| Posted on 05-Dec-2003 10:25 GMT by Ossranger | 46 comments
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I've registered a project at sourceforge, should be online in a few days. Amiga On Linux, target architecture is PPC only, as this is a modified virtual machine, not an emulator. The target platforms include any PPC machine currently supported by MacOnLinux. Please note that AmigaOS may only be used in compliance with it's EULA on Amiga branded machines, which include any PPC Amiga running linux.
The sourceforge site will be up in a few days pending registration at amigaonlinux.sourceforge.net. All volunteers are welcome, we currently are looking for a few more developers with knowledge of U-Boot and OpenFirmware.
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 1 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by priest on 05-Dec-2003 09:30 GMT | | btw... is there EULA that prevents from running MorphOS on "MOS on Linux" on A1 machines? |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 2 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Matt Parsons on 05-Dec-2003 09:36 GMT | | Amiga On linux.. like AROS Hosted... |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 3 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ossranger on 05-Dec-2003 09:38 GMT | In reply to Comment 1 (priest):
AmigaOnLinux could support Morphos eventually, that's why we need developers knowledgeable in U-Boot and OpenFirmware.
Morphos already runs on the AmigaOne, however. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 4 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Peter Gordon on 05-Dec-2003 10:09 GMT | In reply to Comment 2 (Matt Parsons):
Except with much more software and a more mature file manager ;-) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 5 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Dec-2003 10:22 GMT | In reply to Comment 2 (Matt Parsons):
Dunno, is AOS hosted simular to MacOnLinux?
Cheers |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 6 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Elwood on 05-Dec-2003 10:25 GMT | | And what about a LinuxOnAmiga instead ? I mean you run the OS you prefer first and then the emulations you may need inside it... |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 7 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Matt Parsons on 05-Dec-2003 10:35 GMT | In reply to Comment 5 (Amon_Re):
Well... it's more like Wine actually... |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 8 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ossranger on 05-Dec-2003 10:49 GMT | In reply to Comment 6 (Elwood):
Thought about that as an option as well, someone may do that, but this we have been able to start already. One of our guys suggested that there's a distinct possibility it wouldn't be possible under AOS4, but I'm not sure. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 9 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by takemehomegrandma on 05-Dec-2003 13:03 GMT | | EULA aside, how would you handle "dongles"? |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 10 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kronos on 05-Dec-2003 13:07 GMT | In reply to Comment 4 (Peter Gordon):
I see no reason why AROS-PPC couldn't be made binary-compatible with OS4 (or MorphOS),
just like AROS-68k is with OS3.1. Probraly much easier and no EULA-prob. I also see no
technical problems stopping someone to replace Wanderer with WB4.0 or Ambient. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 11 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Matt Parsons on 05-Dec-2003 13:21 GMT | In reply to Comment 10 (Kronos):
Indeed, WB4.0 and Ambient should run in AROS on the PPC... though both of these file managers may use undocumented/new/custom AmigaOS features which would have to be implemented in AROS, but could be added with little difficulty.
I certainly think it would require less work to get AROS PPC (Native and Hosted) OS4.0 compatible than to try and get OS4.0 running on Linux... |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 12 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by MarkTime on 05-Dec-2003 13:26 GMT | In reply to Comment 8 (Ossranger):
well look at MachTen, to see whats possible, given enough creativity.
This product ran under classic mac os, and was a full bsd unix implementation in a virtual machine.
http://www.tenon.com/products/machten/
but he may have meant, not that it was impossible, but only impractical to do a quick port of the existing MOL product. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 13 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kjetil on 05-Dec-2003 13:36 GMT | In reply to Comment 7 (Matt Parsons):
Are you shore you know what you are answering?
His question where AOS not AROS!!
