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[Web] Pegasos-ItaliaANN.lu
Posted on 01-Nov-2003 18:05 GMT by Targhan181 comments
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For our Italian friends there is now Pegasos-Italia! http://www.pegasos-italia.com
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 151 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Nov-2003 04:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Eva):
Hello? Anyone home? Ever heard of the word "revision"?
How many revisions of Buster were there? Any idea?

(Hint, there were more revisions then you have fingers)

Cheers
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 152 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 04-Nov-2003 06:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 142 (Bill Hoggett):
So you don't trust anyone that uses jargon? ;-)
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 153 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 04-Nov-2003 06:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 149 (Amon_Re):
Posted by Amon_Re (Trusted user) on 04-Nov-2003 05:56:20
In Reply to Comment 141:
Eva,
You really are scared of Hyperion eh? Strange really, but oh well...
I don't know where your hatred comes from, but it's so petty it almost makes me feel sorry for your environment
------------------------

Please Amon make a technicall answer, not a useless one or a personal attack (just because you have no arguments).
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 154 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Nov-2003 07:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (James Carroll):
"Does the current most up to date linux kernal for A1 fix or at least go a long way towards fixing the problems mentioned here?"

You had best run the test outlined by bbrv yourself if you want to be sure.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 155 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 04-Nov-2003 08:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Eva):
Ben's post pretty much already explained what the issue's were Eva.

It's my understanding that the Articia allows both the PCI controller & the CPU to access memory, this is something that could pose problems if the drivers aren't aware of that (eg Linux drivers), as you could create a race condition, this is simular to the problem that MKLinux has/had on some PowerBooks, IIRC.

This isn't a bug, it's an implemention in the ArticiaS that aren't/weren't covered within the Linux drivers.

Ignorance has nothing to do with it, on eighter side.

Cheers
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 156 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 04-Nov-2003 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Eva):
"Please Amon make a technicall answer, not a useless one or a personal attack (just because you have no arguments)."

Just like... you're used to, only with some name calling!??
Don't be afraid, he's not even slightly near of your level.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 157 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 04-Nov-2003 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Amon_Re):
This isn't a bug, it's an implemention in the ArticiaS that aren't/weren't covered within the Linux drivers
_________

So it's a feature, right? :D
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 158 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 04-Nov-2003 08:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Amon_Re):
> This isn't a bug, it's an implemention in the ArticiaS that aren't/weren't covered> within the Linux drivers. And you are going to rewrite the Linux drivers? And why this is being worked out this late? Sorry but I'm not conviced.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 159 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 04-Nov-2003 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 158 (itix):
So?
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 160 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Nov-2003 12:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 159 (DaveP):
Seems Rockwell wasn't convinced anylonger too.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 161 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 04-Nov-2003 12:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (DaveP):
@DaveP

I don't trust anyone who uses marketing jargon, no. At least not unless they're willing to drop it when people say "pardon?".

Let's face it, phrases like "leveraging opportunities" score you big points if you're aiming to win one of the Gobbledeegook Awards.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 162 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 04-Nov-2003 13:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (Bill Hoggett):
@Bill

Oh I agree, but marketing-pukes and management-types use it as natural parts of speech these days, mores the pity.

Dave.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 163 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Amiga-One on 04-Nov-2003 18:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (bbrv):
Are you shure???????
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 164 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 06-Nov-2003 06:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (bbrv):
Now... where can I order those T-shirts?

(one can not deny that MorphOS is helping Amiga(Amiga like computer, community, the spirit) to come back in various ways, for example by putting more pressure towards AOS4 developers...)
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 165 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by amighista on 06-Nov-2003 16:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (bbrv):
@bbrv

Obviously you don't know italian legislation. Here any comparation between two different products (even if represented only by their trademark), is not unethical, but unlawful if the competitor is depicted in an unfair manner (as this seems the case). And Amiga inc. doesn't need at all to start a lawsuit, since it's a matter between vendors: any local amiga vendor (there are two here, and another one is coming) can easily ask the judge a mandate to remove that thing from pegasos-italia (for the anglo-saxon: italian judicial system is VERY VERY different from British/American ones and even from french and german ones, since we love to mixture ethics with law...;-)).

