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[Events] What we saw at SoCal...ANN.lu
Posted on 23-Nov-2003 20:34 GMT by bbrv147 comments
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After the Pegasos of course, the big story at SoCal was Novell and IBM. :-D "IBM will support SuSE and what will be left of Redhat," said the leading IBM rep at the Show. In the meanwhile, the Novell booth brought a air of credibility to what was the largest show other than CES that we have participated. Novell has assembled a complete Linux stack. People want it. Novell is providing it. If anyone is missing the "Linux is coming to a Desktop Near You" story, they should even avoid WrongPla.net, much less ANN.

The time is NOW.

If you are a Developer and you have something to offer get on the bandwagon of your choice (or both). The Linux Desktop *is* the Trojan Horse for this Community. Don't miss the boat! And, BTW, let us be bold enough to suggest that IBM will very likely be selling the Pegasos one day (or something like it) as a thin client in a total system package. Why the Dell not?! IBM sells services. When they sell an enterprise network to a corporate customer they often continue to “own” the entire system. The customer contracts for the entire package. IBM insures that everything is working and that the latest and greatest is there running as it should. Why should IBM continue to sell a PC when they begin to promote a Linux desktop? First, they throw out Windows (replaced with Linux) and then the Intel-based CPU/PC can be replaced with a PowerPC based system that runs on an IBM CPU. All IBM is doing is connecting the dots from client desktop to enterprise network and ultimately to the "GRID" that IBM now extols (the Matrix is coming!).

And, while we are at it beyond the "Matrix" -- not only are the major game consoles moving to the PowerPC, it is also the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers (satellite or terrestrial). The latest one from Disney is called MovieBeam. Imagine a Super TiVo (PowerPC too BTW) using an expanded version of AmiNetRV (radio and video) and all integrated into a MPlayer-like UI that would do to a TV set what MP3 did to music. Now, that is really any show any time. TV signals digital or analogue can be integrated, but the Internet is the foundation of the future in this arena in our opinion. While we are at it since that MP3 player will not play high fidelity sound why not use that 24/7 broadband Internet connection to get that home stereo equipment back in the game too!

Final note: Pegasos II sales have passed the 1500 unit mark. These are the combined sales based on Reseller, Internet, and institutional/corporate orders. Congratulations to Thomas Knäbel and Gerald Carda. Your years of hard work and dedication are paying off and thanks to you we have the fundamental ingredient required to march forward to our future.

R&B :-)

P.S. This week "will be IBM week." ;-)

What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 101 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 24-Nov-2003 20:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 79 (Bill Hoggett):
Sorry for misunderstanding your points about the training but I see what you mean now.

You're right in that the Mac hasn't an excellent games market but it isn't a contender to Wintels dominance either.

If Linux was to ever replace Windows XP server solutions then I am sure that the respective companies involved would find someway to make just as much money out of training as they do now. But this is just speculation of course.

Your review of the current Linux situation was an interesting read and time will tell if Linux does indeed grow to be an alternative or not. The problem is that Linux isn't a 'leap ahead' like the Amiga once was at the time of its release. I don't believe that simply matching Windows in every area will be enough to see it succeed. Still - I could be wrong ;) and time will tell as it always does. Out of interest what version/distro of Linux to do you use?

---
Sam
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 102 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 24-Nov-2003 20:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Rich Woods):
Or having any funding at all ;)

Cheers
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 103 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 24-Nov-2003 20:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (Stephane Desrosiers):
If you have ordered it from Genesi web-site you should have got confirmation E-mail that contains details of your order.

There was some technical problem couple weeks ago, but according web people it has been taken care of. At least it worked on last week when I ordered my Pegasos 1->2 upgrade.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 104 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Jimbo on 24-Nov-2003 21:54 GMT
I'm wonder how big work could be done at a company while the most important persons from there are hitting the keyboard all the day to do some marketing work on ann and other forums???

Why aren't you working guys, like others? Like us who preordered the Pegasos II and we cannot see in our hands yet? We saw a lot of pictures, but not in our hand!!! It's getting to be a "screenshotware"!

Stop playing childish games on forums and go back to WORK!
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 105 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Nov-2003 23:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (Sam Smith):
@Sam

Mandrake 9.2 on x86

It's a lot better if you have a broadband connection, as that allows you to make full use of the urpmi/rpmdrake system for software installation. I wouldn't really recommend Linux to anyone without a fast connection as the fast rate of development and upgrades often results in lots of downloads.

