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[Web] NCSCAUG Interview with OmniscienceANN.lu
Posted on 07-Nov-2003 19:55 GMT by Tony Gore37 comments
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The NC/SC Amiga User Group presents an interview with developer Jim Wingard of Omniscience. The interview outlines the process of becoming an AmigaDE developer, the software development cycle, as well as his take on AmigaDE in general. Read the full interview ...
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 1 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Nov-2003 19:15 GMT
Was that a WrongPla.net article originally?

Anyway, thanks for the laugh! Brilliant! Sad thing is I guess some people actually were thinking along those lines back in 1999.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 2 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 07-Nov-2003 19:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
??

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are talking about. No, this is an original interview, just published. I'm trying to understand what was funny and what you are talking about in 1999?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 3 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 07-Nov-2003 21:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Tony Gore):
I think an interesting question would have been, are you upset that you like the other developers on the Game Paks have not yet been paid for the sales of your software??
-Tig
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 4 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 07-Nov-2003 23:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Tigger):
Well, since Jim never mentioned that he has never been paid, why would I ask that? I'm sure you are more worried about that than Jim seems to be. ;)

So which one of you two have written anything for the Amiga (classic or DE)?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 5 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 08-Nov-2003 00:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Tony Gore):
I've written all pieces of about 10 Amiga products, plus portions of ImageFX, Alladin, Decision Maker, Co-Pilot Video, Co-Pilot Audio, Fast Frames, Multicam Editor, Wipe Studio, Millenium, FastFuel and several others I am probably forgetting at the moment. Is that enough for me to make the comment??
-Tig
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 6 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 08-Nov-2003 00:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Tigger):
Of course tigger... But I see where you are heading with your remark. I think the first post was obvious now, looking back on it. I had a feeling that this is the type of response that Ann would produce, but wanted to share the information with as many people as are interested.

For just once, could somebody read something and take some value away from the content, instead of trying to make it into a "slag Amiga Inc" contest??? Whatever happened to people with some intelligent input to share? This was a good and informative piece and you and the first anonymous troll try to turn these peoples hard work into a "joke", just for the sake of stabbing at Amiga. If you are not interested in AmigaDE or the development process, please move along to the next article. It really is that simple. Replies are not necessary.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 7 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 08-Nov-2003 05:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Tony Gore):
>>>>
For just once, could somebody read something and take some value away from the content, instead of trying to make it into a "slag Amiga Inc" contest??? Whatever happened to people with some intelligent input to share? This was a good and informative piece and you and the first anonymous troll try to turn these peoples hard work into a "joke", just for the sake of stabbing at Amiga. If you are not interested in AmigaDE or the development process, please move along to the next article. It really is that simple. Replies are not necessary.
>>>>

I took some value away from it, and I think everyone should take value away from it. My issue is that you article is likely to encourage others to work on DE. I'm not making fun of any of the people who have worked or are working on DE applications, I've played with all of the currently available applictions, and I bought at least 6 copies of the SDK for me and my programmers. My issue is that Fleecy and Gary are out there talking to developers like your friend about buying SDKs, and investing months of their time with promises of sales and financial returns. So far that hasnt happened. We have talks about sellout of the Game Paks from Fleecy, yet no money for the people who wrote the content for those Game Paks (including your friend). Microsoft doesnt owe Amiga Inc for the Game Paks, why does Amiga Inc still owe the developers?? I've had these conversations with people who were going to get paid by Amiga Inc in June, then July, then August for software that Amiga Inc sold last year or early this year. All the while Amiga Inc has been encouraging them to get their next piece of software done for the deal with Sendo or Microsoft or whoever else is the current "hot for DE" company of the month. Developers have the right to know whether Amiga Inc is paying the people writing the DE applications that Amiga is currently selling, especially since currently thats the only way DE developers can make money from DE.
-Tig
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 8 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Douglas McLaughlin on 08-Nov-2003 05:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Tigger):
I really think the issue of payment is personal and private. If Jim had wanted to bring the issue up, he has had more one opportunity, only one of which was the list of questions we asked him to answer. Had the question been asked, I seriously doubt Jim would have answered it. I know I would not have done so.

While you have every right to ask your question, both NCSCAUG and Omniscience have every right not to ask it and every right not to answer it.