You can’t make it transparent as WINE, due to not having the source code of ExecSG,
Then again is probably likely you can replace ExecSG whit a hacked up AROS kernel made to run OS4.0 bins, how ever that’s a different ball game all to getter,
The deferens as I se it, WINE emulates the Windows API by using local Linux library’s, how ever most emulators just replacement drivers to emulate the hardware recourses (HAL drivers or hardware), that are not there, the OS level of integration is totally different, the first versions of AROS used the same gadgets and windows whit in Xfree86 as Linux and there for where closer to what WINE is, how ever as AROS grow the API emulation changed to more desktop based emulations, the complexity of AROS grow away from the Linux interface, by providing it self whit window management, and screen management etc, and by not relaying of the underling OS in the same degree. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 14 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Matt Parsons on 05-Dec-2003 13:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 13 (Kjetil):
Yes, that's right.... woooosh ;-) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 15 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kjetil on 05-Dec-2003 21:39 GMT | In reply to Comment 11 (Matt Parsons):
Well some of the new features are easy to implement, other are not automatic stack enlargement (you might find programs expecting this feature in the future), roadshow TCP/IP stack is basically a full BSD implementation whit out IPv6 implementation (how ever having a binary compatible AROS might make it work whit out change), memory protection on task level, and request for memory protected memory can be rerouted to shared memory like in the past (some programs like emulator might not like this, "68k JIT"), then again MOS have don it in other way whit out using the PowerPPC EMU to detect unconverted memory sub routines, new implementation of the PPC api (functions tables) need to be implemented to getter whit symbolic lookups.
Thats should make AROS run about every thing AOS4.0, for a finishing touch clean up dos.library and other none AmigaOS clean Aros implementations,
Some programs in the future might expect to find snap drivers, to boost gfx access, an api emulation of snap might be needed,
AROS will need to support WUP and PUP bin's, and new MOS extensions to the API whit out breaking comparability to AmigaOS4.0, it might requires that you have a new set of JMP tables for library's for MOS bindery's one way to slov the problem is a BOX implementation or by swapping the library tables out when you switch task, how ever this might requirer replacement library's for the ones that break, then there is the QBOX and quark that might need to implemented as a API emulation layer as well,
AOS4.0,68k,PUP,WUP,MOS,AROS API's
And I think that task is harder to implement then say; taking MacOnLinux remove the hardware emulation that are not used on AmigaOne, take some AROS and Linux drivers and write them for the AmigaOS4.0 HAL, add virtual uboot loader, and some hardware emulation for what ever you can't use in MacOnLinux,
basically write about 8 HAL drivers (just for speed), write hardware emulation for via(sound), Articia S (par,ser,floppydisk,ATA,USB,AGP,PCI), 3COM (ethernet), rearrange memory pages if needed, exchange the bootloader code, some of the hardware emulation might not be need to run AmigaOS4.0 like sound,ser,par,eth,floppydisk, you probably can do whit a dummy hardware emulation (report hardware that are not there, then put the emulation whit inn the HAL drivers only), |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 16 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by xaffod on 05-Dec-2003 21:45 GMT | In reply to Comment 15 (Kjetil):
I am afraid that you have overlooked the easiest option to implement: run OS4 on an AmigaOne. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 17 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kjetil on 05-Dec-2003 21:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 16 (xaffod):
Well I have implemented almost that one all ready... just need the OS :) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 18 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by James Carroll on 05-Dec-2003 22:09 GMT | | How would this be different to running UAE? |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 19 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Darth_X on 05-Dec-2003 22:23 GMT | | I think people will most likely choose to run AROS over this if there's an EULA. I thought one of the main points of running Linux was to get away from Microsoft inspired EULA's??? |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 20 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kjetil on 05-Dec-2003 23:06 GMT | In reply to Comment 19 (Darth_X):
Silly rabbit, you need to require AOS4.0 install CD and it fall under the AmigaOS4.0 EULA not the Linux EULA's any way there is many type of EULA's for different things, then again you probably know that.
