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[Rant] ...another interesting articleANN.lu
Posted on 30-Nov-2003 18:32 GMT by bbrv56 comments
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Here is a New York Times Magazine article about Apple, the iPod, marketing, product development and management. We contend that this Community can produce a Super TiVo-like device that integrates the network into the use of the content itself. The Pegasos is building block #1 to any competent computing environment and the necessary tool required by the developer support enlisted to customize the platform for consumer use. A Pegasos computer is a desktop machine. A Pegasos computer enclosed in a fan-less VCR-like size case becomes a consumer product: a black box. The Pegasos black box operates equally well with a television screen or a computer monitor. The Pegasos black box could come with its own file sharing and downloading programs -- music, movies, video games – a preference is selected, a source found, the entertainment begins. The technology would be invisible to the entertainment experience. The consumer manages the experience through an easily understood user interface with a remote control or through a web browser and a keyboard for more sophisticated users. As the hub of the Home Entertainment Center high fidelity sound/audio can now be introduced through the 24/7 broadband Internet connection to bring existing home stereo equipment back into use. Here the Pegasos black box can be positioned to be a consumer product that would do to a TV set what MP3 did to music – any show any time.
...another interesting article : Comment 1 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by David S Lund on 30-Nov-2003 17:42 GMT
That concept would be awesome. I have no experience with TIVO, but I have a good friend that has a ReplayTV. If the Pegasos box could have similar features to the TIVO or ReplayTV and add web browsing and online gaming capabilities it would be very nice. It could be made a subscription service similar to ReplayTV that would cost the consumer say - $10.00 per month or so for the channel guide, and access to the network.

Could be a bit of a marketing challenge due to competition out there, but with the added functiionality available with the Pegasos, it should do ok. :)

I'd buy one for sure!

David
HAPPY Pegasos I owner!
...another interesting article : Comment 2 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 30-Nov-2003 17:53 GMT
I had given this some thought sometime late last year, but in the end, the main problem that I could see was (a) getting the hardware cost down and (b) getting software that integrates well AND offers all these features.

But then again, give me a silent box I connect to my TV and network and that allows me to play any kind of digital data from a nice-looking and stable interface, and I'll be happy. Add Tivo-like functionality, and some more unique features, and you'll have a potential best-seller.

The problem is that all of the above would need to be available within a short time-frame to make any significant impact.
...another interesting article : Comment 3 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by shut the f&^%& up on 30-Nov-2003 18:08 GMT
*** Warninig - I'm in a really bad mood today ***

Will someone shut this A-hole up?? For the love of GOD I don't know why he insists on comming to this site to promote his agenda? Hey billy boy.. Don't you have your own websites to promote your ideas and rants?

I can understand why you must come here. You NEED to spew your propagada to a group of people who sometimes don't agree with you. This makes you feel important! I know EVERYONE in your little cirlce just WORSHIPS you and the ground you walk on (neko, downix..) but give it a break.

Do you think you can come up with something more creative than "our products are better than yours" or "look what S&*^T market I can get the pegasos into" If so then will you just ust do it and MOVE THE F^*&^ on by now???!!?!!

Please take you and your little minions and go onto your "bigger and better" things and leave us poor Amiga users alone. We're thrilled that "you are so much better than us". NOW just PISS OFF.

If you can't do this how about stop posting new threads about every "new technology" you think you can get you and your dumb a5$^ computer into. Or how about you just SHUT UP!!!

Signed
The silent voice of masses

ps. Sorry Christan
...another interesting article : Comment 4 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 30-Nov-2003 18:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (David S Lund):
One big problem is that without dedicated encoding hardware, it's just not going to work.

I bought a TV card many years ago for my living room PC (HTPC if you like). Since then, I've been looking for a good software package that would allow me to actually use it for something else than manually recording TV shows with Virtual Dub.

I would love to be able to pause a TV show or skip the commercials, but NOT at the price of sacrificing video quality. The best package I've tried so far is ShowShifter, but the best it can do is quarter video resolution (384x288), and even then, MPEG artifacts are still crearly visible. Recording and playing at the same time (i.e., if you have used the pause feature) takes 60-70% of the CPU time on my (granted, low end by now) Athlon XP 1700+. Full resolution would require four times this processing power, and even more to get rid of the visible MPEG artifacts. Add to this that the deinterlacing doesn't work with any of Hauppage's stable drivers (it only works with the ones that bluescreen on my system) and it's clear that it's going to take years until I'm satisfied.

One would think that it would be easy to make it work, but none of the PC programs I've tried so far are anything else than toys. I've not tried TiVo or ReplayTV (not available here).
...another interesting article : Comment 5 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Kermit Woodall on 30-Nov-2003 18:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Christian Kemp):
Friends of mine were involved in Anthony Wood's (former Amiga developer aka:Sunrize) ReplayTV (the original TiVo) and involved with Applied Magic's Screenplay nonlinear editing appliance.

