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[News] Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former AttorneysANN.lu
Posted on 02-Oct-2003 05:11 GMT by Rich Woods (Edited on 2003-10-02 07:15:20 GMT by Christian Kemp)427 comments
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Amiga's Attorneys Are Granted Leave Leaving Amiga with NO Legal Representation. "This court hereby orders, judges and decrees, that Diana S. Shukis, Stephen P. VanDerhoef & Cairncross & Hempelmann P.S. may withdraw as counsel of record for Defendant Amiga, Inc. The withdrawal is effective immediately upon entry of this Order.

DONE IN OPEN COURT this 30th day of September, 2003.

/s/

Robert S. Lasnik"

Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 351 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Oct-2003 20:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 350 (Lando):
Yet according to EyeTech, the AmigaOnes they have shipped ARE AmigaOnes.

So who is lying? Moss or EyeTech?
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 352 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 03-Oct-2003 20:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 351 (Anonymous):
According to the original announcement, the wording outlines *SPECIFICALLY* The AmigaOne motherboard from Eyetech *OR* AmigaOS4.

It's one thing to not be able to honor their commitments, but if they try to sqirm out of their commitments with "weasel words" I'd have to wash my hands of them for good, and that would be a shame, as right now I *DO* plan on getting an AmigaOne once OS4 is available.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 353 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by pebbles on 03-Oct-2003 20:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 348 (pixie):
' When I hear all this exodus crap'

i can confirm that this goes on and happens. when i joined amiga-org and amigaworld-net i recieved a bunch of email at amiga-org from people that belong
to both places telling me they look forward to talking to me, but only if i only
post on amigaworld-net because they dont like amiga-org.

i think the last one still in my inbox is from 'ikir' (i think thats his name) you can ask the webmaster at amiga-org if its true. i give my permission to look at the email.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 354 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Oct-2003 22:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Rassilon):
Mistakes my ass, more like fraud
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 355 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Oct-2003 22:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (EyeAm):
> In fact, I'm not so keen on MorphOS, anyway (taking a similar approach to it as Dave Haynie expounded on within his recent interview). I regard Apple's OS the same way. It's just kind of 'there', to me. But I think Dave said it best: "It's not Amiga."

It's just a name. I mean have you or Dave used either AOS4 or MOS?

> I would hope that Amiga doesn't declare bankruptcy (so far, it never has had to, under that name; it always seemed to be the parent company); but if it has to, it has to. I don't see it happening, though. :)

You don't see it happening? What, do you know who the Amiga Inc. creditors are and why they seem to have infinite patience?

It seems whatever you see isn't reality and whatever you don't see is. That's quite a paradox you have there.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 356 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Oct-2003 22:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Mikey C):
>Bah, If Amiga weren`t being taken to court needlesly by a competitor on very thin grounds, Amiga would have more money to make things happen. Instead they are having to spend the money on legal costs. But I suppose that hasn`t crossed your mind has it?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh my that is hilarious.

It's those EVIL Genesi people! They stole the money! It explains EVERYTHING!!!
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 357 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Oct-2003 22:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Mikey C):
> When OS4 Ships, then You can rightly say, where is the T-Shirt and Voucher? Until then go back, sit down and wait patiently

So by not delivering a product you win the argument?

Why the hell were they selling coupons for a product they don't even make?! Is this some kind of trademark rent we're not aware of?

This was fraud plain and simple. Money in, debt out.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 358 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 03-Oct-2003 22:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 121 (Mikey C):
>That`s the problem I see no bad news
>
>Only those who want to see bad news will
>
>Mikey C

Wow.

Quite a philosophy you have there Mikey C.

Quite simply, wow.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 359 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by acg on 03-Oct-2003 23:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 276 (Matt Parsons):
I completely agree with you...I have heard of AROS, at one time I thought they
would come out with a complete product. the last i saw of them they still had
some issues in terms of not having a lot of modern features of an OS, but I could be very wrong.

I would love to see AROS demonstrated on different architectures. If it is as good as you imply it, I would like to see old Amiga apps run on it....
that would be very cool.

