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[Web] Dave Haynie InterviewANN.lu
Posted on 01-Oct-2003 20:53 GMT by Kees (Edited on 2003-10-02 07:10:48 GMT by Christian Kemp)24 comments
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While i´m here ... check out Dave Haynie Interview.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 1 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Oct-2003 05:45 GMT
hehe....Dave dismiss the pegasos/mos completely and over at a.org hehehhe Genesi staff desperatly wanna send their systems to him.
This is funny. Very nice interview!!
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 2 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 02-Oct-2003 05:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
atleast he'll buy AmigaOne :) thats better than no interesst at all in either
systems
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 3 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 02-Oct-2003 05:55 GMT
I'm always exited reading a few lines from Dave Haynie. A truly respective person in the times back where he was in best form at commodore but in this interview he really hits low in some sentences. Specially I'm criticising him for being totally undiplomatic when it comes on touching the community. E.g. showing his non-interest in Pegasos/MorphOS and talking about it like it was some sort of agressor taking away the people from the Amiga community.

The interview and feedback he gave had various contradictions.

a) He said that he is fully involved in his work and has not much time about investigating into recent movements in the Amiga community. Which leads to the question why he judges that harsh about Pegasos and MorphOS when he never seen it in action or never read about it or got himself involved into it. Ok I don't know maybe he spent some time reading it. Regardless of that he is a bit undiplomatic because he seem to have forgotten that MorphOS was written by people who hold the back of the Amiga community for nearly as long as himself going up and down for various years until they decided to write a new OS from scratch without the limitations of the old AmigaOS and the problems that Hyperion is hitting now (or used to hit). Someone with the intellect like Mr. Haynie should know this.

b) He further wrote that he hadn't much time investigating into the AmigaONE either but plans to buy one and have AmigaOS4 running on it. He described it as the definate successor of Amiga due to the branding. While on the otherhand he seem to miss a bunch of informations like that the AmigaONE is nothing else than a re-licensed Teron mobo.

c) He then describes what benefits an AmigaONE or Pegasos would have these days because there are so many software missing on these devices and what he couldn't do with Linux or Windows e.g. describing cheap hardware like updating his AMD CPU really soon and that he sees no sense in spending 1000 USD for hardware without software. This raises the impression that he has no slightest idea in what's going on in the community right now. Which hardware is cheaper ? The Teron mobo or the Pegasos ? Which OS is already available and being used from the Amigans ? AmigaOS4 or MrophOS ?. He then continues talking about AROS and that it's some sort of 'acceptance' for it being existing while he forgets that nearly 40%-50% of AROS is being used in MorphOS. Even yet when you dig into the AROS code you find huge parts of contributions from the MorphOS team like the Morphos-Intuition folder with all the files in it.

I think Mr. Dave Haynie should really spent a weekend into the community again and be a bit more diplomatic in the way he talks. He is not just a community member like 'samface' or the other Trolls that we can easily ignore what they say. Dave Haynie has a high standpoint in this community whom I respected many years and I must admit that I feel that I need to re-thing in this area again.

Neither MorphOS, AROS or AmigaOS are seed cancer or stuff made by some big enemies in outside. They all grew up from the same beliefs, same spirit, same ideals and same people who shared this community for many years. Regardless of his personal choice he should seriously be a bit more diplomatic in that area.

I also think that Mr. Haynie should 'look' a bit closer to the clowns that he is holding the back (now speaking business) he is the best example of trapping from one company to another which raises bancrupcy faster than he could sign the contract.

Neither AmigaONE nor Pegasos - MorphOS nor AmigaOS are what they used to be or what can be called 'what used to be Amiga'. They are all new modern hardware. The hardware as we all know have nothing in common with the old Amiga's. Even the OS's be it MorphOS, AROS or AmigaOS are not what they used to be. Re-Writing it in a modern language from scratch (AROS, MorphOS) or using parts of the old code and re-write what possible in a short timeframe and then iterrative move old shit out and replaced with new C code (AmigaOS4) is the only logical consequence and Mr. Haynie should knew this. He seem to still sit on the high chair where he left 10 years ago and till today his time seem to have halted while his kids are growing up. Dave, maybe you wake up living in the present instead of the past. Be thankful that these people TODAY (regardless of MorphOS or AmigaOS) are still using the Amiga (in terms of spirit, roots, code, homework) and keep it's name still HEARD in the community and the business.

