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[Forum] Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?]ANN.lu
Posted on 29-Nov-2003 16:30 GMT by Shotgun (Edited on 2003-11-29 21:16:02 GMT by Christophe Decanini)89 comments
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I am an old time amiga user and have decided to look at what option is available. A part of Amiga hardware and modern pcs which i believe is very important are graphics chips. I was shocked to heard the pegasos2/marvel will only support sub AGPx1 performance. AGP 2x is today the minimal supported standard supported by modern graphics cards why release something below the minimal accpeted standard in 2003? Modern games will have no ability to reach anywhere near the performance levels modern chipsets allow. The pegasos2 already hopeles crippled before even released! People may claim IBM already has 1500 boards but why not show at least one in public then? The people think others are blind followers seem to be acting like this themself. And before anyone claiming i am a blind amiga inc followers. I am not although mainly amigaos4 interests me. The amigaone is just to expensive for me. DE lacks software and support to. Maybe I will own a Pegasos3 with good specs and amigaos4. Or maybe a amigatwo or amigalite if they finally get the prices back down to earth.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 1 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2003 15:34 GMT
Forget Pegasos2 and the entire company GENESI. Not that Pegasos2 or MorphOS is bad or something... NO... The reason why you should forget it is because they are unreliable and not being able to deliver. They make a lot of promises, a lot of announcements but they can only keep 25% of what they say - if so at all.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 2 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2003 15:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Hey atleast are 25% better than nothin, like A.inc does right?
At least another sensless anti Genesi Thread was born *sigh*
It is fun to see people complain on 2 Months, when they actually wait for their whole OS now since 2 Years *haha*
Oh, but wait, open Beta for OS 4.0 this christmas... err when did MOS start its public betatest??? *loool*
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 3 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2003 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
A) I don't care for AmigaINC.
B) I know what I was writing here because I was a victim of bullshit GENESI PR propaganda.
C) I have no motivations to start any GENESI flamewars. I only raised my objective opinion.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 4 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 29-Nov-2003 16:01 GMT
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1065641403&category=news&start=1&456

happy reading.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 5 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 29-Nov-2003 16:06 GMT
I'm going to wait for someone to say that AGP speed doesn't matter, etc, which is the typical Genesi excuse line these days.

Of course, when the original AmigaOne only had AGP1x planned, that was terrible and useless in the eyes of the same people.

Anyway, AGP speeds do make a difference, a real measurable difference. AGP 4x is noticable faster than 2x in modern games, and the next generation of games will make AGP 8x noticably faster too.

Seriously, if speed didn't matter, why would there be a move towards PCI-Express x16? 8GB/s of data transfer ... 20 times more than AGP 1x. I suppose I'll get the old hashed up "oh, that is just marketing" line now ... or the "but the Amiga doesn't have any software that needs more than AGP 1x" line ...
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 6 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 29-Nov-2003 16:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Graham_nli):
Hello,

AFAIK Pegasos 2 will implement AGP 2.0, so any modern graphic card will work with it.

Regards
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 7 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 29-Nov-2003 16:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Frodon):
And it was said that:

-It was faster in reality than the 2X theorytical speed on Pegasos 1.
- Some people like Martin Bloom said that we have hardly any game pushing that much vertex.
- modern GFX card have so much memory that they do everything on the card without requiring intense AGP transfer.
- Some people pointed out 5% speed difference in Quake3 between AGP1X and 8X.

I don't really bother as on the Pegasos 1 Mark Olsen's Quake2 runs at over 30 fps in 1280*1024 on a voodoo 3.
Driver development is more of a worry than AGP 1 2 4 8 ...
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 8 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2003 16:33 GMT
"AGP 2x is today the minimal supported standard supported by modern graphics cards"

Untrue. This is a typical misconception. AGP 2.0 is the minimal requirement. APG 2.0 supports 1x speed.