I agree that Linux isn't the leap ahead of Windows that the Amiga was in 1985 compared to the contemporary alternatives. However, I think it's unreasonable to expect that level of leap ahead. You won't see anything like that unless someone comes up with some hugely revolutionary hardware concept.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 106 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Muuh on 24-Nov-2003 23:17 GMT
Hmm, searching for "reply to comment 76", but no results...
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 107 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Muuh on 25-Nov-2003 00:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (Bill Hoggett):
>I agree that Linux isn't the leap ahead of Windows that the Amiga was in 1985 >compared to the contemporary alternatives. However, I think it's unreasonable >to expect that level of leap ahead.
>You won't see anything like that unless someone comes up with some hugely >revolutionary hardware concept.

Linux won't "leap big" ever, due to unix-geektop-roots.
Amiga OS wont leap as well. An emulation inside of a newer modern more bloated OS works better and gives more choice (provided that modern OS has enough
developers coding it...ahem...).
"Revolutionary hardware concept", who needs that for a better OS?
Also I doubt big leaps in hardware concept are possible. We already had multitasking, DMA, graphical and audio coprocessors, slots for cards of all kinds, Multiprocessor systems, kbytes-mbytes-gbytes-tbytes.
Whats left to improve? Display technology, and the sharing and interaction of components. Where the pc still could learn from amiga i guess.
(Who at Nvidia came up with Nforce first, an ex amiga-geek?)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 108 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Wayne Hunt on 25-Nov-2003 00:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 95 (Gunne Steen):
> Btw; Wayne, can you reach my webpage ?

Sure can. No problems.

Wayne
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 109 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Nov-2003 00:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (Muuh):
> "Revolutionary hardware concept", who needs that for a better OS?

You'd need it to generate the need for an OS that is a big leap from what exists today. On existing hardware, there is no need to throw away the rulebook and start from scratch, specially when the resulting software has less than an 0.5% chance of being truly revolutionary.

AmigaOS will never recapture the old magic. It was efficient because it was sparse and frugal. I think the word I'm looking for is "spartan". These days people expect more features than your average AmigaOS will ever have and retain its efficiency, so you have catch 22.

That wasn't the point I was making though. I was simply saying that there is little point in expecting a massive improvement in what is available today from any quarter. It won't happen. MacOS X isn't it, BeOS isn't it, QNX isn't it, and certainly not AmigaOS or MorphOS.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 110 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 25-Nov-2003 02:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 104 (Jimbo):
Hey Jimbo, go jump in a lake!

We can do what we want!

:-)

We are working! This is fun!

R&B

P.S. What order under this IP address?!
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 111 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Stephane Desrosiers on 25-Nov-2003 02:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (JoannaK):
@JoannaK
Yup, I mean I got the confirmation email that my order went through the PegasosPPC site. And my CC bill does have the charge. (According to my order it was Sales Draft #2).

There does seem to be an issue somewhere though? So I've forwarded my confirmation e-mail and scans of my bill over to Genesi and I guess we'll see what happens. Probably just a minor hiccup.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 112 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 25-Nov-2003 08:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (Bill Hoggett):
'You won't see anything like that unless someone comes up with some hugely revolutionary hardware concept.'

We can dream! :) Seriously though - I do hope that this sort of leap forward does happen again. I wonder if there is anyone out there actually trying to do this or has everybody given up because it seems too expensive? Everyone seems to be leaving the hardware advancement to Intel, AMD, Nvidia and Ati. Except for the next speed bump of old boards there isn't much advancement going on. I suppose the age old problem of R&D cost sort of prohibits anyine else doing it unfortunately.

---
Sam
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 113 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 25-Nov-2003 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Stephane Desrosiers):
Yet another pre-payment issue in the amiga 'community'. Just when, WHEN will you people learn?

Never, EVER, EVER Pre pay for anything before you know its real and ready.

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 114 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 25-Nov-2003 11:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (AdmV):
Hi AdmV, you are right. Nevertheless, a good portion of buffer overflow exploits are targeted toward the x86 processor instruction set. There still are ones for other processor platforms, and PowerPC is one of them, as is SPARC. However, the best way to examine buffer overflow exploits and do so with minimal chance of harm is to provide inspection from a non-x86 platform. Using PowerPC does not completely mitigate the risk of a buffer overflow. Rather, it provides a platform on which a good portion of exploit code cannot run, since the amount of crackers targeting PowerPC platforms is much smaller than the set trying x86. Thanks for allowing us to clarify that.