Could you set up a demonstration somewhere at one of the shows??
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 360 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by - on 03-Oct-2003 23:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 236 (Amon_Re):
"If Genesi were selling MOS as AOS4, and Hyperion AOS4 as MOS, then i'd prefered MOS, because, well, i prefer it. Do you get it now?"


I would like to know why? This is not trolling but a real question. As a long time Amiga user but still rather a computer novice, I would like to be persuaded one way or the other with the facts. I realize the world is not all one color and am not trying to push one platform or the other. I am actually more interested in the applications that will run on each system than the OS. An OS has never performed a task for me. So why is an important question to me.
Some additional questions I have:

The Artica chip, is it buggy or not?
Does MorphOS contain stolen code?
What is a realistic time frame for the release of OS4?
Will DCE be involved in any repair and warranty of PEG's?
What is the up to date driver status of each?
ie: Graphic cards supported, Firewire, USBII, Audio Cards, Ethernet ect..
On board as well as add on cards
Would a demise of AI end future development of AOS ie. 5.0?
What is the future direction of each platform?
As they both seem to strive to be OS3.9 compatible when can one expect a divergence to occur?

I am not interested in "don't trust AI they are crooks" or "don't trust bbv as he is satan" kind of replies. I have seen the "court docs" and while interesting they do not reveal anything about the system or OS.

I am sorry to ask but most of the sites I search do not seem to have up to date info or are out right spin. Just a point in the right direction would be helpful

Thanks
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 361 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Rich Woods on 03-Oct-2003 23:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 360 (-):
Wow! A post with someone actually asking for specific and credible information.

How nice to see!
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 362 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 04-Oct-2003 00:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 236 (Amon_Re):
>If Genesi were selling MOS as AOS4, and Hyperion AOS4 as MOS, then i'd prefered MOS, because, well, i prefer it. Do you get it now?

That may be put to the test in the near future
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 363 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 04-Oct-2003 00:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 360 (-):
It's late, I'm tired, but I'll try answering as the best I can:

>The Artica chip, is it buggy or not?

Bill Buck explains it best here:
http://flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/85760.shtml
This also gives you a timeline of events, always critical to understanding the current situation.

>Does MorphOS contain stolen code?

Ralph Schmidt explains it better than I could:
http://amiga.emugaming.com/morphoscritics.html

>What is a realistic time frame for the release of OS4?

No idea, I work for Genesi, not Hyperion.

>Will DCE be involved in any repair and warranty of PEG's?

I do not know this, I'm not involved in this end of things.

>What is the up to date driver status of each?

For MorphOS:
http://www.morphos.net/morphos_graphics.php
and
http://www.morphos.net/morphos_hardware.php

>Would a demise of AI end future development of AOS ie. 5.0?

Depends on who buys them I would imagine.

>What is the future direction of each platform?

That is best left to executives and developers to explain, not for lowly web-jockey's like myself. bbrv? Mr. Hermans?

>As they both seem to strive to be OS3.9 compatible when can one expect a divergence to occur?

Depends on what you mean by diverge. Technically, they have been diverged since the way one chose CyberGraphX as it's core video design and the other Picasso96. The level of divergence is expected to grow over time, of course.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 364 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by - on 04-Oct-2003 03:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 363 (Nate Downes):
I appreciate your effort. I have viewed some of the material before but some is new to me.

Still unsure of the problema of the Artica chipset but the timeline is informative!
I feel, after viewing both sides including Dave Haynie's arguments, the argument that MorphOS is based on stolen code is rather weak and therefore irrevelent to me.
I would like someone to address the DCE repair issue as DCE did/does have a rather poor reputation. Once bitten twice shy.
I see, while not exactly cutting edge, the drivers ect.. for the Peg system seem to be advancing well. Has the problem of the IDE isssue been resolved?
What about firewire support, is it fixed?
My question on divergence should have been, when will the two systems no longer support legacy apps and no longer be semicompatible with each other? I an quite interested in future plans of each system. I understand this will be difficult as you only know half of the equation.
I would also like to ask about the PegII. When will specifications be published? When will it be demoed and where? Will MorphOS,latest version, run on a classic Amiga?
I thank you once again for your flame free responce and am also looking forward to an Amiga reply.

