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[Events] What we saw at SoCal...ANN.lu
Posted on 23-Nov-2003 20:34 GMT by bbrv147 comments
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After the Pegasos of course, the big story at SoCal was Novell and IBM. :-D "IBM will support SuSE and what will be left of Redhat," said the leading IBM rep at the Show. In the meanwhile, the Novell booth brought a air of credibility to what was the largest show other than CES that we have participated. Novell has assembled a complete Linux stack. People want it. Novell is providing it. If anyone is missing the "Linux is coming to a Desktop Near You" story, they should even avoid WrongPla.net, much less ANN.

The time is NOW.

If you are a Developer and you have something to offer get on the bandwagon of your choice (or both). The Linux Desktop *is* the Trojan Horse for this Community. Don't miss the boat! And, BTW, let us be bold enough to suggest that IBM will very likely be selling the Pegasos one day (or something like it) as a thin client in a total system package. Why the Dell not?! IBM sells services. When they sell an enterprise network to a corporate customer they often continue to “own” the entire system. The customer contracts for the entire package. IBM insures that everything is working and that the latest and greatest is there running as it should. Why should IBM continue to sell a PC when they begin to promote a Linux desktop? First, they throw out Windows (replaced with Linux) and then the Intel-based CPU/PC can be replaced with a PowerPC based system that runs on an IBM CPU. All IBM is doing is connecting the dots from client desktop to enterprise network and ultimately to the "GRID" that IBM now extols (the Matrix is coming!).

And, while we are at it beyond the "Matrix" -- not only are the major game consoles moving to the PowerPC, it is also the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers (satellite or terrestrial). The latest one from Disney is called MovieBeam. Imagine a Super TiVo (PowerPC too BTW) using an expanded version of AmiNetRV (radio and video) and all integrated into a MPlayer-like UI that would do to a TV set what MP3 did to music. Now, that is really any show any time. TV signals digital or analogue can be integrated, but the Internet is the foundation of the future in this arena in our opinion. While we are at it since that MP3 player will not play high fidelity sound why not use that 24/7 broadband Internet connection to get that home stereo equipment back in the game too!

Final note: Pegasos II sales have passed the 1500 unit mark. These are the combined sales based on Reseller, Internet, and institutional/corporate orders. Congratulations to Thomas Knäbel and Gerald Carda. Your years of hard work and dedication are paying off and thanks to you we have the fundamental ingredient required to march forward to our future.

R&B :-)

P.S. This week "will be IBM week." ;-)

What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 1 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Wayne Hunt on 23-Nov-2003 20:13 GMT
Sounds like it was a great show. Sorry that I missed it. I would have loved the opportunity to meet with Thomas, Sven and the others. For anyone who hasn't "gotten" it yet, the excitement is building very quickly and the future is looking VERY cool. We're finally getting to the position we should have been in all along.

Wayne
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 2 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Rich Woods on 23-Nov-2003 20:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Wayne Hunt):
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 1 of 1




Posted by Wayne Hunt (Trusted user) on 23-Nov-2003 21:13:54

Sounds like it was a great show. Sorry that I missed it. I would have loved the opportunity to meet with Thomas, Sven and the others. For anyone who hasn't "gotten" it yet, the excitement is building very quickly and the future is looking VERY cool. We're finally getting to the position we should have been in all along.

Wayne
----------------
amazing what a GOOD business plan with proper use of funding can do!

Congratulations to the whole Pegasos team.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 3 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Nov-2003 20:42 GMT
Well, Linux is free and there is a lot of software. Good. But I can't help it, to me Linux feels like an incomprehensible jungle and terribly fragmented. Quite user unfriendly and not elegant beyond the nice KDE/Gnome surface. If this is going to be the operating system of the future then I don't like the future. The irony for me is that there is no alternative but Windows and that the worst choice of all has matured into the best mass-market alternative (beyond Apple which I don't know): Linux is out of control and growing in all direction. AmigaOS4 and MorphOS (and AROS, btw) have looked themselves into the AmigaOS3 compatibility corner. There is the elegance of AmigaOS but there are also all the design errors of AmigaOS. Too bad that no big player is brave enough to start from point zero and make an OS of this century withouth the compatibility ballast.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 4 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 23-Nov-2003 21:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
I agree. Where I as a customer would love to see more competition on the desktop I am afraid that I cannot see any compelling reasons as to why this will be coming from Linux.