Why mention these? Because TiVo and Screenplay and many other computer-like appliances are based on PowerPC chips. Prized for their low power consumption, low heat, and high performance.

The key in all of these devices has been to build a consumer-oriented device that has an interface that is EASY to use without compromising on power. In fact, the better the interface is at bringing power to the user without making it hard to use - the more popular the device can become.

Replay/TiVo are prime examples. They're easy to use as their interfaces resemble the channel guide on a digital cable/satellite box. They use the remote control conventions of a VCR to add recording/playback functionality.

A SuperTiVo already exists in many 'geek' hands. Linux projects like FreeVIO and others have merged TiVo functionality with the WebTV/Internet concepts, DVD, MP3 player, online video streaming (still not that great if you want realtime) and even some basic video editing and DVD burning.

It's not a bad concept - even if these geek devices cost thousands to put together by hand and use PCs with high heat/power requirements.

I know my use of ReplayTV has already made my DVD player feel crippled because I can't easily jump back 10 seconds or skip over unwanted sections with the same ease of the interface of the ReplayTV. I know why these Linux guys spent all the time developing FreeVIO (and other) packages and spend so much to make these ideal systems.

ReplayTV talked about how their system put YOU in control of TV at last. TiVo is echoing that same sentiment now. Being in control of all my home media is very attractive. It would be even better if I didn't have to have three boxes on top of my TV to do it all. And three remotes. (it can still be hard to find an all-in-one remote that cleanly works with ReplayTV _and_ a DVD player)

Robert Heinlein, SF author, saw this back in the 50's. He described a home communications center that controlled telephone, tv, and more and could easily bring all the data you wanted together (voice, video, print) and give you what you wanted WITHOUT commercials and the ability to skip what you didn't want as it came up. (hell - that might invalidate a few hundred patents on the basis of 'prior art' right there) His characters could scan for news/information on subjects and get listings of everything they wanted to select to read or view or listen to under their control.

The future is here, we're living in it, the gadgets are just an interface design away!

Kermit
...another interesting article : Comment 6 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 30-Nov-2003 18:22 GMT
I think that the old marketing rule applies, you can't sell something
new. You have to sell something old, on the strength that it's better
at the "old" things, and then people might just notice that they got
something new as well, included.

So I think such a device would first and foremost be a VCR except
better. Eg, it should be able to:
- record many programs (eg, it should have a lot of storage)
- be able to save this to a replacable and exchangeable medium
(DVD-burner)
- offer improved quality
- record several programs on different channels at the same time
- have "smart" recording features, such as skipping commercials and
starting to record exactly when a program starts
- be integrated with TV-guide services, making it simple to browse
through the upcoming programs for the next few weeks, tick the
programs you're interested in, and get these recorded for you

Now, when you have something like this.. you can also offer some "new
ideas". People won't buy it for that at first, but it may catch on.
...another interesting article : Comment 7 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 30-Nov-2003 18:29 GMT
Actually, we are happy to answer you very (un)silent voice of the masses...

The idea is collaborate on opinions. That is one of the reasons for having these Forums and discussions like this online. The goal is to bring out not only the ideas, but specifics. It is an international brainstorming session that if done successfully can yield enough information to create a Marketing Requirements Document that in turn can be sourced to a technology team and a level of risk vs. reward can be assessed. Will it make business sense? Let the rest of us figure it out right here, right now. You do not have to be involved and you do not have to read the thread.

Martin, the initial concept is to view files online, not actual broadcasts. Naturally, the future of television indicates that digital terrestrial or satellite television signals can and will be carriers for data. Have a look at this website http://www.moviebeam.com We are very interested in your explorations in this area.

Thanks for your comments Christian, David, Johan and Kermit.

We are thinking that the foundation of the next generation of digital distribution will be the Internet (with data layers added through other sources). Maybe a better way to think about the concept is an iPod for video and video games.

R&B
...another interesting article : Comment 8 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Coder on 30-Nov-2003 18:33 GMT
Hi,

This Pegasos "black box", will it run MorphOS? I mean as main "OS".

Coder
...another interesting article : Comment 9 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 30-Nov-2003 19:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Coder):
I think bbrv thought it as a startign point for the whole idea with a multimediabox, reading his comment, it could really end to run on a AmigaTwo or what ever. As this will be discussed on an open forum, anyone can take the ideas and make a product, as we can't really copyright our thougths.

I don't think the point here is to talk on what operating system, platform it would be the best to run a such multimedia box, but first what it should be able to do and then on what, it's just stupid to start the other way around, as it can just lead to a product that won't work.
...another interesting article : Comment 10 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Coder on 30-Nov-2003 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Trizt):
It does not hurt to look a bit further then the horizon. :-)

Coder
...another interesting article : Comment 11 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 19:10 GMT
The higher the quality of recording, and the easier the device makes the recording process for the end user, the more attention the RIAA pays to your product. What kind of a fight are you willing to put up in the event this is deemed "too good" by the RIAA? They can be a lot tougher than AmigaInc when intellectual property is at stake.
...another interesting article : Comment 12 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 30-Nov-2003 19:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Trizt):
Tritz. Right.