Sure there are large commercial interests behind it, not everyone can live from pure passion.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 4 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 02-Oct-2003 06:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (- GALAXY -):
I think you have, perhaps, misread his statements. He is very much a realist, and has made a very realistic assessment of the state of Amiga and its community of late, even cautioning of a possible (though unlikely) split because of the two competing OSes (MorphOS and Amiga OS).

I did not see where Dave Haynie dismissed, or necessarily 'dissed', Pegasos or MorphOS. He did talk about not be as loyal to that, compared to Amiga/OS, and seemed to wonder what features or incentive could or would entice one to switch (this reasoning was even applied to Amiga OS within the context of the current marketplace, considering an average PC and operating system).

I think the interview answers offer, at the very least, some sense of direction or point to possible solutions--even if they are arrived at via reading about the contrasting experiences he has had.

Nice dream team idea he has :)

--EyeAm
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 5 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 02-Oct-2003 07:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Well, as I wrote on amiga.org:

"It's very obvious that he has a lot of emotions attached to the "name", heck, "the name" is probably a big part of his self identity. There is where he made his fame, there is where he made his great accomplishments. I would probably feel exactly the same if I were in his shoes (even though the brand is pretty fücked up by now).

But that does not make his words the "truth" in any way. He has not tried OS4, neither MorphOS, yet he "knows" a lot! But the explanation to that can probably be found in what I wrote above. Emotions connected to the brand, not facts. I'm OK with that, and I hope he will have an opportunity to try MorphOS soon, I know he will feel right at home!"

bhogget suggested that the reason was more due to personal "issues":

"He does show a certain preference for the Amiga branded solution as opposed to the Genesi one, but that's most likely because he has a certain distrust of some of the personalities involved. There's some sort of history there."

I think that the explanation is in both of the above. One thing is for sure though, (again:) he has not tried neither OS4 nor MorphOS, yet he "knows" a lot! I mean, huh?! And how about the TransAm (or whatever that PPC Amiga replacement computer from PIOS that Dave himself was involved in) and the "AmiJoe" PPC cards that was supposed to run pOS? I wonder if he pictured himselves doing a "fundamentally Amiga wannabe project" at that time? Oh, well ...

I wish he would understand that there is a major part in this community that either are using MorphOS on Pegasos on a daily basis right now or thinking about doing that as soon as the Pegasos II is here and MorphOS evolves. People that are very happy about using that as a full blown Amiga, and have waited for years and years to be able to do just that. And those people have allways looked up to Dave Haynie as some sort of an idol, but now he dismiss their choice of "Amiga", he dismiss their investments as some kind of "wannabe project" (hence he dismiss them/their choice as "stipid"), not based on facts (not at all), but rather on emotions and personal issues/agendas from ancient history against some people involved with the Pegasos/MorphOS projects. Dave Haynie is a person that at least I expected to be a little more neutral than this when speaking in public ...

Well, there was a great interview anyway. As I wrote on amiga.org, this is more like a *document* that might even have some historical value. Dave Haynie was a great engineer back on the glory Commodore days. I bet he still is a great engineer, but he has not been part of the Amiga community for a long time (not as an engineer, perhaps as a spectator). So while it was very interesting to read what he had to say, it was only interesting from a historical point of view. But thanks to Dave for taking the time and write these interesting answeres, and to amiga.org for making it happen!
:-)
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 6 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Oct-2003 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (takemehomegrandma):
LOL!!! Some people are so blind that they always try to find way to excuse other people for having a different and more then reasonable opinion.

Emotional connected to the name.....geezs.....
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 7 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 02-Oct-2003 08:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
Hi Anonymous!

> LOL!!! Some people are so blind

Well, if I'm so blind help me to see then! :-)

> that they always try to find way to excuse other people for having
> a different

I am not excusing anyone. Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion, I have not said anything about that. But Dave Haynie is a cult figure, an idol to many, and he speaks publically about a delicate issue, without knowing what he is talking about because he has not tried any of the systems. That's all!

> and more then reasonable opinion.