---
Sam
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 5 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Nov-2003 21:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Rich Woods):
Haha, good joke 8-)

I guess just another piece of blueish proopaganda - or anybody has already run his Pegasos 2 on desk????

@ bbrv

Would you mind to give us list of your institutional customers???
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 6 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Nov-2003 21:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
>Haha, good joke 8-) [...] Would you mind to give us list of your institutional customers???

<bump> (too bad ann doesn't have an automatic sub-zero-IQ-mad-laughter filter).
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 7 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Blueish-red troll on 23-Nov-2003 21:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
Bah, me there is the blueish-red troll !!!

:-)

I need yo to excuse! Forgito my name!!! Amazing!!

Haha !!!

Anyway, you care to explane which part of posting you love about ????
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 8 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 23-Nov-2003 23:11 GMT
Your comments in " "


"After the Pegasos of course, the big story at SoCal was Novell and IBM. :-D "IBM will support SuSE and what will be left of Redhat," said the leading IBM rep at the Show. "

IBM have supported both of these, and I note your 'whats left of redhat'. First, Red Hat are debatable, and the rest of this is not news.

"In the meanwhile, the Novell booth brought a air of credibility to what was the largest show other than CES that we have participated. Novell has assembled a complete Linux stack. People want it. Novell is providing it. If anyone is missing the "Linux is coming to a Desktop Near You" story, they should even avoid WrongPla.net, much less ANN."

Linux fits the carefully crafted desktop. With a lot of work it could be a desktop. SUSE is what I presume you are saying is the Novell desktop with Zimian working to make things hang together. One should note that IBM have told the UK govt that Linux is not ready for the desktop, and thats what I think. Linux should only roll when its ready. You do not need any more Munich's.

"The time is NOW."

No. The time is possibly coming, perhaps in the near future, but it is not now, or today.

"If you are a Developer and you have something to offer get on the bandwagon of your choice (or both). The Linux Desktop *is* the Trojan Horse for this Community."

And there I thought this was an old OS community, with you making a new one called MorphOS.

"Don't miss the boat! And, BTW, let us be bold enough to suggest that IBM will very likely be selling the Pegasos one day (or something like it) as a thin client in a total system package."

Hmmm. Its possible. Its going to require some work.

"Why the Dell not?! IBM sells services. When they sell an enterprise network to a corporate customer they often continue to “own” the entire system."

I'm glad someone round here gets IBM and their business.

"The customer contracts for the entire package. IBM insures that everything is working and that the latest and greatest is there running as it should. Why should IBM continue to sell a PC when they begin to promote a Linux desktop?"

Maybe because they have desktop and laptop divisions? Maybe because many of their customers use windows and want IBM PC x86 based computers. Maybe because they have an excellent rep for making decent laptops. Linux runs on these systems, and IBM is just as involved in X86 operations as it is in PPC. Linux runs on x86.

"First, they throw out Windows (replaced with Linux) and then the Intel-based CPU/PC can be replaced with a PowerPC based system that runs on an IBM CPU. All IBM is doing is connecting the dots from client desktop to enterprise network and ultimately to the "GRID" that IBM now extols (the Matrix is coming!)."

IBM have already moved away from windows internally by a substantial amount. IBM have NO-WHERE ever stated that they will run their end to end GRID ideal via a PPC 'only' base and I urge a great deal of caution on you trying to make this stick. Its very inaccurate.

"And, while we are at it beyond the "Matrix" -- not only are the major game consoles moving to the PowerPC, it is also the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers (satellite or terrestrial)."

That's as may be. My interpretation is currently unless your Name is 'Apple', you're going to be limited to mid or low end PPC processors. I'm CPU agnostic but I believe this issue is being misrepresented.

"The latest one from Disney is called MovieBeam. Imagine a Super TiVo (PowerPC too BTW) using an expanded version of AmiNetRV (radio and video) and all integrated into a MPlayer-like UI that would do to a TV set what MP3 did to music.

I'm sitting here wondering how so many people who have detested MS for years and rankled about their business practice now find it suitable to shimmy up with Red Hat (now clearly moving to an MS idea on business while shafting the people who put them there) and Disney (need I comment). IBM and NOVELL are pushing Linux to provide a product and make MONEY. As someone in business, I am happy to see Linux progress and see things like Novell directory services and other things progress, but I think people need to be clearly aware of where this is going now.