So in other words to make AmigaOnLinux legally requires it to inherit the EULA of AmigaOS4.0 or else if it breaks the AmigaOS4.0 EULA then developers of AmigaOnLinux will be sticky situations, so the legal actions can be safely moved away from the developers over to the users in case of violating the original EULA. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 21 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kjetil on 05-Dec-2003 23:09 GMT | In reply to Comment 18 (James Carroll):
The access to PPC bins and the speed benefits of not emulation the PPC cpu, and the benefits of the AmigaOS4.0 HAL, previously you needed to emulate x number chips now you basically just need to replace the drivers, you get better performance this way, it's like AGA vs P96 under UAE, the draw backs is not having the chipsett emulations for comparability for 68k programs the same as if you used AmigaOS4.0 by it self. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 22 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Unlaud on 06-Dec-2003 02:16 GMT | In reply to Comment 19 (Darth_X):
> I think people will most likely choose to run AROS over this if there's an EULA.
MacOS has a EULA too, infact it's the same condition Amiga has in theirs, yet AmigaOne owners are running MacOS in violation of it's EULA.
If they ran AmigaOS on AmigaOnLinux on an A1, they wouldn't be violating the AmigaOS EULA, because they would be running it on Amiga Branded Machines.
> I thought one of the main points of running Linux was to get away from Microsoft inspired EULA's???
Before you throw stones at MacOS's EULA's, realise AmigaOS's EULA is the same. Both AmigaOS, and MacOS, may only be run on licensed hardware according to their EULA's. Actually, Microsoft requires no such thing. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 23 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Unlaud on 06-Dec-2003 02:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (Unlaud):
...however if someone ran AmigaOS4 on AmigaOnLinux on a Pegasos or Mac with LinuxPPC (perfectly possible) then it would be a violation of the EULA of AmigaOS... the same way people who are running MacOS on MacOnLinux on an AmigaOne are violating Apples EULA. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 24 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by MarkTime on 06-Dec-2003 05:01 GMT | In reply to Comment 23 (Unlaud):
Unlaud,
I hate to say, but the vast majority of this community, including the business leaders in this community, don't care about violating the Mac OS EULA.
And, by the same token, we can absolutely expect the OS 4 and (if there is one) MorphOS eula to be broken wholesale.
Even Amiga.org and amigaworld.net, who in theory will delete pirate posts, will not delete any posts, and there have been many, about violating the Mac OS Eula. They even post links to websites and post news articles from well known pirates.
I'm acting like you are new, and maybe you are, or maybe I just don't know your nickname, but I have been taking people to task on this point for a couple years now, but there has been only a smattering of support.
Fact is, this goes all the way UP, and both camps are incredibly, in agreement, in support of piracy. They are taking the extremely dubious, and untenable position, that only their software should not be pirated.
I find it astonishing, but it, in part goes back to the history of the Amiga, and the excitement over the early mac emulators (which were perfectly legal, because the old methodology of using ROM's and copy protections is far different from the new methodology of EULA's)...but anyway, that early, very legal community, of mac emulating enthusiasts, intends to continue on, even though they are now in violation of the law. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 25 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by ehaines on 06-Dec-2003 06:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 24 (MarkTime):
> I find it astonishing, but it, in part goes back to the history of the Amiga, and the excitement over the early mac emulators
> (which were perfectly legal, because the old methodology of using ROM's and copy protections is far different from the new
> methodology of EULA's)...but anyway, that early, very legal community, of mac emulating enthusiasts, intends to continue on,
> even though they are now in violation of the law.
You total fool, there is no violation of the LAW. EULA is not law, as everybody
but you seems to know. It was always against the MacOS EULA to run it on non-Mac
hardware, anyway, so that makes you either a hypocrite or ignorant. In fact the
early Mac emulation community was far more likely to be in actual violation of the
law--NOT the EULA crap you seem so worshipful of--because they were likely pirating
copies of Mac ROMs.
Nowadays the "ROM" is just a file that's part of the OS, so as long as you buy it,
there is no piracy involved at all. Breaking a EULA isn't "piracy" no matter how
hard you whine. Why don't you go after everybody who trades used software on eBay
and so forth? That's just as much in violation of the typical EULA, and just as
rightly ignored, in favor of the law.