Anyway, does AmigaONE (any model) reach APG 2x speed either? You might be surprised here, as advertisement doesn't often meet the reality.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 9 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Slingshot on 29-Nov-2003 16:52 GMT
I don't agree with you Shotgun.

You seem to have mixed the facts: AGP 2x is not same as AGP 2.0. Pegasos2 supports APG 2.0, and that supports 1x, 2x and 4x speeds. So all modern graphics cards will work.

Paragraph "AGP 2x is today the minimal supported standard supported by modern graphics cards why release something below the minimal accpeted standard in 2003? Modern games will have no ability to reach anywhere near the performance levels modern chipsets allow." is ok when you replace "2x" with "2.0". APG 2.0 is the minimal supported standard and Pegasos2 supports it. No hardware is released without APG 2.0 support.

So this means your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. Pegasos2 supports the AGP 2.0 standard fully. In all, it will be a lot faster than any existing or currently known AmigaONE. Not to mention Pegasos2 is a lot cheaper, too.

My choice is clear, my choice is Pegasos2.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 10 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 29-Nov-2003 17:04 GMT
It's true, if you want the latest games and 8x AGP, then you have to
buy a PC. You also have to use Windows, as it's the only thing that
fully supports the latest 3D hardware.

If that's not of absolute importance, you can consider something else
than a PC and something else than Windows. For example the Peg2.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 11 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2003 17:16 GMT
> I was shocked to heard the pegasos2/marvel will only support sub AGPx1 performance.

I wouldn't say sub standard but dated, as everything in the Amiga PPC area (see SD-RAM, see USB 1.2). That said, your statement still disqualifies you as an ignoramus because there is no such thing as AGP performance per se. The AGP bus is just ... a bus. The performance primarily comes from the graphics card, just as the CPU performance primarily comes from the CPU and not the bus. The bus bandwidth certainly has an effect, but it's not earth shaking thanks to the migration to sending geometry data over the bus rathewr than raw pixels. You will not be able to thell the difference between AGPx1 and AGPx8 with office use and desktops. With games, it varies but still not very much (ten, fifteen percent). Swapping the gfx card (eg. Radeo 7500 vs 9800) will catapult you into a different league: two, three times faster. The AGP bus pales against that.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 12 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2003 17:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Graham_nli):
>Seriously, if speed didn't matter, why would there be a move towards PCI-Express x16?

Seriously, have you turned on your brain today? The PC industry wants to SELL stuff. It doesn't matter to them if it makes a practical difference or not as long as it SOUNDS better and SELLS better. The product which is 5% faster usually is 100% more expensive: that's where the money is. If you read PC magazines, you will notice that differences of 1% to 10% are viewed with awe and separate the must-have from the crap. Nobody tells you that in reality, you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. If somebody made a Pepsi test with you to tell the difference between AGPx2 vs AGPx8 or an AMD 1400 vs an AMD 2200, you would fail.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 13 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 29-Nov-2003 18:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Christophe Decanini):
> And it was said that:
>
> - It was faster in reality than the 2X theorytical speed on Pegasos 1.

It is. Mai's AGP 2x implementation barely proves to hit the technical limits.

The Pegasos II implementation is a 66MHz, 32bit "bus", with the electrical
specs from AGP 2.0 - all modern graphics cards will run in this, at a
reasonable speed (i.e. 266MB/s)

> - Some people like Martin Bloom said that we have hardly any game pushing
> that much vertex.

Unfortunately this *is* a problem. We may not have today, but tomorrow we could
be running modern games on MorphOS. And I am NOT speculating here! :)

The *ONLY* stalling point is lack of drivers but when performance lacks too,
what's to stop people running these games under Linux or Windows rather than
MorphOS?

I have high hopes for the Pegasos II AGP implementation, in that it won't suck.
But to say that "it doesn't matter because nothing we have will stress it
anyway" is dead wrong.