"Now, that is really any show any time. TV signals digital or analogue can be integrated, but the Internet is the foundation of the future in this arena in our opinion. "

You mean Disney, and you grab the coat tails.

"While we are at it since that MP3 player will not play high fidelity sound why not use that 24/7 broadband Internet connection to get that home stereo equipment back in the game too!"

Whatever you use will have codecs. MP3 is fine for a great many people, and its open. Remember 'open'? Something that suddenly seems to be taking a very back seat round here.

"Final note: Pegasos II sales have passed the 1500 unit mark."

Congrats. I asked more than a week ago about a review and I still cannot find a single comment. Is it not time you allowed some people to review this unit?

"P.S. This week "will be IBM week." ;-)"

Without being too harsh, its time you put up or shutup. The P2 is late. There are no reviews I can see as yet, and if I want announcements about IBM, I go to the organ grinder, not the monkey. Lets not have an IBM week, lets have a Genesi week, Thanks.

Am I asking too much?

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 9 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 01:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (AdmV):
Arno, thanks for the post here:

http://www.ppcnux.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2564

We are working hard to turn your desire into a reality:

http://pegasosppc.com/images.php?f=gallery&id=78

:-)

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 10 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Wayne Hunt on 24-Nov-2003 02:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (bbrv):
Sorry for the inconvenience. My fault, but the URL for the images has been changed to

http://pegasosppc.com/images.php?f=gallery&id=79
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 11 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by tarbos on 24-Nov-2003 04:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (bbrv):
I seriously beg your pardon?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 12 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 24-Nov-2003 06:27 GMT
"Pegasos II sales have passed the 1500 unit mark."

Pegasos I == Pegasos II or what?

Surely it's not like 2100+ total sold Pegasos units?? (1500 peg2 and 600+ peg1)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 13 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 08:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Wayne Hunt):
Hi Wayne,

Aren't you the one who said "how much longer is the average AmigaOne AMIGA user prepared to run Linux"?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 14 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 24-Nov-2003 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (samface):
Isn't it all about choice?

Pegasos owners can run MorphOS or Linux, or any of the other operating systems that have bene ported, or are in the process of being ported.

AmigaOne owners, many of whom bought them just so they would be first to get AmigaOS4 (and get it for free, via the Earlybird offer), didn't have any choice until now/soon/in two more weeks/next year/never.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 15 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 24-Nov-2003 08:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
> "Pegasos II sales have passed the 1500 unit mark."

> Pegasos I == Pegasos II or what?

Pegasos II is Pegasos II, I guess ...

> Surely it's not like 2100+ total sold Pegasos units?? (1500 peg2 and
> 600+ peg1)

Why would that be so impossible? Things are running a lot smoother without MAI and the Articia (that was what halted them around the 600 mark early this year), they can/will be offering lots of operating systems for any kind of needs, and AFAIK, the first production run was bought in whole by one single customer (this is hopefully something we will see more of). My guess is that right this moment the total number of Pegasos (1 and 2) computers sold, is somewhere in between 2100-2200, *and counting*!

:-)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 16 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 24-Nov-2003 08:55 GMT
bbrv : any clue when the Peg II will be available ? In December ? January ? Later ? :-)

Many people will order an A1 now that an OS4 beta is supposed to be given to A1 owners soon. That's sad as the peg II is (supposedly) a much better product and MOS is (supposedly) much more mature.

Please keep us informed :-)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 17 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 24-Nov-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Sam Smith):
@Sam

Because Linux on the desktop has become far more usable, its system management
model is becoming more transparent and the WindowsXP security model ( inherited
from NT ) and admin model is tending towards that of UNIX in general.

As an experiment, I tried out Linux on my barely computer literate partner who
is used to the Wintel world. Once I showed Package Manager as a means by which
software is installed and told her the "root" password the amount of time I have
had to intervene and help with computing problems has gone down to zero.

I see no compelling technical reasons why Linux cannot compete on the desktop over
the next few years, only marketing ones and personal ones based on what users
are used to.

I think a lot of people forget the learning curve with Windows, how it behaves in
certain situations and how you had to learn to handle it correctly, the same
with AmigaOS.

However it is probably the case that Linux needs to become twice as user friendly
as Windows to overcome the bigotry and provide mass appeal for migration.

