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[News] PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology"ANN.lu
Posted on 13-Oct-2003 18:02 GMT by Christian Kemp46 comments
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There is now a PegXLin entry at the IBM Global Solutions Directory. PegXLin is a one CD installed image of Debian/Sarge for the PegasosPPC. It uses part of the Debian/Sarge installer, but then uses an installer script that copies the PegXLin pre-installed image to the disk.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 1 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Joël EHRET on 13-Oct-2003 16:15 GMT
GREAT!!! :)

now openBSD and the circle will be circled :)
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 2 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Oct-2003 16:15 GMT
Whoupdy Shit!
and since when is a Pegasos not PPC?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 3 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 13-Oct-2003 17:08 GMT
Yes and you think any one look in that place at all, except the we how knows about it, any one can add things there.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 4 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 13-Oct-2003 17:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
Right! ;-)

So, you try it.

And, anyway you have to start at this level to get to the next one, and the one after...

R&B
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 5 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by corpse on 13-Oct-2003 18:06 GMT
"PegXLin is a one CD installed image of Debian/Sarge for the PegasosPPC. It uses part of the Debian/Sarge installer, but then uses an installer script that copies the PegXLin pre-installed image to the disk."

eh,ugh, WTF is the point? why don't you just install Debian yourself .. How in hell can you hope to use Debian if you're too stupid to even install it ;).
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 6 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 13-Oct-2003 18:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (corpse):
LOL!

I've wondered about that myself, i always do minimal installs on my systems & then build up from that, i like control over the installation process.

Not meaning to sound disrespectfull to the guys that did this distro, i'm sure there are people who prefer such a thing.

What i don't understand is why even bother submitting a Linux distro to the IBM directory, there are so many distro's out there, if everyone were to submit their distro's (for PPC, eg Nubus PPC distro's) that thing would be flooded.

Submitting things that are unique etc sure, but linux distro's?

Cheers
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 7 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 13-Oct-2003 18:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Amon_Re):
It does not appear to be "Ready For IBM Technology" or whatever scheme marked
it is just a solutions entry.

Why not, if they have the facility to advertise their spin on a distribution as
a solution what is the harm in that?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 8 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 13-Oct-2003 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (DaveP):
No harm, just seems pointless to me.

Cheers
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 9 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 13-Oct-2003 19:35 GMT
I must admit this isn't how I would have chosen to distribute my resources. Rather than a Pegasos specific Linux distro I think it would have been wiser to work to integrate Pegasos hardware support into the mainstream PPC Linux distros (Debian, Yellow Dog, SuSE and Mandrake) With new SuSE and Mandrake distros just round the corner, I think it would have been better to work with them rather than produce something entirely insular and separate.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 10 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 13-Oct-2003 19:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
You're right from one perspective, but it might make sense if it's not too much effort, as an intermediate step. /i.e./ make up your own distribution while working on integration with "standard" distributions; as you have all the resources under your own control, the former should take a lot less time than the latter.

And, as others have pointed out, trumpet your tangible achievements, however trivial they might appear to some.

Gregg
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 11 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Oct-2003 19:55 GMT
Can this thing run FreeBSD?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 12 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 13-Oct-2003 20:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
Bill: At least Debian is going to have full Pegasos support on next
major release (December?).. Genesi has done a lot dev seeding and
results will be for all to see. Couple *BSDs, QNX, multiple Linuxes
and others. Personally I'm not going to need them all, but I prefer to
have a system with options. :)
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 13 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 13-Oct-2003 20:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
> Yes and you think any one look in that place at all

Isn't the point that you could place an IBM logo on it, and not the directory listing itself? Good for marketing!
:-)
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 14 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 13-Oct-2003 21:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (corpse):
> eh,ugh, WTF is the point? why don't you just install Debian yourself .. How
> in hell can you hope to use Debian if you're too stupid to even install
> it ;).