By the way, Martin's surname is "Blom", http://martin.blom.org

> - modern GFX card have so much memory that they do everything on the card
> without requiring intense AGP transfer.

You still need to get a vertex list up to the card, and certain AGP features
make that a much nicer experience with less pipeline stalls.

> - Some people pointed out 5% speed difference in Quake3 between AGP1X and
> 8X.

Quake3 is architected not to do large AGP transfers during gameplay, as games
should be written! Also it isn't exactly the highest quality game in the world
in terms of number of vertices per scene, even if it supports bezier surfaces
and so on, the actual geometry of each level is quite optimized.

When you look at a game like Jedi Knight 2, or Black & White, the need to push
so many vertices around fast becomes evident.

But you're right: well written games use LOD and techniques otherwise to reduce
the amount of data required to be transferred to the card.

> Driver development is more of a worry than AGP 1 2 4 8 ...

That is true :)

=Neko=
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 14 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 29-Nov-2003 19:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Graham_nli):
>Anyway, AGP speeds do make a difference, a real measurable difference. AGP 4x
>is noticable faster than 2x in modern games, and the next generation of games
>will make AGP 8x noticably faster too.

This is all a bit academic given that neiter ATI or Nvidia will give out documentation for modern cards. We could have the best AGP slot in the world and the best driver writers but they are not going to make any difference if we can't write the drivers in the first place - the same applies to any "alternative" OS.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 15 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 29-Nov-2003 22:42 GMT
Until we have a Pegasos II to REVIEW and COMPARE with an artica-based board this talk is useless.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 16 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 30-Nov-2003 02:12 GMT
My dear Shotgun.

It doesen't matter what is the AGP enhanced release supported by Pegasos.

The important is to drive us Amigans up to the standards supported by the market.


IMHO is more important the support for the DDR RAM!

Because regarding ram you must count on a reliable product...

...and mainly...

...because when the standard of the RAM's modules is about to be changed into the PC world, Ram modules shortage is the first which affects shops...

...while Video cards can be still purchased a lot of time after a standard in bus video is changed.

Regarding AGP:

It has no importance what is actually the leading bus-architecture into the PC world, if AGP 4X or 8X...

...because the release of AGP 8X is the last of its standard to be released, and AGP will be abandoned in favour of Serial PCI-X.

It will be important to see that standard on the next release of the Pegasos (an hypotetical Pegasos 3)

but for now, it is of vital importance to enter the market standard of PC peripherals...

Ciao,

Raffaele
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 17 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Mendoza on 30-Nov-2003 05:16 GMT
Genesi is very good I think on delivering a PPC platform, even the new (peg2) after the old one (peg1) was discontinued, what I don't like is they are trying to get in the market by saying they are Amiga.

I know someone wanted to be that before they got bought off (at a much lower price that amiga waned) but seriously, if you got a good prosduct, why bother trying to steal market, -ip, tradenames, community members and more by saying Morphos is AmigaOS 3.2 and doing a lot of retard court cases?

If I had a company that had invented a good OS and had developed a good hardware I would use that as a selling point for my customers. Even if I hated a company due to earlier fights, I've would try tp focus on why I was better, if I was.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 18 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by boringlife on 30-Nov-2003 08:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Nicolas Mendoza):
> Genesi is very good I think on delivering a PPC platform, even the new (peg2)
> after the old one (peg1) was discontinued, what I don't like is they are trying
> to get in the market by saying they are Amiga.

You don't know much about Fleecy's history then. You should go back and read up on what Fleecy thinks of the "Amiga name" when he LEFT Amiga and decided he wanted to lead the "Amiga Community" in a direction that didn't include the "Amiga name"

"it became clear that many of them had just had enough of this boom/bust, bust, bust cycle of the Amiga. Now they want to build their own platform - not to own it, just to have a foundation on which to earn a living, build a community. Someone christened it the Insanity project which I kind of like because it is insane really. But you know what, there is just enough talent and frustration with computing in general at the moment, that we might pull it off."