As a system administrator for a number of systems, you know there is no magic bullet for security solutions. You have to have an interlocking platform of policy, procedures, and enforcement (of policy and procedures). This has spurred the use of Open Source in security over the years in systems, since it allows a way to audit the systems via the code they run. We realize there are many system administrators that are that paranoid. Providing the customer with the source code to the system does two things:

1. This allows the customer to audit the code.
2. It also allows the customer to build on the code.

However, there is also a learning curve for these products that is very high, and even experienced system administrators can get easily confused with these products. This product provides a way of reducing the time needed to set up and configure a firewall for a network that provides more than just the basic features. This product also provides for detection and filtering of malicious traffic, and can be custom-configured for the network.

The use of Open Source tools also provides multiple integration paths through both the Open Source and commercial channels, meaning that with customization, it should be possible to include this as part of a total security system/posture.

The choice of OpenBSD also allows for a platform that has been specifically audited for buffer overflows and race conditions, out in the open. Code from this product and its offshoot projects such as OpenSSH are used in multiple commercial products. Mitigation cannot take place in one place, it has to occur at multiple levels, and we consider this to be one level.

There is no way to eliminate buffer overflows. Again, you are right. However, there are steps as part of a total security plan that can be taken to include this as part of a security process. This is only one part of the total security solution and posture that a company can adopt. Firewalls and IDSs are only one part of your total protection measure. PowerPC is not just a one-step band aid. It is a starting point. Customers need a total security posture, and this is one component of it, providing border-level or internal protection as a component of a security system, not the system itself.

About selling the Pegasos early -- we cannot control what the Reseller's decide to do. In any case this is an issue between buyer and seller. Where we erred, we communicated directly and settled the manner.

We are actually looking forward to you having a system. We appreciated your feedback and it helped us to tune our direction. Thanks!

Sincerely,

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 115 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 25-Nov-2003 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (bbrv):
Thanks for taking the time to reflect and respond with something I regard as an acceptable response. These are all too few in number in this little market/community. I am sure others may take interest in your response as well.

You may yet gain me as a customer.

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 116 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 25-Nov-2003 12:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 95 (Gunne Steen):
I'm sorry, I never got a chance to say hello to you when you demonstrated those first AmigaOS4 modules in Gothenburg last year. But hey, why aren't you at Dreamhack in Jönköping? Would've been really cool if you were there and demonstrated AmigaOS4 on an AmigaOne at this huge gathering of computer nerds (approx. 5000). =)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 117 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 25-Nov-2003 12:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Bill Hoggett):
Yes, I'm an utter clueless moron. Whatever you say... :-/
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 118 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 25-Nov-2003 12:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (AdmV):
:-)

It just takes longer to answer real questions. Thanks for the acknowledgment.

We would be very happy to have you as a customer.

R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 119 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Nov-2003 14:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (samface):
@samface

Well, you make general comments on the progress of Linux user-friedliness based on your experience of Debian and Lindows. What more is there to be said?

Would you prefer "ignorant" instead of "clueless"?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 120 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 25-Nov-2003 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Bill Hoggett):
Who said I haven't tried Mandrake, SuSE and RedHat as well? If someone is lacking a clue, you are. I mean, you're obviously just guessing about me, who I am, and what kind of experiences I have. Please restrain yourself from doing so, learning facts based on research is so much better than guessing.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 121 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 25-Nov-2003 16:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Bill Hoggett):
Besides, when I'm talking about user-friendliness, I'm not just talking about a nice GUI to abstract the user from the system beneath. When I talk about user-friendliness, I talk about beeing able to take full control of the system and have a good overall view on how it works. That's why I don't think there is any more user-friendly OS than the AmigaOS. Things like beeing able to remove everything in the startup-sequence and rebuild it from scratch in order to find out what is failing during boot, adding/removing devices and assigns in realtime, having all libraries, devices, mount-files, preferences, etc. in a logical hierarchy (no, "/usr/bin" is far from as logical as "C:"), or simply having an overall comprehension about how the system works without beeing an expert is priceless.