BTW I think the SuperBundle is a great idea!
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 365 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Oct-2003 05:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 352 (T_Bone):
It's obvious they are trying to stall things as much as possible, why? Probably because they lack the cash

Cheers
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 366 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Oct-2003 05:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 360 (-):
Because AOS4 (as is done by Hyperion) is more like a direct descendant of AOS as it is now, it's not something a 'clone', MOS might have a simular/compatable API & look, but internally it is quite different from AOS, MOS might develop into something very cool in the future, but as it is now it just doesn't appeal to me.

It's just a personal taste.

As for the other questions, here goes:

"The Artica chip, is it buggy or not?"

It's still unproven, Genesi claim it's buggy, Eyetech claims it isn't. All the people saying it is buggy sofar have been unwilling to specify the bugs by hiding under the "I'm not authorised to tell" ambrella.

I personally think it's not buggy, the VIA chips however are crap and a source of stress on any platform (Just look at the past on x86)

"Does MorphOS contain stolen code?"

I don't know, i'd hope not :)

"What is a realistic time frame for the release of OS4?"

Ask Hyperion, it's their project, their slogan is "when it's done" :)

"Will DCE be involved in any repair and warranty of PEG's?"

I don't know again, ask BBRV, i'm sure he would be willing to reply to you about this

"What is the up to date driver status of each?
ie: Graphic cards supported, Firewire, USBII, Audio Cards, Ethernet ect..
On board as well as add on cards"

Most things already work under LinuxPPC, however, driver status for both AOS & MOS is more limited atm

"Would a demise of AI end future development of AOS ie. 5.0?"

According to Hyperion, no, according to some people who've not seen the contract, yes.

I'm more inclined to believe Hyperion in this matter

"What is the future direction of each platform?"

AOS4 will evolve, direction might depend on wether or not Ainc stays arround.
Hyperion would try & lift AOS into the modern days either way.
Ainc want AOS5 to be multiplatform

I have no clue where MOS is heading.

"As they both seem to strive to be OS3.9 compatible when can one expect a divergence to occur? "

AOS4 & MOS both feature extentions to the OS3.9 API that are unique to eighter system (wich i don't like really, MOS should strive AOS compability & not expand the API's present in AOS, they should develop their own API's, let me know if they already are doing so)

Cheers
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 367 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Oct-2003 05:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 362 (strobe):
What? They'll switch names? ;)

Cheers
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 368 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 04-Oct-2003 06:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 121 (Mikey C):
@Mikey_C

> That`s the problem I see no bad news
>
> Only those who want to see bad news will

LOL!

Large flightless bird... black and white plumage... lives in Africa...

'nuff said.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 369 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by ChickTunt on 04-Oct-2003 07:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 368 (Bill Hoggett):
Actually, I delivered to an Ostrich farm yesterday. Had some nice info boards up to read.

Ostriches DO NOT bury their heads in the sand... Thats a common misconception.
They are merely checking their eggs (The male does this for the female too).
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 370 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Oct-2003 07:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 305 (Gabriele Favrin):
"Personally, I'm studying RSS stuff right now and will
develop some tools in the next future,"

For AOS 4 ?

If you are the expert, it is up to you to code a reader.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 371 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 04-Oct-2003 08:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 353 (pebbles):
Well, what can I say, that never happened to me, but if it happened I would just ignore, it's not like I have the need to talk to someone from either side of the camps...
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 372 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by smp266 on 04-Oct-2003 09:33 GMT
[I have no clue where MOS is heading.]
Are you fud-ing or what? A quick check of their website will give you and idea.
Apps is there next priority, I believe.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 373 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 04-Oct-2003 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 366 (Amon_Re):
Oh Amon Amon
---------
"Does MorphOS contain stolen code?"
I don't know, i'd hope not :)
---------
That can be also:
"Does Aos4 contain AROS code?"

