sad, especially right at this moment. You will notice on this page:

http://www.genesi.lu/genesi_marketing.php

...that we feature ANN. The childish trolling back and forth between different groups have absolutely NO support from us. There was an exceptional thread here this weekend. Here it is:

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1064145406&category=forum

This is how things can be done and it gives the Community credibility. This other stuff just hurts the Community and scares people away. We should all get by that now.

We wish the best to the OS4 effort. We hope Eyetech sells all the AmigaOnes they can, little ones and big ones. Best wishes to both of them. This is about NEW markets folks and this anonymous cowardly stuff back and forth serves no one and hurts all of us.

We can show the world what we can do is very special. Let's do that.

Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 6 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Sep-2003 18:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
This is a news site. Not a chat site. Some editorial decisions need to be made on what gets to the main page. (Try posting a news item to Slashdot and see what happens.)
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 7 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 18:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Which pyschotic posted that, MarkTime or Paul_Gadd?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 8 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Sep-2003 18:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (bbrv):
> Now your post is gone

What post? I didn't delete any postings today.

>...that we feature ANN. The childish trolling back and forth between different
>groups have absolutely NO support from us.

I'm trying to contain all this in the "forum" category, which isn't visible be default to any outside visitor, and in the comments section, which once again, isn't as prominent as, say, the main page.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 9 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 19:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (bbrv):
Both the posts from IamCleverToo and IamTooClever are still available some posts down on the main page ...
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 10 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 19:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
... and IamSherminator ...
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 11 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 19:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Anonymous):
Oh *yawn* - I don't spoof my IP, so what makes you think that I posted those comments mr Buck?

Ian :-)
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 12 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by IanS on 24-Sep-2003 19:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
Happy now? ;-)
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 13 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Sep-2003 20:51 GMT
Christian, nothing against ANY moderation you have done. What some people do not understand is that this is the EXTREME result:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/09/24/microsoft.chat/index.html

See the Unmoderated thread above -- "geneSi in bankruptcy". Is this part of the Community here? Our opinion is no. Everyone is entitled to express their own opinion of course, but is this productive for anything? ANN is just a microcosm of the net's potential greatness or failure.

R&B
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 14 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 24-Sep-2003 21:01 GMT
Bad move Christian.

Now being all *GREEN* (colour of the forum)...

...I can't distinguish at at first glance, the trash, from something interesting.

And I think it is the first impression a lot of people had.


Maybe for the really crap things (if signalled by a certain amount of writers into that threads or for a matter of reasoning), you can move those all to a subpage, giving it a "chocolate" colour in order to singnal to other readers what is it...

For example, titles regarding bankrupcy of Genesi are sure a trollish thread and deserve or to be deleted, or to be moved into a subsection regarding trash news.

BUT UNMODERATED MUST REMAIN DIVIDED FROM FORUM, ALSO OLD NEWS...

This is MHO, sure you remain the owner and absolute master of your site, and could act at your own wish.


Ciao,

Raffaele
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 15 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Sep-2003 21:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (bbrv):
What's wrong Billy? you don't seem to mind the trolls so much when they're on YOUR side. You sow what you reap, and all the trolls you've been feeding over the past couple of years have spawned other trolls, and between the lot of them they've turned any amiga discussion *anywhere* into a childish slapfight. Witness Downix's comments at Slashdot of "it's not a real amiga" and the idiot who said that Amiga Inc was bankrupt so people should buy Genesi. Do you think that reflects well on ANYONE? Slashdot is read by all manner of IT people (read: possible customers), who read this tripe and conclude the Amiga (ANY variant of it) is as viable as a modern computing platform as a 48K Spectrum. When someone tries to do something about it (eg Christian now or the AmigaWord bunch) people start yelling CENSORSHIP! I predict the amiga will be dead within a year, and it will be antics like yours that killed it. You used to be a soldier, you appreciate the value of keeping people in check. If those morons listen to anyone, it's you. Do something about it, or watch your business die.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 16 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by IanS on 24-Sep-2003 21:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
>>When someone tries to do something about it (eg Christian now or the AmigaWord bunch) people start yelling CENSORSHIP!

Absolutely spot on. I agree with nearly all of your post TBH - but you must understand people don't think like this...
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 17 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by mark on 25-Sep-2003 00:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Christian Kemp):
>This is a news site. Not a chat site. Some editorial decisions need to be made
>on what gets to the main page. (Try posting a news item to Slashdot and see
>what happens.)

But Slashdot don't delete stories - ones which aren't posted never appear at all, and so no one ever sees them or posts to them. Indeed, I believe Slashdot have a policy of not deleting stories that mistakingly make it through (in most cases a duplicate), because that would involve deleting people's comments also.