Coder. We would. But, as Tritz point out lets define the opportunity first and what we would want it to do.

:-)

R&B
...another interesting article : Comment 13 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 30-Nov-2003 19:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
Hi Anonymous 130.94.107.149,

Well, we could be talking about something bigger than that and maybe even a solution for them. Establishing a Secure Trusted Community will require completely new innovation. The purpose of this discussion could be to understand how such a revolutionary concept can be realized with the technology, products and people of Genesi and their partners. Akin to the advent of the fax machine, to send or receive you had to have a machine, Genesi could seek to integrate the content with the network itself and introduce an indispensable platform that might usher in a new generation of digital distribution.

The medium is the message (again!).

R&B
...another interesting article : Comment 14 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 30-Nov-2003 19:32 GMT
First time I saw this kind of product was in 2001, of course x86 based working as VCR, gamebox, internet radio, mp3 player and so on. Can't remeber the companys name nor their URL, but was a swedish company. They had choosen to have a more exclusive "monitor" to their system, which made it quite expensive (like 50000SEK), but with the "home computer" program that the goverment have here in sweden, you could get it for a quite faire price.

I agree with Johan Rönnblom that the system must be quite similare to an already excisting system, like VCR or rather DVD-Ram. IMHO a system should be able to be worked from the remote, without that you must see the the graphical interface of the system (a LCD display that can display simple messages is needed). For those who want to use more advanced featrues, will be requiered to change channel n the telly and use teh graphical interface.

Another thing that is happening, is that more and more countries are moving over to digital tv, a nice feature that could be included is a "multichannel digital decoder", so that you can watch more than one channel at the same time without having two or more digitalboxes with a SIM-card. Of course you will need to be able to recorde from at least one channel at the same time as you watch anotherone on your MMBox.

I don't think that the box should use other protocols than those that are already there, just look at the KiSS DVD/DivX players, they aren't usefull in a linux/morphos/amigaos environment, as they requier a special software which is only for Microsoft Windows, so protocols like samba and nfs should be supported, and even ports of DirectConnect and ftp are really usefull.

As earlier in this thread it's mentioned, recording without getting commercials, that would have been great, I know that a few TVchannels uses some kind of code to tell when the commercial is starting and ending, nu clue about standards and so, but could work quite easilly if all broadcasters used it.

Read that Sony was working on digital amplifiers, so that would too be nice to have "builtin", so you don't need your old amplifier. Gosh, just picking up stuff here and there, but I think I could hast this up a little bit and say, that IMHO a such MMBox needs to be able to work as a VCR with some extrea features, but for the more advanced user, it should be able to take over all the other multimedia equipment you have in a home and it has to be able to work with new media like digital-tv and digital-radio.
...another interesting article : Comment 15 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Mr. Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 19:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Trizt):
Yeah, I though this has been done before. Not to mention that anyone can do this with a modern PC, such as the shuttle.
...another interesting article : Comment 16 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 30-Nov-2003 20:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Mr. Anonymous):
I do agree with you, but if you would make a such product for selling, it has to get down in price compared with a shuttle solution and give the possibility to use it as a digita-decoder box too, but of course the more features added the more expensive it would be. I guess it's kind a moment 22, but maybe someone will get an idea that is woth to build on, just thanks to this thread, who know?
...another interesting article : Comment 17 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 30-Nov-2003 20:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Mr. Anonymous):
Doing this with a Shuttle (or other SFF ATX board) has several disadvantages though: it's expensive (300eur and more without RAM and storage), it still has at least one fan that has to cope with at least 60W of heat by the processor alone, and there's still no system in the shop that allows to do everything Joe Average would want from it (and no, downloading stuff from Sourceforge is not something that your typical home user wants to do.)

I'm sticking to my argument: currently, there's no hardware platform that does all these things right, and currently, there's no software that's user-friendly (stable, intuitive, accessible) enough.

Something based on the Pegasos could fit, but prices would need to come down, and software would need to be written/ported/enhanced.
...another interesting article : Comment 18 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 30-Nov-2003 20:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Christian Kemp):
Agree. I can see how hardware should be handled in a low-power and (relatively) low cost way. Under 1GHz CPU is well enough when key work is done on dedicated HW. This is of course a bit problem when standards are evolving but todays HW can be flexible enough to handle both Analog and Digital TV signals.

On Software side.. It's a lot more unknown to me.. It not necessary to have million complex programs.. Just enough to do the works. IMHO it's best in KISS (Keep It Simple & Stupid). Just connect it to TV and offer couple buttons (+remote control) to do video recording/playback. For 'adwanced users' there could also be some rudimentry editing facilities and transfer to/from other medias..
...another interesting article : Comment 19 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 30-Nov-2003 20:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Christian Kemp):
Now I found the page, thanks to google (had first seached for "hemdator" while I should have used "hempc")

http://www.broadbandbox.net

"What is a Broadbandbox?
The Broadbandbox is the key in presenting all mediafeatures that broadband offers, right into your livingroom. The box also replaces all home-electronics including TV, Radio, Stereo, VCR, Digital-TV boxes, PC’s etc. The box can be used by anyone, including aunt Agda 87, with a simple remote control. "

For those who wonders who "aunt Agda" is, it's an expression in sweden to say that everyone is able to use something.