---------
"What is a realistic time frame for the release of OS4?"
Ask Hyperion, it's their project, their slogan is "when it's done" :)
---------
Nono "In two months" (Ben Hermann november 2001)
"We need just 2-3 months to test the integration of components" (B.H. June 2002)

I have to continue Amon, or you will stop telling us FALSE things.

---------
"Would a demise of AI end future development of AOS ie. 5.0?"
According to Hyperion, no, according to some people who've not seen the contract, yes.
I'm more inclined to believe Hyperion in this matter.
---------
I'm really sorry for you AMon, but you will receive SOON some good news about this strong contract from all creditors of AMigaInc (ask you why Ben stay in a corner during this weeks, and remember that "I heard from Bill that there is no problem at AMigaINC" (Ben Hermann July 2003)

---------
AOS4 will evolve, direction might depend on wether or not Ainc stays arround.
Hyperion would try & lift AOS into the modern days either way.
Ainc want AOS5 to be multiplatform.
---------
How can you talk of AOs5 when AOs4 is FAR from be released?!?!
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 374 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 04-Oct-2003 09:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 353 (pebbles):
"' When I hear all this exodus crap'

i can confirm that this goes on and happens. when i joined amiga-org and amigaworld-net i recieved a bunch of email at amiga-org from people that belong
to both places telling me they look forward to talking to me, but only if i only
post on amigaworld-net because they dont like amiga-org.

i think the last one still in my inbox is from 'ikir' (i think thats his name) you can ask the webmaster at amiga-org if its true. i give my permission to look at the email."

It seems the red side is so afraid of a blue side "conspiracy", that they organized themselves against a nonexistent enemy. Accusing the so called "blue side" being organized, manipulated, and a little army of Bill Buck.

Man, how pathetic...
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 375 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 04-Oct-2003 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 374 (Emeric SH):
That happens when reality and wet dreams get badly mixed up..
At some point that turns to sickness when people began living on
their dreams and starts to ignore real world around them.

In the end.. sad, but what can one do? When computer (or name, in this
case) becomes religion and religion becomes computer there ain't much
for other to do for helping such poor people.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 376 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by - on 04-Oct-2003 11:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 366 (Amon_Re):
>Because AOS4 (as is done by Hyperion) is more like a direct descendant of AOS >as it is now, it's not something a 'clone', MOS might have a >simular/compatable API & look, but internally it is quite different from AOS, >MOS might develop into something very cool in the future, but as it is now it >just doesn't appeal to me.

Can you explain and elaborate? What makes one more a "clone" than the other? How are the two internally different?

Thanks a bunch

Stew
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 377 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 04-Oct-2003 11:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 374 (Emeric SH):
AFAIK ikir isn't even on the team, but I find it odd, only one person saying it, and now this exodus conspiracy it has to be taken for real? How many more times this had happened? Anyone else!?
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 378 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 04-Oct-2003 11:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 346 (Amon_Re):
> Why do you keep dragging Ben into this? Honestly, what's your point?

Looking at some of the paperwork filed initially by Amiga Inc in reference to the Genesi's law suit, I highly doubt McEwen wrote those papers by himself. I'm guessing Ben is at the heart of writing those initial replies until McEwen was forced to have legal counsel to represent Amiga Inc in Federal Court.

Dammy
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 379 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 04-Oct-2003 12:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 364 (-):
>My question on divergence should have been, when will the two systems no longer
>support legacy apps and no longer be semicompatible with each other? I an quite
>interested in future plans of each system. I understand this will be difficult
>as you only know half of the equation.

I know that MorphOS was designed from the onset to be able to keep this legacy support without compromizing the final design. (the often misunderstood ABox/QBox division)

>I would also like to ask about the PegII. When will specifications be
>published? When will it be demoed and where? Will MorphOS,latest version, run
>on a classic Amiga?