AmigaOS4, not being done, has no end user license agreement yet, so this is
speculation anyway, based on OS3.9 I assume. The main difference between it
and MacOS is that MacOS is a separate product that you can buy for whatever
purpose you choose, according to the law. (Which takes precedence over
EULAs...companies cannot write law.) AmigaOS4 will apparently only be
available bundled. If it was a separate product, then yes, anyone could
legitimately buy a copy and run it on whatever hardware they wanted to,
according to the law, which you seem to have no respect for. But being
bundled, that makes it different...how would you legitimately get a copy,
aside from buying an AmigaOne?
"CyberstormPPC version," I hear someone say. I'm assuming that will have
enough technical differences so that running it on other hardware wouldn't
be feasible, but who knows.... |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 26 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Don Cox on 06-Dec-2003 08:59 GMT | In reply to Comment 3 (Ossranger):
"Morphos already runs on the AmigaOne, however."
Not on an unmodified AmigaOne, surely? |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 27 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by itix on 06-Dec-2003 11:16 GMT | In reply to Comment 24 (MarkTime):
However, "breaking" EULA is perfectly legal in many countries. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 28 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by itix on 06-Dec-2003 11:29 GMT | In reply to Comment 27 (itix):
And even if EULA is considered valid it is just a contract between customer and company.If the customer breaks MacOS EULA it is a problem between the customer and Apple company. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 29 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Álmos Rajnai on 06-Dec-2003 14:33 GMT | Ossranger: ahhha! This IS what you had talked about... ;)
Well, I don't see any point of running AOS4 under the control of Linux. What would it be use for? (Except explicitly violating the restriction what is binding it to a specific hardware... What was the point of MacOnLinux also, IMHO...)
Why would I run Linux on my A1 and emulate AOS4, when I could run it w/o this API wrapper? (It wouldn't help if the apps are crashing eg., I should certainly "reboot" the wrapper also... The only what I could get is the loss of resources what Linux eats up for itself.) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 30 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by itix on 06-Dec-2003 14:59 GMT | In reply to Comment 29 (Álmos Rajnai):
With this you could run *both* Mozilla and OS4 native apps simultaneously. Not that bad idea IMO. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 31 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 06-Dec-2003 15:12 GMT | In reply to Comment 30 (itix):
what os 4.0 native Apps? |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 32 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by itix on 06-Dec-2003 16:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 31 (Anonymous):
Erm.. uhm.. well... yeah ! |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 33 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by JoannaK on 06-Dec-2003 17:54 GMT | In reply to Comment 32 (itix):
Anyhow.. this is academic.. this ain't likely to happen. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 34 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Álmos Rajnai on 06-Dec-2003 19:42 GMT | In reply to Comment 30 (itix):
And you consider this is the only way that Mozilla could run together with AOS4 apps? :) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 35 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 06-Dec-2003 23:49 GMT | In reply to Comment 33 (JoannaK):
What, OS4 native apps? I hear that crow tastes pretty nice with some parmesan cheese sprinkled on it... |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 36 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by JoannaK on 07-Dec-2003 09:48 GMT | In reply to Comment 35 (Anonymous):
Sorry my reply was too unclear... I was saying that this Amiga-on-Linux ain't likely to happen. At least on the same scale that Mac-on-Linux is. Having PPC-native AmigaOS4 running on PPC_linux machines (Macs + Pegasos) would ruin Amiga-one markets and therefore I suspect that Eyetech (and Hyperion as a their parner) are going to be strictly against it. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 37 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by TeVoyAPipear on 07-Dec-2003 21:35 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (JoannaK):
Do not worry. Neither AOS4 nor MOS are true Amiga operating systems. Both are the same crap. :-) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 38 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 08-Dec-2003 07:54 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (JoannaK):
I think you're right about that. Apple has a EULA that forbids it, but as many have said, EULAs are kinda worthless. That's why the "dongle rom" is in there :) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 39 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Dec-2003 15:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 24 (MarkTime):
Intresting point, but i wonder, does an EULA have any legal value?
If i buy MacOSX, and i run it on, lets say, an A1 with LinuxPPC, could they sue me & win? After all, i did buy a licence.