The excuses for /not/ using free Linux are reducing. It used to be "wheres the
user friendly UI?" ( KDE/Gnome ), then it was "wheres the driver support" ( a
reducing issue ) and then it was "wheres the Office support" ( KOffice or better
OpenOffice ) and now it is "its hard to learn".

The last shows its ready, and the market opportunity has to be seized rather than
waited for, this applies as much to Linux as it does to any other alternate operating
system. Marketplaces do not reward timidity or lack of confidence.

Dave.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 18 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Nov-2003 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (mahen):
I think that everyone is glad that a beta version of OS4 hopefully is on it's way to the A1 owners. They have been waiting for so long now. And hopefully, OS4 will also be running on another motherboard as well in a near future!

:)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 19 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 24-Nov-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (DaveP):
I hear what you're saying but Linux does nothing any better than Windows. Why would anyone want to switch? The cost to both business and us 'normal' users is almost the same as buying Windows and with the extra training involved may actually be more.

Your partner must be a little more computer literate than you think ;) I have really tried to 'get-on' with Linux but I find it a huge pain in the arse to use - it is simply not as good as Windows and offers no reason for me to switch.

---
Sam
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 20 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 24-Nov-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Anonymous):
I hope so too :)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 21 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Nov-2003 10:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Sam Smith):
@Sam

> I hear what you're saying but Linux does nothing any better than Windows.
> Why would anyone want to switch?

Well, in my case it's because WindowsXP started misbehaving in unfathomable ways, and before you say "user is ignorant" I believe I'm capable enough to fix most Windows issues as I earn my living doing so. Fixing it didn't work, re-installing didn't work, so I was on the verge of concluding I had a hardware problem. In the process of trying to locate the problem, I installed the latest Mandrake and found that everything worked hunky-dory.

The conclusion is that many Linux distros ARE ready for the desktops of many but the most computer illiterate of users.

In my case the improvment in stability is a major factor, and I actually find the KDE desktop much more configurable and flexible than the Windows one.


> The cost to both business and us 'normal' users is almost the same as
> buying Windows and with the extra training involved may actually be more.

That depends on what the requirements are. You're comparing the cost of the OS alone, but Windows on its own is useless whereas all Linux distros come with the majority of software normal desktop users will ever need, particularly in the average office.

As for re-training, the users need no more re-training than they would do when switching from one Windows based solution to another.

It's true that Linux isn't ready for everyone's desktop yet - though it is making considerable strides towards that goal - but it is a far better alternative than many bigoted individuals would be prepared to admit. As DaveP said, I guess Linux will have to be twice as good as Windows before some people will admit that it _IS_ a viable alternative.

I realise some will think "another anti-Windows fanatic...", but thta's not true. I think Windows is far better now than it has ever been in the past, and actually a lot better than many people in these forums give it credit for. However, it is my belief that people should have choice, and that the integrated hardware-operating system-software application paradigm is ultimately doomed and that eventually people will be able to choose their hardware/OS/applications independently of each other.

Back on-topic, I found bbrv's show repost amusing if not hilarious. He should enter a marketing slogan competition to see how many meaningless slogans can be fitted in one report, as he'd be sure to be amongst the contenders. I didn't see much substance or anything particularly thought-provoking, which is a shame as I'm certain there ware plenty of genuinely interesting things to report.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 22 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 24-Nov-2003 10:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (AdmV):
>One should note that IBM have told the UK govt that Linux is not ready for the desktop, and thats what I think.

That was 18 months ago, they didn't even want to start a trial then.
They have subsequently started the trials which are ongoing.

>> "The time is NOW."

>No. The time is possibly coming, perhaps in the near future, but it is not now, or today.

This debate will go on forever...
Linux is ready for some desktops but clearly not all.
I wouldn't recommend it to my Mother but It'll be fine for offices where a limited number of applications are used and users are not expected to maintain it.

>> "And, while we are at it beyond the "Matrix" -- not only are the major game consoles
>> moving to the PowerPC, it is also the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers
>> (satellite or terrestrial)."

>That's as may be. My interpretation is currently unless your Name is 'Apple', you're going to
>be limited to mid or low end PPC processors. I'm CPU agnostic but I believe this issue is
>being misrepresented.

For Linux Desktops, STBs and even Consoles you don't need high end CPUs.