October 15th is it's unveiling from the last announcement by bbrv found here:
http://www.morphos-news.de/index.php?lg=en&nid=461&si=1

I am not in charge of the show schedule, so I would not know where and when it will be demonstrated. But you can see the scheduled and previous shows at:
http://www.morphos.net/community.php

There is a classic Amiga version of MorphOS in internal betatesting, and bbrv has mentioned a version for the classic Amiga in the past. There was a request for input on this found in this announcement from May:
http://www.phinixi.com/tiki-print_article.php?articleId=24

>I thank you once again for your flame free responce and am also looking forward
>to an Amiga reply.

>BTW I think the SuperBundle is a great idea!

Thanks!
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 380 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Oct-2003 12:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 376 (-):
"Can you explain and elaborate? What makes one more a "clone" than the other? How are the two internally different?"

That's simple enough. AOS4 is an update of the existing AOS 3 code, with plenty of changes but all based on full access to the old code. MOS is written from scratch to behave and look like AmigaOS.

Some people will prefer the former because the original code is a stable, established foundation; others like the idea of throwing everything away and starting afresh. This is related to the arguments about compatability versus throwing away all the current software and coding all new programs.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 381 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 04-Oct-2003 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 380 (Don Cox):
Actually, from discussions with Ben Hermans and statements made by the Frieden bros., AOS4 is not some kind of evolution of the OS 3 code, but a total rewrite much the same as MorphOS. The only difference is one group had access to the original source code, the other doesn't.

This, BTW, is probably the only way Hyperion can save their OS from becoming an asset to be auctioned off by any liquidators of AInc. If they used the original source code in the final product, their work would be considered copyright Amiga, Inc and could be auctioned off. If, instead, it was a derivitive work, and all Hyperion purchased was the right to study the code, not use it, then the work is a unique work of Hyperion, and not subject to be liquidated. Having met Ben H., I know he's a smart man. If I were in his shoes, I would have done just such a condition in order to protect my investment.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 382 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Oct-2003 13:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 381 (Nate Downes):
"Actually, from discussions with Ben Hermans and statements made by the Frieden bros., AOS4 is not some kind of evolution of the OS 3 code, but a total rewrite much the same as MorphOS. The only difference is one group had access to the original source code, the other doesn't."

I think some parts are heavily rewritten, but there is plenty that is not much more than a recompile, or even still running in 68k (Arexx). The parts that have had more work would loom larger in their minds.

Consider dos.library. Colin slogged through that modernising all of it, but I'm sure for each function he started by studying the existing code closely, and where possible used it. The advantage is that the bug fixes and comments in the code give warning of what goes wrong. A task always seems simpler when you start coding that it turns out to be after beta testing.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 383 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by - on 04-Oct-2003 13:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 380 (Don Cox):
"That's simple enough. AOS4 is an update of the existing AOS 3 code, with plenty of changes but all based on full access to the old code. MOS is written from scratch to behave and look like AmigaOS. "


I don't understand this argument. I am no computer genius so please bear with me. If AOS has to be completely rewritten to migrate from 68xxx to PPC and needs emulation to run legacy apps how is this so different from the MOS development? The techno language used on many of the sites reminds me of a lawyers "legalese", and I understand but just a little of it. The question for me on this issue is: how would the access to the original source code make any difference to me the average potential customer? Why would it matter or influence my decision of which to purchase?

Thanks you for your time and patience
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 384 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by - on 04-Oct-2003 14:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 360 (-):
Could someone spin these questions off to another thread. I am not sure how to do it. I don't want to violate any posting rules. I am sorry to have gotton off topic.


Thanks
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 385 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 04-Oct-2003 15:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 384 (-):
Already done :D
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 386 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 00:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 364 (-):
>I feel, after viewing both sides including Dave Haynie's arguments,
>the argument that MorphOS is based on stolen code is rather weak
>and therefore irrevelent to me.

After discovering the following the other day, and forwarding it to Amiga, I don't feel it is weak at all. I feel it bears further investigation. The following quote from a Genesi employee seems to be a blatant admission that they are using Amiga's intellectual property.