You know, it can sometimes be quite a bitch to just find wherever that stupid program installed itself into the system after you typed "make install". Care to explain to me how these new amazing Linux distros that I have not tried out yet has solved this for me?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 122 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 25-Nov-2003 19:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Wayne Hunt):
> Sure can. No problems.

Great and thanks ! Was other people who couldn't reach, seems to perhaps be some smaller problem with traffic over atlantic ocean atm. Some people here cant reach morphzone or mdc.morphos.net either I heard.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 123 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 25-Nov-2003 19:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (samface):
Dreamhack..., will see :-)

Have some smaller plans for the future.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 124 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 26-Nov-2003 00:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (samface):
@samface

I'm judging you by your comments, which are ignorant in the extreme.

How do I know what "make install" did? Duh!

Ever heard of apt or rpm, or urpmi or yum? In most cases you don't have to do a "make install" at all.

And even if you do, the config file tells you exactly where "make install" will put things, or you can use check install instead, or...

You really believe people think AmigaOS and the need to hand edit startup and user sequences to get everything working properly is "user friendly"? This is the usual arrogant attitude of many AmigaOS advocates. Unless you are already familiar with this procedure, it is NOT user friendly or simple or intuitive. Having to consult SnoopDos every other installation, manually settings stacks, having to fiddle with low-level screenmode configurations before you can get the right mode to work on your monitor, not to mention chasing libraries and assigns all over the system.

It's a matter of perception. You are comfortable with AmigaOS and can't be bothered to find out how Linux works. That's OK, but it's a reflection on you rather than on Linux. Your comments on Linux demonstrate that you haven't got a clue of what you speak.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 125 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 02:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Bill Hoggett):
>I'm judging you by your comments, which are ignorant in the extreme.

In the extreme? Oh my, you must think that my girlfriend is dumb as a doorbell then. I mean, she doesn't even know what "Linux" is. ;-)

Seriously, why do you insist on me beeing ignorant when you do not even know me to begin with?

>How do I know what "make install" did? Duh!

Yes, as in what happened to the compiled and automaticly installed binaries?

>Ever heard of apt or rpm, or urpmi or yum? In most cases you don't have to do
>a "make install" at all.

Who cares if I have to or not, it was just an example of showing the irrational file hierarchy of Linux and it's mysterious ways. Regardless if you use "make install" or "apt-get"/"rpm -i", some applications end up in /usr/local, others in /usr/bin, but they could also be in /usr/lib/ or /usr/share, or how about /usr/local/bin or /usr/share/lib? In AmigaOS you put it wherever you like and have to write an assign in your user-startup at the most, but most applications do that for you these days. That makes it easy and comprehendable, see?

>And even if you do, the config file tells you exactly where "make install"
>will put things, or you can use check install instead, or...

...or you could have the ability to choose where the program directory should be and the install script then makes an assign to that directory so that you can easily access that directory directly by simply typing the name of the assign. That means that even if you would happen to forget where you chose to install the application, you can easily find out by listing the assigned directories.

I know, you are probably going to counter-argue with the Linux filesystem's ability to make file and directory links. I'm sorry but I hate links since they are so easily mistaken for actual files and directories, not very intuitive if you ask me. Furthermore, I can jump to an assign from whatever directory and device I'm in. The assign name and a colon, enter, bang! I'm there. =)

>You really believe people think AmigaOS and the need to hand edit startup and
>user sequences to get everything working properly is "user friendly"?

Hey, hey, hey, hold your horses! Who said anything about needing to edit anything? The example I gave you earlier about the ability to rebuild the entire startup sequence when trying to find out what is failing is NOT a requirement for getting things working properly. It's a feature *if* things wouldn't work properly, as in case of a malfunctioning system.

Anyway, care to explain how I would go about doing the same thing in Linux?

>This is the usual arrogant attitude of many AmigaOS advocates. Unless you are
>already familiar with this procedure, it is NOT user friendly or simple or
>intuitive.

I think you are mistaking me for someone else. I use Linux much more than I use AmigaOS these days and actually help a few friends with their Linux setups once in a while because they think of me as someone to turn to when they get problems with Linux.

>Having to consult SnoopDos every other installation,

I've never used SnoopDOS when installing an application in AmigaOS in my entire Amiga life. Why would anyone ever need to do that?

>manually
>settings stacks,

That would be the fault of the one who wrote the application, the stack should already been set in either the icon or the startup script.