About "validation", you should be sincere with us (as it's unethical): you paid for that validation. IBM isn't a non profit or a governmental organization. Everything it does is for profit. About the numbers, one thing is sure: there are more than 1500 PPC board and for sure the A1 outnumber them.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 166 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 07-Nov-2003 00:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (amighista):
Mr. Amighista wrote:

Obviously you don't know italian legislation. Here any comparation between two different products (even if represented only by their trademark), is not unethical, but unlawful if the competitor is depicted in an unfair manner (as this seems the case).

Ahi, Ahi, Amighista... true but old...

Now with the new european legislation you can make advertising with comparison charts...

But only if they depicts things subjects to performances...
(i.e. performances of different computers)

and prices of different tariffs...
(like isp or phone services providers)

But your statment *!**fortunately**!* is still valid and true regarding logos.

In Italy is still strictly prohibited to comparate logos...

...and is also strictly prohibited to point the subject of an advertising champaign regarding matters of taste.

In facts an advertising like those of PepsiCola which depicts CocaCola as an "ancient" thing were modified:

For example:
In that old tv-spot of -"Feelings, nothing more than feelings"- in which the Coca Cola can which caused the singer to sing slow music instead of rock was canceled here in Italy and it was shown only *AND QUICKLY* a red can from distance...

or again for example: it was never shown the spot in which young archeologists from the future found a can of CocaCola asking themselves what it could be...

Or finally, to mention a canceled spot upon an action:
the authority which vigilates upon unfair competition canceled the advertising spot of the Omnitel-Vodaphone in which a dog pissed on a public phone cabin of Telecom, because it was obviously not related with the tariffs, and offensive regarding a competitor.

So I must warn you of Genesi that:

the logo with the broken Amiga ball from which come out a swarm of butterflies, is subject to restrictions of unfair competition by the law here in Italy.

A man who was warned, is a man potentially saved.

Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 167 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 07-Nov-2003 22:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (amighista):
>Obviously you don't know italian legislation. Here any
>comparation between two different products (even if

All italians laws are available on the net. Can you please
point us to the one you are refering? Thanks.

>(as this seems the case). And Amiga inc. doesn't need at all
>to start a lawsuit, since it's a matter between vendors: any
>local amiga vendor (there are two here, and another one is
>coming) can easily ask the judge a mandate to remove that

There are three right now: Amishop, Virtual Works and
Soft3. Neither of them will do anything to damage the
Amiga community, since they know how unpopular they could
become in the really shinked Amiga community. Also remember
that their business is selling stuff and if A1 will sink
they may switch to PegasOS market (well, some of them
already sell it) so why get enemies between your potential
customers?
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 168 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 08-Nov-2003 01:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Gabriele Favrin):
Mr. Gabriele Faverin wrote:

>All italians laws are available on the net.
>Can you please point us to the one you are refering?
>Thanks.

Off course.

As an italian you sure will known the site for the authority which grants upon competition and market:

www.agcm.it

Law regarding deceptive (fraud) or comparative advertising campaign is subject to law decree:

DL 25 gennaio 1992 n. 74.

you can found it at:

http://www.agcm.it/F.htm

(it is the first one into the section «Pubblicità ingannevole e comparativa»)

When highligted it will bring you to:

http://www.agcm.it/F8.htm

Link referring our situation is:

Art. 3 Bis

Condizioni di liceità della pubblicità comparativa

Conditions of lawfulness of comparative advertising

Points "E" and "F"

>d) non ingenera confusione sul mercato fra operatore pubblicitario
> ed un concorrente o tra i marchi, le denominazioni commerciali,
>altri segni distintivi, i beni o i servizi dell'operatore pubblicitario
>e quelli di un concorrente;

>e) non causa discredito o denigrazione di marchi,
>denominazioni commerciali, altri segni distintivi,
>beni, servizi, attività o circostanze di un concorrente;

To be brief for the rest of the world:

[AND PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR FOR ANY MISTAKE DONE IN TRANSLATE LEGAL TERMS]

d): the advertising must not generate any possible confusion in the presence into the market between the operator which hired the advertising campaign and between the competitor, or between trademarks, names and *DISTINCTIVE SIGNS*

e): the advertising must not cause discredit or denigrate other trademarks, commercial names or *DISTINCTIVE SIGNS*

----------

By the way point "B" stated that:

a comparative advertising must be made only regards properties or services which satisfies same needs or propose similar objectives

and point "c":

a comparative advertising must only *objectively* comparate one or more essential characteristics, and strictly regarding these characteristics, *that could be verified and which are representative of the other product*, included in possible event ("eventualmente" in italian is not "eventually" in english) the price of these properties or services.