I believe everyone is more than painfully aware of the situation, trying to blast open a fresh would with dynamite serves no purpose.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 9 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 08-Nov-2003 06:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Douglas McLaughlin):
>>>>
I believe everyone is more than painfully aware of the situation,
>>>>
I would hope so, but its simply not true. Every week someone asks on here or Amiga.org whats going on with Amiga Inc or I'm thinking about developing something for it, or buying the SDK, etc. Is it really a good idea to post about the cool points of working on DE and not point out that at this time, there is no way to make any money selling DE products??
-Tig
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 10 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 08-Nov-2003 06:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Tigger):
Oh Tigger, you're so noble that my eyes get all wet...

Seriously, Tigger. Do you really want us to believe that you are only making these inflammatory and patronizing remarks about Amiga Inc. solely for the purpose of informing and saving innocent developers from beeing ripped off? Please get down from that high horse of yours and let people use their own judgement for once. I mean, it's not like you're the only one with an intellect around here. As a matter of fact, I think there are way too many "intellects" around here in order to keep these forums clean from those petty 500+ posts flamewars.

Note to myself: This is my first post on ANN in about two or three weeks time.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 11 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 08-Nov-2003 07:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Tigger):
Well it is the basic flaw of the DE (apart from it's technical shortcomings):

AInc wants money for the SDK.
AInc wants money for the player.
AInc wants money for every copy of every piece of SW sold for it.
and even worse:
AInc wants to control who sells a piece of SW to whom.

Now this buisness model may work when you are Sony and have allready sold
millions of PS2s, but it just won't work when you are a startup, with not single
working partnership to one of the big guys.

Want to argue that ? Than answer this:

Why is it that after >3 years and 3000 SDKs sold, all we have seen are a dozen or
sp medicore C64-style games ?
Why is it that the one advertized as the "killer-app" is over 2 years old (Planet Z) ?
Why is it that not a single piece of HW has been sold with DE preinstalled.
Why is it that M$/CompUSA have nver restocked after selling the first (small) batch ?
Why is it that these games are only available in one obscure web-shop (well and
sometimes on flea-bay) ?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 12 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Purist on 08-Nov-2003 10:35 GMT
EXCUSE ME BUT:

How else could the Amiga users fell about a company that after buying the rights to the trademark and the exclusive license from Gateway, anounces that they are returning the Amiga to where it belongs: to the users. Soon after they announce AmigaOS dead. Then they keep posting some pure marketing informatinon targeted at Amiga users to switch to the DE platform. If they are so hosnest why didn't they allowed the companies that were still developing AmigaOS, or could do so, continue it for the sake of the users?? Yes why? Simple, they have their own agenda to make money and put it in first place.
OS4? It's only because they FINNALY understood that most Amiga users are not so blind but hey TOO LATE. In what concerns the Amiga fans they done the final mercy killing that Collas started when Linux was to be used. The people left are mostly not very technically savvy, they're just users that ignore the targets of the main company. If you look back at the Amiga community back in 1997, in wasn't like that. There were many technically savvy people that left the platform at that time. It's impossible to predict the future, but I'd bet that they's slowly transform AmigaOS into just something to fit their DE agenda. Why else would they announce AmigaOS dead when there were plenty developers willing to continue it? When the real users showed and THEY KNEW, that their interest was in AmigaOS (what else could it be anyway).
Please do us a favour and give the Amiga name to Hyperion or Genesi. Hyperion are the sacrafice lambs to your agenda and they don't know it.
NO MORE LIES PLEASE!
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 13 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 08-Nov-2003 11:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Kronos):
Answer to all of the above: Because you want it to be like that so you can use it to repeatedly state it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again for slagging off at Amiga Inc.

Please, the article is interesting because it brings something new into the light. Your demeaning comments above does not.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 14 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 08-Nov-2003 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (samface):
Ah, thats why the DE is such a success, and AInc is swimming in money
coming in from licence-deals .....
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 15 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 08-Nov-2003 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Purist):
>Simple, they have their own agenda to make money and put it in first place.

Congratulations! You just earned yourself a degree in economics.

Seriously, they are a business rather than some form of charity organization, of course they will do what makes the most business sense! What did you expect, free beer?