>having to fiddle with low-level screenmode configurations
>before you can get the right mode to work on your monitor

Huh? Why? An Amiga should be able to operate with a TV without ever having to fiddle with any screenmodes. If you have installed a third party graphics card, or plugged in a non-Amiga monitor (ie VGA) with a scandoubler, blame the hardware manufacturer for not supplying proper hardware drivers. Or, are you really saying that we should blame the OS because your hardware modifications are not working properly from scratch?

>, not to mention
>chasing libraries and assigns all over the system.

Chasing assigns? LOL! That was a new concept. Because you have forgotten about the name or because you can't remember where it's actually pointing? If no arguments are given the ASSIGN command or if the LIST keyword is used, a list of all current assignments is displayed. If the VOLS, DIRS, or DEVICES switch is specified, ASSIGN limits the display to volumes, directories, or devices.

Furthermore, *all* libraries should be in LIBS: and nowhere but LIBS:. We're not talking about Windows DLL's here. Fire up DOpus, search for *.library and make sure all library files are in the LIBS: directory. Problem solved.

Again, I really don't see how this would be complicated in comparison to hard and software links or the mysterious file hierarchy of Linux and it's applications.

>It's a matter of perception. You are comfortable with AmigaOS and can't be
>bothered to find out how Linux works. That's OK, but it's a reflection on you
>rather than on Linux. Your comments on Linux demonstrate that you haven't got
>a clue of what you speak.

Oh please! Not again. Why are you so determined to make a statement about my competence in the matter? I could be patronizing your lack of insight as well, but find it rather childish and not something that would be benefitial for any of us. Let's just stick with using reasonable arguments in order to keep the discussion constructive, shall we?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 126 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Stephane Desrosiers on 26-Nov-2003 02:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (bbrv):
@bbrv
> P.S. What order under this IP address?!

I'm not sure if that was directed at me and about that issue with my order. (Did you and the others get the E-mail I sent with the forwarded "PegasosPPC.com Online Payment Receipt" and the scan of the bill with the charge on it? The scans are in Amiga IFF24 format, erm, maybe I should have went for PNG?). Anyway on my Online Payment Receipt the "Remote IP Address" is 24.102.103.34 . (Oooh, let's see how many people ping my firewall now. :P)

If anything more is needed let me know... I would really appreciate sorting this out.

@AdmV:
I rarely preorder items. I *did* preorder the MOS native version of Pagestream, but I use the software and I don't mind the small cross-grade price. The second is the Peg2, mostly because I want that stupid sporadic audio problem cleared up and a 1gig processor... :P In most cases, Genesi handled Peg-related issues well before, so I'm not too worried. Of course if it all crashes and burns, then it'll just be another lesson learned for me...
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 127 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 02:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (Gunne Steen):
Well, if you don't have any dreamhack tickets already, it will be rather difficult to get one now. Maybe next year? =)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 128 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 26-Nov-2003 03:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (Stephane Desrosiers):
Stephane, your card was NOT charged. That was still the test sytem that sent you that message.

Best regards,
R&B
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 129 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 26-Nov-2003 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 125 (samface):
@samface

You wouldn't know a reasonable argument if it bit you on the backside. You come up with a whole plethora of excuses about why my comments about AmigaOS /shouldn't/ apply. Things shouldn't happen, it's the fault of software writers, blame the driver writers etc. The point is this: these things happen, and whose fault it is is not relevant. The user needs to understand the nuts and bolts of what is going on to fix them, and those nuts and bolts are not as straightforward or intuitive as you make out. I could spend hours telling you why, but I'd just bore everyone to death.

In the final analysis, you don't NEED to learn everything about the Linux insides all at once to use it, and you most certainly don't have to compile everything by hand and chase the dependencies on a modern distro. To anyone who doesn't already know about AmigaOS, I assure you that the way it works is just as baffling. User-friendliness is defined by how friendly the system is in everyday use, not how easy it is to understand the inner workings so you can hack everything by hand.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 130 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 129 (Bill Hoggett):
Excuses? I made several points about Linux mysterious and unneccessary complexity that you completely ignore and then you insist on me trying to simplify the workings of AmigaOS. I'm sorry but you're really not beeing very reasonable here.

Again, care to explain to me how I should go about error analyzing the start up sequence of Linux? I'll give you a (bill) buck if you can show me a way as easy as uncommenting each and every automaticly started exectutable in the startup sequence.