It would be interesting to hear your explanation of how an opinion based on that could be reasonable? However, I have a feeling that your explanation will be highly subjective ...
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 8 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 02-Oct-2003 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (takemehomegrandma):
>One thing is for sure though, (again:) he has not tried neither OS4 nor MorphOS, >yet he "knows" a lot!

He should know some about OS4 :

" Both Dave Haynie and Heinz Wrobel have agreed to serve as technical consultants and the design documents for the HAL and Virtual Environment are currently being re-written to take account of the relevant feedback we collected"

Copyed from OS4 Progress-report Tuesday 05 March 2002
http://news.amigarulez.com/print.php?sid=460
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 9 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 02-Oct-2003 08:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (takemehomegrandma):
... and this is the result of idols making public proclamations:

---
In fact, I'm not so keen on MorphOS, anyway (taking a similar approach to it as Dave Haynie expounded on within his recent interview). I regard Apple's OS the same way. It's just kind of 'there', to me. But I think Dave said it best: "It's not Amiga."
---

This is kind of funny (but not really), since Dave Haynie have never tried MorphOS on a Pegasos. Of course it's not "Amiga" in branding, but it sure as hell is to us users in every other aspect.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 10 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by smp266 on 02-Oct-2003 08:36 GMT
If anything I think the community has consolidated. Instead of being split over PPC 68k AGA, OCS, 24 bit like before... Matured might be a better term.

We are content that PPC is the preferred platform for the next couple of years.
The x86 golden age seems to be ending, so all platforms will have to transition to a new CPU. (Thinking expensive x86-64, so what difference does it make which 64 bit cpu I choose.)

So many things can be/are done on computers nowadays... there seems to be room for new contenders or specialist systems.

Mr Haynie should read less Sci-Fi and more history.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 11 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 02-Oct-2003 09:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (takemehomegrandma):
[QUOTE}
In Reply to Comment 7:
... and this is the result of idols making public proclamations:

---
In fact, I'm not so keen on MorphOS, anyway (taking a similar approach to it as Dave Haynie expounded on within his recent interview). I regard Apple's OS the same way. It's just kind of 'there', to me. But I think Dave said it best: "It's not Amiga."
---

This is kind of funny (but not really), since Dave Haynie have never tried MorphOS on a Pegasos. Of course it's not "Amiga" in branding, but it sure as hell is to us users in every other aspect."
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you're quoting me there, but it's not *because* of Dave Haynie that I have the viewpoint I do. I simply concur with him, or share a similar viewpoint. I'm not led or blinded by the icons that come and go ("Bye, Jim Collas...") :)

My main thing was that *whomever* is in charge, get together people that are valuable and can contribute something substantial to what Amiga was and make something new, and stop this whole pattern of bankruptcy, buyout, stupid decisions, and so on. A path paved on a clear and sensible vision.

It shouldn't be rocket science to satisfy the 'classic' crowd and the 'future' crowd, and find a solution there that is going to generate money (needed for longevity, stability...)

Regarding Dave Haynie never trying Morphos or Pegasos, the interview answers plainly state that he saw no real reason to try them (like, what is different about them from the others? What incentives?).

And since people think MorphOS is so very close to being Amiga OS, just how do they even have the right to infringe upon the look and workings of Amiga OS (i.e., if it's MORE than the equivalent of a 'soundalike song' in a copyright infringement suit within the music industry), if that's what has happened?

Can't have it both ways: Either MorphOS is practically 'like' Amiga OS, and can run Amiga stuff--for which they'd have to PAY Amiga to be able to say the product can do all that, I should think--or there is something so 'different' about it that is enticing enough to try it.

In short, the alternate operating systems springing up just want to BE Amiga, Inc. and have their products BE Amiga OS. That's the plain truth of it. :) Did these same people try to suggest things to Amiga before they made that decision? Did they try to work with Amiga before? I know I did. (I also know about the deaf ears).

Loyalties are kind of complex sometimes. I think someone (or a group of people) can be both liked and disliked at the same time, for different reasons.

Maybe these alternative movements were born out of frustration by some people, because those at Amiga (throughout the years) didn't listen, or thought they had a better idea.