Furhtermore, they dropped the AmigaOS at first since it didn't make business sense to rewrite the old legacy 68k and chipset dependant AmigaOS for just a handful of dedicated AmigaOS users. However, when several third parties offered to do the work for them, they agreed to license the technology so that third parties could continue the classic line of products while they keep their focus on the next generation technology. You can whine about this strategy all you want but I don't think you will accomplish anything but look really childish.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 16 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 08-Nov-2003 11:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Kronos):
Please, I've had it with all those stupid arguments due to people's lack of ability to grasp what they read. Your statement makes no sense with what I wrote what so ever.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 17 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Nov-2003 11:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Kronos):
Unfortunately you can't release software for DE your own. DE could be interesting hobby platform but everything you do must be distributed through Amiga Inc. DE platform is doing better than 68k, though.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 18 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 08-Nov-2003 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (itix):
@itix

I'm not so sure about that, cos I actually see far more(and often better) SW being
released for 68k than for DE.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 19 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Purist on 08-Nov-2003 12:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (samface):
>>Simple, they have their own agenda to make money and put it in first place.

>Congratulations! You just earned yourself a degree in economics.

>Seriously, they are a business rather than some form of charity organization, >of course they will do what makes the most business sense! What did you >expect, free beer?

There was no investmente from them that was necessary.
So I'd expect them to support the users by letting the 3rd party companies continue AmigaOS, at that time (when they announced AmigaOS dead).

>...However, when several third parties offered to do the work for them, they agreed to license the technology so that third parties could continue the classic line of products while they keep their focus on the next generation technology.

No. Please get your facts rigth! That allowed third party developers to continue AmigaOS when they saw that they couldn't modify TAOS' intent to have memory protection. AmigaDe over AmigaOS is supposed to have that.
So again, it wasn't "for the users".

> You can whine about this strategy all you want but I don't think you will accomplish anything but look really childish.

Childish?!! So you don't think that people that have dedicated so much time to the platform and see the company screwing it all up because of their own agenda, when they could have simply let other companies continue supporting it have a right to say something?

Don't get me wrong I'm talking about the situation as in 2000 (or close) when they announced AmigaOS dead. They screwed it. AmigaOS developers just got away.
There sure was a lack of product responsability too, but had they let 3rd parties continue the OS the the time, I don't think we would be in the situation we are now.

So forgive me if I sound too hash, but the thing is, after what they've done (or didn't), it just seems too much hypocrisy to hear people saying something along the lines of "we're giving AmigaOS back to the users, allowing 3rd parties to continue the OS" or something.

Companies can do whatever they want to with what they own, but their actions, specially towards customers/users are pretty much the normal relations of normall Joe's. If they screwed you once you shouldn't trust them till they prove the contrary.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 20 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Nov-2003 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Kronos):
My post was trollish; 68k market is virtually inexistant. Not much needed if DE game sells better than 68k titles.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 21 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 08-Nov-2003 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Purist):
>>>Simple, they have their own agenda to make money and put it in first place.
>
>>Congratulations! You just earned yourself a degree in economics.
>
>>Seriously, they are a business rather than some form of charity organization, >>of course they will do what makes the most business sense! What did you >>expect, free beer?
>
>There was no investmente from them that was necessary.
>So I'd expect them to support the users by letting the 3rd party companies
>continue AmigaOS, at that time (when they announced AmigaOS dead).

They didn't expect anyone to be up for such seemingly non-profitable task (which would be true for just about any other business out there). However, once it turned out that they were wrong, they changed their decission pretty much right away. I'd even say they announced their change of plans a bit prematurely and should have waited until the deal with the third party was properly set first.

>>...However, when several third parties offered to do the work for them, they
>agreed to license the technology so that third parties could continue the
>classic line of products while they keep their focus on the next generation
>technology.
>
>No. Please get your facts rigth! That allowed third party developers to
>continue AmigaOS when they saw that they couldn't modify TAOS' intent to have
>memory protection. AmigaDe over AmigaOS is supposed to have that.
>So again, it wasn't "for the users".

The original plan to write a new OS from scratch to integrate the AmigaDE technology with has NOT changed. The original AmigaOS will be gradually replaced, piece by piece, until nothing or very little is left of it. They call this replacing AG1 (Amiga Generation 1) with AG2 (Amiga Generation 2) technology.

Again, this as a business plan for a hopefully commercially viable product, not your everyday hack and patch made "for the users" that you find on Aminet.