They offer the following system:
- Broadbandbox Showtime™
- 42” plasmascreen
- Powerfull soundsystem 5.1
- Webcamera

For 59995SEK (around 6666 euro), this includes 25% VAT. Most of the price is the 42 inch plasma screen. The system do not support a normal TV nor a normal computer screen, I guess they do earn the money on the plasma screen.
...another interesting article : Comment 20 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 30-Nov-2003 20:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (JoannaK):
There's no need to have a million complex programs, agreed, but there needs to be a handful of different programs/components to do the various tasks (problem #1 is getting all of them ported/written) and then there needs to be a common interface to them. (This is a particular gripe of mine with a lot of applications - not enough manpower is spent on the user interface and visual aspects of the application to make it "work" for the widest possible audience, allowing easy access to beginners while not limiting the more experienced users.)
...another interesting article : Comment 21 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Nov-2003 20:43 GMT
The idea isn't bad, far from it, but personally, i think you'd better start working on it, instead of discussing it, all the things you mentioned are already available to the enthousiast, and there have been attempts at this before, i personally, i think this is where the PS3 will be heading, so get to it if you want to stand a chance.

Cheers
...another interesting article : Comment 22 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 30-Nov-2003 20:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Amon_Re):
You actually bring up a good point. Where is the PS going? For that matter where are the XBox and the GameCube going?

The Power PC...

If we are going to have a black box we will need a Pegasos Workstation.

As the broader market opportunity continues to develop, the Pegasos can progressively meet the demands of the application developer market. As the platform supports multiple operating systems and applications, it will become a Development Machine for multiple platforms. With multiple operating systems running on the Pegasos and development in synch with IBM CPU evolution, the Pegasos is poised to introduce a major paradigm shift. The Pegasos will be the only multi-OS development machine that will feature a 970 IBM CPU on the commercial market in 2004. In the meanwhile, consumer products will continue the trend toward greater computer functionality. MorphOS, which requires far less memory to run than any version of MacOS, Windows or Linux, will be ready to meet this convergence with an efficient and fully featured offering.

Certainly, other operating systems could follow the same route.

R&B
...another interesting article : Comment 23 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 30-Nov-2003 21:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Martin Blom):
>One big problem is that without dedicated encoding hardware, it's just not going to work.

If it's in MPEG in the first place (on-line or digital broadcasts) it already is encoded. But there's plenty of encoder chips about - maybe we should talk to erm, IBM...

>I think that the old marketing rule applies, you can't sell something new.
>
>So I think such a device would first and foremost be a VCR except better.

Didn't the VCR break that marketing rule? and the computer...
There was no way to record TV programs before VCRs came along. They were new.

I'm not saying that rule is wrong but it's not an absolute rule.
It was once described to me in a different way (also by a Swedish guy oddly enough) that "nothing is new", the VCR is (well, was) new but it didn't let you do anything new, you still watched TV. It just let you do it more convieniently.

>As this will be discussed on an open forum, anyone can take the ideas and make a product,

The ex-head of AMD once said "execution, execution, execution". There's probably someone else who has thought of anything we come up with already, there are big companies who pay people to do exactly that. It's who does it good, cheap or convienient that'll make the money from it.

>Akin to the advent of the fax machine, to send or receive you had to have a machine,

Exactly, The Fax machine was invented around 100 years before it was actually put on sale.

Interesting article BTW.


>Yeah, I though this has been done before. Not to mention that anyone can do this with a
>modern PC, such as the shuttle

If it makes anyware near the noise of my PC it's going nowhere near my TV...
You are missing the point, the "black box" may house a computer but it will not look or feel anything like a computer.
...another interesting article : Comment 24 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 30-Nov-2003 21:54 GMT
minator: sure, but it also took a long time before VCR's became a big
seller, and it required backing of some large companies (the smaller
ones failed even with their better product, remember?).


I agree that user interfaces are important, and I disagree that "this
is already available". Yes, of course you can buy something which is
actually more similar to a video editing studio than something you
would plug into your TV, but it's going to be expensive and most
people won't be able (or bothered) to use it, even less install it.

When it comes to the RIAA etc, well maybe there could be a problem.
But as far as I'm aware, recording for your personal use is allowed
everywhere, including under the DMCA. Maybe the RIAA would want to
change that, maybe they would succeed, but it would take a few years
and probably a lot longer in Europe, so the product would still be a
winner.

