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[News] Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDKANN.lu
Posted on 09-Nov-2003 15:36 GMT by Martin 'Senex' Heine78 comments
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Genesi has begun discussions with REBOL to integrate portions of REBOL into a free developer package for the MorphOS Developer Connection - or maybe even a full REBOL package for a "Pegasos SDK" covering all supported operating systems on Genesi's hardware. At MorphOS-News.de Genesi invites everyone to a brainstorming about interest in and advantages of REBOL's integration into MorphOS. MorphOS-News.de reports:

"Genesi has begun discussions with REBOL to integrate portions of REBOL into a free developer package for the MorphOS Developer Connection. Genesi would pay REBOL a license fee for such a package and may bundle REBOL with the MorphOS SDK. The Corporate REBOL site can be found here.

All interested in such an arrangement, please express your interest here on this thread. Please be specific about your interest and the advantages you can see in the integration of REBOL into the next generation of MorphOS."
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 51 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 10-Nov-2003 13:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
P.S. cahva, here is the link: http://dreamolers.meanmachine.ch/ggua/
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 52 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 10-Nov-2003 14:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (redrumloa):
" Wow thanks for the slam Dave, I didn't expect that from you."

It wasnt a slam.

"I was speaking for myself as a user, not the company. Yes the employer coment here was a joke."

Thought so :-) I thought you were self employed.

"I guess the day has come sooner than expected. I can no longer speak as a user and must bow out of public discussion completely."

Oh please, dont you think you are over-reacting?


"It's probably for the best, and no I don't mean because of your one post here."

Not at all, I think you should continue to comment. Why not?

"BTW for the record at the present time I have not been in contact with Genesi, so please don't imply one thing has to do with the other. Genesi is not a business partner and there are no plans at present to carry their product"

I base that merely on another thread today on ANN where someone said that you, Targhan and Wayne stepped down to work with Genesi, in your case I assumed as a Pegasos reseller.

I am looking for a box to explore BeOS on, and Peg2 seems cheap enough in its low end incarnation to do that without making a dent or taking up one of my other systems with. However, they seem to be in limbo between on sale and not on sale. Is January a fair time to start looking for it?

Whats with everyones reactions to simple questions?
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 53 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 10-Nov-2003 14:04 GMT
@redrumloa

Jim

Heres your link: http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1068425798&category=forum&number=31#comment

The anachronism industries bit came from Amiga.org.

Dave.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 54 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 10-Nov-2003 14:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (DaveP):
cahva, was just informed it was covered here:

http://www.ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=events&file=1066239866.msg

Missed that one!

:-)
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 55 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 10-Nov-2003 14:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (DaveP):
> It wasnt a slam.

I must always read into what you say wrong. I guess the lack of smiley made it sound more serious than you intended. The internet is impersonal, hard to gauge humor sometimes..

> Oh please, dont you think you are over-reacting?

I don't know, possibly. I do know that I am serious about this startup company, and I certainly do not want my postings and views as a user to reflect badly on the company.

> base that merely on another thread today on ANN where someone said that you,
>Targhan and Wayne stepped down to work with Genesi, in your case I assumed as
> a Pegasos reseller.
> Heres your link: http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1068425798&category=forum&number=31#comment

Thank you for the heads up, I just posted to that thread. Genesi has a great product, but at the present time I am simply an end user. Who knows that may change one day, but there is no contact at this time.

> Whats with everyones reactions to simple questions?

Paranoia in my case. I am taking significant financial risks ATM. The launch delay is partially due to a major investment in non-Amiga related merchandise that I need to move VERY quickly. TBH I still have a day job so between the 3 major irons in the fire I am working practically round the clock. Hell you know what my dreams were about last night? I had nightmares of getting negative feedback!! (Serious!)
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 56 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 10-Nov-2003 14:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (redrumloa):
@Jim

Good luck, and I honestly meant nothing bad by it. :-)

Regards

Dave.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 57 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 10-Nov-2003 14:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
"The November production has already been/is/will be sold out. "

What does that mean?
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 58 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 10-Nov-2003 14:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Don Cox):
Hi Don,

It means everything that will be made is already sold or commited to a buyer.