It makes sense to decide that not everything should make it onto the main page, but this doesn't have to mean deleting items (for example, amiga.org's system, or simply keeping the current system where unmoderated and forum posts don't appear on the main page).
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 18 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 25-Sep-2003 00:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
well since I have never posted a single post that was anonymous, I'm guessing its not me.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 19 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 25-Sep-2003 01:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
WOW,

you all really give me a lot of power. You mean, I can just kill all of Amigadom by my posts.

This staggering amount of power that you give to me, or any 'troll' is just
unwarranted. I do agree that speech is important, words have meaning,
ideas have an effect. I also think the popularity of a website is
in its content, and a news site without comments, doesn't usually have
as much content as one with contents....heck people like the comments.
But lets put the effect of being a regular poster in context, it means
adding some content to the comments section....an optional section that
is not even on by default at ann.lu. You have to purposely read through them.
People going for news, may never see them. I am only the most rare of posters
to news....maybe I've posted 3 news stories in 3 years, to various sites.

What really killed Amiga, Inc. is they never released
a product people could purchase...I had nothing to do with it.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 20 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 25-Sep-2003 01:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
when people discuss 'trolls' it's because they don't have anything else to talk about.

the fact is, when someone hears something they don't agree with, 'trolling' is the knee jerk accuasation that comes flying out.

If anyone wants to discuss free speech topics in-depth, I'd be glad too. The fact is, I am not one who cries 'CENSORSHIP' though I will call censorship, censorship...thats just the correct word to use, sometimes...sorry if you don't like it.

But nevertheless, I fully support censorship at private websites like this one, private property is more important than free speech,...well I shouldn't say important, just more fundamental... without private property you'll never have free speech anyway.

But I do deride people who just say, I want to get rid of the rudeness....
as a matter of fact, I think that being rude is usually a mistake, but
there is a problem in trying to rid yourself of it.

The reason is, some ideas are inherently offensive. Free speech is only really
about 'political' speech which has nothing to do with ann anyway.
I mean you could say its more than political speech, but the highest level
of protection goes to political speech, in most countries.

The reason rudeness has to be protected, in terms of political speech, is because it is inherently offensive to go against society and the establishment.
To go against an idea, that has been built up by 2,000 years of Christian
tradition, for example, is going to be offensive. It will seem rude, maybe
even sacriligious to some. But thats how change comes about. Ideas are
thought of, they are advocated, and eventually they take hold.

Now you go back to ann.lu, which is a news site for amiga like related things.
This is never going to amount to what we consider the highest level of protected speech.

I'm a realist. I don't cry censorship. Certainly I haven't even witnessed
anything close to censorship, and even if I had, I wouldn't be against
the right of Christian to do it.

But what I will do, is call all these nancy drew's who get upset when someone
says that Amiga, Inc. isn't all they purport themselves to be, and think
the world is ending and full of hatred and trolls....well, I'll say to them
they out to think about growing some thicker skin.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 21 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith on 25-Sep-2003 02:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (MarkTime):
MarkTime, what that other dude was saying is that trolls are scaring away potential new customers. The rest of us already know that "the usual suspects" just like spouting and pushing peoples' buttons. There's maybe 10K people in the world right now who would call themselves "Amiga fans", that's just not a viable market even if there was only one supplier of Amiga stuff (of those 10K, you still need to subtract the "purists" who swear by their A2000 with enough add-ons to qualify as a Borg cube, and would never buy next-gen stuff). Like it or hate it, we have 2 major, competing suppliers. We *need* to attract new people, and behaving like a 5 yo in slashdot doesn't help matters. If people want to vent, that's OK, but not places like slashdot and OSNews, where possible new users hang out.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 22 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 04:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (MarkTime):
" when people discuss 'trolls' it's because they don't have anything else to talk about. "

The irony, half your problem MarkTime is you never ever ever look in the mirror.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 23 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 05:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (mark):
" But Slashdot don't delete stories"

However, Slashdot does not let you see its submission queue either.

Whereas ANN *DOES* let you see the stories in is submission queue (the Unmod section).

So your complaint is completely unfounded as you are NOT comparing like with like.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 24 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 05:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Anonymous):
However slashdots journalistic standards were too high for James "Im not trolling or biased" Russell.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 25 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 25-Sep-2003 07:36 GMT
Come on...

ANN is almost one of the more free and liberal sites I had seen.

When moderators censores posts, it is because it really is disturbing or other thingies like these.

And to avoid twin news, new politics of CK is to join the two news, if the second one is only a little add to the previous one.

I had one of my thread posts deleted and joined to another dated at 2 days ago, but I think this was a good thing not a bad...

Infact Christian add the link I signalled from my deleted post to the elder (but main) news thread, and it become more valuable.


At least, a suggest:

Dear Chris,

You could advice new readers, or better any reader with a little info window on top of your main page, that they must distinguish good news, from others, by waiting if these are moderated or cancelled, because ANN is a site which allows everybody to write, and only THEN the news are moderated, if necessary.

I hope my suggest was clear and understandable, excuse me for my poor skills in manage complex thoughts in plain english.