This is a fast and very easy way to set up a linux system. There are allready other options too, and AFAIK there will be even more in a short time!
:-)

When it comes to Linux beginners, I think the barrier to get going is a two step one. First you have to set up the system properly and get it working, then you have to learn how it works. You have to know how to install it and set it up before you can even start learning how to use it. Unfortunately, I have not yet downloaded and tried PegXLin yet, but it seems to me that allmost everyone should be able to install this, thus lowering the otherwise quite high barrier for beginners.

Hmm, why not several different pre-configured PegXLin versions in the future, one for general desktop use, one for various server use, etc? Perhaps there are people out there who wants to get some kind of server/router/firewall going, and just don't give a sh!t about what technology is used under the hood, as long as it does the job? Well, just insert the CD, and choose from a menue the features you want, and then it just works. Just a thought ...
;-)
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 15 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 13-Oct-2003 21:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Bill Hoggett):
@ Bill Hoggett

Why not have it all? It seems that we will! :-)

I am a big fan of Gentoo myself. But the idea and possibilities with PegXLin is kind of cool anyway IMO! I like options!
:-)
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 16 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Oct-2003 01:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (takemehomegrandma):
Isn't this devalueing the IBM mark?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 17 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Sven Luther on 14-Oct-2003 04:29 GMT
Hello,

First, let's look at the different other things that are "Ready for IBM". Among those you will find hardware solutions as well as compilers suite or other software solutions. There is an entry about NetBSD and other OSes or Development environment. So, having a linux distribution "Ready for IBM" doesn't sound all that bad. Genesi now has, if i am not wrong, three pieces of technology "Ready for IBM" : The Pegasos Motherboard (which uses IBM processors), MorphOS (which runs on Pegasos) and our Linux solution (PegXLin, but also Debian Woody).

Second, about why PegXLin and not a more popular distro. I urge you all to have a look at http://linux.pegasosppc.com to get some idea of the current status of Linux support on the Pegasos. Among the distributions, it has been Debian which has been choosen, not only because i am a debian developer, but also because it is the distribution with the oldest ppc history, with an ephasis on multiple architecture support (we support m68k and s390 for example), and a distribution of indeniable quality and widespread recognition. Genesi has been present at three Debian events lately, it was represented at the debian boot of LinuxTag, at the Debconf 3 in Oslo, and at the debian-installer mini-debcamp in Oldenburg.

It is true that support for other distros would have been nice too, but there is a certain amount of work needed for it, mainly to get the early installation working. As such, we have support for debian/woody and Gentoo, with Debian/Sarge one the way. Mandrake can be installed thanks to the image installer from Christian Geier and Michael Heide. And this make me come to PegXLin. PegXLin is in truth a pre-installed Debian/Sarge-Sid image. As such it offers a quick and hassle installation, and is ideal for having people not familiar with linux discover it. Additionnally, it allows people to experiment things not found in the released debian version (woody) without the hassle of a over the line upgrade, like XFree 4.3.0 support for example. I Personally prefer a true installer and am working to make sure Debian/Sarge, once it is released, will support the Pegasos I and II out of the box, and once that happens, there is no doubt that Debian/Sarge will be marked as "Ready for IBM" too.

One last thing for corpse: you said : "How in hell can you hope to use Debian if you're too stupid to even install it ". And i suppose nobody uses Knoppix or its many derivative, and you never heard of Lindows, or Linex with its over 100 000 debian installed system in spanish extremadura. Nor of Skolelinux which is taking over Norvegian schools, or the big interest in debian that you can find from the Brasilian governement, Brasil, which will host nexts year debian conference.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 18 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 14-Oct-2003 05:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (takemehomegrandma):
From what I can gather being approved to use the "Ready for IBM Technology" mark only
allows you to use one specific group of logos ( of which there is only one available
if I am remembering this correct ) and not any old IBM logo.

Just to be clear.