R&B
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 59 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 10-Nov-2003 15:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (bbrv):
Excellent. Keep it going.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 60 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 10-Nov-2003 16:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (DaveP):
> Good luck, and I honestly meant nothing bad by it. :-)

Thank you:-)
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 61 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 10-Nov-2003 17:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
"Our discussions with Carl will be focused on using REBOL as a universal tool for all operating systems running on the platform. Clearly, MorphOS is our number one long term priority with all this moving toward the mobile environment, but there could be great benefit in uniting all the Pegasos supported operating systems through REBOL."

This IMO was a very smart thing to do, a bit of Areex but seen on a larger scale, targueting at OS rather then only at applications.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 62 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 10-Nov-2003 17:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (bbrv):
> It means everything that will be made is already sold or commited
> to a buyer.

> R&B

Expand the production run then?
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 63 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 10-Nov-2003 18:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
> cahva, we demonstrated MorphOS for the Classic Amigas a few weeks
> ago in Poland and will probably release it before the end of the
> year. It is almost ready and it will be free.

> R&B

Are you concerned at all that this could be viewed as "dumping," ie. an anti-competive move to damage competition? Not criticizing but just playing devil's advocate (there are some actual devils out there). There are many historical examples of companies selling products at loss, underselling and wiping out competitors, capturing market share, and then raising prices back to profitable levels.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 64 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 10-Nov-2003 18:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Daniel Miller):
Daniel, I think it was decided to be free because Genesi does not want to have to support hundreds of old, unsupported HW on the Classic amiga range. It is not released as a loss as the work was done anyway.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 65 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Nov-2003 19:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (Christophe Decanini):
There's imho still a risk of being accused of, brought to court and even convicted for dumping: the classic and pegasos market are two different markets, by entering the classic market genesi goes in direct competition with Hyperion, which also intends to distribute AOS4 for classic boars, however Hyperion can't do it for free, whilst Genesi can and intends to do it. No matter what the reasons for this choice are, what matters is the end result, and the end result is that if A and B can both do what I need, and if A is given for free whilst B costs some money, then I'm very much likely to chose A rather than B.

Look at what happened with Explorer and Microsoft.

Of course, since I'm not a lawyer,I can't say anything for sure.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 66 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 10-Nov-2003 20:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Fabio Alemagna):
Be carefull Fabio !
Soon M$ will bring you to court because AROS is free ;)
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 67 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Nov-2003 22:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (Christophe Decanini):
> Soon M$ will bring you to court because AROS is free ;)

It's not the same, Christophe, you know it :-) We're not a company, we don't make a profit from our userbase, the prerequisite for dumping are simply not there.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 68 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Nov-2003 22:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (Christophe Decanini):
> Soon M$ will bring you to court because AROS is free ;)

It's not the same, Christophe, you know it :-) We're not a company, we don't make a profit from our userbase, the prerequisites for dumping are simply not there.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 69 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by magnetic on 11-Nov-2003 06:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Fabio Alemagna):
@ Fabio + Dainel Miller

The accusation of "dumping" is not at all accurate. That is not what Genesi is doing at all. The MorphOS release for Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC on the classic Amiga range is for PROMOTION of the Operating System so that these people can see the speed and power of MorphOS and upgrade to a Pegasos board. This release should be seen as a Public Relation move and the Amiga community should be very thankful. The reason for the free release is what Christophe said, they dont have to provide support for old hacked Amiga systems. At the prices the Pegasos 2 are being sold an Amiga user would have to be mad not to upgrade to Pegasos2! I remember paying $900 for my PPC for the 4000T 2 years ago! For $900 you can build a killer Pegasos 2 system with a Radeon 9000 512mb RAM and a cool case :D
And run multiple operating systems like LInux, BSD, MorphOS, QNX, BeOS and more...


@ Dave P

You can order a Peg2 right now online. In fact, you should because they may sell out soon and you will have to wait for next production run.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 70 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 11-Nov-2003 06:23 GMT
It'd be a pretty tough case to make for "dumping" since we are giving the OS away free with every Pegasos. The PEGASOS is the product being sold, MorphOS is given away ANYWAY. As has been said for ages.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 71 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Jean Holzammer on 11-Nov-2003 07:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
My opinion about rebol:
It's really a powerful language. It's not suitable as replacement for ARexx though. But on MorphOS it could have the same role AmigaBasic had on OS 1.3 Amigas. Rapid Application Development for beginners, but also powerful enough for professionals.
Which "flavour" of Rebol would you like to see in the MorphOS SDK ? A native MorphOS version based on the free Rebol/Core or /View. Or the more powerful (but commercial) /ViewPro or /Command versions ?