I would also like you to explain to me the mysterious file hierarchy of Linux and why there is so many different "lib"s and "bin"s? Why make the process' of programs a part of the file system (ie /proc)? How do I locate that application I installed the other day, was it in /usr/lib/ or maybe /usr/share/bin? Why is it that some applications will not work because a dependency is too new(?) and in order to satisfy that dependancy, I have to downgrade the entire system as well as deinstall another application which also happens to be a dependency of the application that I'm currently trying to install (yes, this happens quite often)? I mean, in AmigaOS there are no dependencies to satisfy what so ever (except the ones of the applications, of course) and in case of an old library, the application informs you and all you have to do is get a newer one from Aminet and place it in LIBS:. Why can't things be just as easy in Linux?

I'm telling you, there is *nothing* made easy in Linux unless you never install any applications in addition to what came with your distro, always stick with configuring whatever your X-window manager is able to configure for you, and never ever run into problems. My reasons for saying this has nothing do with me beeing more used to AmigaOS since it's actually the other way around. It's because I do have experience with Linux that I regard myself as competent of making this judgement. I also believe there are Linux users that has been working with it for so long that they have forgot what user-friendliness means while happily bragging about their achivement of finally having full control over their Linux installation after two years of studying it's inner workings. Neither do they hesitate to patronize the avarage "I agree-next-next-next-done" Windows user without realizing that not everyone has the time to take such an active interest in the OS and just wants to go ahead with using that specific application that just happens to require Windows.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 131 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 26-Nov-2003 12:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (samface):
Yes, maybe next year :-)

But for OS 4 it depends on if something is happen !

And the same for the Pegasos as well of course :-)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 132 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 14:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Gunne Steen):
You do own an Earlybird system, right? Then you should atleast expect to have a beta of AmigaOS4 soon. =)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 133 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 26-Nov-2003 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (samface):
http://consultingtimes.com/desktoplinux.html
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 134 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Stephane Desrosiers on 26-Nov-2003 15:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 128 (bbrv):
> Stephane, your card was NOT charged. That was still the test sytem that
> sent you that message.

Hi... Well a quick call to Paul Adams (via the number that showed up on my bill under October 16th) seems to have straightened things out. ;)

As suspected it was just a glitch, but he unearthed my order and record of payment. My Peg2 order should be straightened out as well as those few others who happened to have order those few minutes that the system was still in "test mode".

*Phiew*

I'm glad that was found before the boards were shipping out. ;)

Thanks to Genesi USA for their quick work on the matter,
Steph
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 135 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 26-Nov-2003 18:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Stephane Desrosiers):
:-D
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 136 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 26-Nov-2003 18:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (samface):
Do you own a earlybirdsystem ?
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 137 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 26-Nov-2003 19:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (samface):
You should try MorphOS :-)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 138 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 19:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 136 (Gunne Steen):
Well, not yet. I'm waiting for the OS to go with it in order for it to be useful. I have Linux on my x86 already and really don't have the need for another. But hey, it should be real soon now(TM)... =)

But don't worry, I am a Club Amiga member and a Party Pack owner, which should tell you that I'm rather determined to get one as soon as the real deal is available. =)

And before anyone starts to waste gasoline, the outcome of Amiga Inc.'s situation won't change my mind when it comes to the AmigaOne and AmigaOS4. That's two great quality products made by Hyperion and Eyetech that I want with or without a rebate. I'm even thinking of getting two A1's, the MicroA1 (or was it A1Lite?) would simply be great as a web and mail server. Sure, not a very cheap server. But hey, quality products does not come cheap, you know. =)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 139 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 20:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (bbrv):
Again, they are talking about the X-Window manager, or as Amigans would call it; the "workbench". No matter what distribution you choose, it's still the very same Linux under neath the added cosmetics. Sure, it works for someone not interested in the OS and only wants to get on with using their applications.

However, I'm talking about true user-friendliness here, as in inviting the user to learn how things work underneath with as small learning curve as possible. An OS that requires an expert for simple maintainance (or what should be simple, atleast) is not user-friendly. That's like making a camera too complicated for doing something as simple as changing the batteries, forcing the user to turn it in for service every time the batteries run out. Are you then going to argue that it's still user-friendly because it's just a simple one press on a button for taking pictures?