>> You can whine about this strategy all you want but I don't think you will
>accomplish anything but look really childish.
>
>Childish?!! So you don't think that people that have dedicated so much time to
>the platform and see the company screwing it all up because of their own
>agenda, when they could have simply let other companies continue supporting it
>have a right to say something?

I'm sorry if it disappoints you if they try to turn the Amiga market into a profitable business again rather than some kind of exotic hobbyist niche thing.

>Don't get me wrong I'm talking about the situation as in 2000 (or close) when
>they announced AmigaOS dead.

They never announced it dead, all they said is that they won't pursue the classic product line since it doesn't make business sense for them. This remains true as of today.

>They screwed it. AmigaOS developers just got away.

The results of their strategy still remains to be seen. Don't expect a new OS to be written from scratch with as limited resources as theirs over just a day or two, expect it to take several years. In the meantime, their strategy has been to go ahead and release the AmigaDE as a hosted ontop of other operating systems solution in order for developers to be able to start developing for this new future software platform today.

>There sure was a lack of
>product responsability too, but had they let 3rd parties continue the OS the
>the time, I don't think we would be in the situation we are now.

Their are alot more to the story than you know about. The problem never was Amiga Inc.'s inability to let a third party take over the development of the classic product line, the problem was trying to get all the third parties to cooperate so that the product could be produced and delivered. Negotiations was in a stand still and nearly dropped entirely when Hyperion finally stepped in and saved the day, so to speak.

>So forgive me if I sound too hash, but the thing is, after what they've done
>(or didn't), it just seems too much hypocrisy to hear people saying something
>along the lines of "we're giving AmigaOS back to the users, allowing 3rd
>parties to continue the OS" or something.

From a business stand point, I don't think Amiga Inc. care much for the classic Amiga product line at all and I never claimed otherwise. However, just like me, they are fond of their history and appreciates the efforts from Eyetech and Hyperion like the rest of us.

>Companies can do whatever they want to with what they own, but their actions,
>specially towards customers/users are pretty much the normal relations of
>normall Joe's. If they screwed you once you shouldn't trust them till they
>prove the contrary.

In what way did they "screw" you?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 22 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Nov-2003 14:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (samface):
> The original plan to write a new OS from scratch to integrate the AmigaDE technology with has NOT changed.> The original AmigaOS will be gradually replaced, piece by piece, until nothing or very little is left of it.> They call this replacing AG1 (Amiga Generation 1) with AG2 (Amiga Generation 2) technology. This is very interesting. There has been only little of information so far (and I thought OS4 is Amiga Generation 2) but what I'ev read is that OS5 goes multiplatform (x86, PPC) and emulates both classic Amiga software (OS3.x) and PPC Amiga software (OS4) ? And in which way OS4 emulation layer (and AmigaOS itself) is integrated into DE/OS5? Is OS5 part of DE player or what?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 23 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Nov-2003 17:17 GMT
There are two questions I would like to ask:

1. How many peole are currently developing fr the DE?

2. What modules/libraries are currently working and usable? I think there is an Ami2D, and you mention a database module. What else can be used that is not in Intent?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 24 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Purist on 08-Nov-2003 18:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (samface):
>>>>Simple, they have their own agenda to make money and put it in first place.
>>
>>>Congratulations! You just earned yourself a degree in economics.
>>
>>>Seriously, they are a business rather than some form of charity >>organization, >>of course they will do what makes the most business sense! >>What did you >>expect, free beer?
>>>
>>>There was no investmente from them that was necessary.
>>So I'd expect them to support the users by letting the 3rd party companies
>>continue AmigaOS, at that time (when they announced AmigaOS dead).
>
>They didn't expect anyone to be up for such seemingly non-profitable task
>(which would be true for just about any other business out there). However, >once it turned out that they were wrong, they changed their decission pretty >much right away. I'd even say they announced their change of plans a bit >prematurely and should have waited until the deal with the third party was >properly set first.

Again no. they changed plans when they saw that they couldn't have memory protection on TAO's intent.

>
>>>...However, when several third parties offered to do the work for them, they
>>agreed to license the technology so that third parties could continue the
>>classic line of products while they keep their focus on the next generation
>>technology.
>>
>>No. Please get your facts rigth! That allowed third party developers to
>>continue AmigaOS when they saw that they couldn't modify TAOS' intent to have
>>memory protection. AmigaDe over AmigaOS is supposed to have that.
>>So again, it wasn't "for the users".
>
>
>The original plan to write a new OS from scratch to integrate the AmigaDE >technology with has NOT changed. The original AmigaOS will be gradually >replaced, piece by piece, until nothing or very little is left of it....