When it comes to things like renting video over the internet, I think
this is definitely the future but I see several problems. One is that
I think it will take a lot of time before most people have enough
bandwidth. Another is that it will be hard to convince the movie
industry to let you distribute this way. Either you admit that the
movies will be storeable and copyable, and then the movie industry
won't make business with you. Or you'll have to promise you that they
are not storeable and copyable, and then you will fail because this is
really impossible, and either the movie industry will not make
business with you, or even worse, they'll make a deal and then sue you
when you fail (or pull out after you put a lot of money into
development).
...another interesting article : Comment 25 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 30-Nov-2003 22:00 GMT
Since noone else has brought it up: Dreambox

http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/
...another interesting article : Comment 26 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 30-Nov-2003 22:03 GMT
Oh, and about computers.. they were not sold as something "new" (to
the mass market), they only took off big time when people bought them
as improved typewriters.
...another interesting article : Comment 27 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 30-Nov-2003 22:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
Hi Kolbjørn, that is nothing! Check this out:

http://www.moviebeam.com

It uses a PowerPC too...;-)

R&B
...another interesting article : Comment 28 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Nov-2003 22:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (bbrv):
Time will tell, but the longer you stall, the lower your chances.

Don't forget about SUN btw, with their JavaDesktop, there are more then afew fishes in the pond, and surviving amongst sharks won't be easy.

Cheers
...another interesting article : Comment 29 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Nov-2003 22:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (bbrv):
The CPU in the end isn't that important, is how the machine fits together as a whole.

You don't need
...another interesting article : Comment 30 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Nov-2003 22:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (bbrv):
The CPU in the end isn't that important, is how the machine fits together as a whole.

You don't need a killer CPU for this, if the rest of the hardware takes care of the heavy numbercrunching.

The biggest advantage the PPC has in these things is probably the low heat disipation.

Cheers
...another interesting article : Comment 31 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 30-Nov-2003 22:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (bbrv):
http://www.cable-modems.org/tutorial/07.htm

Cable modems also use an embedded PowerPC inside them. Has anyone found a cable modem on a PCI card? I'm looking for one, please post a link if you've found one or at least a link to chipsets for system builders. Thanks! ;)
...another interesting article : Comment 32 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 30-Nov-2003 22:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (bbrv):
This one I didnt grasp - a box with movies, and just that?
...another interesting article : Comment 33 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 30-Nov-2003 22:51 GMT
Another multimedia box, and this time not PowerPC based: http://vwbinc.com/
...another interesting article : Comment 34 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Nov-2003 22:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Amon_Re):
>You don't need a killer CPU for this, if the rest of the hardware takes care of the heavy numbercrunching. The original Amiga chipset strength. :-)
...another interesting article : Comment 35 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Nov-2003 23:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Anonymous):
Yes, but at the time of the Amiga 1000, the 68k was a powerhouse too :)

Cheers
...another interesting article : Comment 36 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 30-Nov-2003 23:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (shut the f&^%& up):
Wow, 209.86.254.207 is really mad. He's righteously indignant and speaking up for the masses. But somehow he's -just- -not- -quite- mad enough to screw up his courage to the point where he can put his name on his words. Oh well, maybe the mad anonymous coward will one day realize that people would take him more seriously if he stands up behind his words, instead of maintaining the quick comfortable retreat route of namelessness.

You say you are sorry to the website owner, but if you really had any respect you wouldn't take such sorry cheap shot flames and stink up the place like that.

The digital convergence device BBRV is postulating about is a good subject to discuss here. There are a lot of us Amigans who appreciate that Genesi includes us as a target market, and that BBRV listens to what we have to say and is engaged on a daily basis with the community. So you don't speak for us, and you don't speak for any masses, in fact you don't even speak for yourself. You just put a bunch of stupid anonymous insults together and that's not worth anything. It's a good thing nobody takes you seriously.
...another interesting article : Comment 37 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 01-Dec-2003 00:50 GMT
> The digital convergence device BBRV is postulating about is a good
subject to discuss here.

I agree, but it would make an equally fine subject to discuss on the
forums of metabox.de, amiga.com, webtv.com or fuckedcompany.com :)
Usually these devices materialize as the secret rescue plan when the
regular plans suffer from proven failure.

Bill Buck and Rachel Velasco are erecting Potemkin villages around
your attention spans. I really don't get what makes (former) Amiga
followers so volatile to worshipping to false prophets. Go Bill Buck
and Rachel Velasco, just a little bit faster, you're moving like
puppets to my will, and I'm having a lot of fun with you :)
...another interesting article : Comment 38 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 01-Dec-2003 01:07 GMT
for fun: (HDTV set top box)
http://focus.ti.com/docs/apps/catalog/resources/blockdiagram.jhtml?appId=238&bdId=408
...another interesting article : Comment 39 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 01-Dec-2003 01:11 GMT
Also of interest:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/apps/catalog/general/applications.jhtml?templateId=959&path=templatedata/cm/general/data/bband_cblcpe_tnetc4401
...another interesting article : Comment 40 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 01-Dec-2003 01:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Oppressor):
You are a pretty oppresive guy, Oppressor..