>Whatever you use will have codecs. MP3 is fine for a great many people, and its open.
>Remember 'open'? Something that suddenly seems to be taking a very back seat round here.

That all depends on your definition of open, If you start making money on something with MP3 capability I think you can be pretty sure of a visit of some lawyers from the people who own the patents on it asking for license fees.

>>"Final note: Pegasos II sales have passed the 1500 unit mark."

Excellent news. Wheels are beginnig to turn.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 23 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 24-Nov-2003 10:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
"Surely it's not like 2100+ total sold Pegasos units?? (1500 peg2 and 600+ peg1)"

That's what they are saying. However, it isn't clear whether all of those 1500 have been delivered to the customers yet.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 24 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Nov-2003 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (AdmV):
> Whatever you use will have codecs. MP3 is fine for a great many people,
> and its open. Remember 'open'? Something that suddenly seems to be taking
> a very back seat round here.

I don't think the concept of "open" as applied to MP3 is worth mentioning, never mind talking about. MP3 is about as "open" as GIF was before the patent for it expired (and it hasn't expired yet in some countries).
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 25 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Don Cox):
@tarbos -- Excuse us, we confused ArnoV with AdmV. Whoops!

@AdmV -- you are swimming upstrea.. IBM IS GOING TO SUPPORT THE LINUX DESKTOP. THIS WILL OPEN THE DOOR TO A POWERPC MACHINE ON THE DESKTOP THAT IS NOT A MAC. IBM is naturally inclined to do this as the make the PowerPC. You miss the point on other items too and it is 0330 so we have no energy to answer anything else for now. :-) Read DaveP's post!

Concerning sales...

The higher the initial number the better for us, as we lower cost of goods per unit. We will make the first 500 for public release the week of 15 December. If you have not ordered you will not get one. We will make 1000 in January/February and intend to make 1000/month if we are doing as well as we hope to be. If you count what is out there and what has been sold/ordered we are over 2000. Don, the Pegasos II has been delivered toonly ONE customer.

@Christian -- good point! The Pegasos runs more than twelve operating systems now. It is all about choice.

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 26 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Coder on 24-Nov-2003 10:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (samface):
@Samface
>Hi Wayne,
>Aren't you the one who said "how much longer is the average AmigaOne AMIGA >user prepared to run Linux"?

I might be stepping on someones toes but I think what Wayne ment is that on the A1 your stuck with Linux and on the Peg you can also run MorphOS. Right?

Coder
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 27 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Christian Kemp):
That depends on how much worth that choice is to you. I mean, if I would want *nix or Windows, I get an x86 computer rather than an expensive PPC niche hardware design. If I would want MacOSX, I get a Mac unless I'm a Linux geek and don't mind breaking the MacOSX EULA. If I would want AmigaOS4, I get an AmigaOne. Why would I ever want a Pegasos if not for MorphOS?

The ability for a certain hardware platform to run operating systems made for other hardware platforms is not something new, the original Amiga had the ability to run both MacOS and MS-DOS. However, Amiga users didn't choose the Amiga for this feature and I don't think the Pegasos is going to be more successful with this strategy. People always has and always will choose their hardware platform with the main (and most oftenly the only) operating system and software they intend to use in mind.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 28 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 10:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (samface):
Hi Sammy, about this we think you are 100% wrong! Are you telling us that people buy the PC because they want Windows? :-) This is about choice.

Choice will usher in a whole new era in personal computing...it will become "personal" again.

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 29 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 10:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Coder):
But Linux on the AmigaOne is *our* "trojan horse". :-P
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 30 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 10:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (samface):
Good, it should be! Read the original report. It is exactly what we are encouraging to "both" groups. That is the whole point.

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 31 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 11:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (bbrv):
>Are you telling us that people buy the PC because they want Windows?

Yes and No. Most people doesn't even know what an OS is, much less that there are alternatives. They just want to be able to use those games and applications that requires Windows 98 or higher, DirectX7, etc. Ask any PC owner out there what they think about the Pegasos and their answer will most likely be; does it run Windows application X and/or Windows game Y?

You really need to rethink your modus operandi if you ever intend to target anything else besides the "geek market".
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 32 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Nov-2003 11:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (bbrv):
@bbrv

> The Pegasos runs more than twelve operating systems now. It is all about
> choice.

ROTFL!

I love it when people go OTT.