Fleecy was trying to "steal" the "Kommunity" (as he called it) from Amiga.

"Could turn out to be nothing but it could turn out to be everything. That is why I am going to put so much effort into it over the next 6-12 months. If any of your readers want to get involved, please do. The Kommunity wants as many ppl as possible to come, have a look around, see if they like what they see. "

"What are your thoughts about a decent, amiga-like os, being on a pentium or something, and all the amigans going for that ?"

"Again, what is the Amiga? What is it that we want to keep viable? Most of the systems today are a mass of third party products (HW and SW) with an old Amiga buried somewhere in the centre. The community, the users, the developers, the retailers and the journalists have kept "the Amiga" viable. What exactly is it that ppl are trying to save? "

"With Amiga Inc finally revealing their true colours, the time is now right to break the community from its dependency habit. "

"We intend to develop the best platform out there, and if we have to be off the mainstream, then so be it. We can't expect ppl to come to us unless we present a compelling reason for them to do so."

"We may not be able to get the name Amiga, but elegance through simplicity will always be our motto."

Yep, that's right, these are all the words of Fleecy Moss. But *now* it's *different* that his own methods are working against him, right?

BTW, he was speaking about KOSH, his own "pegasos" attempt.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 19 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 30-Nov-2003 08:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Nicolas Mendoza):
> Genesi is very good I think on delivering a PPC platform, even the new
> (peg2) after the old one (peg1) was discontinued, what I don't like is they
> are trying to get in the market by saying they are Amiga.

Okay, Raffaele - where did we say we were Amiga, and why did you imagine that it
was Genesi's entire business plan and marketing strategy to be an Amiga mimic?

I think you'll find the entirity of your doubts is based on a false assumption.

=Neko=
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 20 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 30-Nov-2003 08:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Neko):
It's official!

Buffer time between waking up and posting on ANN.lu has hereby been increased
to 25 minutes, and wearing glasses has been made mandatory for sitting at the
computer.

Sorry, Raff :)

=Neko=
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 21 of 89ANN.lu
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: trolling
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 22 of 89ANN.lu
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: trolling
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 23 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 30-Nov-2003 09:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Graham_nli):
I'm going to wait for someone to say that AGP speed doesn't matter, etc, which is the typical Genesi excuse line these days.

Of course, when the original AmigaOne only had AGP1x planned, that was terrible and useless in the eyes of the same people.

Anyway, AGP speeds do make a difference, a real measurable difference. AGP 4x is noticable faster than 2x in modern games, and the next generation of games will make AGP 8x noticably faster too.
____________--

Your ignorance in this sector his so huge m8.
Simpky take a PC, go in the Bios and switch you Agp Bus speed from 4-8x to 1-2x.
You will notice only a so little slow down that they can be mesaured only with benchmarks programs (and the difference in 3dMark2003 with a Radeon 9660 from Agp 1x to Agp 8x is 3%).
People is so ignorant in these times.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 24 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 30-Nov-2003 09:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
AmigaOne doesn't support Agp2.0, and neither full old AGP 1.2 (as stated in Mai support Forum)
It will be unable to use full Agp2.0 cards and has got already a lot of problems with Video Boards based on Ati R300 chip (aka Ati 9700, 9800, 9800 XT).
In fact all this mediocre preassembled Aone was sold with old Ati 9000 Video Board from distributors to minimize problems with better Graphic cards.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 25 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 12:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Eva):
Hello my favourite blue troll, how are you ?
Don't you think AGP X1 is totally obsolete ?
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 26 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by boringlife on 30-Nov-2003 12:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
I agree it's obsolete, but since both competitors are pretty much crippled by the same AGP speed, maybe we should look at reliability instead as a deciding factor.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 27 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (boringlife):
No, one competitor provide an AGP bus as twice as fast as the other...
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 28 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Nov-2003 12:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
Twice as fast: Wanna bet? :-)The Articia based boards, including the Pegasos,
CANNOT reach the AGP2x rates.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 29 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by boringlife on 30-Nov-2003 12:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
But why are we told to compile Linux without AGP support? It's not twice as fast if it's being "used" as a PCI port. The "twice as fast" at this point is fiction.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 30 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 13:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
He means twice as fast. You know, like the A1 is just as fast as an 800/2.4 P4. This means if you throw the A1 and the P4 off a building, they'll land at the same time - but if you rip the AGP system out of an A1, and the same for a Peg2, the A1 system will land much earlier, it is TWICE AS FAST.