Or lets say i have a broken down mac, an i entitled to use that machines software on another, non apple machine?
what about fair use?
Cheers |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 40 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by ehaines on 08-Dec-2003 16:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 39 (Amon_Re):
> Intresting point, but i wonder, does an EULA have any legal value?
Well:
> what about fair use?
Exactly. EULAs can't supercede law, despite MarkTime's bizarre fetish.
Maybe I should write a EULA stating that users of this message must send me
US$10,000. :) That's as likely to end up in court when you don't send me
the money as someone running MacOS on a Pegasos or whatever. The most Apple
can do is not support you if something goes wrong. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 41 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Dec-2003 18:56 GMT | In reply to Comment 40 (ehaines):
That's what i tought too.
Now, as for AmigaOnLinux, i do like the idea, i think i've even talked about this with the Friedens, as this would be a means to get quite close to a portable Amiga, it would be even cooler if AOL (heh) would be a stand alone thingy without depending on a full Linux install, abit like Amithlon
Cheers |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 42 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Coder on 08-Dec-2003 22:46 GMT | In reply to Comment 41 (Amon_Re):
@Amon_Re
>it would be even cooler if AOL (heh) would be a stand alone thingy without >depending on a full Linux install, abit like Amithlon
Good point. You see a lot of people cannot be bothered by installing Linux to run it. Like with MOL. So the Amithlon concept is much better. Install it next to MorphOS and there you go.
Coder |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 43 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by JoannaK on 08-Dec-2003 23:06 GMT | In reply to Comment 42 (Coder):
This lisencing will be hot potato... At the moment OS4 can only be used on machines approved by AmigaInc. And even though I see some people willing use it on Laptop-Macs I see no way in hell that Apple ever would even consider wasting their time/effort to some 'Another OS Approval'... Especially if it would require spending some money (to this magical Dongle).
So only way t make it happen at all is by Ainc(et others) to allow people to use OS4 (with AOL) on unlicensed machines. And it would require them to open sales of OS no non-dongled machines, which is totally against their current policy. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 44 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Álmos Rajnai on 09-Dec-2003 07:22 GMT | In reply to Comment 43 (JoannaK):
JohannaK: you probably understand the point of getting rid of piracy. The only way how you can make sure your software won't be pirated if you bind it to a specific hardware.
Because the A1 comes with the licence of AOS4, there is no point in pirating AOS4. (Just like Apple does with Mac.) CSPPC/BPPC is a different story, those versions are necessary for obvious reasons.
Just ask MOS people: why do they not intending to support A1... :)
They have the VERY same policy (because of the economic background) for MOS, like Amiga Inc. for AOS4. They just keep it for themselves and did not come up with the hardware binding solution. Both OS's nailed to the appropiate HW, because of the missing HW drivers anyway. |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 45 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Álmos Rajnai on 09-Dec-2003 07:24 GMT | In reply to Comment 43 (JoannaK):
JoannaK: ah, sorry, I didn't notice that you don't have an "h" in your nick... :) |
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| AmigaOnLinux : Comment 46 of 46 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by BrianK on 09-Dec-2003 13:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 1 (priest):
' is there EULA that prevents from running MorphOS on "MOS on Linux" on A1 machines' -- EULA's really can't prevent this.
In the USA, at least, once you buy something it's yours. Let's say I buy a A1 machine. The end user owns the hardware. They can do what they will with the hardware such as run any OS on it. Now if the A1 EULA says only AOS is allowed, what this really means is any support had for the A1 is only done on AOS they won't support questions or issues on another OS. Thus, if you suspect a problem with the A1 hardware you'll have to install AOS and go through their hoops to determine the true nature of the problem. Then, most likely, they'll replace/repair the hardware.
If the other OS, say MacOS, limits itself to Mac only hardware and you install it on the A1. Apple won't support you with questions or issues associated with it.
EULA's can't, as far as I know, prevent you from doing what you will with anything. However, what it does do is state if you do what you will and it's outside the scope/expecation it ends support or relations with that vendor. |
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