But "It's still not Amiga" means a bit more than what is on the surface. These new movements and competing products don't have the history that Amiga still does, except for simply having left all of that behind to pursue something from the state of inspiration, revenge, or whatever. Amiga still has the name, the patents (or at least the use of them per sale agreement with Gateway), and all relevant intellectual property.

(insert famous Shakespeare quote regarding 'What's in a name...' here) The answer is, indeed, found in the name. The Hebrews knew it; those who study Semiotics know it; astrologers know it; and metaphysicians. It can be laughed off by the ignorant, but the truth remains that Amiga OS and MorphOS have two different fates. :)

--EyeAm
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 12 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 02-Oct-2003 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (EyeAm):
> Either MorphOS is practically 'like' Amiga OS, and can run Amiga stuff--for
> which they'd have to PAY Amiga to be able to say the product can do all that, I
> should think

You think wrong.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 13 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Andreas Wolf on 02-Oct-2003 10:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (takemehomegrandma):
> And how about the TransAm [...] and the "AmiJoe" PPC cards that was supposed to run pOS?

Only the transAM was supposed to run pOS, at AmiJoe times pOS was already gone for good. The AmiJoe was supposed to run AmigaOS/m68k through a m68k-(JIT)-emulator. In addition Claus Herrmann wanted to port his PowerOS (http://www.poweros.de) to the AmiJoe.
And maybe you still remember http://elwoodb.free.fr/articles/Amijoe/OSpoll/ :-)
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 14 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 02-Oct-2003 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (- GALAXY -):
@GALAXY

You're wrong. Dave Haynie does not need time in the community to form an impression of the AmigaOne/MorphOS situation because his comments were made from the point of view of someone OUTSIDE the community, which is the sort of person that has to be attracted if both solutions are not to turn out to be geeky but irrelevant.

When Haynie makes his point about software or lack of it, he's spot on. He also makes the point that the only selling points of both solutions are their Amiga-ness and the fact that they're not PCs. This may be sufficient for a tiny fanatical market, but won't hold much water in the Big Real World.

People are accusing Dave of not being in touch with the Amiga happenings. One has to wonder if the Amiga community is not in touch with the real world instead.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 15 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 02-Oct-2003 10:45 GMT
Hello Bill Hoggett,

"You're wrong. Dave Haynie does not need time in the community to form an impression of the AmigaOne/MorphOS situation because his comments were made from the point of view of someone OUTSIDE the community."

In case you forgot. I am commenting from OUTSIDE the community as well. I don't own a Pegasos or AmigaONE nor have I touched my a3k for the past couple of years. I am an 'outsider' who spent some times following this community (6-8 months). I left the Amiga nearly 7 years ago, having had a nice time on Amiga for nearly 12 years and now I use Linux these days where I feel quite confortable with. But it entertains me to see what actually happened with the remaining bits of this community and how people slam their butt with fancy comments.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 16 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Andreas Wolf on 02-Oct-2003 10:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Andreas Wolf):
addendum:

It seems Claus now rather enjoys LAN parties than writing AmigaOS reimplementations.
http://volume1.lanfinity.de/active.php?inc=userview&userview_id=542

;-)
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 17 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 02-Oct-2003 12:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (- GALAXY -):
@GALAXY

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to have a go at you personally.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 18 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by BrianK on 02-Oct-2003 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (- GALAXY -):
'Specially I'm criticising him for being totally undiplomatic when it comes on touching the community. E.g. showing his non-interest in Pegasos/MorphOS and talking about it like it was some sort of agressor taking away the people from the Amiga community.'

Why should he be diplomatic? He's only representing his view not any company view also, he doesn't have to try to impress anyone. I think his raw/direct view is refreshing compared to a white washed soft walk around the issue. So, he feels that PegasOS/MorphOS is an agressor and from a point of view he's right.


I don't feel your point A) has any contradictions. He appears not to have been following the community in-depth but sees what MorphOS is doing as a bad thing. I'll give you that he may want to dig a littler deeper before he comments but he's human, people comment all the time with the information they have, which is often times not enough to make an informed decision. Heck, the USA has a president which appears to had a feeling of WMD and took over a country on his hunch. Dave's isn't close to as bad.

I feel your point B) showed no contradictions at all. So, he has little time researching but believes in the Amiga name and hope those that use it get it right. That's fine. He readily admitted he's loyal to 'Amiga' even if that may happen to be in name only.