Maybe a bit off topic: pegasosppc mentions, AmigaDE is currently being ported. Will it run on top of MorphOS or as a separate/standalone operating system ? Well, maybe not that off topic at last, as both Rebol and AmigaDE (and Java) all can be considered as platform independant runtime engines.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 72 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 11-Nov-2003 07:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (magnetic):
> The accusation of "dumping" is not at all accurate. That is not what Genesi is
> doing at all. The MorphOS release for Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC on the classic
> Amiga range is for PROMOTION of the Operating System so that these people can
> see the speed and power of MorphOS and upgrade to a Pegasos board.

Then, if anything, it's for promotion of the *Pegasos*, not of MOS, but as said the reason is not important, what's important is the result.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 73 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 11-Nov-2003 07:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (greenboy):
> It'd be a pretty tough case to make for "dumping" since we are giving the OS
> away free with every Pegasos. The PEGASOS is the product being sold, MorphOS is
> given away ANYWAY. As has been said for ages.

If you put it that way, it's even worse then. As said, just look at what happened with Explorer and Microsoft.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 74 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 11-Nov-2003 12:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Fabio Alemagna):
Fabio says:

> If you put it that way, it's even worse then. As said, just look
> at what happened with Explorer and Microsoft.

Are you intentionally ironic here? ;)

It was a successful strategy for Microsoft, once they had an agreeable US Justice Dept. in their pocket. They "cut off the air supply" of Netscape and continue to reap their ill-gotten spoils.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 75 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 11-Nov-2003 12:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (magnetic):
magnetic says:

> The accusation of "dumping" is not at all accurate. That is not what
> Genesi is doing at all. The MorphOS release for Cyberstorm and
> Blizzard PPC on the classic Amiga range is for PROMOTION of the
> Operating System so that these people can see the speed and power of
> MorphOS and upgrade to a Pegasos board. This release should be seen as
> a Public Relation move and the Amiga community should be very thankful.
> The reason for the free release is what Christophe said, they dont have
> to provide support for old hacked Amiga systems.

Magnetic, I'm sure you just made a poor choice of words and that you know that I didn't make any "accusation." However Mr. "Parasitic Marketing" and Mr. "Amiga Compatibility within MorphOS is Based on Illegally Obtained Source Tapes" may make such an accusation, whether or not I forecast it here in a friendly post.

I understand the point about support for troubleshooting individual installs on the old hardware being costly and your logic that no-one will expect such support if the product is offered at no cost. The counterpoint to that is that the people in possession of PPC-accelerated Amigas are power users with a lot of know-how, which means they won't need so much support.

I agree with you that a lot of those users will be very thankful for a free, up-to-date MorphOS download for their hardware, but they would also be thankful if they paid a low price for an official CD and manual.

IMO Genesi could test or "prime" their distribution channels by offering such a software product at 29.95 or 39.95 or something. I'm just throwing ideas out there though!
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 76 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 11-Nov-2003 20:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Fabio Alemagna):
But earlier MOS versions were released for PPCed Amigas for free too.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 77 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 12-Nov-2003 07:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (brotheris):
> But earlier MOS versions were released for PPCed Amigas for free too.

But those were beta's, beta's get released for free, and they were also "timed"; besides, there was not a PPC OS market yet at that time.

In any case, I'm not saying they are wrong or accusing them of anything, I'm just saying that the other party *might* have a case here, and therefore decide to take some kind of actions.
Genesi evaluating interest in Rebol for Pegasos SDK : Comment 78 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Ann on 12-Nov-2003 20:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
"Our discussions with Carl will be focused on using REBOL as a universal tool for all operating systems running on the platform. Clearly, MorphOS is our number one long term priority with all this moving toward the mobile environment, but there could be great benefit in uniting all the Pegasos supported operating systems through REBOL. "

I'm sure Carl will remember all his fine days at Viscorp. Burn me once shame on you.....burn me twice shame on me.
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