This is a discussion forum. What do you think the key business is here? Why not give you and all the other know-it-alls who have not put-up a penny of your own money to do anything a chance at the inside story. How about it?! :-) Why don't you amaze us all here with your knowledge? What would you do? Then, we will all sit here and critique you and your upcoming failures. As Daniel said, you and people like you do not even have the courage to put your name on your posts.

In the meanwhile, there is a road to follow here if we want to get to that point we are discussing. Part of it is what we have done. There are over 400 registered people at MDC. There are more Pegasos owners who actually have machines and use MorphOS or whatever they want to use every day.

The Pegasos was initially targeted at the computer geek market and this market. Computer software developers, embedded system technicians and suave computer users that enjoy developing unique computing solutions define this market. There are currently Pegasos computers being used in 34 countries. In the next phase, Genesi intends to leverage the worldwide interest in the Linux. Genesi has developed a bootable version of Debian, the world’s most common distribution of Linux. Titled PegXLin, it is offered at no additional cost with the Pegasos. Linux is available for the Pegasos platform from a growing number of distributions, giving the Pegasos owner several choices from which to choose. In the meanwhile, MorphOS is present and exposed to users through the notoriety of Linux.

To that end, Genesi sought and has become an IBM Business Partner and has been awarded the use of the Ready for IBM Technology mark. Genesi is listed in the IBM Global Directory -- http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/rfit/genesi.html -- and will be sold by IBM and IBM Partners worldwide.

BM’s recent investment in Novell and Novell’s acquisition of SuSE is an indication of the coming opportunity and the harbinger of the revolution that will be spawned by the Pegasos. Linux distribution SuSE and the Novell® Nterprise Linux Service package that is being promoted by IBM worldwide run today on the Pegasos. In the meanwhile, the strategic value of moving to a Linux Desktop is becoming increasing clear and the migration away from Microsoft has begun. Every major commercial or non-commercial version/distribution of Linux on the market today runs on the Pegasos.

Most importantly, the Pegasos is the missing link between the IBM PowerPC microprocessor and the global IBM Linux and Grid Service strategy. Once IBM removes Windows and Microsoft from the equation the x86 processor is next. IBM sells the PowerPC. IBM will sell a new desktop machine based on the PowerPC. IBM will sell the Pegasos and you will still be whining in your own self-doubts. Too bad you could have been more constructive when you had the chance.

Come on Oppressor, show your stuff. Make an effort! :-D Post your ideas here for the rest of us to review and discuss. Are you a man or an anonymous coward?

R&B
...another interesting article : Comment 41 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by smp266 on 01-Dec-2003 09:02 GMT
A couple of years ago I would have thought: Why would I want to surf the net on my TV.
Today: Why would I want to watch TV when I could be surfing the net or watching DVDs. (Or getting some work done.)

I guess it so commonplace that it is hard to live without it (the net). I don't miss TV however... weird.
...another interesting article : Comment 42 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 01-Dec-2003 09:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (smp266):
The MMBox is a way to merge computer adn tv, usually most people have a smaller computer monitor than they have TV (just counting inches, not the quality of the picture) and really would like to have a large picture as possible while watching "telly". This makes that change the computer monitor to a TV and you will make most people quite happy and if you can do everything with one machine, wow, that means you don't have to get up from your soffa at all, more than to the fridge.

I would guess that in the future the MMbox will be in every house, maybe connected to one or two plasmascreens (before that happens, the prices on plasma screens needs to drop quite a lot, at least here in sweden, I guess the prices in Hong Kong are already on a acceptable level), next step may be voice controll and after that maybe integrate everything to the system like lights, heat, phones...
But I do not think it will kill the computer, I think people still wants a bit privacy and that you don't get that feel when you are in the livingroom infron of that 52" screen.
...another interesting article : Comment 43 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 01-Dec-2003 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Daniel Miller):
I was happy when I posted my first comment here that no one had commented the 3rd comment, but as soon that was done, there turned up a "troll" more and I guess that we will have another troll-war here. I think it's just better to leave those trolls to be and not reply at all and they will go away.
...another interesting article : Comment 44 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 01-Dec-2003 09:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Trizt):
Yes, most people ignored the noxious comment. That's the proper way really. I usually don't reply to anonymous flamers, will try not to next time.
...another interesting article : Comment 45 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 01-Dec-2003 10:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Trizt):
You can't really have a discussion about STBs without mentioning WebTV:

http://www.webtv.com/pc/whatis_default.aspx)

WebTV was gobbled up by Microsoft and is now called MSN TV. I had a WebTV for a while years back and sort of liked it. It did a lot of stuff, like WWW, email, Usenet. It had some weaknesses. The method of selecting links (a yellow square highlights the link) was a little awkward and cheesy. You couldn't much do computer-type stuff like run apps and play computer-style games.