Art. 7 on its link at same page http://www.agcm.it/F8.htm

is related to fines and legal consequences when it exists a guilty.

Point 2 the advertising could be stopped by authorities on the basis of a simple charge by any person who made the report

(Regarding internet site: the site could be closed by authorities and the maintainer identified)

6) the responsible, when identified is forced to publish a correction to the advertising or to delete it at his expenses.

9) When he/she omitted to correct the advertising or refuses to delete it, then it is subject upto arrest max 3 months and fines upto 5.000.000 lire (2500 Euros)

I must warn also that in Italy it exists the obligation to any jurisdictional judge to proceed if he can certify or verify a crime.

For example, if an old amiga user is by chance also a judge, and again by chance he had read the pegasos-amiga site finding the broken-ball-morph logo...
...then he *MUST* proceed versus Miky or Genesi, even if not Amiga Inc, neither any person had reported the faulty guilt to the authorities.

Is all these reasons which lead me to warn Miky (some days ago) that he nust change the logo to avoid any trouble from Authorities...

Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 169 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 08-Nov-2003 01:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Raffaele):
Providing, of course, that the logo in question was registered in Italy, correct? I highly doubt Italy would be any more ready to protect foreign trademarks than any other country.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 170 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 08-Nov-2003 02:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 169 (Nate Downes):
When answering to Mr. Nate Downes, I desire to apologize with you readers regarding any typos I could made some minutes ago.

Now here it is 4:11 AM. I am tired and suffered the need of sleep.

For example I find I wrote «Off course» instead of «Of course»

And I omitted to state that:

the obligation of the judge is even when only informed of the guilty fact...
...and not upon a direct charge of someone by someone else!

And the obligation is regarding to sue legal action versus the possible guilty person.

And by the way mr. Downes, yes, you are right.

But now the registration is intended to embrace all the trademarks registred into EU Community, not only into Italy.

(by the way, Amiga trademark with ball-logo are registred trademarks from the times of AmigaOS 3.5 ---if I don't fail---)

Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 171 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 08-Nov-2003 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Raffaele):
>For example, if an old amiga user is by chance also a
>judge, and again by chance he had read the pegasos-amiga
>site finding the broken-ball-morph logo...
>...then he *MUST* proceed versus Miky or Genesi, even if
>not Amiga Inc, neither any person had reported the faulty
>guilt to the authorities.

This assuming that the logo is there to offend or criticize
Amiga Inc. First of all, the boing ball is a common logo
used for years and Amiga doesn't have the exclusive right to
use it in computer indutry (otherwise they should put a tm
near it).

We can simply image that the logo means: AmigaOS morphed in
something new, different, that's exactly what the text
under logo shows.

Also the site clearly states what is mOS and what is Amiga,
so they aren't trying to let people believe they something
different.

You see, I really think that cooperation would be the best
way to work for Amiga (OS4 on Peg would be great), but I
also believe in a free market and freedom of speech. The
broken ball is just a broken ball with some butterflies
around. It means: evolution, morph. Not 'you suck, we are
the best' or 'amiga is dead we are amiga'. It just means
'amigaos morphed into something new'.

>Is all these reasons which lead me to warn Miky (some days
>ago) that he nust change the logo to avoid any trouble from
>Authorities...

And its for the exact same reasons that I suggest them to
leave the logo where it is. They just must be sure to make
clean it's not offensive and that their product is not 'the
new amiga'.

A similar story happened some years ago when a known italian
journalist led many people to believe EAR was died and its
successor was his own cd magazine, while the name and the
subscribers base was buyed by someone else who printed a new
magazine, the real successor. Nothing happened to him, so I
wonder how a logo in a site really clean about who they are
and what they are doing can get troubles to Michele.