However, given there is no joint press release yet and no entry for Genesi alongside Mai
in the Ready For IBM technology pages we are a few days short of being able to use
that logo willy-nilly it seems.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 19 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Oct-2003 06:22 GMT
Tried to click on the link, and I get this:

Error 500
HTTP Web Server: Lotus Notes Exception - Special database object cannot be located

Ummm... what gives?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 20 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 14-Oct-2003 07:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
That is because someone keeps giving out the administrator link, which is not
guaranteed to be reusable.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 21 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 14-Oct-2003 08:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (DaveP):
Try this:

http://www.developer.ibm.com/solutions/isv/igssg.nsf/Searchgui?OpenForm

Select "Start Search"
Then enter: PegasosPPC
PegXLin will be indicated

You can also enter MorphOS.

Dave, this is both an administrative and validation procedure. Our azimuth leads to a destination. We are not there yet. Soon you will see Genesi become "Advanced" in its membership level. When this happens you and others will understand the final destination of Genesi in the Global Solutions Directory was a bit more than just a "willy nilly" effort. Step by step.

Thanks Sven for the great post. Knowledge and the ability to express it has a way of overcoming opinions to the contrary. We are very pleased to have someone with your stature in the international linux community involved in Genesi and the Pegasos. :-D

R&B
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 22 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by DET Nicolas on 14-Oct-2003 08:32 GMT
Hi !

Sven, about linux.pegasosppc.com. It would be cool to put all the file ressources (kernel image, kernel sources, image installer, ISO ...) downloadable freely (not need to register).

The register users could have the ability to write article for example.

Bye
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 23 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 14-Oct-2003 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (bbrv):
> Dave, this is both an administrative and validation procedure.

Not at odds with what I have said at all.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 24 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 14-Oct-2003 10:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
Well, they're using Notes. What do you expect... :-P
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 25 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 14-Oct-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Bill Hoggett):
New support site for PegXLin here:

http://linux.pegasosppc.com/pegxlin/
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 26 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by IamCleverToo on 14-Oct-2003 13:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
@Anonymous (209.234.157.45)

"Isn't this devalueing the IBM mark?"

Who cares? Look at how McBill and Fleecy have devalued the Amiga trademarks. Its totally worthless now! Maybe only 2000 or LESS people care about it now. Its meaningless.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 27 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by IamCleverToo on 14-Oct-2003 13:14 GMT
@DaveP

How has Genesi and the Pegasos system "wronged" you? It would seem you are always on the case of both subjects. Any specific reasons?

Since you appear to be an amigaInc supporter, do you plan to bail them out of their financial problems? They sure could use your help.

So maybe instead of questioning Genesi, you would be better off working witrh AmigaInc to make their stock worth more.

Or you could join Genesi and make the Pegasos better.

Will you choose? Or both? :-)

thank you and have a nice day! :-)
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 28 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 14-Oct-2003 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (IamCleverToo):
> How has Genesi and the Pegasos system "wronged" you? It would seem you are always on the case of both subjects. Any specific reasons?

How am I on their case? If pointing out an innaccuracy/misunderstanding and explaining why a web problem occurs is seen as being on the case so sue me.

> Since you appear to be an amigaInc supporter,

"supporter" totally exaggerates the way I feel about the issue. ;-)

> do you plan to bail them out of their financial problems?

What I plan to do is something I'm afraid I cannot share with you, or on a public forum.

> They sure could use your help.

I'm not sure they do.

> So maybe instead of questioning Genesi,

I didn't realise it was such a touchy activity or that Genesi was so sensitive. Usually Bill is efficient and robust in his answers. I will of course take a re-look at what I have been writing to check that it is not in any way offensive.

> you would be better off working witrh AmigaInc to make their stock worth more.

Do they have stock? :-D

> Or you could join Genesi and make the Pegasos better.
> Will you choose? Or both? :-)

I don't see them as mutually exclusive activities.

Regards

Dave.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 29 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Oct-2003 13:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (IamCleverToo):
Then why are you here and not on some mos only site ?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 30 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 14-Oct-2003 13:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (takemehomegrandma):
Frankly, i fail to see why beginners struggle with Linux, even on PPC, yes, there is a learning curve, but anyone capable of reading should be able to figure it out.