I think there is a place for an digital convergence device that is more like a computer. IMO when you try to market such a device you should try to replace the computer, and try to replace the stereo system, and try to replace the VCR, and try to replace the telephone. WebTV doesn't really do any of that. WebTV is an Internet device full stop. Pegasos and MorphOS could do better than that.

Web-browsing is a big part of that though. One of the challenges is a satisfying browsing interface. The mouse is better than moving a yellow square around with a remote control or cursor keys. However you can't recline on your couch (or in bed) with a mouse as yet. Maybe a good device would be a specially manufactured key board with a stiff mouse board fixed on the right side. So you could then put this biggish board in your lap and have the mouse there with you.

WebTV doesn't have very good resolution. A Pegasos STB should be targeted to modern screens that have good resolution. HDTV or flatpanel monitors. The screen dimensions don't have to be stupid high, but they should be at least 800 x 600 and the screen should look sharp regardless.

And then there is the matter of video. Right now MorphOS MPlayer plays video from files awesomely, but a satisfactory TV-card implementation isn't available. AmithlonTV for MorphOS is probably the most realistic start point for future development.

Telephone software can happen whenever it happens. There's no way to get everything done at once. One must focus on what is doable. I agree with some people who commented skeptically in this thread that this is all fine talk, but where is the Pegasos 2. There is a real danger in this master planning that negative events overtake us, and then we don't even get to square 1. Look at Amiga Inc. and all their fanciful roadmaps and visions of three years ago, their history is nothing but a wasteland of failed deals and imaginary deals and broken promises and deceptions and swindles. The critics are right about doing what is doable *right now*. So the big thing is to get Peg 2 and MOS 1.5 out the door and then one can properly plan "okay, what can we do with this now, what is the next step towards the digital convergence device."
...another interesting article : Comment 46 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 01-Dec-2003 11:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (bbrv):
Hi Bill Buck and Rachel Velasco

> Come on Oppressor, show your stuff. Make an effort! :-D Post your
ideas here for the rest of us to review and discuss. Are you a man or
an anonymous coward?

Nice try, but in your simple hormone-weeping logic I prefer to stay an
anonymous coward... If the forums were for members only, I'd simply
call it quits and wander away. I'd welcome this to happen. These
forums appear as if there were hundereds of users, while the majority
of the noise is made (in this order) by you, a few of your monkeys and
a few people in opposition to you. I'm telling you a secret: Poking
with a cane in an ant hole isn't enough for making a business.

I'd like to discuss Amiga-related issues here, nostalgic stuff,
advocacy, software and hardware for my Amigas. The succession wars in
this ex-market are a history of constant failure. Companies like
Phase5, VillageTronic and H&P were the ancestors of the split today. I
don't know what happened behind the curtains these days - and I don't
care, as the outcome were completely irrelevant PPC coprocessor
boards, rivaling graphic card systems, questionable use, a plethora
of technical problems and an undeterminable future.

I care for technology, software architecture, integration, building
bridges, making things compatible to each other, and not to constantly
fragment and initiate new splits. That means work, hard work, both
technically and socially. Reloading webpages thirty times an hour and
vomiting marketing babble into forum's just isn't enough :) We had the
Digital Heaven and Amiverse here already. DigiBoxTV doesn't add to the
record, as every self-respecting geek I know has built one already...
You're acting like the revenant of Bill McEwen and Fleecy Moss, just a
bit more bluntly. And you're only the follow-up business failure.
Laaaaaame :)

If you care for MorphOS and the Pegasos technology, simply don't get
on peoples' nerves. Bring on the eats. I repeat myself: You will be
rewarded by this community for your deeds. The IBM thing for example
appears like an important step in the right direction, but you are
missing the point: You'd be called imbeciles if you wouldn't achieve
even that. The logo in itself is of no interest - even for a
non-marketing person it's close to obvious that IBM is happy to spill
out its logo for free if you just sign up. (Hey, btw. Why did this
take that long? Please explain... :)

I really suspect (read: have the subjective, personal opinion) that
you act like on steroids because you have something to hide from the
audience. I suspect it's THE failure already, as you are constantly
burning money and generate close to zilch income, but I'm not the Rich
Woods kind of guy to waste my time stalking prey down physically :)

Keep on, it starts getting interesting to me.
...another interesting article : Comment 47 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 01-Dec-2003 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Daniel Miller):
First of all, I won't comment the last part, as I know that some readers have other opinions and it's a bit off topic IMHO.

Yes, a mouse is a better tool than a remote to move a cursor, but there is another solution that has been around for a quite long time and I think I have seen it on one remote, trackball, it allows you to be in your bed without any hard surface to move around the cursor as you wish. Of course it will take a couple of days to get used to it, but you will master it quite fast. The major problem today is that things are made for right-handed people, at least 10% of the population is left-handed, so the device should be operateble for both left and right handed persons.

WebTV is one of those early tools, kind like my digital-decoder I have for cable-channels, it can do some basic stuff, but really isn't that good at those other things. Here is the flaw that when they was first thougth, there was a limited things you could do, even on a computer, and gui-design/userfriendlyness is something that has come on later years and many tech people haven't studied any form of design, which tends to have lead to products that haven't always been easy to use.