Yap. And that's exactly my point. They only changed their minds because the thing turned out to be handdy for them nothing more.

>
>Again, this as a business plan for a hopefully commercially viable product, >not your everyday hack and patch made "for the users" that you find on Aminet.

Hugh?! So you don't think it was possible to mature the OS like what Hyperion are doing right now? Wich will be completely replaced "till there is nothing of it" by the way.

>
>
>>> You can whine about this strategy all you want but I don't think you will
>>accomplish anything but look really childish.
>>
>>Childish?!! So you don't think that people that have dedicated so much time >to
>>the platform and see the company screwing it all up because of their own
>>agenda, when they could have simply let other companies continue supporting >it
>>have a right to say something?
>
>I'm sorry if it disappoints you if they try to turn the Amiga market into a >profitable business again rather than some kind of exotic hobbyist niche >thing.

How could it be profitable if they scared away the major developers there were for AmiagaOS?!
Look at the few remaining quality applications: ImageFx, Pagestream... they have a port to MOS, something wich nobody ever dreamed would happend. This has happend precisely because of the reasons I mentioned. Don't you think that the people that developed that software are not that stupid and must have their reasons? They're precisely what I'm talking about.
Don't you think that people aren't stupid enouph to not distinguish between AmigaOS and some software layer "run everywhere fit everywhere..". I mean, if they were fans of AmigaOS after all these years there must have been some reason. Many people even know the LOV by memory!!
Before you sudden to make conclusions that I'm on the other side, I've switched to Linux in Collas times, but still keep an eye on the news.

>
>>Don't get me wrong I'm talking about the situation as in 2000 (or close) when
>>they announced AmigaOS dead.
>
>They never announced it dead, all they said is that they won't pursue the >classic product line since it doesn't make business sense for them. This >remains true as of today.

Bill McEween said it was dead in one of his letters on the main site.

>
>>They screwed it. AmigaOS developers just got away.
>
>The results of their strategy still remains to be seen. Don't expect a new OS >to be written from scratch with as limited resources as theirs over just a day >or two, expect it to take several years. In the meantime, their strategy has >been to go ahead and release the AmigaDE as a hosted ontop of other operating >systems solution in order for developers to be able to start developing for >this new future software platform today.

THe DE idea is a damn good one, but it doesn't mean that they had to destroy what was left of AmigaOS (2000) when they announced it dead, to make everyone follow their plan, wich doesn't even allow one to publish software by oneself. Pretty great.

>
>>There sure was a lack of
>>product responsability too, but had they let 3rd parties continue the OS the
>>the time, I don't think we would be in the situation we are now.
>
>Their are alot more to the story than you know about. The problem never was >Amiga Inc.'s inability to let a third party take over the development of the >classic product line, the problem was trying to get all the third parties to >cooperate so that the product could be produced and delivered. Negotiations >was in a stand still and nearly dropped entirely when Hyperion finally stepped >in and saved the day, so to speak.

Again, that was AFTER they saw they couldn't integrate memory protection in TAOS Intent.

>
>>So forgive me if I sound too hash, but the thing is, after what they've done
>>(or didn't), it just seems too much hypocrisy to hear people saying something
>>along the lines of "we're giving AmigaOS back to the users, allowing 3rd
>>parties to continue the OS" or something.
>
>From a business stand point, I don't think Amiga Inc. care much for the >classic Amiga product line at all and I never claimed otherwise. However, just >like me, they are fond of their history and appreciates the efforts from >Eyetech and Hyperion like the rest of us.

But being so fond of "their" story and appreciating so much the efforts of Hyperion and Eytech, like we all do, why was it only when it was conveninent to them, that they let a 3rd party continue the OS? Don't you think it's too much coincidence?!