Ciao,

Raffaele
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 26 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Paul Gadd on 25-Sep-2003 07:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
Sorry twat but your mistaken, now take your Amiga Inc worshipping medication and hopefully you will take a overdose and die.

So the world may know.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 27 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 07:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Anonymous):
ROTFLMAO!

You have obviously not read slashdot if you think they have ANY journalistic standards whatsoever.

The number of questionable items and blatant trolls which they post on their front page far outweighs any potential useful or interesting material the slashdot editors may inadvertantly let through.

Unlile ANN, whose moderators to an excellent job (especially given the amount of trolling which comes from all sides).
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 28 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
Exactly, so even a site without any obvious journalist standards rejected it no less than 5 times according to JamesR.

Sayes a lot for the article eh?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 29 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 25-Sep-2003 09:42 GMT
Here's hoping that I won't have to trawl through half a million crap topics before I find something worth reading.

I really couldn't give a toss about "Shawn the Arch Troll" (or whatever it was), and I'm sure alot of other people don't either. If you can't think of anything useful to post, don't post it here.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 30 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 09:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
> Sayes a lot for the article eh?

No, it says that it's not "news for nerds, stuff that matters," and that nobody outside our little funnyfarm gives a shit.

Also keep in mind that HeUnique (sp?) is a story moderator at /.
The Bouma claptrap about "new Amigas" might sneak in from time to time (any wonder that ppl start laughing at any mention of "Amiga"?), but not any news based on reality, which wouldn't suit the powers that be.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 31 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by BrianK on 25-Sep-2003 14:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
I've seen a few comments from an Anonymous user that actions Christian Kemp has been taking are censorship.

First, Christian is trying to do what he can to make this experience good. I don't believe I've seen Christian edit anyone's comments nor remove an opinion he disagrees with. I have seen him request users to clean up their acts and users that haven't been able to do this have been asked to leave. I'm strongly opposed to your recent statements as Christian is not going around and trying to modify opinions to match his own. I think he's done a good job at letting discussions flow as they may and putting up with trollers.

Second, an individual making decisions isn't censorship. He's not stopping your ability to communicate. He's not disallowing you a voice. Also, you can make your own discussion group somewhere else in the world. So, he's not shutting you out.

Christian -- good job at trying to improve the site! I'm sorry that some users feel you're censoring. Other users, that have been in your position, understand what you're trying to do and how greatly that differs from true censorship.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 32 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 15:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
No, it merely says that the article was of no interest to a Linux fanboy site.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 33 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 25-Sep-2003 16:02 GMT
Whats the difference? :-?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 34 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 25-Sep-2003 16:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Anonymous):
" when people discuss 'trolls' it's because they don't have anything else to talk about. "

>>The irony, half your problem MarkTime is you never ever ever look in the >>mirror.

hmmm well I just looked in the mirror this morning, oh you weren't being literal?

I said many times all I ever do is troll and I don't have anything better to do.

What is confusing you, mr. anonymous?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 35 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 25-Sep-2003 16:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (CodeSmith):
@Codesmith,

I don't disagree with everything you say....so let's say for point of argument, that they are scaring away potential customers.

And...what are you going to do.

First, I don't think Amiga, Inc.'s business is exactly the same as ANN.LU's business....so for one, why is this important.

Secondly, even if it is somehow important, what are you going to do?

This complexity exists in almost every organization involving people, what is the solution?

I thought I started down that line of discussion once already....it's easy to say something is a potential problem...what is the solution...as I mentioned once before, some solutions actually make the problem worse. Hopefully we are aiming at a good solution, not one that worsens the problem.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 36 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Sep-2003 18:32 GMT
about f'ing time. hopefully ANN.lu will now get back to being a decent place to visit again. i want news and (decent) rumours. not idiotic useless flame wars
and...basically. 12 years olds trying to upstage each other.
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 37 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Codesmith on 25-Sep-2003 22:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (MarkTime):
Marktime, so what you're basically saying is that trolls will go and do as they please because, well, what can I (or anyone) do about it. In other words people should do what they want, when they want as long as they can get away with it. That's called either anarchy (when the citizens of a country do it), dictatorship (when a country's government does it) or imperialism (when a strong country does it to weaker ones). I guess this means that you're 100% in agreeming with the US's recent military action in Iraq, because the only thing that matters the fact that no-one could stop the US from doing it. All other considerations (protecting national interests, the price of oil, getting rid of a dictator), that's all just bollocks right?
MOTD 24/Sep/2003 : Comment 38 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by mark on 28-Sep-2003 16:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Anonymous):
"So your complaint is completely unfounded as you are NOT comparing like with like."

Except I wasn't the one that brought up Slashdot. That's my exact point - it was an unfair comparison for the poster I was replying to to bring up!

I couldn't care less about stories being allowed or not, but the point is that Slashdot doesn't delete threads.
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