I assume that little number counts different Linux and BSD distros as individual operating systems, and includes a number of unfinished or unreleased ports, not to mention at least one emulated system.

But hey, "more than twelve operating systems" it is. It'll impress the braincell-challenged multitude, as will being able to count past ten without resorting to a calculator.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 33 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 24-Nov-2003 11:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (minator):
On the IBM and UK gov - read here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33867.html

Clearly people need to recheck their facts.

On the desktop, I agree, Linux is ready for 'some' desktops. The issue for me is that a desktop is not something that should be too defined. It should be workable and functionable for the purpose. Linux with issues like cut and paste, and the multitude of windows managers needs some work. IMHO SUN have created an interesting focus on this, but I don't know if they can change things. Linux needs one decent desktop based WM or similar, rather than 50 half reasonable ones. It is moving in the right direction though.

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 34 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 24-Nov-2003 11:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (bbrv):
Bill stop yelling at me.

I am more than aware that IBM supports Linux in more than just the desktop. They support Linux on every platform they have any involvement with, from top to bottom. Wether they do work towards a PPC desktop/workstation does'nt matter. Its a side issue for them. Please refocus, they are firstly a services based company.

"@AdmV -- you are swimming upstrea.. IBM IS GOING TO SUPPORT THE LINUX DESKTOP. THIS WILL OPEN THE DOOR TO A POWERPC MACHINE ON THE DESKTOP THAT IS NOT A MAC. IBM is naturally inclined to do this as the make the PowerPC. You miss the point on other items too and it is 0330 so we have no energy to answer anything else for now. :-) Read DaveP's post!"

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 35 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 11:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (samface):
Sammy!

Wake up!

1) Target "geek" market -- _sell boards_, progressively improve MorphOS, attract other operating system communities and developers by supporting ports/developments to the Pegasos, refine the Business Plan, and widen the sphere of interest outside of the Amiga Community to the Linux and BSD markets where commercial opportunities exist.

Example: the Pegasos Guardian (which goes on sale this week). Here is a portion of the Press Release:

Genesi's first commercial product based on the Pegasos is designed to support the security infrastructure requirements of Fortune 1000 companies and large institutions. The Pegasos-Guardian handles the following security needs:

1. Border protection of networks.
2. Proactive protection of network assets.
3. Logging/Auditing of all suspicious network traffic.

"IT Managers need to be able to tell exactly what happens on their networks, and why. The Guardian gives you a very high level of control, said Bill Buck, of Genesi. "Most of the office and network infrastructure in use are x86 based, and most of the machines that are at risk of compromise are x86 based as well. It is safer to run a different processor platform that is not susceptible to the common buffer overflow exploits that are the main entry point for crack attempts."

Genesi developed the Guardian with partners ShopIP (www.shopip.com) and Diginexus (www.diginexus.com). The interface design and border-level protection is based on the acclaimed ShopIP Crunchbox. Proactive protection is based on the security scanning features of Nessus (www.nessus.org) and the internal invisible IDS scanning features were developed and contributed by Diginexus.

Buck added, "This collaborative effort is an example of the partnerships we expect to develop in the months ahead and indicative of the many and varied potential uses for an open, powerful and efficient hardware platform." The Pegasos-Guardian will make its public debut with ShopIP and Diginexus at Infosecurity 2003, at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center in NY. December 8-11, in Booth 126 and will be distributed by Pegasos Resellers and IBM Business Partners worldwide.

====etc.====

2) Target mass markets in partnership with MUCH larger organizations.

Genesi is an IBM Global Business Partner and is listed in the Global Business Partner Directory -- http://www.ibm.com/Search?v=11&lang=en&cc=us&q=Genesi -- the Pegasos, MorphOS, PegXLin, and OpenBSD for PegasosPPC all carry the "Ready for IBM Technology" logo.

We will have more on this next week.

In the meanwhile, MorphOS slides under the "radar screen." OS4 could too.

3) MorphOS moves into consumer electronics products and the mobile arena.

Hope you see the direction better now and thanks for giving us the chance to answer your questions...;-)

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 36 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (AdmV):
It HAS been a side issue. This is changing. Ask yourself why IBM would not want to sell more PowerPC processors?

:-)

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 37 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Nov-2003 11:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (AdmV):
@AdmV

So what you're saying is that Linux needs to be exactly like Windows, but just with a different name. One WM, one solution, one project.