Of course in reality no-one would throw an 800/2.4 P4 off their building (because that's a pretty nice system) nor an A1 (because you can get like $500 for it on eBay selling to fan-boys)

There's a good marketing opportunity here. Offer both Red and Blue trolls a special app written for 68K OS3.1 where you can type in arbitrary speed factors and it will produce a "benchmark" output showing how incredibly fast your system is like this:

------------RAM speed---------Disk speed--------Graphics-------
A500----------1byte/s-----------2byte/s-----------none---------
My Box--------800TB/s-----------90GB/s-----------Quake 6 @ 4700fps

Then they can all have a big screaming match thread about who can type in the most ridiculous numbers, once they get bored they can compare how fast the benchmark program loads from a floppy disk between machines!
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 31 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Stefan Burström on 30-Nov-2003 13:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Eva):
@Eva the booring troll

>Simpky take a PC, go in the Bios and switch you Agp Bus speed from 4-8x to 1-2x.

I suppose you have done this test yourself, no?

>You will notice only a so little slow down that they can be mesaured only with benchmarks programs (and the difference in 3dMark2003 with a Radeon 9660 from Agp 1x to Agp 8x is 3%).

Hm, then I wonder why companies are spending milions of USD to create faster gfx cards with faster bus speeds...

>People is so ignorant in these times.

Take a look in the mirror and you'll find one of the most ignorant one.
This thread was not about AOS4 nor AmigaOne. Could you please stay on topic
even if some people are trying to shift focus for once???

regards,
Stefan
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 32 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 13:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Eva):
9700, 9800, ... require min. 4X AGP bus to work, that's what all manufacturers write...
But if you said these cards work on Peg II, i'll buy a 9800. Just a question : where can i download Morphos 3D drivers for these cards ?
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 33 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 30-Nov-2003 13:38 GMT
Has anyone actually made a benchmark for A1 (or Peg1) AGP speed?

While we wait for the Peg2 to be released, maybe some of the people
who find AGP speed so crucial could prepare a test? Just so that when
the Peg2 is released, you can be 100% sure to get the system with the
fastest AGP.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 34 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by boringlife on 30-Nov-2003 13:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Stefan Burström):
> Hm, then I wonder why companies are spending milions of USD to create faster gfx cards with faster bus speeds...

Who's doing that???

graphics companies spent their time making chips that render graphics faster!, not increase AGP bus speed!

All this is moot anyways, as the cards are only being used as PCI cards.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 35 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 30-Nov-2003 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
The Radeon 9600, 9700 and 9800 should work in any AGP 2.0 slot - the AGP 3.0
specification is such that if the chipset is in AGP 3.0 mode, it only has two
speed settings (4x and 8x). This is the thing that people misunderstand as
"the card only supports 4x and 8x". It'd break the AGP specs if it didn't
work any other way (i.e. it would not work in any machine without AGP 8x)

You can easily switch your chipset to AGP 2.0 mode and run a 9800XT at a speed
of AGP 1x - just change your SmartGART settings, or XFree86 configuration.

As for Eva - the difference in speed of an AGP 1x bus and an AGP 8x bus is
some 8 times (duh!). What is probably trying to be said here is that the
difference in game performance (raw frames per second) is minimal, but then
again 99% of games are optimised not to use the AGP bus during gameplay.