Anyway, Michele, if you wish I can suggest you a good lawyer
to ask to. Or you can simply ignore these things and live
happy with your good site.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 172 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 08-Nov-2003 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 170 (Raffaele):
that is currect, for the EU not just Italy. (the EU is a new concept still)

As for if the boing ball is a trademark, I've heard so many stories at this point that I will not even venture a guess.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 173 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 08-Nov-2003 22:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 171 (Gabriele Favrin):
Mr. Gabriele Favrin wrote:


>>In Reply to Comment 168:
>>For example, if an old amiga user is by chance also a
>>judge, and again by chance he had read the pegasos-amiga
>>site finding the broken-ball-morph logo...
>>...then he *MUST* proceed versus Miky or Genesi, even if
>>not Amiga Inc, neither any person had reported the faulty
>>guilt to the authorities.

>This assuming that the logo is there to offend or criticize
>Amiga Inc.


Gabriele are you joking? The danger is real!

It could happen that a single moron will signal it to the commerce authorities and the judge is forced to proceed if he will notice *ANY* infringment of the law.

The procedings to stop che advertising champaign will then start automatically.

The legal sue will come after, and only when real infringment will be certified...


>First of all, the boing ball is a common logo
>used for years and Amiga doesn't have the exclusive right to
>use it in computer indutry (otherwise they should put a tm
>near it).


Gabriele where do you had lived in these years?

Boing Ball is the registered logo of Amiga Inc. as stated in a lots of documents into internet... let's do a check with a search engine.

For example I can suggest you:

http://amiga.emugaming.com/logo.html

In which you can read the whole story of the Amiga logos...


>We can simply image that the logo means: AmigaOS morphed in
>something new, different, that's exactly what the text
>under logo shows.
>
>Also the site clearly states what is mOS and what is Amiga,
>so they aren't trying to let people believe they something
>different.


So they must drop all things referring to Amiga, except the Amiga boingball logo presented in the page of supported OSes.

Because other pictures with both Amiga ball and MorpOS butterfly together, could ingenerate confusion and consequently are a law infringment as stated in:

Art 3 Bis point d) of the law.


>You see, I really think that cooperation would be the best
>way to work for Amiga (OS4 on Peg would be great),


I will hope it too...
But unfortunately the reality it is only a story of menaces of sue between both competitors, and a recent story of true legal procedings...


>but I also believe in a free market and freedom of speech.


Free market and freedom of speech are both beautiful different things...

And the free market is only an utopy because everything is subject to the laws...

Not to talk about what happens to the concept of freedom of speech applied into real world...

:-((((((((((((((


>The broken ball is just a broken ball with some butterflies
>around.


Ah, if only that was the Heaven's Will...


>It means: evolution, morph. Not 'you suck, we are
>the best' or 'amiga is dead we are amiga'.
>It just means 'amigaos morphed into something new'.


Genesi had buyed Amiga Inc.?

No...

Or at least... simply still not

;-))))))))))

So until that day in which Genesi will acquire Amiga Inc., both logo must stay well divided.

Otherwise we are in serious danger to lose the good site that Miky realized.


>>Is all these reasons which lead me to warn Miky (some days
>>ago) that he nust change the logo to avoid any trouble from
>>Authorities...
>
>And its for the exact same reasons that I suggest them to
>leave the logo where it is. They just must be sure to make
>clean it's not offensive and that their product is not 'the
>new amiga'.


It is their choice to do so and to risk about that...


>A similar story happened some years ago when a known italian
>journalist led many people to believe EAR was died and its
>successor was his own cd magazine, while the name and the
>subscribers base was buyed by someone else who printed a new
>magazine, the real successor.
>
>Nothing happened to him, so I wonder how a logo in a site really
>clean about who they are and what they are doing can get
>troubles to Michele.
>
>
>
>Anyway, Michele, if you wish I can suggest you a good lawyer
>to ask to. Or you can simply ignore these things and live
>happy with your good site.


I have some friends of mine who are lawyers and old Amiga users. I can ask them if there is some real problem.


Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 174 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 08-Nov-2003 23:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Nate Downes):
Mr. Nate Downes wrote:

>that is currect, for the EU not just Italy.
>(the EU is a new concept still)


Excuse me... But really I can't follow your reasoning.