The biggest problem is that more & more people are allergic to howto's & other resources it seems

Cheers
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 31 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 14-Oct-2003 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Amon_Re):
I think the biggest barrier and struggle for Linux beginners is to actually become Linux beginners in the first place.

I don't know to what extent PegXLin remedies this (partitioning, multi-boot systems, bootloaders, hardware configuration and whatnot that comes with doing a fresh installation), but it seems to be an attempt in that direction.

OTOH I never thought choosing packages (or preselected sets of packages, like "workstation", "server", "personal desktop" et c.) would be considered to be such a hassle for beginners once they've decided to try out Linux.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 32 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by corpse on 14-Oct-2003 16:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Amon_Re):
" The biggest problem is that more & more people are allergic to howto's & other resources it seems"

The problem is way too many people think "This Linux/FreeBSD/Etc shit sounds so l33t, I can make out I'm better than everyone else if I run it" without any real purpose for doing so, Then they install some half-arsed distro like Mandrake and bitch on IRC about things not working without reading any of the documentation.

If you want something that works like windows but isn't windows .. get a mac.

Grr!
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 33 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 14-Oct-2003 17:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (corpse):
@corpse

Mandrake works fine here, and doesn't seem "half-arsed" at all. Most of the things I can't do with it yet are down to my own ignorance and/or lazyness, not down to Linux.

One of the usual problems Linux has is that people switching to it (or trying it) come from being users of other operating systems. As such, they already have prejudices and expect everything to work as it did on their old system, only better. If people were willing to give it as much time and patience as they gave their first OS, then there would be fewer complaints.

Having said that, finding out how to do basic things can be a pain sometimes, because most users and documentation assume you already know.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 34 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by IamCleverToo on 14-Oct-2003 17:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Anonymous):
@Anonymous (195.148.82.17)
In Reply to Comment 26:
"Then why are you here and not on some mos only site ?"

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

YOU ARE SO AFRAID TO USE YOUR NAME. AFRAID THAT SOMEONE WILL TRACK YOU DOWN SO YOU CHOOSE TO BE ANONYMOUS.


YOU ARE THE HATER!!!!

YOU ARE THE TROLL!!!

YOU HAVE THE PROBLEMS!!!!



GET LOST TROLL!!!!!!

YOU DON'T BELONG HERE!!!!!
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 35 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by IamCleverToo on 14-Oct-2003 18:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (IamCleverToo):
*cough cough* I meant to say "ARE YOU AFRAID TO USE YOU NAME CAUSE SOMEONE WILL FIND OUT WHO YOU REALLY ARE?"
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 36 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 14-Oct-2003 19:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Amon_Re):
>The biggest problem is that more & more people are allergic to howto's & other
>resources it seems

Why should anyone have to read a manual to use or install an operating system????? This is the kind of tunnel-vision (or is it elitism?) that makes Unix and its clones so difficult to install.

It took me 6 weeks to install Suse - even though my PC was 2 years old and by the most popular brand on the high street, it still didn't work out of the box with my mouse, graphics card, modem, or monitor. I had to edit various config files hidden away deep in obscure directories. The man pages are generally absymal for finding something out anyway. In the end, it still didn't work so I bought Mandrake - whose installer was incompatible with my CPU (their excuse), however with a fix it did seem to work, although it took further editing of the XF86Config file before X would display properly.

When are they going to make an installer that works?
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 37 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 14-Oct-2003 20:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (smithy):
@smithy

Let me guess: you have a Dell.

(Dell are known for doing screwy things to their hardware. Amithlon had the same problem initially and had to be patched before it would work with them.)

The moral of the story is that you get what you buy. If you go for a pre-built high-street "name" like Dell, you can expect it to work great with the operating system and software it comes with, but cause problems with anything Dell don't support themselves, If you're going to be adventurous and try various operating systems, you're better off building your own system from generic non-bastardised parts.