An AGP 8x bus is going to make a difference when games take advantage of the
difference, which will be sometime next year when DirectX 9.0 hits home in
terms of game releases.

=Neko=
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 36 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 15:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
>Just a question : where can i download Morphos 3D drivers for these cards ?

If you care to read the thread, you would have found this line: "This is all a bit academic given that neiter ATI or Nvidia will give out documentation for modern cards". If that is true then there will be no 3D state of the art drivers for recent cards (matching DirectX drivers), rendering any such purchase a useless waste of money. The discusion of the AGP protocol is idiotic: it starts with not having the games in that league - anything on Amiga runs fine with 3D hardware via AGPxanything - and ends with no access to recent 3D hardware due to the lack of drivers. I wonder if the SDNAP driver writers get access to the 3D documentation of ATI's and NVDIA's latest and best?
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 37 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 30-Nov-2003 16:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Stefan Burström):
Hm, then I wonder why companies are spending milions of USD to create faster gfx cards with faster bus speeds
___________

Marketing, m8
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 38 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 30-Nov-2003 16:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
But if you said these cards work on Peg II, i'll buy a 9800. Just a question : where can i download Morphos 3D drivers for these cards ?
_______
They will be out just before Aos4 will ever be shipped.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 39 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Nov-2003 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
Most cards require the 2.0 spec, which supports the 1x, 2x and 4x data rates.
Other cards, mostly newer ones, require 3.0, which supports the 4x and 8x rates.
Others, support both 2.0 and 3.0.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 40 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 30-Nov-2003 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Neko):
Neko, if you read my post you will see better the Benchmark I used: 3dMArk2003.
In all gamez, and I can repeat all from FF7 (dx6) to Halo (Dx9) if in the bios I switch my Agp bus speed from 8x to 1x I loose just 2-3 % of the speed.

Not only ...
Here some trolls continue to speack about a full 2.0 compliant Bus, versus an old NON 2.0 compliant bus of Articia chipset (that was present in Peggy1 too). Agp performanse of Peggy1 and Aone are equal (they used the same Northbrigde) but people like BBRV can tell to these trolls that Peggy2 performance are BETTER thx to the fact that it is a 2.0 full bus, not an half Agp bus (like on Articia) that is not capable to handle full 2.0 GFX boards.

PS
About this
In Reply to Comment 3:
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
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Christophe reads comment 3!
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 41 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-Nov-2003 16:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
ATi does give out documentation. Drivers for both MorphOS and (iirc) OS4 are in development.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 42 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 30-Nov-2003 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Eva):
And as I said: of course that will be the case. AGP is barely used for more than vertex upload during gameplay or benchmarks.

Switching your AGP mode down simply means one thing: UPLOADING those textures,
before the level or demo is started, is slower - 8x slower, at the maximum.

You may lose 2-3% from the fps, but that's because only a complete idiot or
a graphic designer in Hollywood uploads 64MB of textures on every frame..

It doesn't mean that the difference between 1x and 8x is 3% - it means that
the impact on most games is 3%. What you keep saying is raving nonsense which
can be misconstrued. What I am saying is cold hard fact, which cannot.

As it stands - the Articia S is fairly AGP 2.0 compliant, and allows setting
the bus to 2x, but isn't capable of reaching it. In reality it does the same
as the Pegasos II - an AGP bus implemented over a 66MHz PCI slot, you can
change which mode the Articia runs in, and have a 64bit PCI instead of an AGP
if you like, depending on your hardware design decision.

The Pegasos II solution is AGP 2.0 compliant, and runs at 1x. This means it
*should* support 1.5V (and 3.3V?) modes of operation, and have a 2.0-form
slot (with 1.5V and 3.3V keys). It will support all cards which support these
specifications.