:-?

I consider two possibilities about your post...

1) Are you stated that EU laws are still to be written, because Eu it is a new concept?

Then I must tell you that EU laws are pretty damned real and already applied by local governments.

[For example Italy must pay a charge to EU because farmers produced more milk than assigned quote established by EU Law.
(And this is a story which is 5-10 years old. So I must assume that EU laws were active from *almost* that date...
...If not elder than from that date)]


2) Are you stated that it is a good thing that a trademark registred in a single country of the EU is now protected among the entire territory of EU?


I am curious to know if any of these two questions of mine match the meaning of your post.


>As for if the boing ball is a trademark, I've heard so many stories at this >point that I will not even venture a guess.


Even Gabriele Favrin wrote that the BoingBall Logo lacks of the Trademark sign stamped close to it.

Now I begin to wonder if Amiga Inc. made an abuse by using that logo without registring it...

...to avoid the payment of the tax duties



Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 175 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 08-Nov-2003 23:59 GMT
For other infos regarding European legislation:


See the site of:

Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market

http://oami.eu.int/en/mark/default.htm

[(For the readers in italian language)
http://oami.eu.int/it/mark/default.htm]


In the document:

«First Directive 89/104/EEC of the Council, of 21 December 1988, to Approximate the Laws of the Member States Relating to Trade Marks»

http://oami.eu.int/en/mark/aspects/direc/direc.htm

[Ita:
http://oami.eu.int/it/mark/aspects/direc/direc.htm]


And to werify current legislation within the member states see document:

«National Law in the Field of Trade Marks»

http://oami.eu.int/en/mark/aspects/natlaw/default.htm

[Ita:
http://oami.eu.int/it/mark/aspects/natlaw/default.htm]


Hope this will be of some help.

Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 176 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 09-Nov-2003 00:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Raffaele):
Ohoo... what an useful site...

There I found italian legislation regarding marks (this is strictely related to what I had written about law regarding correct competition into advertising campaign).

It is noteworthy that it is written into plain correct english, take a look at this:


http://oami.eu.int/genhtm/mark/nl_it_1_en.htm


---*QUOTING*---

Trademark Law

(Royal Decree No 929 of 21 June 1942 as last amended by Legislative Decree No 198 of 21 June 1996)


Chapter I

Rights in Trademarks

Art. 1.—1. The rights of the owner of a registered trademark shall consist in the faculty to make exclusive use of the trademark. The owner shall have the right to prohibit third parties who do not have his consent from using:

(a) signs identical to the trademark for goods or services that are identical to those for which the trademark was registered;

(b) signs identical or similar to the registered trademark for goods or services that are identical or similar where the identity or similarity of the signs and the identity or similarity of the goods or services might create a risk of confusion for the public, such risk of confusion including also the risk of association between the two signs;

(c) signs identical or similar to the registered trademark for goods or services that are not similar, where the registered trademark is well known in the State and the use of the sign without just reason would allow undue advantage to be taken of the distinctiveness or notoriety of the trademark or would be detrimental to the latter.

2. In the cases provided for in paragraph 1 the owner of a trademark may, in particular, prohibit third parties from affixing the sign on the goods or their packaging, from offering such goods, placing them on the market or holding them for such purposes, or offering or providing the services distinguished by the sign, from importing or exporting goods distinguished by the sign and from using the sign in commercial correspondence and advertising.

Art. 1bis.—1. The rights in a registered trademark shall not entitle the proprietor to prohibit another person from using in the course of trade:

(a) his own name and address;

(b) references to the kind, quality, quantity, intended purpose, value, geographical origin, time of production of the goods or rendering of the service or other characteristics of the goods or services;

(c) the trademark, where it is necessary to specify the intended purpose of a product or service, in particular as accessories or spare parts;

provided that the use is in accordance with the principles of honest trading and therefore does not have a trademark function, but only a descriptive function.

2. The rights in a registered trademark shall further not entitle the proprietor to prohibit use of the mark for goods put on the market in the European Economic Community under the mark by the proprietor or with his consent.

However, this limitation of the powers of the proprietor shall not apply where there exist legitimate reasons for the proprietor to oppose further marketing of the goods, in particular where their condition is changed or impaired after they have been put on the market.