>
>>Companies can do whatever they want to with what they own, but their actions,
>>specially towards customers/users are pretty much the normal relations of
>>normall Joe's. If they screwed you once you shouldn't trust them till they
>>prove the contrary.
>
>In what way did they "screw" you?
>
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 25 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 09-Nov-2003 05:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (samface):
>>>>
Seriously, Tigger. Do you really want us to believe that you are only making these inflammatory and patronizing remarks about Amiga Inc. solely for the purpose of informing and saving innocent developers from beeing ripped off? Please get down from that high horse of yours and let people use their own judgement for once. I mean, it's not like you're the only one with an intellect around here.
>>>>
Well if I pick through your patronizing and inflammatory post, I guess my answer to your question is yes. Back in the days of commodore, if one of the dealers didnt pay one of us for product, it got around pretty quick and was straighted out or he started to have to pay in advance for his stuff, not just the guy he was slow on, but all of us. My comments on DE in this thread are in the same vein with one difference. Due to the manner which DE is currently handled and which dozens of developers have yelled at them about, it is impossible to sell DE apps yourself, it is only possible to sell them through Amiga Inc. Thats another thing that wasnt pointed in the article, the only wasy to sell a product for DE in through Amiga Inc, and as I pointed out, noone that has done that, has been paid. Sure if you have a few friends with SDKs, you can pass around your DE effort and everybody try it out, but to really market a product, it takes Amiga Incs involvment, and so far they haven't paid anyone whos done that. I didnt point out that as we all know, Amiga Inc is insolvent, they dont have a fax number to fax your SDK registration or a phone number to call for info, they are millions of dollars in debt, all of which is also useful information if you are thinking about developing for DE, all I did was give a buyer beware to anyone thinking about buying an SDK and developing for DE. So far no developer has made any money on DE, thats pretty important info if you are thinking about developing for the platform. I didnt tell them to not develop for DE, I didnt ask people to stop posting the truth because it hurts the story (as you did) I provided the info, the developers can make up their own mind (we are a clever bunch) about what to do with that info.
-Tig
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 26 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 09-Nov-2003 11:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Purist):
>Again no. they changed plans when they saw that they couldn't have memory
>protection on TAO's intent.

So, while you do recognize that their upcoming AmigaOS5 will not be based on the original AmigaOS in any way, you still claim that the plans for continuing the classic AmigaOS product line is because it somehow makes it more convinient for them? I'm sorry but continuing the classic AmigaOS product line will NOT affect the development of AmigaOS5 nor make it any more "convinient" since the original AmigaOS and the technology it is based on is even less suitable than the AmigaDE as a foundation for AmigaOS5 and it's planned feature set. I don't know where you got this messed up logic from but atleast this tells me that you are really not the one to tell me to get my facts straight. Was this some kind of "inside information" from someone who just happens to favor an AmigaOS alternative?
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 27 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 09-Nov-2003 11:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Tigger):
Again, all you do is repeating the same old anti-Amiga Inc. crap. The article brought something new into the light and I'm glad that it doesn't go into the stuff that has already been discussed to death already in every Amiga forum on the net. You see, I could start arguing about what you just wrote if I wanted to but I choose not to because I believe most of us are quite fed up with it already.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 28 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 09-Nov-2003 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (itix):
It is impossible to tell any details at this point but from what I can tell by reading the Q&A session with Fleecy on Amigaworld.net:

1. Yes, AmigaOS5 is *planned* for both x86 and PPC. However, time will tell what the processor market looks like when development of AmigaOS5 has reached the point of processor targeting and optimization.

2. AmigaOS4 targeted applications is planned to be supported through some form of sandbox solution.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 29 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 09-Nov-2003 13:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (samface):
Not where realistically AmigaOS4.0 has lots of PPC optimized assembler code, they have not anchored portability, as they where contracted to do a PPC version of AmigaOS, and as I Se it there to many thing about CPU differences that will make it impossible to run bout i686 code 32/64bit, PPC code 32/64 bit, 68k 32bit code etc, that defiantly not a system I'm jumping after. just think of the overhead when the code need to be converted, it will not be clean and you can't do it, that easy.

The only way it can be done if all apps are put in sand box or emulators, if I liked emulators I be runing UAE now, but guess what emulators are hardly compatible.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 30 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 09-Nov-2003 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Kjetil):
If they do it right, the "only" thing that needs to be ported when targeting different processor arcitectures is the processor and hardware specific code below the hardware abstraction layer. Linux already uses this model and has become the most "hardware independant" OS there is so far. I believe this could be done with an even better implementation than the one of Linux which would give us an OS that is extremely easy to adopt for very different types of hardware and processor arcitectures and thanks to the AmigaDE, remain compatible with it's applications regardless of the underlying hardware.