Mandrake works great here, and the installer is superb. The only thing I've had to touch with the text editor has been the XF86Config-4 file, and that's just because of how nVidia distribute their drivers.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 38 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 15-Oct-2003 00:07 GMT
Next up: GRILLED CHEESE SANDWITCH!

With crispy IBM processors...
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 39 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by smp266 on 15-Oct-2003 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Seehund):
That's true. If you don't have friends or relatives who use Linux it will take a great deal of dedication to learn.
Autobooting into a Windows/Mac environment has confused people.

"Happiness is a editable startup-sequence"
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 40 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 15-Oct-2003 07:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (smp266):
"Happiness is a editable startup-sequence"

For some, it is quite a bit different. My friends doing Image Installer - read about it at http://www.linux-dresden.de/projects.php and http://www.phinixi.com/~mheider/ - are going to be showing the Pegasos at LinuxInfoTag [http://www.linux-dresden.de/projects.php] and are about two revisions past the website description of Image Installer in a very short period. And PegXLin's [http://linux.pegasosppc.com/pegxlin/] author is similarly inclined :  }


<--greenboy---<<<<
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]
 
 
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 41 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 15-Oct-2003 12:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (smithy):
I disagree, you shouldn't attempt to install *anything* without atleast glimpsing through the manual (or README), also, the very nature of Linux is that it's *NOT* a desktop OS, it's not for n00bs to use that term.

The first time i installed linux was in '96 or so, and it was slackware 2.1, do you think i would've ventured with that without reading the howto's et al? Hell no

Even when i installed AOS3.9, i skipped through the readme files, to make sure i don't mess up.

Cheers
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 42 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 15-Oct-2003 12:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (smp266):
I disagree, all the info is 'out there', all that's needed is abit of patience & the ability to read.

Cheers
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 43 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 15-Oct-2003 18:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bill Hoggett

>Let me guess: you have a Dell.

No, a Packard Bell. Ok, they might not be the best selling PC brand, but they must be in the top 3. Anyway, my point was, that if Linux doesn't run on such popular hardware, then they have serious problems. I have just bought a new PC (another Pack Bell) so I now have the joys of trying to install Mandrake again! Even more outrageously, I'm going to give it its own hard drive so it doesn't mess up Windows.... I can just hear the installer making some serious trouble out of that!!!
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 44 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 15-Oct-2003 18:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Amon_Re):
>I disagree, you shouldn't attempt to install *anything* without atleast
>glimpsing through the manual (or README), also, the very nature of Linux is
>that it's *NOT* a desktop OS, it's not for n00bs to use that term.

But is being marketed and used by desktop OS users (whatever that/they are), and it is. If the competition (i.e. Windows) can manage to install itself without getting into a tizzy then Linux should too. It's not good enough to make excuses in the following vein:

Car company A: Our new car's doors all open without sticking!
Car company B: Our new car's doors open without sticking with certain people! But that's fine, because it's not a car for general road use, even though it is marketed as such. Oh, and before you adjust the rear-view mirror (assuming you can get into the car) be sure to read the useless man page that (might) tell you how to do it!
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 45 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 15-Oct-2003 19:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (smithy):
@smithy

If Packard Bell don't bother to submit their modifications from model to model, how can the Linuc developers know? Dell do the same. Dell and Packard Bell test to ensure that their bastardised systems work with Windows, even if that means submitting drivers. They don't test for Linux because they can't be bothered.

You get what you buy. Brand names that bastardise their hardware regularly and only support Windows will only be guaranteed to work with Windows.

BTW, I'm not at all sure I'd put Packard Bell in the "top" brands. I'd class them in the "cheap and nasty corner-cutting" category, brand or no brand. I'm constantly amazed how people assume that just because the brand is well known it somehow guarantees you get a quality product.
PegXLin now "Ready for IBM Technology" : Comment 46 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 16-Oct-2003 03:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Bill Hoggett):
Packard Bell stopped selling in the US I believe, they'd earned such a bad name.
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