---*End of Quoting*---

Hope this will be of some more help...


Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 177 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 09-Nov-2003 01:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (Raffaele):
>>This assuming that the logo is there to offend or criticize
>>Amiga Inc.

>Gabriele are you joking? The danger is real!

I don't see it, at least if that logo is not used
in a commercial way but just to descrive an evolution.

>It could happen that a single moron will signal it to the
>commerce authorities and the judge is forced to proceed if
>he will notice *ANY* infringment of the law.

This assuming somneone else sees it in the way you see. We
are not talking about a promo or a TV spot. We can even call
it 'fan art'.

In this way I consider that logo as funny as another great
work. Do you know stargate SG1? Well, some fan got a lot of
sequences, combined them, added a 'black'n'white+old movie'
effect, removed voices, added subs and a piano bgsound and
procduced a three part wma movie. Is it illegal? Does he
risk anything? The file is available on the web since years
and no one blamed him. And you know, MPAA is a bit more
important than Amiga Inc...

>The procedings to stop che advertising champaign will then
>start automatically.

There is NO advertising campaign, since the logo on
Michele's site is not used to see anything.

>The legal sue will come after, and only when real
>infringment will be certified...

If, not when.

>>First of all, the boing ball is a common logo
>>used for years and Amiga doesn't have the exclusive right to
>Gabriele where do you had lived in these years?

In a country full of amiga fanatics and legal lovers, it
seems.

>Boing Ball is the registered logo of Amiga Inc. as stated
>in a lots of documents into internet... let's do a check
>with a search engine.
>http://amiga.emugaming.com/logo.html
>In which you can read the whole story of the Amiga logos...

And you can even read that the boing ball logo represents
"Amiga philosophy", that there is still a demo with the
boing ball (it couldn't be available if the boing ball was a
registered trademark with exclusive use rights). By browsing
the web or watching magazines you may know that the boing
ball is used evrywhere. So Amiga (or your imaginary judge)
should first think that Amiga inc right now allows the free
use of boing ball, as it is. Any one can use it, without
asking permission. What does this mean to you?

>>Also the site clearly states what is mOS and what is Amiga,
>>so they aren't trying to let people believe they something
>>different.

>So they must drop all things referring to Amiga, except the
>Amiga boingball logo presented in the page of supported
>OSes.

THat's would be correct. Use instead a logo directly related
to OS3.9. But they can refer to Amiga since mOS is an Amiga
compatible OS.

>Because other pictures with both Amiga ball and MorpOS
>butterfly together, could ingenerate confusion and
>consequently are a law infringment as stated in:

No, they can't. At least in users who are able to read.

>>You see, I really think that cooperation would be the best
>>way to work for Amiga (OS4 on Peg would be great),

>Not to talk about what happens to the concept of freedom of
>speech applied into real world...

Thing can be fixed...
just see DeCSS.

For my opinion, the broken ball can be the Amiga community
DeCSS and if there will be any proceedings against Michele
be sure that the next summer I'll print the broken ball logo
on a tshirt and dress it. Not because I like mOS (I repest:
I prefer OS4) but because I like freedom of speech, freddom
of art (that logo IS art) and a free market with
competition.

>>It means: evolution, morph. Not 'you suck, we are
>>the best' or 'amiga is dead we are amiga'.
>>It just means 'amigaos morphed into something new'.
>Genesi had buyed Amiga Inc.?

Should they?

>So until that day in which Genesi will acquire Amiga Inc.,
>both logo must stay well divided.

Still, I don't agree. And Michele is not working/emplotewd
with Genesis. Until there isn't a commercial usage of that
logo he can do what he wants of it.

>Otherwise we are in serious danger to lose the good site
>that Miky realized.

Miky, move the logo on a server in a country outside EU and
live happy. And give me the version without butterflies I
asked you :) I only want the broken ball ;p

>I have some friends of mine who are lawyers and old Amiga
>users. I can ask them if there is some real problem.

So why don't you ask them now if your opinions are correct
and Michele is really risking something for... fan art?