To make a MMBox based on Pegasos/MorphOS will requier a lot of software, today IMHO MorphOS lacks quite much software and the software that can be run, is many time quite outdated (from the 90s or late 80s). There is a great need to get new software and I think if Genesi can afford that, that when people exchanges their Pegasos to a PegasosII, that the Pegasos would be donated to a software project if they agree on make a MorphOS port of it.
I think there is the same problem with the AmigaOne/AmigaOS4, they too will need a hughe amount new updated software.
At the moment it seems that linux would be the OS of choise if using a PPC based platform, as it has more of the needed software.
Some of thise "problems" can be overcome with getting proper drivers for hardware, which in some cases can be a bit difficult, just look at nVidia, they aren't open enough. But "we" will need a TV-capturing card that supports at least MPEG/MPEG2, if possible even DivX in some format, the graphics card have to be able to handle those things too without the help of the CPU. For getting the phone functionality, you need either a modem card of some kind that supports voice or that you have program for phone-over-tcp/ip and national companies providing a such service (I don't think people in general is perpared to get a subscription on a phone service over internet in a country farfar away and which most likely won't provide you with a portal system where people without an internet connection can call you). I think that a MMBox needs to work as a digital-decoder too, I guess this will be a more difficult taks to solve as hardware (haven't seen any such PCI cards) and I guess the digital-tv-channels will be doubtfull against a software solution, as it's easier to hack to see channels for free. Say we have the PCI card, I think it's important that we don't need to have two cables in for see TV/digital-TV, but just one TV-in.

As I pointed out before, I don't think it's good to create a new protocol to get your movies from your computer, here I think it's really important to use what already is there, samba is a quite good option, but I have a samba free environment and would like to see NFS support, nothing prevents to have both.

Neat extra feature culd be dual display, not everyone has space for two devices to display on, so I guess this could be an option, but could be nice to allow people to do more than one thign at the time, say the kids are playing the new Quake4 while dad and mom watches the new Titanic3 movie. This would requier the possibility to split the sound in a good way (maybe use a 7.1 soundsystem, where 2 of the speakers are dedicated to teh secondary monitor).
...another interesting article : Comment 48 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Dec-2003 14:12 GMT
Sounds great.

But, with Sony PS3 and Microsoft neXt box coming down the pipeline (mid-late 2005) doing the same sort of thing what will PegasOS see as their marketing strength/nitche in this segment?
...another interesting article : Comment 49 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 01-Dec-2003 14:14 GMT
I was never convinced by the "home server" idea as it's far too techie for most people, I think that thats changing though and it'll become more like a library where you store your stuff.

On the other hand it was obvious that TVs and PCs will converge but I'm actually becoming less convinced by this now.

We use PCs and TVs in completely different ways and expect different things from them. We expect PCs to crash, but if you bought a TV or DVD player that crashed it's go straight back to the shop.

Both of these have to be solved before any convergence can occur, crashing is reducing but it's not solved yet. The how usage is completely different and it's not clear it can be solved.

The *technology* will merge, but we may end up with two boxes which look and act completely different even though they are the same inside.
...another interesting article : Comment 50 of 56ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 01-Dec-2003 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (minator):
> On the other hand it was obvious that TVs and PCs will converge but I'm
> actually becoming less convinced by this now.

I do disagree here, I think with time people will change habbits, just look how people uses their phones today compared to say mid 80's, nowdays every kid seems to have a cellular, they call each other, send messages, caht and even play games on it.

Even if the user isn't needing the MMBox, the need for it will be created by the manufactors and you will notice that you can't get a standard TV anymore, you are forced to get a MMBox with a special monitor. Just look at the home electronics, try to get a music system, tv, vcr, dvd in black, most of the things are just in silver, this isn't for the customers wants only silver colored electronics (at least I know pritty many who don't want silver), but more a trend that is forced on ous.
Regadles who does somethign, I think they will get though competition from Sony and other big companies who can seel their boxes without profit (this is a lot more difficult for a small company, if they want to stay). Another bad thing I belive that the big companies will do, is to intrioduce new features as slowly as possible, so that they can then make profit when they sell the next generation of MMBoxes.

I do belive we still will continue to have our computers, I see the MMBox more as a replacement of the TV/VCR/TV-game, a new generation of applictaion that the whole family can gather around, but things you want to do more privatly, like chat with your friends, write your reports and so on, you still will do with a computer, or a private console.

This gave me another idea... sooner or later most people will have a cellular with a builtin hand-held that may use bluethoot, what about having a bluethoot network, so when someone gets "home" will be linked to the MMBox, informing about mails that has come, maybe even telling when the kids was home last time, lets you backup data to the MMBox from the phone and so on. In a way the cellular could become the private console for the system, of course it would be a limited console, but you could easilly carry it with you.

In the end we may even end with a cellular which makes everything, with a hologram projector ;)
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