I would have never found this, probably, had the same Genesi employee not emailed me after seeing comments of mine on OSNews.com about my own 64-Bit OS, and extending the kind offer that I could email him if I ever needed a 'dedicated system design' for my OS. Of course I don't need one, because I already have one, but now I wonder just what that system design would have really been (i.e., Amiga source stuff?). I went searching around to find out more about who he was--I remembered seeing posts from him on Moobunny--and that's how I came upon the following. I didn't know until this that he worked for Genesi, even. People do get around :) I didn't know until today that Randy Hughes of Amiga worked for QNX. Small world we live in. But this isn't Mr. Roger's Neighborhood here:

QUOTED (From Nathaniel Downes, Posted on 2003-06-20 18:40:32 on OSNews.com)
"I work for Genesi, so I've had access to developing on MorphOS for a little while now. It's API's are the AmigaOS's API's for the most part, altho with a lot of improvements. Being a cloned API system, it follows the published docs, which means unpublished tricks used in some old demo programs won't work."

QUOTED (From Nathaniel Dowes, Posted on 2003-06-20 22:10:43 on OSNews.com)
"Other than some corrective measures to eliminate known bugs, there's nothing one would see from the API's that would be different from the old Amiga API's."

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=3848

--EyeAm
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 387 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 05-Oct-2003 00:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 386 (EyeAm):
API := source
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 388 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by - on 05-Oct-2003 01:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 386 (EyeAm):
Like I said it looks weak to me. We will have to wait for Nate to clarify exactly what he meant.

"It's API's are the AmigaOS's API's for the most part" Does this mean an end user will not tell the difference or are they a direct rip off.

"Being a cloned API system, it follows the published docs, which means unpublished tricks used in some old demo programs won't work." Sounds less like a direct rip off and more like reverse eng.

"Other than some corrective measures to eliminate known bugs, there's nothing one would see from the API's that would be different from the old Amiga API's."
Sound like someone "bragging" at how good a clone job they had done, but it could be a veiled reference to a copyright infringement type of action.

I am no expert and not sure about any of it but it looks far from certain to me. I will wait for Nate to explain himself.


Just for thought: I am sure if Amiga Inc. wanted to pursue this they could. I know they have limited funds, but there is a large group, that if convinced the case is a slam dunk, would back Amiga Inc..
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 389 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith on 05-Oct-2003 03:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 386 (EyeAm):
@EyeAm:

Sorry, but Nate wasn't confessing to anything heinous. An API is just a set of definitions of how to call functions, not the functions themselves. I could create an amigaOS 3.x compatible API just by looking at the includes and autodocs. The way to do it is to make sure the functions have the same names and take the same parameters, and to make sure that they work the same way. It's similar to the way Linux has the same APIs as Unix, but Linus never got to look at the Unix source code.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 390 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 04:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 389 (CodeSmith):
>Sorry, but Nate wasn't confessing to anything heinous. An API is just a set
>of definitions of how to call functions, not the functions themselves.

Yes, I know what an API is. :)

So, with MorphOS having essentially the same APIs as AmigaOS, the former must surely also have the same functions as the latter. And just where did they get those?

>I could create an amigaOS 3.x compatible API just by looking at the
>includes and autodocs.

So what you're saying there, basically, is that MorphOS was backward-engineered by using Amiga OS?

>The way to do it is to make sure the functions have the
>same names and take the same parameters, and to make sure that they work
>the same way.

Same, same, same. (or is that shame?) :)

You know, in the music industry, they take people to court for 'sound-a-like' songs. And when the songs are too much alike--as in the case of Alice Cooper suing KISS for a song off "Psycho Circus", which was too close to Cooper's "Eighteen"--those who made the copy...lose (KISS lost, and had to pay Alice).

I see this the same way. From all of the descriptions I've read, it sure sounds like Genesi is essentially marketing an Amiga OS. To whom else is it really valuable, but the Amiga community?