Btw, as I said toi another guy in another thread, now I know
your opinions and you know mine. No need to talk forever
IMHO... especially because each message costs a lot of
bandwidth to ANN.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 178 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 09-Nov-2003 14:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Gabriele Favrin):
Mr. Gabriele Favrin wrote:

In Reply to Comment 173:
>>>This assuming that the logo is there to offend or criticize
>>>Amiga Inc.
>>
>>Gabriele are you joking? The danger is real!
>
>I don't see it, at least if that logo is not used
>in a commercial way but just to descrive an evolution.
>
>It could happen that a single moron will signal it to the
>commerce authorities and the judge is forced to proceed if
>he will notice *ANY* infringment of the law.
>
>This assuming somneone else sees it in the way you see. We
>are not talking about a promo or a TV spot. We can even call
>it 'fan art'.

It is "fan art" when a fan put it on a t-shirt or on his "fan" site.

When you put it in a commercial site it is unfair.

Unfortunately when Miky stated on his site that everyone can order new Pegasos machine from it...

...the site itself ceased to be a "fan site" or an "info site" regarding a certain platform...

...to became a commercial one...

>In this way I consider that logo as funny as another great
>work. Do you know stargate SG1? Well, some fan got a lot of
>sequences, combined them, added a 'black'n'white+old movie'
>effect, removed voices, added subs and a piano bgsound and
>procduced a three part wma movie. Is it illegal? Does he
>risk anything? The file is available on the web since years
>and no one blamed him. And you know, MPAA is a bit more
>important than Amiga Inc...

It is not a comparable thing until the fan will not sell it.

And for sure you have not specified if that site you signaled us is italian or not...

Legislation may vary from country to country...


However the lawyer friend of mine, I had asked abut this problem, stated that there is no problem until someone will complain for the logo asking its obliged removal by the authority of commerce.

And if Miky will change it in some details, such as to use different colors, a different ball, etc...

...it will not infringe the law anymore.

So I repeat now publicly what I said to Miky.

Please Miky, change it into a boing-ball "egged shaped" logo.

It will still resemble correctly the Amiga logo Boing-Ball,

But no one could said anymore anything versus it

(this will be sure a "Columbus Egg") ;-)))))))))))))))))


Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 179 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 10-Nov-2003 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 178 (Raffaele):
>>This assuming somneone else sees it in the way you see. We
>>are not talking about a promo or a TV spot. We can even call
>>it 'fan art'.

>It is "fan art" when a fan put it on a t-shirt or on his "fan" site.
>When you put it in a commercial site it is unfair.

But on this I agree with you.
My posirtion is based upon the assumption that the site is a
community one, not a commercial reseller.

But, if there are money involved it has to be seen if
Michele is selling products or he just work as a reference
("say you seen the offer on this site and you'll get a
discount") an if he gets money from transactions or not.

Right now we don't have this information so we can't
consider the broken ball as a part of a commercial site or
even as a unfair advertising

>It is not a comparable thing until the fan will not sell it.
>And for sure you have not specified if that site you
>signaled us is italian or not...

Germany (http://www.samcole.de, download the movie: if you
love SG1 is worth! Ah, you need a wma player).

>However the lawyer friend of mine, I had asked abut this
>problem, stated that there is no problem until someone will
>complain for the logo asking its obliged removal by the
>authority of commerce.

And now maybe we have this "someone". A guy who is forced to
read all amighista's posts evry day and who is ended up
talking of "vilipendio del logo amiga". Anyway, authorities
would have to find out if Michele's site is commercial or
not. They will not just force him to remove the logo. Italy
is still a democratic land.

>And if Miky will change it in some details, such as to use
>different colors, a different ball, etc...
>>...it will not infringe the law anymore.

Wow, the same suggestions I gived him yesterday. Just few
bits in case you are worried. Remove the light source,
change a bit the colours or the forms and live happy.

>(this will be sure a "Columbus Egg") ;-)))))))))))))))))

;-)
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 180 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 10-Nov-2003 17:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Raffaele):
#2, combined with me forgetting about that part of EU law.
Pegasos-Italia : Comment 181 of 181ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 10-Nov-2003 17:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 178 (Raffaele):
I would note that Miky's boing ball has a differnt count of red/white pattern and is at a different angle than the official boing ball.
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