Wrong.

What Linux needs is to concentrate the funding on those areas that need work: software packaging, installation and management, WINE (yes, it _is_ needed), driver support etc.

KDE and to a lesser extent GNOME are perfectly good WMs. In fact, as a WM I find KDE far superior to Explorer. Cut & paste works fine, even across applications intended for different WMs, and with careful work the look-and-feel can be homogenised to give a consistent result.

The reason why Linux has so many WMs is precisely the same reason why Linux is here at all: the need to "scratch an itch". When folks think the existing solutions don't satisfy their needs, they roll their own. Just because there are a multitude of desktops available doesn't mean you have to use them all.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 38 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (bbrv):
I'm definitly awake and sober. Though, I fail to see what the Pegasos-Guardian has to do with the ability to choose between different operating systems on the same desktop platform.

Again, when it comes to desktop computers, people will choose computer platform based on the main (and most oftenly the only) operating system and software they intend to use. The hardware with the best price and performance ratio as well as ease of use with their specific software platform is and always has been the common's man choice. The ability to run multiple operating systems is and always will be a second priority unless you have a specific need for it. Multi-booting is very rare among ordinary users and only something for geeks that isn't pleased with the functionality of their main OS.

I see your strategy about targeting the geek market in the initial phase, though I fail to see how you are going to get things from the geek market to mainstream by targeting yet more geek markets, which add to that is open source. Care to elaborate on this part a little more?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 39 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 11:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (samface):
For starters ______LINUX!______

Come on Sammy, even you can see the momentum there. :-)

Read this if you have questions:

http://freedesktop.org/~jg/roadmap.html

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 40 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 24-Nov-2003 11:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Bill Hoggett):
Oh please. I never said anything like that.
On your points about where it could improve, I agree with you.

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 41 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (samface):
Here are examples of the support sites:

http://linux.pegasosppc.com
http://odc.pegasosppc.com
http://ekkobsd.pegasosppc.com
http://amigade.pegasosppc.com

You will notice that the last one is designed to support for ANY AmigaDE PowerPC Project.

This approach has clearly been a successful way to attract and maintain developer involvement.

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 42 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 24-Nov-2003 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (AdmV):
>On the IBM and UK gov - read here:
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33867.html
>
>Clearly people need to recheck their facts.

I did, read the follow-up to that story...
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 43 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (bbrv):
>Come on Sammy, even you can see the momentum there. :-)

Not really. I've used Linux in various contexts and all I have to say about it is this:

http://www.ubergeek.tv/switchlinux/

It's funny, but I'm serious. There is a good deal of truth in it.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 44 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 24-Nov-2003 12:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (samface):
For the linux of 2 years ago maybe.

Dave.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 45 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 12:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (DaveP):
No, not much has changed despite certain distro's attempts at making easy install procedures and so forth. As soon as you start to configure the OS itself and install things that are not a part of the default installation, you're back at bashing those config files in /etc, following endless loops of dependencies, compiling your own kernel, etc. I'm telling you, Linux is great when it finally functions as you want it to (as a webserver, for example), but it's still light years away from beeing suitable as an every day desktop OS for the every day user.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 46 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 24-Nov-2003 12:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (samface):
Sammy, here, over here! Sammy! Where are you!? SAMMY!

http://www-3.ibm.com/e-business/doc/content/lp/prodigy.html?P_Site=S94

Sammy?

:lol:

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 47 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymously on 24-Nov-2003 12:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (samface):
What sammi doesn't understand is that there are many flavours of Linux and some are intended to be easy to intall and use and some are intended for far more technical users. Debian is testing an install system that makes it absolutely simple to install Debian. Lindows is a consumer-oriented commercial Linux that is also simple to install.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 48 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 24-Nov-2003 12:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (samface):
Bollocks. I have never had to recompile my kernel, and I have only had to mess
around with config files on Debian.

Dave.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 49 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 24-Nov-2003 12:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Anonymously):
I use Debian on my webserver as we speak, testing version. I have tried Lindows and it's highly questionable reliability when it comes to running Windows applications. Again, what is it that I do not understand?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 50 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 24-Nov-2003 12:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (samface):
Debian != Entry Level Desktop Linux

See Mandrake. See Suse.

Lindows? Get yourself a real Linux, or Knoppix ;-)
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