I know 'Workbench' is being used there. That's Amiga property. There is also a WBStartup (I saw it in the screenshots). That's Amiga's, too.

>It's similar to the way Linux has the same APIs as Unix,
>but Linus never got to look at the Unix source code.

I hope Amiga sues for the entire MorphOS product. Then it'll have two--and money.

--EyeAm
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 391 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 05-Oct-2003 04:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 388 (-):
> "Being a cloned API system, it follows the published docs, which means
> unpublished tricks used in some old demo programs won't work." Sounds less like
> a direct rip off and more like reverse eng.

Sounds nothing like using original source at *all*. If the original source were used, undocumented and unpublished tricks would have been there, even without knowing it.

From everything I've heard virtually none of the undocumented stuff works, and everyone who's tried to "poke" at the undocumented stuff has been convinced that this is indeed written from scratch, as nothing seems to have "snuck" in.

Anyways, considering the state of the source, and the fact it had to be ported as well, having the source isn't even all that desireable, I mean, it's not like you could just recompile it.

It's a rather thin arguement, especially since AOS API's have been reimplemented all over the place. Reverse engineering AmigaOS has been going on for almost 20 years now. Virtually every OS in existance has had someone come by and reimplement it's API's somewhere else, even new OS'es. Why would one that's been around almost 2 decades be so hard to believe?
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 392 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 05-Oct-2003 04:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 390 (EyeAm):
> So what you're saying there, basically, is that MorphOS was backward-engineered
> by using Amiga OS?

That's perfectly legal, you know.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 393 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 04:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 391 (T_Bone):
>If the original source were used, undocumented and unpublished tricks
>would have been there, even without knowing it.

On the *PPC* MorphOS, compared to the *68k* Amiga OS? Seems like such things would either be rendered out of the OS through rewriting, or at the very least made ineffectual by the final form.

--EyeAm
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 394 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 05-Oct-2003 05:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 393 (EyeAm):
> On the *PPC* MorphOS, compared to the *68k* Amiga OS? Seems like such things
> would either be rendered out of the OS through rewriting, or at the very least
> made ineffectual by the final form.

Why would you intentionally remove these undocumented API's when you're rewriting the code? Isn't the whole point of "stealing code" to make the final form more compatible? So why would you remove API's that break programs that depend on these undocumented features? It doesn't make sense.

That's like stealing the answers to a test, and then getting all the answers wrong on purpose so nobody will suspect you're cheating. What's the point?
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 395 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 05:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 392 (T_Bone):
Good, I may just apply that to my OS, then :)

--EyeAm
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 396 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 05:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 394 (T_Bone):
Thank you :)
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 397 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 05-Oct-2003 05:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 395 (EyeAm):
> Good, I may just apply that to my OS, then :)

Or you could grab some Aros sources :) Join the Aros team why don't you?
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 398 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 05:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 397 (T_Bone):
What AROS is writing is technically incompatible with what I'm doing.

But I'd love to see AROS and Amiga work together, and bring in the guy who wrote Amithlon. I have this dream of Amiga OS on a top of the line Abit motherboard, with an AMD64 on it, and flawlessly executing classic Amiga 32-Bit code within the new OS, for full backward compatability. Of course, my dream also has Dave Haynie as head of engineering at Amiga, and Carl Sassenrath also an employee--with REBOL on Amiga OS--and other past Amiga luminaries there.

I think some people would still work for Amiga, even without pay, if they could get a small percentage of royalties for their work when the OS is sold.

--EyeAm
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 399 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 05-Oct-2003 05:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 398 (EyeAm):
> What AROS is writing is technically incompatible with what I'm doing.

Fork it.
Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit - Judge Lasnik Grants Leave For Amiga's Former Attorneys : Comment 400 of 427ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 05-Oct-2003 07:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 399 (T_Bone):
More on topic: What was it that should have occurred October 2nd and 3rd? I can't find where I saw those two dates mentioned. It was some kind of court deadline or meeting. I seem to recall one for November, too.

--EyeAm
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