Alkis, I'm sure the 9800 line actually runs in an AGP 2.0 bus - the board seems
to be a 1.5V design, not a strictly 0.85V design, I assume it is still a 0.15
micron process too. To run at 8x mode it needs to support 0.85V but all AGP 8x
boards have to be at least TOLERANT of a 1.5V signal.

I doubt ATI would cripple the card such that it would not work on a lot of
people's machines. There are plenty of machines (non-Hyperthreading Pentium 4
at around 2.8GHz, 533MHz bus, and so on) which only have a 4x slot, which
will be able to use a 9100, 9200, 9500, 9600/Pro/XT, 9700/Pro and 9800/Pro/XT.

I can't find any definitive answers on this though, bear with me on this.

=Neko=
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 43 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 30-Nov-2003 19:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Neko):
Switching your AGP mode down simply means one thing: UPLOADING those textures,
before the level or demo is started, is slower - 8x slower, at the maximum.
You may lose 2-3% from the fps, but that's because only a complete idiot or
a graphic designer in Hollywood uploads 64MB of textures on every _________________

Well let's become a bit more clear Neko.
As we both stated the Fps difference is really low if we compare 1x to 8x due the fact that every gamez use only Onboard GFX ram.
You stated that the differecense in speed lives, for example, in the PREload in Gfx Ram of Textures ...
But, excuse me, also 1x agp is capable to easly use 200mbyte/s of transfert rate, so theorically if I use an an AGP 1x transfer I can fill the 128Mb of a good GFX board in ... a second. A second.
So there is zero differences for the enduser from 1x to 8x (a part marketing) as a lot of people can read in various article on Hardware Upgrade and DriverHeaven. Enstead there is a Big difference in using slow and chunky Sdram versus DDR (2100 too), and if some troll here is capable to conclude that Aone is a FASTER machine of Peggy2, is really ridicolous and must be deny.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 44 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 30-Nov-2003 20:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Eva):
IMHO most of this discussion is best left to those days when people actually have these machines to test them.

And In the end.. This AGP-speed difference is (based on what I have read) on 3D sames is so small that one can easily forget it when comparing different generations of GFX-cards against each other. Faster/newer card will pump up a helluva lot more polygons/pixels than those year-two old card can no matter what kinda AGP they have backing them up. Besides newer cards have more memory so In-scene access to textures/polys is limited a lot due improved caching.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 45 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 20:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Graham_nli):
>Anyway, AGP speeds do make a difference, a real measurable difference. You can measure everything, but can you feel it? >AGP 4x is noticable faster than 2x in modern games, and the next generation>of games will make AGP 8x noticably faster too. Hehe, which games does Pegasos have again? >Seriously, if speed didn't matter, why would there be a move towards>PCI-Express x16? 8GB/s of data transfer .. It's 4GB/s.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 46 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 22:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
>9700, 9800, ... require min. 4X AGP bus to work, that's what all manufacturers write... Says the troll on your shoulder?No Sir, the Radeon 9800Pro runs happily with my AGP2x slot.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 47 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 22:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Neko):
>An AGP 8x bus is going to make a difference when games take advantage of the>difference, which will be sometime next year when DirectX 9.0 hits home in>terms of game releases. Isn't 3DMark2003 based on DirectX9? Eva claimed the difference is only slight.You are working on building a DX9 to OGL wrapper for MOS? :)
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 48 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 30-Nov-2003 22:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
SNAP is a 2D driver system only, not a 3D. You get no 3D acceleration by using SNAP drivers.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 49 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 01-Dec-2003 01:59 GMT
There's more to AGP bandwidth than loading textures. T&L requires a lot of bandwidth as do 3rd generation display servers like Quartz.
Pegasos 2 AGP support ? [Was Pegasos2 sub standard hardware?] : Comment 50 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 01-Dec-2003 02:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (strobe):
Only if your system is poorly configured, you have some mega-whopper of a game that doesn't exist on the PC or you're running a Kyro II chipset does AGP affect T&L in even the slightest.
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