I'm sorry but there is so much about Linux that needs to be reconsidered and reimplemented that I don't even know where to start. These attempts at making MacOSX alike GUIs is only a way of trying to circumvent the problem by abstracting the user from the system rather than making it user-friendly. I realize that I may be pursuing an impossible goal here, but I do believe that some things doesn't have to be made in a certain way and could be implemented in a much more user-friendly way. AmigaOS has a alot of things that Linux should learn from, but AmigaOS could also learn a few things from Linux. Apt-get for Aminet, anyone?

Anyway, I hope you can see my point and realize that user-friendliness is about so much more than just a well polished GUI. OS developers of today, not just Linux developers, needs to think more about makings things easy and comprehendable without restricting the functionality available to the user. Anyone with some degree of artistical skill can do a fancy look and easy to navigate menus, few know how to implement complex functionality in a simple way.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 140 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 26-Nov-2003 20:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (samface):
@samface

Quote: "two great quality products"


...neither of which you have used yet? How do you know they're "great quality" products then? Blind faith? Dogged stubbornness? The same towering intellect that makes your Linux experience 10 times more complex than anyone else's?

LOL! Welcome to samface's private little world. It's like nothing you've ever seen before.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 141 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 20:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (Gunne Steen):
Why go for an imitation when I can get the real thing? :-P
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 142 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 26-Nov-2003 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (samface):
Well, I did ask you, because I always do see that you, and also some other people always like to start up a lot of quite silly discussions as soon the Pegasos are mentioned, or in the other way then also of course...

I would like to say, it only seems as a being a bunch of loosers all....

I've for myself been on the train from the beginning with both Pegasos and AmigaOne, and have then by this had the benefit of being able to following both these systems, and also then have seen the difference between them. And the only way to see and feel is to try them.

But trying to talk about one system being bad, doesn't make the other system looks better or being better.

As for not leading this to be a continueing discussion about Pegasos vs AmigaOne or MorphOS vs AmigaOS or whatever vs... :-) I'm stopping there.

But a benefit for this community would by all logic be to stop all these ridicolous discussions, and instead focus on what might be the benefit to share, and then also take the discussions onto a much more civilized and better level.

This could start here right now, and someone have to start it, you could do this !

What do we have ?

Whats neccesary is continues work for bringing these to a higher level then they are, which might do you to a winner instead of a looser.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 143 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 26-Nov-2003 20:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (samface):
I could reply to this in exactly the same silly way... but I do not.

Live well and prosper :-)
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 144 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 20:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (Bill Hoggett):
You know very well that Hyperion has been extremely open about their work. As a Club Amiga member, I believe that I do know enough to judge wether they have been "sloppy" or not. Considering the progress made on the last two versions of AmigaOS (3.5 & 3.9), and then comparing with the OS4 feature set, the CAM articles, show reports, etc., why should I not consider AmigaOS4 a quality product? Sure, I don't *know* this as a fact, but I am entitled to my opinion, am I not?

Furthermore, the AmigaOne has been delivered for quite a while now which atleast in my mind makes it a "mature" product. Even the fact that they come from Eyetech is good enough for me since my experience with Eyetech has always been great service and quality products. Call me naive but I am and always has been a trademark oriented customer. Otherwise I wouldn't have stayed with my Amiga for so long.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 145 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 26-Nov-2003 21:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Gunne Steen):
Well, you did ask me and I kept my answer short and simple. I don't see the reason for bringing in any x vs y issues into this matter either.
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 146 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 27-Nov-2003 21:11 GMT
A very good point in regard to what we have been discussing.

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/03/11/26/1948243.shtml?tid=126&tid=172&tid=179&tid=185&tid=190

PPC OS, PPC Based hardware. If the world was 96% Apple instead on windows, right now you'd have a lot of people running round like headless chickens trying to cover this just as windows system admins have to.

It afflicts wireless as well as hardwired networks, and from what I have seen, Apple users would'nt know Wireless security if it smacked them between the eyes.

Anyway, not a poke in the eye for Apple or PPC, just a reminder that no one is able to really offer safe harbour.

AdmV
What we saw at SoCal... : Comment 147 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Unhappy Investor on 28-Nov-2003 08:18 GMT
Hi Bill and Raquel

CONGRATULATION for your bankruptcy of PRETORY and thank you for your effort. You have done a great job!!! Is this your expertise?

A Paris Guy
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