'I think Mr. Dave Haynie should really spent a weekend into the community again and be a bit more diplomatic in the way he talks'
I disagree I feel Mr. Dave Haynie should do what interests and concerns him. This may or may not be a dwelve into the Amiga v MorphOS communities and their associated splits.
I disagree with his need to be more diplomatic. He only represents himself so why should he need to walk on egg shells? He shouldn't I applaud him for putting his view plainly and straight forward.

'The hardware as we all know have nothing in common with the old Amiga's.'
Yes and Dave makes a similar comment.

'He seem to still sit on the high chair where he left 10 years ago and till today his time seem to have halted while his kids are growing up'
Come on no need for personal attacks against Dave. I see no signs in anything he says that makes me believe he does not care for his family or his childern.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 19 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Velcro on 02-Oct-2003 13:54 GMT
Very good interview, if a bit of a long read. Its always good to hear from Dave.

His assesment of the Amiga world (now as an outsider)is probably quite true, but makes hard reading for most of us. The most interesting part of the interviewfor me was the historical look back at the Escom/PIOS era, through to Merclania.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 20 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by IanS on 02-Oct-2003 14:32 GMT
Sheesh, he's allowed to have an opinion you know. :-)

Ian
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 21 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 03-Oct-2003 10:08 GMT
I respect Haynie's opinions when it comes to hardware design, but
judging the success of a hardware system doesn't seem to be his
strength. Let's see, none of the products he worked on at C= were a
success. The Scala hardware project failed too. The new ESCOM Amigas
(Walker) failed. Haynie's PIOS/Metabox hardware projects were scrapped
internally, and the company failed, including Haynie's US branch. Then
of course, the Merlancia affair failed miserably, followed by the
Fortele failure. The only success story here seems to be Scala - and
Haynie left that company to concentrate on the failures.

Not that I'm blaming Haynie for any of this, it seems to have been bad
management decisions as well as quite normal circumstances (not all
development is fruitful, even if it is competently made). But I
wouldn't exactly trust Haynie to tell which company has the chance for
success and which hasn't, unless someone convinces me he's some sort
of masochist.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 22 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by EmGee on 03-Oct-2003 11:09 GMT
Dave Haynie has moved on, there's no REAL Amiga connection anymore. None of the original C= stars are involved anymore. It's just a history fact.
And Dave said something lots of people have to understand, to start a new Amiga WOW factor computer you need like $250 MILLION and a big developement team.
This is NEVER going to happen again. The world has changed too much. No Amiga ONE or TWO or THREE is going to get that much attention. People have their new Amiga's in the form of a PS2 or XBOX, or Gamecube. Turn on the machine, insert disk and play.....
The orignal Amiga was there in the right time in the right place.
Leave it there...
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 23 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by - GALAXY - on 03-Oct-2003 13:29 GMT
Well the point is that Dave Haynie had his best times at Commodore way back. It's not just one person who is responsible for the success of the Amiga. It's the entire team, all the people involved into the success of Amiga. They were not just employees, they were far more, friends, people that agreed on one thing, they saw so much good in it that it became more a passion rather than normal work. That was the success of the Amiga I belive. If you watch The Dethbed Vigil then you get some impressions how it may have been.

There are a bunch of circumstances:

- Commodore had a name,
- The product was cool,
- The team was cool,
- They belived in the product,
- The work was half paid half passion,
- The time where they worked on it was the right one,

Everything matched. Once this 'dream' begun to split - everything began to fail. You won't come back to the high you once had, no matter how good you are and how much you belived into the Amiga, there was something missing, the team, the passion, the work. It's not as it was before.

I belive that some sort of my explaination must have happened. I think you can't blame Haynie for these failures.
Dave Haynie Interview : Comment 24 of 24ANN.lu
Posted by Oric1 on 03-Oct-2003 16:30 GMT
Hi
Interesting things as always when it come from Hazy, very few comment though from the community. Others threads are full and completely ininteresting.

Just sad :(

Thanks Hazy for taking the time to answers all these questions, and for all you've done for the Amiga community. I hope that you'll come back when you'll have more time :)

ps I saw your name while poking on the C128 :)

Oric1
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