Anyway, time will tell how the final product will be like. Until then, I heard Warp3D runs on AmigaOS4 now. =)
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 31 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 09-Nov-2003 13:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Tigger):
<<Due to the manner which DE is currently handled and which dozens of developers have yelled at them about, it is impossible to sell DE apps yourself, it is only possible to sell them through Amiga Inc. Thats another thing that wasnt pointed in the article, the only wasy to sell a product for DE in through Amiga Inc>>

Ummm... Tigger... Did you even read the whole thing???? That VERY question is asked the tenth question down! Maybe you should have read it all. :p
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 32 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 09-Nov-2003 14:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Tony Gore):
This could work if AI was using more resources to promote DE platform and games. But it is possible spread DE software without AI if the end user have got SDK, though. IIRC this is not forbidden in the SDA.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 33 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tigger on 10-Nov-2003 03:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Tony Gore):
Tony,

I guess the question was sort of asked, but the answer is weak to say the least. First of all Amiga didnt put alot of effort into DE in fact the TAO SDK is better, secondly, when I bought my SDKs there was no info distributed that I would be counting on Fleecy of all people to sell my products and see that I was paid. I'm all for Amiga Inc making money from their effort, but there are lots of ways for Amiga to make money without being the sole source of DE software. Licencing the OS pieces made Commodore lots of money and would have worked for AI, licensing or selling the player is a real idea that could have netted them lots of income, all these options were discussed at St Louis 2000, as they have been since then. Sole control of DE and all DE related software in Amiga Incs hands is pretty bleak given there current situation.
-Tig
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 34 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Purist on 10-Nov-2003 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (samface):
"So, while you do recognize that their upcoming AmigaOS5 will not be based on the original AmigaOS in any way, you still claim that the plans for continuing the classic AmigaOS product line is because it somehow makes it more convinient for them?"

Yes!! They saw that the current Amiga users don't want just to move platform, wich would be very convenient to them...
what they are doing is continue it till they can use the users that they gain from that. AmigaODE/OS5 wich seem to be the same concept anyway, don't have anything in common with AmigaOS. Many parts of what they call AG1, that they call old legacy, can/are being updated by third to modern functionality.
There is a difference between old legacy that is restrictive and legacy that IS NOT. If you can't differentiate between those two I don't know why I am losing my time with you.
An ousider can clearly see what I pointed out. They were "moving the Amiga community to the DE platform" as Bill McEween said once and that's precisely and plan anyway. No more AmigaDos commands no more anything of all the things the advanced Amiga users have learned throughout the years.

Even if AmigaOS was all trash legacy and some buch of Amiga users liked it, why did they announce the OS dead in 2000 if the 3rd parties continued it, THEY WOULD EVEN GAIN FROM THE LICENSES. This is simple fact!

And by the way, if you're going to tag evey critic towards the current AInc. as that "the other side", without checking the facts you're only showing how narrowminded you are. You just seem to be backing everything they do anyway, even when you don't have inside knowledge yourself. Even if you don't understand many things, the simple fact that many of the more knowledgeable users consider or switched to other "other alternatives" should ring a bell. People that rewritting Amiga to X86 like the AROS guys know very well what the advantages are and what a platform agnostic OS means. You seem to be trying to explaing something everybody already understands...
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 35 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 10-Nov-2003 11:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Tigger):
<<Sole control of DE and all DE related software in Amiga Incs hands is pretty bleak given there current situation. >>

Well, from a personal point of view, I do agree with you on this point, even if the situation was different. I've always thought that the developer should be able to choose if they want their product published/marketed through Amiga, or if they want to do it on thier own (see, we do agree on some things). But that's my opinion, and may not be what Amiga can do, as I don't know the details of thier terms with TAO in that respect.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 36 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 10-Nov-2003 12:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Purist):
Oh my... This is like trying to have a conversation with a brick wall. You must really think that I'm stupid or something the way you repeat your arguments over and over again... Please, atleast try to understand what I wrote. All the answers you would ever need is in there, all you have to do is look.
NCSCAUG Interview with Omniscience : Comment 37 of 37ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Nov-2003 19:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (samface):
Well, maybe he's repeating them cause you still haven't understood his arguments...how's that for brickwalls?
Anonymous, there are 37 items in your selection
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